Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumGuest: How can Israel defend itself without accusations of disproportionality?
JERUSALEM The images of destruction after the battle between the Israel Defense Forces and Hamas that began July 20 in the Shajaiya neighborhood in the Gaza Strip have caused many to declare, in a now-frequent refrain, that the IDF is behaving disproportionately. Some commentators are simply dressing up in sophisticated language their belief that Israel is using excessive force, but others clearly mean to accuse Israel of violating the laws of war specifically, of violating the doctrine of proportionality. These accusations have no merit.
Shajaiya was not just another neighborhood in Gaza, but rather a crown jewel of Hamas effort to intertwine civilians and terrorists to complicate Israels ability to defend itself. Shajaiya was crisscrossed with an elaborate network of underground bunkers and tunnels containing production equipment for the manufacture of rockets, storage facilities for rockets and other weapons, and launching sites from which the rockets were fired at Israeli towns. It was a civilian area where Hamas embedded its most important military capabilities, precisely to encourage condemnation of Israel should the IDF be forced to fight there.
...
Israel had three choices in how to deal with Shajaiya. First, it could have decided that it had every right to use overwhelming force to neutralize the neighborhood with air power, ignoring the question of collateral damage to civilians, much like the Allied bombing campaigns of World War II, or NATOs three-month campaign against Yugoslavia in 1999, in which 40,000 homes were destroyed. This option was not even a consideration for the IDF.
Second, looking at how Hamas had embedded its military capabilities within civilian neighborhoods, Israel could have decided there was nothing it could do, thus allowing Hamas to strike at Israeli population centers with impunity. Such a decision would have granted Hamas a license to kill Israelis, something no Israeli government indeed any accountable democracy could do.
Finally, there was the decision that Israel ultimately made: Separate, as much as possible, the civilian population from the Hamas fighters and arms in their midst. This required getting the Palestinian population to evacuate potential target areas by multiple means: dropping leaflets with evacuation routes, breaking into Hamas radio broadcasts with warnings about specific areas, Arabic-language telephone calls to homes and text messages to cellphones. While the notification process was under way, an Israeli drone would hover over the area that was to be cleared to ensure that residents had left.
Against this Israeli effort, Hamas employed a counter-strategy of trying to prevent civilians from heeding Israeli warnings. On July 8, Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri appeared on local television and called on Gazans to serve as human shields against Israeli air attacks. Hamas enforcers sought to dissuade civilians from fleeing. And, anticipating a ground incursion into neighborhoods like Shajaiya, Hamas booby-trapped whole rows of homes, hoping to collapse them on Israeli soldiers. This only magnified the scale of the destruction.
http://seattletimes.com/html/opinion/2024247536_doregoldopedisraelgaza06xml.html
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dore_Gold
Fozzledick
(3,860 posts)Purely ad hominem deflection with no reference to the content of the post whatever.
As I've noted before, that's what you always do and it adds nothing to the conversation but noise and distraction.
Turbineguy
(37,392 posts)to protect Gaza residents from Israeli attacks. They also have not been able to do much about the unemployment problem there.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Disgusting pov. Murdering children to get to fighters is a cowards way. When you drop bombs on homes, you don't get to complain that the people you murdered made you look bad by dying.
Oh, btw, it's not working. Repeating the same shit over and over. Israel may need some support from us in twenty years but now they probably won't get it. Not from my generation.
And every time i read terror tunnels i think freedom fries.
So then what would Israel have to do iyo to get someone like you on its side?
The tunnels are hardly an impotent excuse for war. If you lived near the exit of one I guarantee you'd take them very seriously.
So what actions should Israel be pursuing in lieu of the current operation?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Along with that we have cartels that kidnap and kill american citizens and Mexicans. We do NOT bomb our neighbors because of the highly militarized cartels. We do not kill children to get to the bad guys. We are working with our neighbor to destroy the tunnels without killing civilians. And the cartels are powerful, wealthy, and more dangerous than Hamas. I would use swat teams funded by the billions of dollars the US gives Israel.
And I would not tell our closest ally to not second guess me. And i would get rid of Likud. Once the right wing is no longer in power, I'd be willing to listen. I see through propaganda. I worked in shady industries so i know bullshit. Can't bullshit my generation by loading us up with propaganda because we fucking google that shit immediately.
Also. I would stop saying human shields. I googled it. The IDF used them and wanted to be allowed to keep using children to open up suspected bombs.
I would stop thinking that anybody who doesn't like what Israel is doing is an anti-Semite. Pisses off people who would otherwise be on your side.
Stop playing the victim is another thing i'd advise. Looks stupid to people who see the dead children killed by grown soldiers.
Pack up all settlements. YES I SAID ALLLLL OF THEM. Stop taking land and oppressing people. Lift the blockade. Because as it is now, we see Israel as a big fucking bully, that occasionally goes into palestine and slaughters a bunch of people to terrorize them into submission. And then steal some more land 'for buffer zones'.
Colonial times are over. Israel needs to catch the fugg up with us. We are waiting. All that arrogance of Israel's leaders leads many to think that the whole nation is full of people who thing we are stupid and that they can just explain away the dead children by screaming HAMAS!
Screaming Hamas every time the IDF kills children is lame and we see it for what it is.
And stop using Frank Luntz playbook. It's making things worse.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)The Mexican govt isn't building these tunnels to commit terrorism against the US as part of a commitment to destroy the United States.
SWAT teams are unrealistic and illegal to send. You could choose a ground invasion by the military of course. But that would still result in high casualties to both sides, as we're seeing.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)That is terrorism. Israel is just as guilty as Palestine. More so since they have more power and have been stealing for years. And they get their terrorism funded by the American taxpayer.
IT WAS A PERFECT ANALOGY.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I edited it. Can you reread and go through the rest of my points please? Thank you kindly.
Yup. You can see right through propaganda alright.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You don't trust Israel's leftist news-source? Hmmm. Interesting.
Sounds like the IDF accuses Hamas of doing what they do.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Where does it say that the IDF wanted to continue using human shields? For that matter, where does it even imply that using HS was ever an accepted policy by the IDF, as opposed to criminal acts committed by individual soldiers? Less than 14 instances in 4 years and the prosecution of IDF soldiers implies the opposite.
I know IDF soldiers have committed this crime. But that's not what I was responding incredulously to. The IDF used them and wanted to be allowed to keep using children to open up suspected bombs?
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I know it's hard to believe that people would do things like this.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)I stand corrected.