Netanyahu addresses Evangelical Christian gathering in Jerusalem

[Scurrilous]

Head of Christians United for Israel, largest pro-Israel lobby in U.S., compares PM to Moses and King David.

<snip>

"American Evangelical pastor John Hagee - who heads the largest pro-Israel lobby group in the United States - half jokingly compared Benjamin Netanyahu to the Messiah on Sunday night, as he waited for the delayed prime minister to arrive at a Jerusalem hotel to address the crowd.

"There's a saying in Judaism about the Messiah - I know that even if he tarries, he'll come," Hagee told hundreds of members of Christians United for Israel. "I know that the prime minister will come, and even if he tarries, he'll come."

The crowd laughed, and so did Hagee. But as Hagee introduced Netanyahu when he finally arrived half an hour later, the comparison with the Messiah no longer seemed so far-fetched.

"He was a fighter in an elite unit and helped free the hostages on the Sabena, and fought in the Yom Kippur War," Hagee began. "As finance minister, he brought Israel from welfare to work (applause). He strengthened the private sector and cut down the public sector. He's married to Sara, and his son Jonathan (sic) is a national Bible champion (applause). He gets up every morning at six to study the Bible with his son (wild applause)...

"He also changed the path of Christianity in America, when he asked me in 2006 if he thought American Christians could unite for Israel," Hagee continued. "Ancient Israel had Moses who led them in the desert; during the golden era they had King David, who conquered Jerusalem, and today, when there are existential threats, Israel has a champion who can confront the challenge; please welcome the prime minister...(more wild applause, whistles, and the sound of a shofar from somewhere)."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-addresses-evangelical-christian-gathering-in-jerusalem-1.419432

[longship]

1. Together let us bring on Armageddon

Then, all you Jewish folk can be converted to Christianity, or rot in Hell.

Maybe that's a bit of a straw man, but many of these lunatic fundies preach precisely that.

[shaayecanaan]

2. Its not really about Christianity...

15% of US citizens identify as being part of the "religious right". However, about half of them aren't actually regular churchgoers, even though invariably they will say that they are, and even those who are are not necessarily morbidly religious. For example, Sarah Palin apparently attends church about four times a year.

The main function of religion in this instance is as an identifier. When identity politics arose in the 1970s, and people began identifying as Black Americans, Native Americans, Cuban Americans and so forth, the people who heretofore had no ethnic identity sought out some signifier by which they could be reckoned amongst this new political landscape.

Their options boiled down to two: white nationalism or evangelical Christianity. To give them some credit, they repudiated the former and chose the latter option. The irony was that notwithstanding the growth of the evangelical movement, the pattern of actual church attendance has been steadily declining. In particular, small traditional churches have suffered the same fate as mom-and-pop shops in the age of Walmart and Starbucks.

The mistake that "atheists" make is in believing that Christians actually adhere to Christian cosmology, and that they actually believe that one day the heavens will open and Jesus will jump out of a cake. Overwhelmingly, however, people sign onto these sorts of things for the sense of community and identity, rather than because they are logically persuaded of the cosmology.

[oberliner]

4. What a disgusting screed

Christian-bashing is alive and well here apparently.

[Ruby the Liberal]

8. Same as it ever was...

[shaayecanaan]

11. Rubbish

I myself am as Christian as the left testicle of Christ himself, and moreover my forbears were Christian at a time when the ancestors of most of the denizens of this forum were probably still killing each other with sharpened sticks.

You just can't handle the swoop and majesty of my hard-hitting opinions.

[oberliner]

16. "They actually believe that one day the heavens will open and Jesus will jump out of a cake"

That's not insulting?

[shaayecanaan]

18. The point of that post was that Christians, by and large...

do not believe in those things in earnest.

[oberliner]

22. No Christians believe that Jesus is going to "jump out of a cake"

Many Christians, however, do believe that Jesus will return to earth.

Can you really claim that you were not mocking believing Christians when you used that "jump out of a cake" phrase?

[COLGATE4]

6. Well, it's not so bad

apparently 144,000 of us will be 'allowed' to convert to Xianity instead of being vaporized. Feel the Xian love!

[longship]

7. My point exactly

And if anybody believes that these people are not a significant portion of our voting public, I don't know where they're getting their information. The problem with that is the data is not conclusive, but there is data to indicate that upwards of a quarter of the US harbor similar beliefs.

[Ken Burch]

14. The bad news, you'd have to become Jehovah's Witnesses.

Apparently, they bought up all 144.000 reserved tickets...

[COLGATE4]

27. Dammit. I KNEW there'd be a catch...

[Ken Burch]

37. If it makes you feel better, after you convert, you can dress like THIS:

[azurnoir]

3. well from the sounds of this speech

Bibi is not just a new Messiah but a Republican Messiah at that

[oberliner]

5. Maybe folks will stop using the phrase "Jewish Lobby" now

In light of these numbers.

[holdencaufield]

9. Probably not...

... because "Methodist Lobby" isn't nearly as sinister sounding.

[Ken Burch]

12. I've walked through a few Methodist lobbies in my day...

...generally, they were tastefully understated, with subdued colors and nice wood-paneled floors...

[amandabeech]

24. I attended Methodist churches for many years in my youth.

I was never in a Methodist church in which someone like Hagee would be allowed to guide the congregation or to preach a special sermon.

Please don't implicate a main-stream Protestant denomination with right-wing Christian beliefs.

[shaayecanaan]

10. Well, the term used is generally "the Israel lobby"

and most people who have written at length about it (Walt and Mearsheimer for instance) have quite readily conceded that Christian Zionists are part and parcel of that lobby.

As I've probably made apparent, I don't think that they amount to much. If I had to name the top priorities of the Christian right there would be abortion and gay marriage, pornography and censorship issues, then running down the list - education (including sex education and Darwinism), other conservative social and economic policies and then probably foreign policy issues such as Israel and probably Sudan too when they can be bothered to remember that as well.

Of course, that doesn't mean that right-wing Christians are not an important audience for the Israel lobby - in fact I think that they are probably their most important audience - but I do not think that they constitute part of that lobby, by and large.

In contrast, the blue-blooded WASP churches such as the Episcopalians and Presbyterians sympathise with the Palestinians. Does that mean that they constitute a "Palestine lobby"? Probably not. Its hardly their bread and butter, after all.

To put it in some context - the CUFI annual summit attracted 5,000 people, some of whom were probably Jewish well-wishers. The largest evangelical congregations in the United States attract ten times that number for Sunday sermons each week.

Or to put it in another context - the Netherlands, the Philippines and quite a few other countries have prominent evangelical Christian movements. AFAIK none of them bother to mention Israel very frequently. I imagine that in the case of the United States people like Chuck Hagee have their own reasons for aligning themselves with the Israel lobby, none of which have anything much to do with Israel. And I suspect that Dore Gold and the other hasbarados that solicit Christians have their own reasons as well, none of which have much to do with Chuck Hagee's awesome lobbying power.

[oberliner]

17. Top EU official defends ‘Jewish lobby’ remarks

EU trade chief Karel De Gucht sparked outrage Friday by referring to the power of the “Jewish lobby” in U.S. policy and the difficulty of having “rational” discussions with Jews on the Middle East.

http://life.nationalpost.com/2010/09/03/top-eu-official-defends-%E2%80%98jewish-lobby%E2%80%99-remarks/

[shaayecanaan]

23. Would using the phrase "Arab lobby" rather than "Palestine lobby" upset you? (nt)

[oberliner]

31. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about

What a ridiculous series of stereotypical nonsense statements.

From where would you derive any of this garbage?

[oberliner]

36. I reiterate - you are off in another world with these assumptions

I think I have a very good handle on the reality and the history of the region. I daresay I have studied the subject at least as extensively as you have, if not more so. And have spent a good deal more time with actual Israelis and Palestinians than I imagine you have.

[oberliner]

32. In relation to what?

I don't understand the question.

[shaayecanaan]

33. You seem to have a problem with the phrase "the Jewish lobby"

There is something of a "Palestine lobby" in the US, although of course it is rather low-rent compared to AIPAC and the like. I would say that probably the most important group in the Palestine lobby is the American Task Force on Palestine (the ATFP), and after that probably the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee (the ADC). There is also James Zogby's Arab American Institute.

The groups that make up the Palestine lobby are essentially Arab, although just like the Israel lobby there are certain largely white Christian groups that tend to sympathise with them.

As such, I have no problems with referring to those groups collectively as "the Arab lobby" although I suppose it risks being confused with the registered foreign lobbyists that work on behalf of Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Still, it is probably as good a name as any, particularly when you consider that the ADC and other Arab-American groups are not solely confined to the Israel-Palestine issue.

I suppose what I am saying is that if you can refer to the Armenian groups as "the Armenian lobby" and to Cuban groups as "the Cuban lobby" and to Arab groups as "the Arab lobby" then I cannot understand your plenary objection to using the phrase "the Jewish lobby".

[oberliner]

35. OK - I understand now

If an organization that was devoted to lobbying for Palestinian issues and causes was referred to as "Arab Lobby" rather than "Palestinian Lobby" that would disturb me as well, but I don't think I've ever seen that happen.

Especially as many such groups are comprised of large numbers of people who are neither Arab nor Palestinian.

It is the issue or cause that is the defining characteristic of the organization.

The Saudi Lobby sometimes mistakenly (or deliberately?) gets called the Arab Lobby, and that does annoy me as many people seem to tip-toe around the idea of Saudi Arabia having so much influence on the US. Especially considering their lack of democratic values and general disdain for basic human rights.

[shaayecanaan]

38. I quite agree with you...

The Saudi lobby is quite significant and generally is able to prevail whenever the Israel lobby objects to the purchase of US weapons by the Saudi military, although given that the focus by Israel has shifted to Iran the Israelis now seem relatively happy for the Saudis to receive whatever kit they can get.

The Saudi lobby has also been quite effective in stifling US criticism of either the Saudi or the Bahraini autocracies. I think their influence on US policy on balance is clearly negative.

It is quite legitimate for you to object to the power and influence of the Saudi lobby considering the downsides that it has for the US, particularly as it shows up the lack of a US commitment to democracy. It is also quite legitimate for others to point out that at least the Saudi relationship is strategically advantageous for the US, in that it provides energy security in terms of Saudi oil, whereas the relationship with Israel comes with no such benefit.

Its also worth noting that money alone will only get you so far. The most effective interest lobby in the US, as judged by members of Congress, is the American Association for Retired Persons. They have influence not only because they have money, or even because they influence votes, but because they have moral suasion, the mother's milk of lobbying. Medical lobbies such as the AMA, Police Unions, Nurses and Teachers Unions are effective because people actually like doctors and police. That gives them the ability to act in the open whereas other unions and lobbies must stay in the dark.

No one in Congress wants to be seen to oppose the interests of seniors. Being anti-old people is a non-starter, even amongst those that are not old people. In the same way, being anti-Jewish (or just being perceived as such) is a monkey on any candidate's back, even if they are in a district with hardly any Jews. Its worth noting that AIPAC generally comes a close second to AARP in the annual survey of lobbies.

[amandabeech]

25. I sincerely doubt that many sermons preached in Episcopalian or Presbyterian congregations have been

pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli for that matter. If you have evidence otherwise, please provide it.

Technically the Presbyterian Church is the Church of Scotland in the U.S. Scottish people do not consider themselves to be Anglo-Saxons. Quite the contrary.

Furthermore, not everyone who attends Episcopalian services has any English heritage at all, as many attending Presbyterian services do not have Scottish heritage. Nor is everyone upper middle class or wealthy.

I am truly saddened by the prejudice and stereotyping of Protestants in your post and in another in this thread.

Good-day.

[shaayecanaan]

26. its nice to see that casual observers drop by sometimes...

Otherwise it would just be the same twelve people butting heads all the time. A pretty futile situation really, and almost suggestive of some kind of codependency type mental problem amongst the regulars here. But I digress.

The Presbyterian church in the us has generally been quite sympathetic to the Palestinians. They were one of the first institutions to call for a Palestinian state back in the 1980s. The anti-defamation league, bless their hearts, actually opened a file on the head of the general synod of the Presbyterian church after he expressed the sentiment that a Palestinian state might not be such a bad idea.

You might want to read this wiki article, and also possibly develop a thicker skin. Things are a little bit more rough and tumble here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_(USA)_disinvestment_from_Israel_controversy

[amandabeech]

28. Thank you for the information.

As to my thin thickness, I'm quite satisfied.

But I think that I've had enough casual observing for awhile, and I'll be off to my usual haunts.

[shaayecanaan]

29. Go in peace (nt)

[Ken Burch]

13. Other than a few right-wing crazies, NOBODY uses the phrase "Jewish Lobby"

And progressive people, in particular, don't see "Israel" as synonymous with "Judaism" or "Jewishness".

...so can we all move on on that point?

[oberliner]

15. Right-wing crazies like Desmond Tutu?

Come on now.

[Ken Burch]

19. Did Tutu say "Jewish" or "Pro-Israel"?

There's a huge difference betweeen the two.

You know perfectly well that Desmond Tutu is not an antisemite, or a bigot of any stripe. He just gets singled out on this because he dared to speak out about what's been done to the Palestinians.

[Shaktimaan]

20. But then why just him?

Tons of people critique Israel over the IP conflict every day.
Why is it that only Desmond Tutu is singled out and labeled an anti-Semite?

Oh, and btw, he did say "Jewish Lobby." But he also reassured everyone that he's mot anti-semitic or racist in any way. whatsoever.

-----

Archbishop Tutu said his criticism of the Israeli Government did not mean he was anti-Semitic.

"I am not even anti-white, despite the madness of that group," he said.

-----

Spoken like a true diplomat. Truly, who here could fail to rust the man after knowing this?

[oberliner]

21. He said "Jewish Lobby"

I didn't call him an antisemite or a bigot of any stripe.

In fact, it was you who said that only right-wing crazies use the term "Jewish Lobby".

I am using Desmond Tutu as an example of someone who is not a right-winger but who has used the term, "Jewish Lobby".