You can't ban evil

[DWC]

This young lady hits the nail on the head, telling a side of the gun control issue that most have never thought about. Take a couple minutes to listen to what a very bright young black woman has learned.

Her analysis of the basis for our Constitutional right to bear arms is the best I have heard - it makes too much sense to come from one of our politicians.

[slackmaster]

1. Well, you CAN ban it but that won't make it go away

Just to split hairs.

[spin]

2. The young lady makes a lot of sense. (n/t)

[leveymg]

3. You can make it more difficult to realize, particularly on the spur of the moment.

Most gun killings are impulsive acts committed in emotional situations between people who know each other. That's a major reason you don't want more armed people walking and driving around.

[GreenStormCloud]

8. Most killers have prior criminal records.

Yes, most killers do know their victims. Bear in mind that Mafia members know each other, thieves know their fences, drug dealers know each other and their customers and suppliers, gang membesr know each other, pimps know their hookers and their johns - get the idea?

Further, well over half of murder victims are themselves criminals.

Unless you hang out with violent criminals, you are completely safe if your friends and family have guns.

That goes for gun accidents too. Criminals also have the most gun accidents. Being careless is part of the violent criminal lifestyle.

[samsingh]

11. not even close. how about the 4 year old who shot himself with his father's gun

[gejohnston]

14. he said most, not all.

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:49 PM - Edit history (1)

According to the CDC there were 36 unintentional firearms deaths for ages 0-9 in 2010.

[Robb]

15. What planet do you live on where you believe that number is true?

It's like the NRA playbook in here. Where did the progressives go?

[gejohnston]

16. WISQARS

unless the CDC is full of NRA shills.........................

As for what planet I live on, I live on a planet where people tend to think that empirical data is more important than blind ideology. The sign said "center to left Democrats welcome"

[Robb]

21. Every progressive on the planet knows the CDC have been sabotaged by gun nuts.

Or do you never venture out from the Progressive Gun Enthusiast(tm) forum?

And, as your buddy below has shown, you even lie about your own cooked statistics. Can you not keep your numbers straight, or is the drive to make things up so strong you can't resist?

[gejohnston]

23. it has?

it is just banned from lobbying.
Yeah I read different ones and I post if I have something to say. Most of the time I don't anything to add.

No I didn't. He used the chart, I used the search function that gave me the specific number. A lie is an intentionally telling an untruth.
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/index.html Try it yourself for using the parameters I mentioned above.

Can you not keep your numbers straight, or is the drive to make things up so strong you can't resist?

do you have a valid point to make or just feeling snarky today?

[Robb]

27. Calling out right-wing bullshit is not "snark."

It's been the mission of DU since 2001.

Why do you feign ignorance about how many kids actually die for your little hobby?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

29. re: "Calling out right-wing bullshit is not "snark.""

Well that's true. I applaud calling out BS regardless of the source which is why I'm calling out your mischaracterization of CDC data as "right-wing bullshit".

Are you really taking issue with the veracity of the data published by the CDC?

[Robb]

32. Your "position" is either false for effect, or genuinely disgusting. Good lord.

It's like watching the admitted right-wing learn how to spell "Benghazi." I haven't seen such strained effort since "Chappaquiddick."

You expect us to believe everyone in this forum missed the widely reported and discussed on DU issue concerning how CDC research has been squelched by the gun lobby.

You expect us to believe that suddenly you all cling to the CDC's numbers as gospel, in all innocence?

You expect us to believe you read neither newspapers nor the internet, outside of this forum and whatever other gun-cuddling glib sociopath websites you frequent.

Meanwhile, you attempt to downplay and cheapen the lost lives of children with wholly disingenuous cherry-picking. "Oh, look, it's only 36 killed all year. I mean accidentally, under age 9."

I've been compiling shootings for DU for several weeks now, up to age 16. Here's the past four, one month, for 9 and under.

• A 9 year-old boy was shot while playing with an unattended handgun.

• A 5 year-old boy shot himself while playing with an unattended gun.

• A 2 year-old boy shot himself in the face with a gun taken from his mother's purse.

• A 1 year-old child was shot by a stray bullet inside his home.

• A 4 year-old girl was shot by a family member.

• A 3 year-old boy was accidentally shot inside his home.

• A 4 year-old girl shot herself with an unattended handgun.

• A 3 year-old boy was shot inside his apartment.

• A 5 year-old boy was accidentally shot by his 11 year-old brother.

• A 4 year-old girl shot herself with an unattended handgun.

• A 4 year-old boy shot himself with an unattended handgun.

• A 3 year-old boy was shot accidentally by his mother's boyfriend.

• A 3 year-old boy shot himself in the head with an unattended pink handgun.

• A 3 year-old boy was accidentally shot in his apartment.

• A 5 year-old girl was accidentally shot while in her home.

• A 3 year-old boy shot himself with his father's unattended pistol.

• A toddler of unspecified age shot himself with an unattended handgun.

Now you expect us to believe you actually think 17 x 12 = 36.

Actually, you might. I take that last one back.

Regardless, it is a mystery to me why admin are choosing to kick the Insane Gun Posse off the island one by one, rather than as a group. I can only assume it's meant as a team-building exercise for the remainder of DU.

[samsingh]

33. thank you Robb.

[gejohnston]

41. how many are separate cases?

two are the same case. One talks about the shooting, the other mentions the parent being charged with having an unlicesenced and unregistered gun in NYC.
http://longisland.news12.com/news/denny-pantoja-father-of-child-who-shot-himself-while-playing-with-his-gun-facing-charges-1.4698380?qr=1
http://longisland.news12.com/news/5-year-old-boy-accidentally-shot-by-11-year-old-brother-1.4692315?qr=1

[Robb]

44. Wow. I finally duplicated one.

You accused me of doing that last month, quickly backtracked when it was obvious you were wrong.

But I finally duplicated one. Tough not to do with dozens of children under 16 killed every week. I have to internalize their stories to avoid multiple coverage, but this one got by me.

My point however remains, "Chappaquiddick." You think 16 x 12 = 36?

[gejohnston]

45. I did?

I'm sure there are more. We were talking about accidents, not murders.

What about Chappaquiddick? I think you have me confused with someone else.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

51. Implying that I somehow feel...

...any number children is "acceptable" is completely wrong. There is no "suddenly" about my accepting CDC's numbers. I've always trusted the CDC to keep records. Here's where those who don't post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1135

I've read about CDC research being squelched by the gun lobby. No research is required to keep records.

I read a few of the stories to which you've provided links. I haven't come across one where the child shot actually died. The stats I quoted were for those killed by accident by a firearm. On rechecking the same CDC report, Table 10 also lists that there are 380 instances of those under 15 being injured by a firearm. (My math says 17 x 12 = 204 which looks low according to the CDC.)

Add 380 injured to the 62 homicides and the 81 who committed suicide with a firearm, all under 15, and you get 523.

If you have a more trustworthy source please feel free to provide that data.


:my token snark: Please provide data in pdf or plain text format, crayon not welcome. :snark off:

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

24. You don't seem to understand

Nothing I posted in #17 in any way contradicts what is in #14.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

17. CDC stats with links:

Accidental discharge of firearms (W32-W34) by age
Total: 606
<1: -
1-4: 25
5-14: 37
15-24: 145
25-34: 107
35-44: 91
45-54: 89
55-64: 50
65-74: 38
75-84: 19
85&over: 5
none not stated
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/deaths_2010_release.pdf

[AnotherMcIntosh]

28. You are relying upon facts? That has the potential to slow things down.

Those who otherwise post snarks can do so much quicker.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

26. Bingo! It seems that you are the first one in this thread to use the magic letters "NRA."

[Eleanors38]

57. Before you blast off into space, visit the National Safety Council, it's less expensive.

[samsingh]

18. why is 'most' acceptable?

[GreenStormCloud]

31. I am talking about murderers, not kids that have accidents.

Almost all murderers have prior criminal records. Please note that "almost" does not mean "all". There are people who do commit murder as their first serious criminal offense, but they are rare.

[samsingh]

34. it doesn't seem that the last couple of massacres were done by people with criminal records

just some people who had an unhealthy interest in owning and firing a lot of guns.

[GreenStormCloud]

38. I said "almost" not "all".

So you can put your strawman back in the barn. Of the thousands of murders, you will find that almost all of them are by people with criminal records. Rampage murderers get a lot of attention, but they are a tiny fraction of the total murders.

[samsingh]

39. define 'tiny'

[GreenStormCloud]

47. In this case, less than 1%

Annually, rampage killers account for well less than 1% of murders. We can have more effect by concentrating of keeping guns out of the hands of people with violent criminals records.

[samsingh]

50. that's still a lot of people

[bowens43]

4. cant ban evil but we can ban guns and amnmunition....

the 'constitutional' right to bear arms outside the construct of a well regulated militia is a myth perpetrated by the death merchants and the evil minions....

[GreenStormCloud]

9. That horse is dead. You can quit beating it. N/T

[DonP]

30. I believe the "militia" dead horse is buried next to the "seperate but equal" dead horse

SCOTUS finally drove a stake through both of their hearts.

Anyway, both "arguments" have about the same level of validity.

[samsingh]

35. the scotus that selected bush as president

they have no credibility

[GreenStormCloud]

40. They still have the final decision on the law.

We may not like some of their decisions but that doesn't mean the we get to ignore the ones we don't like. By the Constitution, they have credibility.

[samsingh]

42. it doesn't make if just and it can be changed by a future court

[GreenStormCloud]

48. For now, IT IS THE LAW. N/T

[samsingh]

49. ok then

[samsingh]

12. you are absolutely right

[SecularMotion]

5. She is concerned about the nations shift away from conservative values and constitutional principles

She is concerned about the nations shift away from conservative values and constitutional principles. She loves the Lord, her family, America and scotch. She really loves scotch a lot.

http://www.youtube.com/user/kiradavis422?feature=watch

[samsingh]

13. she's a fool and a tool of the gun manufacturers

[Tuesday Afternoon]

55. why don't you go post this on the YouTube page and tell her straight to her face --

so to speak.

[kudzu22]

6. +1000

I wish I could explain it so well.

[jmg257]

7. Wow - a "conservative patriot ex-socialist liberal" getting applause on DU..only in Guns of course.

"This is the official Facebook page for Kira Davis- conservative, patriot, ex-socialist liberal. Welcome to the Dark Side. We have cookies."


You gunners would likely love to hear more, so join her: "Kira also writes for /conservativedailynews.com/ and /allpatriotsmedia.com/"

Sure you'll feel right at home!

Edit remove direct links for conservative sources

[GreenStormCloud]

10. We could never win a revolution against our government.

To win a war, you must be able to shoot, move, and communicate.

Shooting uses up tons of ammo and without resupply we would quickly be out of ammo. Forget going to the gun store to buy more ammo for the revolution. Ignore the Red Dawn fantasy of using captured gov't ammo - that doesn't work in real life, real combat.

Movement could be tracked by drones.

Communications would have to be old fashioned messenger. If we tried to use electronic comm, the gov't would know about it instantly.

Further, the gov't is experimenting with MAVs (Micro Air Vehicles) that are the size of birds and bugs and look like birds and bugs. An area can be saturated with them by air drop and they would see and hear everything in the area. Computers would listen for key words. Some of the bugs would have small explosive charges that could be detonated on the back of your neck.

Afghanistan and Pakistan are testing grounds for some of this new stuff.

[samsingh]

19. i think the drones, attack helicopters, tanks, airforce, aircraft terror, spy agencies

pretty much mean that we can't fight the government through arms.

however, interestingly, a tyranical government can create a plutocracy (almost an authoritarian state) by sowing seeds of fear and doubt. By making the population simplistic and naive, the government can use those attributes to keep making lots of money and retaining power.

that's what the repugs do through the nra.

[gejohnston]

22. depends on how well the guerrillas interdict logistical support

to the bases. If the "tank farms" are destroyed, the planes are grounded even faster.

By making the population simplistic and naive, the government can use those attributes to keep making lots of money and retaining power.

the plutocrats use the media

[samsingh]

37. like fox

[gejohnston]

43. and CNN

the difference is CNN and the networks are sensationalist with their own corporate bias and low journalism standards. Fox is more obvious.

[samsingh]

46. fox is beyond abvious - they are a vile disinformation service that exists

to promote the rightwing agenda at ALL costs

[samsingh]

20. unfortunately you can't ban her stupidity either.

[DWC]

25. What ever she may be

"stupid" is not one of them. Blind Ideologue is not one of them either but a moniker that seems to fit you quite well.

Semper Fi,

[samsingh]

36. nope, i care about people and facts

there are several listed in this thread which i don't see anyone being able to deny, just distort.

she is a stupid.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. yeah, I see two.

[nonoyes]

52. This is the same logic that says anyone should be able to

drive a car at whatever speed they wish to drive it, because regulations like speed limits are not 100% effective.

Either one wishes for a nation with unlimited freedoms or one uses rational decision-making, based upon the best facts available, about how to regulate freedoms in a reasonable fashion.

No one objects to a speed limit of 30MPH in a densly populated area; after all, we are all pedestrians at some times in those areas.

She is also ill-informed:

“The Second Amendment was not enacted to provide a check on government tyranny; rather, it was written to assure the Southern states that Congress would not undermine the slave system by using its newly acquired constitutional authority over the militia to disarm the state militia and thereby destroy the South’s principal instrument of slave control” — professor Carl T. Bogus, Roger Williams University Law School, in his extraordinary thesis, “The Hidden History of the Second Amendment.”

“Well-regulated militias” referred to state militias used to suppress slave rebellions. These slave patrols were armed white men who made regular rounds, making sure blacks weren’t wandering where they didn’t belong, gathering in groups or engaging in other suspicious activity.

“Equally important,” said Bogus, “was the demonstration of constant vigilance and armed force. The basic strategy was to ensure and impress upon the slaves that whites were armed, watchful and ready to respond to insurrectionist activity at all times. The state required white men and female plantation owners to participate in patrols and to provide their own arms and equipment.”

“In the South, therefore, the patrols and the militia were largely synonymous …The militia was the first and last protection from the omnipresent threat of slave insurrection of vengeance.”

http://www.jdnews.com/opinion/letters/second-amendment-had-ties-to-slavery-1.88528

[Tuesday Afternoon]

54. it is illegal to fire off guns within the city limits where I live. I did not hear her advocating

doing anything illegal ... did you? can you tell me at what stop in the video she did? thanks.

[nonoyes]

56. I think you missed the analogy completely, but I'm not surprised.

I didn't state it well.

I was talking about how much of a target we are when guns remain unreguated the way cars and driving is regulated.

Cars and driving regulations are not perfect, and SOME people die with stupid and drunk drivers, but consider the alternative, anyone can drive in any condition with any drug or alcohol in their body, at any speed, anywhere. Result: more people dead.

[kudzu22]

58. To continue the analogy

the other side should then advocate a law making it illegal to own a car capable of traveling faster than 30 MPH. Right? Nobody needs to go 65 MPH to get to the grocery store.

The analogy falls apart when it equates ownership of an item with misuse of that item.

[oneshooter]

59. It is easy to ban anything...............It's the enforcement that is difficult.

If not impossable.