Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumAccusing Israel of ‘genocide’: Major fail
And deservedly so, because it’s a false accusation. This is not how to fight the occupation, this is how to help strengthen it.Mahmoud Abbas’ speech last Friday at the United Nations General Assembly gave the highest-profile-ever exposure to the accusation, popular among anti-Zionists, that Israel practices “genocide” against the Palestinians, and that the war in Gaza was a genocidal one. That’s the highlight of the speech that was picked for the headline in any number of major international news outlets; in Israel the speech is already known, and will be forever, as Abbas’ “genocide speech.” That one word seems to have overshadowed everything else he said at the UN podium, which is a pity, because his basic message – that 21 years of internationally-sponsored peace negotiations have screwed the Palestinians, and they will stand for no more – is right and true, and must be heard, in exactly the furious, combative tone he adopted.
If his use of the term “genocide” to describe the occupation and the war in Gaza were truthful but “impolitic,” that would be one thing. But it’s not true – it’s plain false. And on top of that, it’s impolitic in the extreme – it’s politically suicidal, precisely because it’s so clearly false. It’s an Achilles heel in the argument against the occupation. It allows the right wing to sweep aside everything else, in this case every true thing that Abbas said at the UN, and zero in on that one blatant falsehood. It STAMPS the anti-occupation cause with fanaticism, with reckless disregard for the truth, with hysterical hatred for Israel. That one stupid word.
Using it against Israel may work well to “energize the base” in closed, anti-Zionist circles; it may also get some COLLEGE KIDS to join a protest. But now that Abbas has, for the first time, put the term out in the mainstream, it is so painfully obvious that accusing Israel of genocide is to shoot oneself in the foot, if not the head. When you accuse Israel of committing genocide against the Palestinians, you are accusing it of deliberately, systematically executing them en masse, hundreds of thousands or millions of them. You’re accusing Israel of an attempt to exterminate an entire people, like the Nazis did the Jews, like the Ottoman Turks did the Armenians, like the Hutus did the Tutsis in Rwanda. That’s what people think of when they hear the word “genocide.” That was not the war in Gaza, and that’s not the occupation....
...Not so with “genocide.” Using it puts you an inch away from equating Israel with Nazi Germany. This sort of rhetoric will not stand the light of day. When Abbas used it in his UN speech, he might as well have put a “kick me” sign on his back as he left the podium. And I’m just dreading to hear Bibi take him up on that inadvertent offer when he makes his own speech at the UN later Monday.
more...
http://972mag.com/accusing-israel-of-genocide-major-fail/97099/
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Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Because only one race of people in one place on earth in one period of history can ever be victims of genocide. only them. Them alone. no one else. Ever.
King_David
(14,851 posts)That's what you saying?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I mean I guess Derfner could be implying the Roma there, but, well... Everyone always forgets about the Roma, it seems.
King_David
(14,851 posts)on a website like DU.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Derfner's claim is that Genocide = Nazi. That's not true, and carries some rather unfortunate implications with the assumption.
shira
(30,109 posts)Gaza is like the Warsaw ghetto, it's Auschwitz...
Godwinizing on crack.
It's beyond obscene Jew-baiting and the US State Department says making the Israel/Nazi comparison is antisemitic.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Jews are not special nor the chosen people nor smart nor nobel winners nor good cooks either nor a people nor a nation etc.
There's only 12 million in the world and 3 billion obsess over them.
We heard this lots.
This may be the Israel / Palestine group but Scotaloo you do love discussing Jews .
bravenak
(34,648 posts)The Native American Genocide killed millions more than what the nazis did, especially if you consider the African Genocide with the middle passage. I equate what Israel is doing with what America did to the Natives during manifest destiny. Besides, Germany studied th native American genocide and got tips on how to do it from us.
You seem to forget that our money pays for Israel to do what it does. And many of us would prefer for Israel to pay it's own way 100 percent and stop making demands of our leaders for money, weapons, and being nasty and disrespectful to our democratic president.
You supposed to be a lefty, but you never question the tactics of the right wing Likud government of Hetanyahu, but you do deride leftists who do not agree with right wing policies. Funny that.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Your meant to be a lefty and I never see you stick up for gay rights...nor
criticize the Muslim states for abysmal Gay records and discrimination against Women.
That aint no lefty in my book , supporting extreme right wing regimes such as the PA and Hamas.
You think your a 'Who is a lefty judge Judy ' ??? 
My views on Israel are exactly the same as the Democratic Party and their reps. 
That is why I post on DU.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)When have you seen me attack gay people, ever? I never talk about my sexual preferences on DU, since I prefer to discuss politics. You have no idea who I have been with between the sheets with in my life, and I am equally pleased by both sexes when I do the down and dirty. To support gay rights, I vote for democrats. And I never talk shit about people for being themselves. You forget that I worked in industries where the employees are much more sexually liberated than in most areas.
This whole nasty thing you do of accusing any and everyone you get pissy with of being an anti gay bigot is getting stale as fuck. I have probably had more naked girls in th bed with m than you have had partners in your life. Grow up. I never told you I was Bi because I just knew you would eventually accuse me of exactly what you just accused me of. You cannot stop yourself. It is quite offensive to me and you need to stop accusing bisexuals of not supporting gay rights. We do. So,e of us have racial discrimination to deal with and focus alot of time on that, along with issues of sexism and misogyny. Add to that we have lives, kids, and work to do, we cannot spend every second doing what King David believes would be the best use of our time.
As for Hamas, I do not pay a dime for Hamas and I expect them to be exactly who they are. I expect better from the 'Most Moral Army' and the people of a State tgat my tax dollars do support and who have lobbyists that petition my US government for money and assistance at the UN. And don't think for a second that supporting one extreme right wing nation over a right wing entity is a lefty thing to do. That's some neoliberal bullshit fantasy.
Like I said. Mr Lefty. You never have nothing to say about the right wing crap coming out of lLikud and just use insults and deflection techniques to avoid admitting that both sides are extremists and that it is okay to support neither government.
I will never get over you implying i am against gay rights.
King_David
(14,851 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)You are so real.
rateyes
(17,438 posts)She skewered you, and rightly so!
King_David
(14,851 posts)But I'll never find out, I am a really busy dude .
rateyes
(17,438 posts)Your hypocrisy!
rateyes
(17,438 posts)I have wanted to ask you what you think of the character of the man whose moniker you use. Because, as I see it, he was not a very good man. Perhaps a great king, but a pretty bad guy.
King_David
(14,851 posts)rateyes
(17,438 posts)Saul's son Jonathan, but that's not what made him a bad man. I was speaking of that rape and murder thing.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Because he was the 1st out Gay Jewish King.
rateyes
(17,438 posts)thus his rape of Bathsheba and his murder of her husband to cover up her pregnancy. And, when he was on his deathbed, to find out how sick he was, his attendants put a beautiful woman in the bed with him, because they knew if he had any strength that he would try to have sex with her. when he couldnt get it up, they knew the old man was on his way out.
So, we really dont know for sure what his sexual preference was. My guess is, he swung both ways.
He was still a bad man.
King_David
(14,851 posts)I chose it cos he was a Gay King / Queen.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)That's all you, Dave. Not sure where this comes from, after telling you that "genocide" is not an exclusive term... Unless you're trying to take offense at reality. again.
Maybe you should stick with telling me i shouldn't care about people who i do not share a race with, perhaps?
Response to Scootaloo (Reply #37)
King_David This message was self-deleted by its author.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...I take your comment to mean that you believe all Jews are special and that they are 'the chosen people.' As if that weren't enough, you suggest that they're all smart, nobel prize winners and good cooks...(which some of them may very well be.)
What exactly does that mean?... "The chosen people." Chosen for what exactly? I mean, besides annihilating the Palestinians and absconding with their land...
Chosen for what and by whom?
TYY
King_David
(14,851 posts)"besides annihilating the Palestinians and absconding with their land... "
Are you talking about Jews here?
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...at the end of your comment?
Yes, per your comment, we are talking about Jews here.
You said, "Jews are not special nor the chosen people...," followed by the sarcasm tag.
What did you mean, if you weren't being sarcastic?
TYY
King_David
(14,851 posts)That's why I used the sarcasm thingy. .
That's disgusting things people have posted about Jews on the Internet and of course none of it is true.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)"The chosen people." What exactly does that mean?... Chosen for what and by whom?
TYY
King_David
(14,851 posts)Take it to the Jewish group or religious group . Mine was a sarcastic post.
I don't take "Chosen" to mean anything and I'm secular , best you ask someone who believes .
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...when stating that Jews are 'the chosen people,' then, I get it. I wasn't looking for a discussion on Jewish religious philosophy. I'm just trying to decipher your intended sarcasm as it applies to your comment that 'Jews are the chosen people.'
Examples of sarcasm, for clarification:
The sky is green.
The grass is blue.
Pigs can fly.
Jews are the chosen people.
TYY
King_David
(14,851 posts)It's found all over the Internet ...
The same questions , what makes Jews chosen ?Why do they control Hollywood , Wallstreet and the White House ? And this is usually followed by something about the USS Liberty.
These questions are usually on extremist right wing repugnant websites .
I don't engage that offensive bigoted nonsense .
Understand ??
Your skating on thin ice ...
This is DU not some extreme right wing website .
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)That said, I completely understand why you'd want to end it.
TYY
King_David
(14,851 posts)And recognize where the questions come from.
You best take that sort of question off DU --- it belongs in extreme right wing hate sights where nobody takes them serious .
This is what I think of the question you asked about: What makes Jews Chosen ?--
Bye
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)"We've seen it before" in tandem with the threat that I'm 'skating on thin ice,' followed by the implication that I would be happier posting on some obscure 'extreme right wing hate site' and driven home with the proverbial puking smiley; all to convince yourself that you are legion?
I think you've just inadvertently answered my original question, but I must ask, "Who is this 'we' of whom you speak?"
TYY
King_David
(14,851 posts)Us gay Jews are not only "chosen"
But we consider ourselves to be
"Twice Blessed " too. ...
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)... "chosen" for what; and by whom?
"Twice Blessed " too. ...
I'll give you props for being gay but that imaginary pedestal you're clinging to has got to be somewhat burdensome.
TYY
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 30, 2014, 06:12 AM - Edit history (1)
....tend to never accuse other nations of the same Nazi intent.
Just the Jewish state.
Why?
Just a fun fact: Abbas is a bonafide Holocaust denier and he is accusing Israel of genocide.
And this shit is defended here.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)....and accusing it of genocide do not ever compare other nations to the Nazis.
Only the Jewish one.
It's Jew-baiting on steroids and it's beyond vile.
These same assholes crying Israeli genocide are the same assholes co-signing an open letter written by David Duke cheerleaders who support Hamas' resistance against the dreaded Jews. And they're proud of who and what they are.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)
FBaggins
(26,735 posts)This nonsensical strawman is tiring.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)In which case I agree, the tossing around of loose and misguided accusations of anti-semitism is tiring.
It's very clearly the ongoing accusation that supporters of Israel think that only Jews have ever been victims of genocide... when the OP very clearly lists multiple examples that contradict the strawman.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)And that the reason that they criticize Israeli actions in harsh terms is "Jew-baiting".
I would hope that an intelligent discussion could be had about whether the Israeli actions over many decades amount to "genocide" or not without accusations of anti-semitism. But that's not what happens. Instead we get accusations of anti-semitism, based on the unsubstantiated accusation that using the word "genocide" is meant to bring up the Holocaust specifically.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There is no one here who thinks that.
Do you recognize that there it is possible for antisemitism to be involved with respect to Israel, though?
"Israeli should withdraw from all settlements. Israel should be held accountable for civilians killed in Gaza. Israel should end the blockade immediately. Israel should remove the wall/barrier/fence."
The above are criticisms of Israel that have nothing to do with antisemitism and no one reasonable would claim that they do.
"Israel is hell bent on the genocidal slaughter of every Palestinian man, woman, and child. Israel is just like Nazi Germany. Israel is a poisonous cancer in the Middle East that must be removed."
Those sorts of comments about Israel could be said to have elements of antisemitism.
Would you agree?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I'll let you count them. There's even a reference to stormfront in there. What is the purpose of that?
As an interesting aside, in another thread shira is insisting that anyone who believes "Israel should end the blockade immediately" is "pro-terror". So there's that.
Yes, of course anti-semitism could be involved with respect to Israel. But the transition from "could" to "is" is made very loosely here. Witness shira's accusation that bringing up "genocide" is "Jew-baiting".
Do you think it's possible for a person to think that Israel's actions over many decades amount to "genocide" without being anti-semitic? Do you think that when they say "genocide" they necessarily have Nazi Germany in mind, as opposed to, say the treatment of Native Americans by Europeans, or just an abstract definition of "genocide"?
I don't think that even over-the-top criticism of Israel is necessarily anti-semitic. Especially not on DU. DU is pretty far left when it comes to foreign policy in general -- if you go into GD you will find pages and pages of over-the-top criticism of American foreign policy. And remember, after 9-11 a lot of far-left commentators quickly chimed in to say that the US was actually the world's largest terrorist actor and so on. That wasn't motivated by anti-semitism.
To me, excessive criticism of Israel (i.e. Israel=Nazis and the like) stems mostly from leftist anti-imperialism and anti-colonialism gone too far, along with the tendency to root for the underdog. You'd see the same thing if Israel had nothing to do with Judaism.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"Every time someone criticizes Israel, they are accused of anti-semitism"
I think that claim is false and unfair.
However, I do think sometimes people are accused of anti-semitism when they are not anti-semites.
Is being anti-Zionist anti-semitic? I think if by anti-Zionist one is asserting that the Jews alone are the only people who do not have the right to their own state then it can border on being anti-semitic. However if one is just anti-nationalism generally, and thus opposes Zionism on that grounds, then that is different. But if one says that certain groups of people deserve something that the Jewish people don't, then we are veering into anti-semitic territory.
Regarding accusations of genocide against Israel. I think it is just a preposterous claim in the face of the evidence. Obviously some people disagree. Where it gets into anti-semitic territory, in my view, is when comparisons to Nazi Germany are made. Generally speaking, though, I think claims of genocide are merely hyperbole to generate attention.
Regarding your last paragraph, I strongly disagree. There are definitely examples around the world of imperialism much more grievous than anything Israel is doing and one does not get comparisons to Nazi Germany in those cases. I would argue that it is precisely because of Israel's connection to Judaism that those comparisons are made.
For instance, have you not heard people say "Didn't they learn anything from the Holocaust?" or "Isn't it ironic that Israel is treating the Palestinians the way the Jews were treated by the Nazis?" I know I have seen that (here and elsewhere). Such comparisons are only possible because Israel is connected to Judaism.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Yes, it's unfair to say that every time someone criticizes Israel, they are accused of anti-semitism. It's not unfair to say that people are frequently accused of anti-semitism unfairly. It has happened in this thread more than once.
Calling what Israel does "genocide" might be preposterous, or it might be wrong but not preposterous (my current opinion, though I reserve the right to change it), or it might even be defensible. One problem we have here on DU (and in the Western media generally) is that there are very few (any on DU?) Palestinians contributing, or even many Arab Muslims. I would imagine people who have lived for decades under Israeli occupation might have some things to say about the "genocide" question that were not remotely motivated by anti-semitism, but rather personal experience.
I disagree on two accounts. First, Nazi comparisons are incredibly common -- that's why there's something called "Godwin's Law." People like Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld get called Nazis (as does Obama, by the other side). The Nazi comparison is not unique to any particular country. It's all-purpose hyperbole. Of course, here we're only talking about the term "genocide", but still.
I agree that there are examples of imperialism (and other crimes) far worse than anything Israel is doing. The question here, I think, is why does Israel get so much attention. There are several answers. First, they are a Western nation and they get a lot of US support. Second, nobody prominent in the US and certainly nobody on the left is defending nations like Sudan or ISIS or whatever. This is also why (or one of the reasons) that George Zimmerman got a lot more attention than another random murderer.
Also, realize that South Africa wasn't the most evil nation in the world, even while it practiced apartheid. And yet it garnered a tremendous amount of international attention. A similar argument could be made for the disproportionality of South African apartheid in the scope of the world's problems. Whether or not you agree that Israel is practicing apartheid in the occupied territories, certainly you can understand that there are a lot of at least superficial similarities that go a long way in explaining why Israel is so controversial.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is kind of a pet peeve of mine.
That being said, I believe that Israel's Jewish connection does figure in to the use of that particular comparison by those who may harbor anti-Jewish sentiments since it is so obviously inapt.
I would be curious to know how Israel would be perceived if it's relation to Judaism was a non-factor.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4570484,00.html
Obviously, the title alone is a blanket accusation of anti-semitism, but the content is even worse, implying that in order to qualify as an "anti-Zionist" and therefore an "anti-semite" it is not necessary to actually say "I am anti-Zionist", but rather just to criticize Israel in ways that the author of the OP disagrees with.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I believe I address that point there.
FBaggins
(26,735 posts)Instead of Jews/Israel, pick black/feminist/gay and you'll recognize the trouble you're facing.
Yes... it's no doubt true that feminists occasionally jump to the conclusion that someone who merely disagrees on a given topic is misogynist. And, no doubt, there are people of color who assume that disagreements on some issue they care about means that you're racist. Similarly, you might be called homophobic when you aren't, just because you choose to argue a specific point.
The solution in all such cases is the same. If you want people to not assume that you're a duck... stop waddling and quacking like one - rather than trying to argue (correctly) that there actually are other things that make that noise or walk in that fashion.
You can rationally argue that not everyone who disagrees with Israel is anti-semitic... but you can't deny that strongly anti-semitic elements do exist in the real world (lots of them) and that's exactly how they use "genocide" when talking about Israel (often while denying the Holocaust).
I would hope that an intelligent discussion could be had about whether the Israeli actions over many decades amount to "genocide" or not without accusations of anti-semitism
Well sure... but the only "intelligent discussion" on the top is very short.
Person 1 - "It's ridiculous to call Israel's actions 'genocide'"
Person 2 - "Yep... I'm no fan of Israel here - in fact I think those are clear war crimes... but it simply isn't what the word means"
Anything further departs the realm of "intelligent discussion".
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Obviously, African American slaves were grossly and genocidally mistreated. And yet that doesn't stop people from calling out genocides that occur in modern-day Africa, committed by black people. Nobody of sound mind calls this racist.
As a specific example, lets consider the massacre of Zimbabwe civilians in 1982. 20,000 people were massacred. Some activists are calling for this to be officially labeled a genocide. So is it a genocide? I have no idea. It certainly wasn't millions of people like the Holocaust. But if some angry person responded by saying "genocide, how dare they use that word", I would tell them to go to hell. OK, maybe it's genocide, maybe it's technically not because it's "only" 20,000 people, but let's have a civil discussion and understand where these people are coming from.
Now lets move on to the Palestinians. They've certainly been living under, let's say, "horrific illegal shit" for decades. The occasional Israeli military interventions are only a small part of the conditions they've been subjected to. And it all was kicked off by the Nakba, where 700,000 Palestinians were either expelled or fled from their homes, only to not be allowed to return, and remain refugees to this day.
And now a Palestinian person -- a member of the victimized group -- decides that this amounts to a "genocide". The real question isn't "how dare he" but rather why are people getting outraged? Is it technically "genocide", or "incremental genocide" or just "ethnic cleansing" or none of the above? That can be discussed rationally without the outrage and accusations of anti-semitism.
shira
(30,109 posts)Abbas is a Holocaust denier and his PA frequently compares Israel to the Nazis. There's no question what motivates Abbas' UN statements. It's pure antisemitism.
Those who call Israel out for genocide almost always compare Israel to the Nazis. It's hard to find exceptions. These same Israel bashers NEVER equate other countries to Nazi Germany. THAT's why antisemitism is suspected. It's Jew-baiting and it's grotesque.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)You don't think maybe, just maybe, he was using the word "genocide" because of the tremendous suffering of the Palestinian people? That seems to be the obvious explanation. Right? Also, didn't Abbas call the Holocaust the "most heinous crime" in modern history. That doesn't sound very Holocaust denial-y to me. I think you're letting your anger and biases get in the way of reason.
Especially interesting is your claim that people calling Israel out for genocide "almost always" compare Israel to the Nazis, when in this case the person who brought up the Nazis was the OP. You're saying this is the exception the proves the rule?
shira
(30,109 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Do try to stay on the same page as the rest of the class, Shira.
shira
(30,109 posts)They are one and the same.
And it's these putzes who equate only Israel to Nazi Germany....no other nation.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I know you want it to be the topic, but it's just not. I'm sorry. Maybe check Algemeiner. I'm sure they have an "article" about some tweet from Paul Schmakblatt in Hoboken equating Israel with Nazis, that you can start an outrage thread about.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)In his address, Netanyahu not only condemned Hamas but put it on par with the Nazis, the German party responsible for the death of approximately 6 million Jewish people during World War II. “The Nazis believe in a master race, the militants believe in a master faith,” he said.
http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/netanyahu-likens-iran-and-hamas-isis-nazis
The leadership of Israel utilizes these terms endlessly, when he stops, maybe others will too.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Oh, it cannot because the Armenian Genocide began in 1915 and what about the Assyrian Genocide? What about the Genocide in the Belgian Congo? Does that mean Leopold was copying Hitler? Then there was the Cromwellian Genocide in Ireland
Will you please stop playing the victim card by assuming that any mention of Genocide or concentration camp means we are equating Jews with Nazis.
shira
(30,109 posts)...to being compared to the Nazis as the Jewish state.
That's deliberate and it's obscene.
In what moral universe does genocide involve warning civilians or ensure that they get humanitarian aid?
intaglio
(8,170 posts)and recently I could have included Chile, Argentina, Paraguay Portugal and Spain ... please get off your high horse, it is the actions of a state that invite comparisons to the Nazis not the ethnicity of the electorate.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)How about Myanmar?
intaglio
(8,170 posts)I notice however you do not dispute the application of that name in the recent past to states other than Israel.
Note also it is not "The Jews" who attract the comparison but rather the State of Israel which, despite your attempts to identify it with all Jews, only represents a significant minority of the Judaic peoples; there are many of Jewish origin who do not wish to be identified with an outlaw state.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 30, 2014, 04:52 PM - Edit history (1)
I would point out that in no way do I identify Israel with "all Jews"
I do think, though, that some people who are anti-Semites express that anti-semitism by way of attacking Israel.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I'm just giving my perspective on the subject.
King_David
(14,851 posts)The other day , speaking about Amira Hass , columnist for Haaretz you said about her : "So a reporter for a paper that has a known anti-Palestinian bias"...
It's all very confusing for the novice but you can get some good stuff reading Pir posts here if you get confused again.
Cheers 
intaglio
(8,170 posts)It does have a known pro-Government and hence anti-Palestinian bias. In a lot of ways it is like the old, pre-Murdoch, Sun; happy to appear as socialist whilst somehow never quite being able to criticise the ruling class.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Haaretz ?
You serious ?
Btw ever heard of Amira Hass before?
Gideon Levy ring a bell?
As I said IP is very complicated for the novice.
shira
(30,109 posts)They reserve that one only for the Jewish state.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)but instead I will stick to "bovine excrement". I once suggested to King_David that he read some history, I would strongly advise you to do the same.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)You're actually on it, right now. People here will compare anything and everything to Nazi Germany. Tyrants like Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il. Politicians from Bush to Obama to Rumsfeld and Cheney. All kinds of countries get compared to Nazi Germany, America more than any other. In fact "America Nazi" gets more google hits than "Germany Nazi" even. In many cases "Nazi" has just come to mean "someone you disagree with." It's so common that there's a term for it: "Godwin's Law." And it's even used in jest, for example, Seinfeld's "soup Nazi".
Take a look around, you'll see for yourself. There are Nazi comparisons everywhere.
shira
(30,109 posts)These same unhinged Israel bashers do not equate other countries to Nazi Germany.
When you find Israel bashers who equate Israel to Nazi Germany in addition to equating other nations besides Israel to Nazi Germany, you let me know.
whosinpower1
(85 posts)For once I agree with you. I recently got into an argument with someone who was speaking favorably (can you believe it?) of Hamas and equated Israel with the Nazi's.
I replied that I could not take her seriously at all-because, even though I am no historian, my impression on what the nazi's committed against Jews was singular in its intent and horror. It stands alone in its systematic and deliberate atrocity.
It is hard to take Hillary Clinton seriously when she compared Putin to Hitler. It is hard to take Netanyahu seriously when he compared ISIS to the nazis.
They should know better. Do you agree?
FBaggins
(26,735 posts)The only alternative appears to be dishonesty... unless you're under the impression that Armenians and Tutsis are Jews?
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)So Larry Derfner, the unapologetic left wing journalist who was actually fired from haaretz for his article empathizing with Hamas' attacks on Israel is IYO implying that the term genocide is only applicable when the victims are Jews? Because anyone who disagrees with abbas' description clearly abides by this specific, racist ideology of yours. An ideology that I've only ever seen voiced as an accusation, never (nor anything remotely similar) as an affirmation.
It's telling that all of your criticisms require vastly deviating from the actual statements made by your target. I've never seen you make an honest rebuttal to anyone's actual statement. Your arguments hinge on drawing extremely extrapolated distortions, straw men; that don't exist in the real world.
Through these fabrications you tip your own hand though. Even a journalist renown for his commitment to peace and progressivism is reamed for his obscene views, "only violence against Jews can qualify as genocide, to reinforce Jews' perceived status as eternal victims."
It's hateful accusations like this that give us a clear peek behind the veil of many self-proclaimed "leftist anti-zionists" such as yourself, revealing an ideology that's neither leftist, nor progressive. A little too much so in your case to be believed, really. Larry Derfner has already more than proven his progressive political commitment. Your knee jerk response attacking him for repugnant views, views he came nowhere near to espousing, comes off less like real criticism and more like a desperate fishing expedition... Hoping to snag a "zionist" to troll with hate-speech, and increasingly blatant bigotry.
For the record, it's not the political views you post that mark you as a troll/possible bigot. I don't think they're actually beliefs you hold. Rather, they're simply bait, taken less and less often, provoking ever grosser posts from you in hopes of a bite.
So, are Israel supporters just easy/fun targets, or are you really as deeply hateful of Jewish people as your posts would imply? I'd normally wager that you're just a trolly kid, but the amount of research and effort you've put into this would imply otherwise.
If you do, somehow, actually believe the stuff you post, then you're packing some serious stormfront level hate under that steel plate denial of yours.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)Ref : So Larry Derfner, the unapologetic left wing journalist who was actually fired from haaretz for his article empathizing with Hamas' attacks on Israel
He did apologise .
He was never empolyed by Haaretz .
His blog post was not about Hamas .
ref : .....
What didn’t stop Ehud Barak from reaching the premiership has cost Derfner his job, and that is a shame.
When I was editor-in-chief of The Jerusalem Post over a decade ago, I fired a number of columnists. Newspaper editors have the right – in fact, it’s their job – to decide who should be granted the privilege of 20 or so column inches a week in which to argue their piece.
A successful editor will choose a broad range of writers, with the aim of entertaining, instructing and, yes, infuriating readers. No editor wants a paper so bland that the readers never splutter over their morning cereal or coffee while reading the opinion pages.
In infuriating some Post readers, it seems that Larry Derfner was only too successful. But the article that cost Derfner his job was not something he wrote for the Post; it was a piece he wrote for his own blog.
And herein lies the danger of blogging.
Without an experienced editor at his shoulder saying, “Larry, are you really sure you want to write, particularly after a terror attack, that because of the occupation ‘I think the Palestinians have the right to use terrorism against us’?” Derfner rashly self-published an article that he thought was arguing that the occupation provoked terrorism, but that everybody else took, at face value, as justifying Palestinian terrorism against Israeli civilians.
To his credit, on realizing his mistake, Derfner posted an apology on his blog, stressing that he did not condone terrorism, and removed the offensive column. In his apology, Derfner wrote: “The occupation does not justify Palestinian terror. It does, however, provoke it. Palestinians do not have the right to attack or kill Israelis. They, do, however, have the incentive to, and part, though not all, of that incentive is provided them by the occupation. I believe that if Israel gives the Palestinians their independence, we have enough military power to neutralize whatever leftover incentive they would have to attack us.”
Now, one can agree or disagree with this point of view, but it’s not really a viewpoint that’s outside the Israeli consensus.
Let’s not forget that the defense minister in one of the most right-wing governments in the country’s history basically shares this perspective. When he was successfully running for prime minister in 1999, Ehud Barak was asked what he would do had he been born a Palestinian. His answer: “I would join a terror organization.”
What didn't stop Barak from reaching the premiership has cost Derfner his job, and that is a shame, both for Derfner personally and the wider Post readership. Derfner (disclosure: Larry is a personal friend, dating back to our time together in ulpan after we both made aliya over a quarter of a century ago) is a committed Zionist, with a liberal perspective that is at odds with this newspaper’s editorial line.
And this is precisely what makes him such an important writer for the Post. A newspaper with a trenchant political line needs a maverick columnist to “rattle the cage” of the paper’s comfortable orthodoxies and to show the readers that there is an Israel out there that does not share its particular assumptions.
Looking back at my career at the Post, one of my major accomplishments was bringing haredi columnist Jonathan Rosenblum into the paper. I hardly agreed with a word that he so elegantly and amusingly wrote, but felt it important that the paper provide a window into the haredi world. The same was true for the decision to hire Daoud Kuttab as a columnist; instead of having learned Israeli academics write about what Palestinians were thinking, why not go to the horse’s mouth, so to speak, and have a Palestinian write? But at the same time, once the second intifada really kicked in, we dropped Kuttab’s column. It wasn’t an easy decision to make, but we were at war with the Palestinians and that was not the time to provide editorial space to someone on the other side of the lines.
Derfner is no enemy of the Jewish people, and he wishes Israel no harm.
In fact, it is the readers who vehemently called for a boycott of the Post if Derfner were not fired who present the real danger to Israel. Their narrow, self-righteous view of the world and Israel’s place within it, coupled with their failure to accept any criticism of Israel that jars with this viewpoint, encourages a totalitarian mind-set that damages the fabric of Israel as an open, tolerant society in which freedom of expression is a basic right.
The writer is a former editor-in-chief of The Jerusalem Post.
Source : http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/The-firing-of-Larry-Derfner
King_David
(14,851 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 30, 2014, 08:12 AM - Edit history (1)
"are you really as deeply hateful of Jewish people as your posts would imply?"Appears to be.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)This is a total mis-characterization of Derfner.
That's certainly the implication when you equate "genocide" and "Nazi" as synonyms.
Not at all. But if you're going to claim that genocide and nazi are synonyms, what you are implying is that "genocide' is pretty exclusive as to who can be affected. Two peoples in fact, and nobody ever seems to remember the Roma.
Maybe you should look around more.
This will become more ironic, the further into your post we go.
Who are you quoting there? Google's not showing me anything.
And you are of course, someone who can credibly speak on what is and is not leftist and progressive. Just like Glenn Beck.
You want to have a laugh after having typed that?
Click here
And here
And here
I think Derfner said something really dumb. Up until this point, you guys have been practically howling for the man's blood. I think he's wrong on a point, the three of you stooges believe he's some sort of monster.
So please. Do continue waxing poetic about the man's virtues. It's a good study of how how you guys have absolutely no principles whatsoever.
Well, whatever you call it, looks like the Zionist trolls are biting. I've got one bridge-dweller who thinks Hamas runs Israel and that Arabs should not have political rights, I've got a mushroom-grower whpo regularly strips people of their jewish idendity for disagreeing with him and who proclaims the virtues of right-wing religious fundamentalist homophobes while wearing a pride avatar, and here's you. the person who thinks th nakba was just affirmative action.
whee hah.
'Course you guys rant and rave no matter what i say, so let's not fool ourselves into thinking this is a special occasion.
For the record, you're consistently displayed an utter inability to comprehend anything said to you that does not speak worshipfully of Israel. So, for the record, I don't think anyone here worries overmuch about what you think of their politics, since it's clear you don't understand them. i certainly don't, at least.
Nice pearl-clutching by hte way. If only you could express such shock when people are being slaughtered in your name.
What an interesting question. i like how you switched subjects mid-sentence, trying - as usual - to paint all Jews as Israel supporters... or all Israel-supporters as Jews? One or the other, it's wrong either way. But nice attempt anyway. Especially after that garble about straw men, delicious.
Now, as cretinous as that was, I'm having a bit of fun answering you. So. We'll take one subject, then the other.
Of course you guys are easy. You make the same bad arguments over and over again, the same repetitive justifications, the same sorry attempts at fflections. And yes, it's funny as hell sometimes. Have you ever seen Shira go off-script? Flotillas to Tibet!I argue with you guys partly out of a hope that you'll wrap your heads around the idea that Palestinian are human beings and do not deserve the violence and oppression you celebrate being levied agaisnt them. But that's a lost cause, since you're all so deeply invested in your racial supremacist ideology. So mostly it ends up for my own entertainment. You lot are essentually no different than the fuckwits I engage with on right-wing messageboards. Like, literally, there's been no difference. Right down to the same old "I'm a minoroty so I get to be a hateful asshole!" attempts. Which brings me to...
Nothing I have ever posted has implied this. Which is why you, among others, have to resort to your own long-shot extrapolations in order to try to claim otherwise. Which is again, fairly typical, it's not as if your positions are defensible, so i can't blame you for trying to cram words i never said into my mouth - like this;
"only violence against Jews can qualify as genocide, to reinforce Jews' perceived status as eternal victims."
Quotation marks and all! Wowee!-
in order to deflect from your own inherently indefensible, shitty position that israel has a right to kill and oppress Palestinians, because reasons.
Know what i do hate? Those asshats I just mentioned. The creepy, exploitative fucks who think that proclaiming themselves to be black, or Jewish, or gay, or what have you on the internet, gives them a free pass to express the absolute depths of vicious bigotry and hatred against someone else. The way I figure it, not only are these depraved skin-wastes exploiting minority groups, but are also very intentionally mis-characterizing those groups, claiming that the hatred and savage barbarism coming from that poster is normal, or representative of that particular group.
Well, you've got me at a disadvantage; that's way more flatterign than my regards for you, shaktimaan. D'awwww, i feel warm and fuzzy.
Depends on what you have in mind. I am sardonic at times.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)This demonstrates the futility in responding to your schpiel with logical arguments. No matter what I write, by the time that thought makes its way through your malfunctioning circuit board of a brain, the original concept will bear no resemblance to the glitchy one you're left with.
I didn't compare the nakba to affirmative action. You just say that I did. Slander being easier than thinking I suppose.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but I digress here's more from what he said regarding the word genocide and that oh so bothersome A word
And let’s not forget “apartheid.” I don’t use the term because it’s based on racial supremacism, while the occupation is based on national supremacism, and this is a major difference. But the most significant feature of apartheid – that of one people officially, as a matter of policy, keeping another people down by force – is the most significant feature of the occupation, too, so the comparison is certainly more true than false. Besides, good Zionists like Ehud Barak, Ehud Olmert, Tzipi Livni, former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon and star newspaper columnist Nahum Barnea have made the comparison, so it can’t be dismissed as another exercise in slanderous Israel-bashing by the “loony Left.”
King_David
(14,851 posts)How today's hero is dropped like faeces the next day.
Gotta luv it...
Ha ha ha ha
Israeli
(4,151 posts)I actually find it more amusing that shira is posting something from 972 and from Larry ....after all the good words she has had for him and us in the past
Larry Derfner is an American born liberal Zionist King_David
see : http://972mag.com/response-to-joseph-dana-a-case-for-liberal-zionism/28549/
You are also an American born liberal Zionist are you not ?
So ....what is so funny ???
shira
(30,109 posts)Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam.
whosinpower1
(85 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)Baroor.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)....and adding misspelled words in hebrew translation does not make it any clearer .
King_David
(14,851 posts)And not in Hebrew script.
Is it Hannukah or Channukah ?
Shanah Tovah by the way ,
or is it Shana Tova ?
Israeli
(4,151 posts)....on where you learnt your Hebrew .... is it muzel tov or mazel tov .
All down to the vowels .....or your place of birth .
Over here you Americans stick out like a sore thumb .
" Baroor " ...
King_David
(14,851 posts)Into Israeli culture.
Acceptance of immigrants is a trait of the left.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)so now we have our own culture ......
You should try King_David.....see how easy it is .
" Acceptance of immigrants is a trait of the left. "
As in .....
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Tell me oh King of the Jews .....where oh where does America limit its self to one kind of immigrant and one kind only ?
King_David
(14,851 posts)But it's hilarious to see which posters do have a problem with it .
That's why Derfner has fallen from grace.
Baroor achshav ?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)got you to read what he actually said
procon
(15,805 posts)Even though the author says “genocide” and the occupation of Gaza "were truthful but “impolitic”, does it boil down to an argument of meaningless syntax?
Vogon_Glory
(9,117 posts)I've no great love for the Israelis, But I have to ask--
(1) When the Sudanese gov't was massacring Christians on the South and later Muslims in Darfur, where was the Palestinian Authority?
(2) when the Taliban was persecuting the Shi'a Hazara of Afghanistan, where was the Palestinian Authority?
(3) when both Sunni and Shia militia goons were persecuting Christians in Iraq, where was the Palestinian Authority?
(4) Now that ISIS is persecuting Iraqi Christians and waging pogroms on the Yazidi, where is the Palestinian Authority?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)King_David
(14,851 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I told them. The questions had nothing to do with gay people Dave.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)The PA has been too oppressed by Israel to make any political statements regarding any other issue anywhere?
What about when Kuwait ethically cleansed their state of the entire palestinian (refugee) population residing there, back in the 90's? Note they remained refugees despite having been in Kuwait for decades (if not actually born there.)
Do you honestly think that this act, (or any of the dozens like it), received the same level of condemnation or attention from the PA, the PLO, or the world in general as anything involving Israel?
This isn't said to dilute or distract from the many crimes Israel has perpetrated against the palestinian people. Far from it. I'm in favor of fair, accurate criticism where it's due, and subsequent penalties (whether in world court or by political action.)
But I find the unwillingness to discuss, much less denounce, the blatant preference for deeply negative activism, press, and critique wrt Israel, as extremely disturbing.
Worse, when liberal zionists such as myself continually encounter an international environment we perceive as unfairly hostile to Israel, it raises suspicions that only retard the peace process. Any realistic peace requires serious Israeli concessions be made, without any guarantees of peace from palestinian militants being possible.
Sadat did a good job of demonstrating his commitment to a legitimate peace through his actions. Israel has yet to see anything like that from palestine's leadership. Or, frankly, the rest of the world lately.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)If they could not even do anything about the situation of its own people, how could they save anyone else?
What is going on is that Israelnis drifting further and further rightwards unchecked, as such they will be critisized by those on the left for abuses.
The leaders do not help the situation at all. Netanyahu and his wing are scary right and quite satisfied with no solution.
Vogon_Glory
(9,117 posts)Nobody is expecting the Palestinian Authority to perform the June, 1944 Normandy Landings, but public statements of "Tsk, Tsk," "Tut, tut," as well as expressions of public indignation were well within the budget constraints of the ham-strung, put-upon Palestinian Authority.
Talk is cheap, you know.
The silence from the Palestinian Authority amid the distant background noise of distant crickets chirping was deafening.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Come to think of it, i remember Netanyahu saying that 9-11 was good for Israel, and I never see them soeak out against many things like tge occupation. Why can't the Israeli government just mention that the occupation is immoral and end it? I also never see them speak out against the anti black protests in Tel Aviv, I mean, talk is cheap, they could at least say tgat it's wrong to protest people of color living among them.
The PA has to shut up or get funding cut.
Vogon_Glory
(9,117 posts)That's no excuse for their silence.
What was done by the Sudanese to the people of what is now South Sudan and still Darfur, what the Taliban did to the Hazara before 2001, and what was being done to Iraqi Christians was being done quite independently of the US and Israeli governments, and all I remember hearing from the PA is the deafening sound of silence.
And spare the rest of this forum the BS about the oppressed Muslims of the PA. Pre-partition Palestine had a large Christian minority, most of whom have since fled the Israelis AND avowedly non-Zionist bully boys and goons of the West Bank and Gaza.
Want to know why I'm not such a big fan of the PA and Hamas? Because I think their present and past behaviors are pretty good indicators of how they'd behave if there was a united Palestine encompassing all of what was the old British mandate. And considering their thunderous silence in the wake of other people's massive human rights abuses, I'm NOT impressed.
I'm sure many self-styled peace activists would tell me otherwise and that I should give both the PA and Hamas blank checks for credulity. I'm not going to; the peace community has made some spectacular miscalculations of its own. I am old enough to remember the peace community telling us how wonderful things would be under the Khmer Rouge back in the 1970's. I'm also old enough to remember the verbiage about how Robert Mugabe and friends would govern multi-racial, multi-ethnic Zimbabwe.
As i said earlier, I don't like the Israelis very much. But I see no reason to buy another load of BS about a future democratic Palestine without considering how the PA and other entities operate in the here and now
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Drivel, drivel, nonsense, nonsense,boom!
Any excuse to deny the indiginous population their own homeland while the State of Israel steals more land. You do realize they just 'appropriated' more of the West Bank, right? Bomb Gaza, take land from the West bank to punish the Palestinians for having telegenic dead. Crap, crap, bullshit!
Vogon_Glory
(9,117 posts)Doesn't Mean I'm Thrilled With The Palestinian Leadership, or that I agree with their decisions.
Live with it.
If you want some vapid-minded head-bobbing yes-man to agree with the fashionably uncritical pro-PLO/PA consensus so popular among less-thoughtful progressives, go knock on some other door. I'm not buying the <bleep> you're selling.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I have a problem with their leadership and their right wing, not Israeli's. How could i dislike a whole population of a nation?
I critisize the group in power, because they have the power. They are running a blockade, they control the airspace, they collect the taxes and hand over what they want to to the Pa, they recieve billions of dollars from us a year while their PM tells us to never scond guess him again. The PA is weak as hell and I have no exectations of them.
I never asked you to not critisize the PA. You just are not being realistic. And the post was full of bullshit complaints about them not saying stuff you think they should say. The right wing here do that to Obama. "You never said Terror Attack!!" "You never once said the word Syria!!!" So what ever.
I can live with you being obtuse just fine, it is something you have to deal with on your own.
And It is hilarious that whoever doesn't agree with Israeli policies gets called something outside of their name like, pro-PLO/PA, pro-Hamas, terror supporter, anti semite, jew baiter, you know , anything to deflect from the real issue. The Occupation.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That fact that he is still being published somewhere ought to be a source of embarrassment.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)American born liberal Zionists like yourself ?
972 embarrasses you .....you would love to see it shut down .... so much for free speech .
Larry Derfner has more rights to be taken seriously than you oberliner .....he lives here ...you dont .
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 30, 2014, 09:04 AM - Edit history (1)
972 doesn't embarrass me, and I do not think it should be shut down. Sometimes they put out some silly stuff, but they also publish a lot of thought-provoking articles and generate some interesting discussions.
They ought to be embarrassed though for publishing Derfner, not because of where he does or doesn't live, but because of his sloppy reporting and lack of truthfulness. If you followed the nonsense with him and Greta Berlin, you would see one of the more prominent examples of what I mean.
Personally, I don't think I should be taken too seriously either and would not expect to be employed as a writer for an Israeli news site. I'm just an American who likes to exchange opinions with folks on a discussion board.
Israeli
(4,151 posts)....you whine about it oberliner.
Personally ...I dont take you too seriously either ... your a classic Centralist ....neither here nor there ... as about as interesting as a bland banana pudding.
That was when it seemed like every single article printed there was republished here. I thought that was a bit much.
I appreciate the banana pudding comparison!
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)"Netanyahu is trying to disseminate fear of the Islamic State led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, but Netanyahu forgets that he himself leads the Jewish state," said Saeb Erekat, the PLO's chief negotiator in peace talks with Israel.
"He wants us to call Israel the Jewish state and supports terrorist settlers who kill, destroy and burn mosques and churches... like Baghdadi's men kill and terrorize," Erekat told AFP.
Addressing the UN General Assembly on Monday, Netanyahu compared Israel's battle against Hamas to that of the US-led one against the brutal IS militants in Iraq and Syria.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=731118
