LGBT
Related: About this forumThe shocking truth about religious ‘gay cure’ therapy by someone who failed to turn straight
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/02/05/the-shocking-truth-about-religious-gay-cure-therapy-by-someone-who-failed-to-turn-straight/Photo Credit: © Katja Heinemann/Aurora Select, courtesy of the Southern Poverty Law Center
Last month, a state funded Jewish school in North London, JFS, was accused by the Jewish Chronicle of showing students the logo and central message of JONAH, a so called gay cure group and implicitly portrayed it as something they should explore if they thought they might be gay. The chief rabbi of Amsterdam was suspended from his position after he signed a document alleging homosexuality could be modified and healed. And Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, backed a Christian gay cure therapist struck off by her professional body. But very little has been written about what actually happens at so called reparative therapy. Chaim Levin enrolled on a Jewish scheme to try to turn himself straight. This is his story.
I grew up in a traditional Jewish family in Crown Heights. I love my mother, my father and my family. I had always felt different and was the subject of relentless bullying by other boys for seeming gay. When I was 17 I confided to a friend that I was attracted to men and not sexually attracted to women at all. When it came out, I was thrown out of yeshiva (Jewish religious school). For the longest time I felt so alone because I truly believed that I was the only person battling this secret war. My older siblings were getting married and having kids, and all I ever wanted was to be a part of the beautiful world my parents had raised me in. My dream was to marry a woman and live the life my family hoped and dreamed for me. I would never have chosen to be gay; I could not imagine anyone growing up in the Orthodox world who would choose to be someone who doesnt fit into the values and norms of everyone around them.
So do I think that I was born gay? I dont know and I am not sure how important that is. What is important is that it certainly is not something that I chose or had anything to do with. And I felt immense pressure to somehow change who I was.
After much time and research I found a well-known organisation that specialised in reparative therapy. This organisation had endorsements from a wide range of rabbis and I was sure that it was the answer to all my problems. The organisations executive director told me that he believes everyone can change if they simply put in the hard work. I would have done anything to change, and this message was just the hope I was looking for. I spent two years attending every group meeting, weekend, and individual life coaching sessions they offered. My parents and I paid thousands of dollars. Every day, every session, I was working and waiting to feel a shift in my desires or experience authentic change. That moment never came. I didnt change, I never developed any sexual desire for women, and never stopped being attracted to men. Instead, I only felt more and more helpless because I wasnt changing. The organisation and its staff taught us that change only comes to those who truly want it and are willing to put in the work. So if I wasnt changing, I was seen as someone who either really didnt sincerely want it, or would not put in the necessary work. In other words, there was no one to blame but myself.
MarkCharles
(2,261 posts)deny the obvious, make it go away, perpetuate a straight male dominant mythology for all of time.
Most religions really don't really like diversity, it dilutes their powers over the masses.
It's a shame this kind of "repairative therapy" is associated with any religion, but, then again, it sort of makes sense that it is associated with those who stand in the way of science and the pursuit of truth.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)In future, target your ire directly at those responsible, not everyone who may kinda sort of maybe believe like them...or not.
This was ONE Jewish school in North London, I'd hardly blame all Jews for their actions, let alone all religion.
I don't believe or support "gay cure therapy" either, it's obviously a crock.
Why is it ok to smear with a wide brush when religion is the subject?
Oh well, prejudice can't be explained, so never mind....
izquierdista
(11,689 posts)What religions ALL have in common is a belief that knowledge is revealed (by a deity or authority figure), not learned by your own efforts. Take the question "why are some people gay?" The religious answer would be to go to the revealed wisdom (in this case Leviticus) where it says that to lie with another man would be an abomination and use that to guide your thinking. The scientific answer only comes after much more questioning and observation: are humans the only species to evidence homosexuality? Is it correlated with race, ethnicity, birth order, astrological sign, diet during the mother's pregnancy, sunspots, background radiation, being left-handed, lack of a father figure? Is there a genetic component? Is there an environmental component? Does it change over time? Can heterosexuals become homosexual and vice versa, or is there a third category that might be designated ambisexual? If it can change, what are the causal factors? What is the evolutionary advantage to homosexuality? Is it contagious? Scientists use math and statistics to quantify the answers to questions like these; religion has no use for mathematics as there is just a right and a wrong, no middle ground.
See, with religion, the answer is known by doctrine and revealed wisdom beforehand, and then what must be done is to fit the world to that view. Science takes the novel approach that ideas should be tailored to fit the world that is observed. I think if you divide your category of "all Jews" into very religious and non-religious, you will find that the former group is the one that is promoting the gay cure crock -- because of what their revealed wisdom tells them to do. And among the latter group, you will find scientists who are actually concerned with finding out what is true. Some of them might even be studying prejudice and how it can be explained.
MarkCharles
(2,261 posts)someone locked in religious doctrine learn what the open-minded, scientific approach would be to this phenomenon and quite common human and animal experience we call "gay".
One would expect people of the Jewish faith, leaders of that faith, to have learned more from the experience of the 20th century and the treatment of Jews and homosexuals in Europe for too too many years. But no, that faith, like so many others, insists upon a perpetuation of a myth regarding gay people, rather than an open-minded approach and a philosophy of acceptance and rational understanding.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Apparently you can't make distinction between different groups and beliefs, so you just group them all together and judge them the same.
A shame really when you consider some Christian groups really try to live up to Christ's teachings and not judge people, gay or otherwise, and yet you group them all together regardless.
Oh, and Leviticus is Old Testament and carries neither the authority to over turn the 10 Commandments, #2 Love thy neighbor as thyself, Nor anything Christ preached.
Anyone who believes Leviticus reigns supreme is a Levitican, NOT Christian.
izquierdista
(11,689 posts)I believe the old fat fuck used to rail about that section in Leviticus to support his gay bashing, all the while wearing fabric blends and shoveling his face with shrimp and pork. I'll stand by my observation that the more rational someone is, the less religious they are.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)I've not seen all that much rationality from the human race, regardless of the amount of religion or lack of the same they show.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)if they call themselves christian and they do and the preach homophobia, i get a right to judge them.
religion is very much a choice, and people who choose to remain in bigoted religions make that choice.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)Religion is also very different among different groups and sects, blending them all together like they are the same is an act of blindness.
Christ never said to hate homosexuals or anyone, nothing bigoted in that. So why do you make that presumption?
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)dickthegrouch
(3,174 posts)"There is no try: 'do' or 'do not'". Yoda from Star Wars
KKKristianity has been the root of all evil in my life and many millions of others' lives. We have a right to paint them all with the same brush when there are so few speaking out publicly within the ranks. If the supporters are invisible, they aren't doing enough.
Kurmudgeon
(1,751 posts)If you refuse to make distinction, how else will we expose the true problem, right wing mammon worship and prejudice?
If you continue to allow them to misuse Christianity or really anything, that only serves their purpose.
stockholmer
(3,751 posts)believe in, then you will understand why I dismiss yours as well.
Stephen Roberts
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)who laid the foundation for Reformation? Elevating the Rational and the Personal understandings over the dictate and dogma of an elite few. And aren't those same congregations today amongst the most liberal and accepting?
Seems your view of religions is perhaps limited. In my opinion each Child, Gay, Straight, Trans or Cis reveals new understanding of the mystery of life and god.
izquierdista
(11,689 posts)There was a lot of good science done in the Arab world-- until Al-Ghazali killed it. Neil deGrasse Tyson has an informative talk on the subject:
One_Life_To_Give
(6,036 posts)I hold it out as an example of a Religion embracing personal knowledge and rationalism. Given time it produced a more enlightened faith.
It's why I have hope.
mojowork_n
(2,354 posts)The Reformation was a couple of hundred years before Jonathan Edwards, and
the fact that it occurred at all owes much to John Wycliffe, Jan Hus, Martin Luther,
Zwingli and Calvin. Also -- an accident of history, but not to be under-estimated
because we're all still communicating in English -- to Henry VIII.
Jonathan Edwards' was the best known of the 'Fire and Brimstone' ("You're All
Going to Hell" ...if you don't believe everything I say) Puritan preachers. In
the American Colonies, some two hundred years later.
He was a fore-runner of today's "non-denominational" and Mega-Church front men for
tribal wisdom, power and guilt-tripping, Dominionism, and American Exceptionalism.
But you're generally right about some of the most liberal and accepting congregations
often being some with the longest faith traditions. (Also, folks like the Friends, the
Unitarians, the U.C.C. -- United Church of Christ, along with many individual congregations
of really, really Old Time churches. The ones that go back a couple of thousand years.)
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)and most are bigoted against gays and women and other religions. not all.
MarkCharles
(2,261 posts)religious groups have nothing whatsoever positive nor scientific to say on the subject of homosexual behaviors, and many religions only barely tolerate, (and most often make no effort to understand) LGBT folks within their congregations.
If some religious folks are upset with the reality of the bigoted behaviors based upon myth from so many other religious folks, why are they wasting time attacking atheists who also are upset by the same bigotry? Why are some religious folks attempting to falsely accuse me and my fellow LGBT atheists of being bigots?
What is their hidden agenda? To exempt themselves from being falsely accused, perhaps? Then why would they falsely accuse me? Hmmm! Does something in their religion force them to do so?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)mainstream Christians are associated with preachers engaged in this scam. Donnie McClurkin, the Exodus International people, these are mainstream Protestant organization. Deal with it. The fault is in your community, you should address that among your own.
William769
(55,147 posts)Theres been enough bashing on all sides.
BTW recorded.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)William769
(55,147 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I do not agree this is some equal wrongs thing. Deal with it, the 'faith community' is in the wrong on this horror. We do not do the same to them.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)can we has a cure for homophobia or just conservativsm in general???
chervilant
(8,267 posts)The organisation and its staff taught us that change only comes to those who truly want it and are willing to put in the work. So if I wasnt changing, I was seen as someone who either really didnt sincerely want it, or would not put in the necessary work.
Yeah, the ol' Catch 22: find a way to blame Teh Gay for an untenable program with predictable consequences. At the same time, continue to rake in 'thousands of dollars' and maintain a mantle of 'benevolent, well-intentioned program.'
These cretins should be exposed as heterosexists, and shunned. They should be made to reimburse those who've survived their disgusting 'program.'
closeupready
(29,503 posts)nt
The Doctor.
(17,266 posts)But I'm glad he came through it more or less intact.
What really galls me is how these hypocritical and no doubt self-loathing assholes go into these programs to prey on these young men. They should be exposed across the board.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I know I sound like a broken record when it comes to the "reparative therapy" programs, but the APA released a statement years ago that those programs can lead to depression and suicide and just plain flat out do not work.
If that many psychologists agree that reparative therapy does not work AND also can cause some serious mental and physical harm, then it should be touted, spoken, and shouted from the rooftops, IMHO, if that is what it takes to save an innocent victim's life and well being from those hideous, dangerous reparative therapy programs.
http://www.apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx
http://www.examiner.com/international-lgbt-issues-in-national/apa-gay-conversion-therapy-can-cause-depression-and-suicide-attempts
http://www.matthewshepard.org/new/matthew-shepard-foundation-applauds-american-psychological-association-for-repudiating-%E2%80%9Cgay-to-straight%E2%80%9D-therapy