Israel Sets Off Awkward Debate By Demanding Recognition As A 'Jewish State'

[Purveyor]

Dan Perry, The Associated Press | Feb 20, 2014 | Last Updated: Feb 20, 2014 - 8:40 UTC

JERUSALEM - Is Israel "the Jewish state"?

The answer may seem as obvious as the Star of David on the Israeli flag. Yet the question is starting to complicate the ambitious U.S. effort to ram through a peace deal between the Palestinians and Israel.

A broad-based group of Israelis plans to lobby the Knesset to declare the country, for the first time, a Jewish state by law. And Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has demanded that the Palestinians recognize Israel's Jewish status explicitly as part of any agreement.

"This is the Jewish land. This is the Jewish state," he said in a speech this week to assembled U.S. Jewish leaders. "When we make an agreement it is an agreement between the nation state of the Jewish people and a nation state of the Palestinian people."

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http://www.windsorstar.com/life/Israel+sets+awkward+debate+demanding+recognition+Jewish+state/9531060/story.html

[Jefferson23]

1. I am curious to hear the voices from all secular Israeli Jews on this one...good luck, Bibi. n/t

[sabbat hunter]

2. couple of things

1) his current coalition partner of Yisrael Beiteinu is a secular party (as is Likud). In fact Yisrael Beiteinu is so secular that they pushed that no one is exempt form military service due to religious reasons (like the ultra religious who in the past used 'torah studies' to avoid military service.
2) Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu both claim to want to limit the powers of the rabbinate


So I am not sure how they equate their supposed secular viewpoint with a demand that Israel is recognized as "the jewish state". By demanding that it be called "the jewish state", seems to be a pander to the ultra religious.

I think a better terminology to be used, and I think is something that the Palestinians should be able to, is to recognize that Israel is the Jewish homeland. To me it gives the recognition that Likud Yisrael Beiteinu is looking for, without making it seem like Israel is only for Jews by calling it a Jewish state.

It is a bit of semantics, but I think it allows both sides to claim that they won that point in negotiations (Which is what negotiations is often about.)
Now of course is assuming that Bibi is actually serious about negotiating.

As a side note, I think one of the few things that Yisrael Beiteinu has right, is to break the power of the rabbinate. In fact if it wasn't for their extreme nationalism, there are probably a lot of points in their platform that many on the left would find interesting. But the party's nationalism is so extreme it overshadows everything else in its platform.

[Israeli]

12. Likud are not secular sabbat hunter....

their voting base is ' Traditional ' Mizrahi poor ...add to that the Feigliners who have been trying to take over the party for years now .

ref : http://www.timesofisrael.com/traditional-jews-vote-likud-beytenu-while-the-orthodox-choose-bennett/

ref : http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/fa/contents/articles/opinion/2013/03/netanyahus-honey-trap.html#

Yisrael Beiteinu's voting base are Russian immigrants ... " they equate their supposed secular viewpoint with a demand that Israel is recognized as "the jewish state" "....because in Russia that was all important to them ...its what put them apart and why they came here .
They want to limit the power of the rabbinate because they demean them ...dont class them as ' real Jews ' etc etc .

I think a better terminology to be used is Israel or Israeli period .

ref : http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1391788617/

[sabbat hunter]

16. well let me define secular better then

A party like Shas or United Torah are religious parties that cater to religious causes and wants.

Likud aims are secular based. Just because the base is Mizrahi as opposed to eastern European jews does not mean it is a religious based party.

Shas was formed for the religious Mizrahi (sephardic) Jews.

[Israeli]

17. Try here ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism_in_Israel

Traditional[edit]Masorti/Traditional Jews make up 38.5% of the Jewish population in Israel.[11] This is the second largest group. Many of these "traditional Jews" differ from the Orthodox only because they will drive their cars on the Sabbath, use electricity, watch television, or go to a soccer game or the beach, frequently after attending religious services in the morning and the evening before. Many of the men wrap tefillin every morning, others cover the spectrum of observance. What is critical is that all are committed to a major religious component in the definition of their Jewishness and the Jewishness of the Jewish state.[13] Traditional Jews make up most of the Likud political party.[14]

Shas is Orthodox Mizrahi .....Likud is mixed Mizrahi and Ashkanazi ' Traditional ' ... they dont like being described as secular sabbat hunter ... to them the term secular belongs to the godless Left .

You have never been here have you ?

[sabbat hunter]

18. Actually

I had my bar-mitzvah at the wailing wall (by a Sephardi rabbi although my family is Ashkenazi )

Likud's platform is based on secular ideas, not religious ones. That makes it a secular party, even though the majority of people that identify with it are "traditional Jews".

If it was a religious party, its platform would be based on religious ideas. For example

[Israeli]

21. Okay ....

if you say so ....youre the expert .

However, perhaps you should let Likud MK Moshe Feiglin know that his party is secular

ref : http://www.jewishisrael.org/

and study the Likud's history a little deeper :

Historically, the Likud and its pre-1948 predecessor, the Revisionist movement advocated secular nationalism. However, the Likud's first Prime Minister and long-time leader Menahem Begin, though secular himself, cultivated a warm attitude to Jewish tradition and appreciation for traditionally religious Jews—especially from North Africa and the Middle East. This segment of the Israeli population first brought the Likud to power in 1977. Many Orthodox Israelis find the Likud a more congenial party than any other mainstream party, and in recent years also a large group of Haredim, mostly modern Haredim, joined the party and established The Haredi faction in the Likud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Likud

[MADem]

3. The Arab Israelis might have a bone to pick, there....nt

[sabbat hunter]

4. I think that

jewish homeland simply would be a recognition by the PA of what Israel was founded upon. The idea of it being a homeland for Jews.

It would not exclude Israeli Arabs from also calling it home.

[MADem]

5. I think there needs to be some clear language there, otherwise it's an exclusionary exercise.

Or it has potential to be.

I just wish there'd be peace in the valley, as Elvis sang....

[azurnoir]

6. why then does the Israeli government feel it necessary to on official ID's

to state whether or not the person is Jewish?
Also why must the Palestinians define Israel?

[sabbat hunter]

7. I think it is wrong that

The Israeli government should not state on their IDs if they are Jewish or not. It is absolutely wrong.

And I do not think it is a matter of the Palestinians defining Israel, but the PA (ie the government of the Palestinians), to at least recognize the grounds on which Israel was founded. I think that matters to a lot of secular Jews.

[azurnoir]

8. The PLO recognized Israel's 'right to exist' over 20 years ago

This Jewish State recognition was a caveat added on by Netanyahu

[sabbat hunter]

9. I realize that

but I think putting the jewish homeland part in to a treaty, might be a compromise with what Bibi is demanding and what the PA can reasonably be expected to agree to.

[azurnoir]

15. well it might be enough but IMO Bibi's looking for more

now if Israel or the Israeli government wants to call itself the Jewish state that's one thing however to require another country to do that as a price tag for it's existence is quite another

OT and on a side note I want to Thank you for one of the most reasoned civil discussions I've seen here in quite some time

[Mosby]

20. Israel stopped including "ethnicity" on the ID card in 2005.

[azurnoir]

22. Kibbutzim: "Israeli", not "Jewish" on Identity Cards First Publish: 10/30/2013, 3:45 AM

The Kibbutz movement is holding a meeting this Sunday discussing the initiative to change the Nationality category on Israeli identification cards (Teudat Zehut) from "Jewish" to "Israeli".

Dr. Hen Yehezkely, the son of writer Motke Yehezkely, claimed in a statement to Arutz 7 that Israel belongs to all of its citizens, not just Jews. "The question of identity has been advanced in a legal petition by the organization 'I am Israeli'," an organization which aims to orient the State's national identity around an Israeli national pride, not a specifically Jewish pride. "The Supreme Court has refused to make 'Israeli' a nationality," Yehezkely claims, "and we object to that."

Yehezkely called the move anti-Semitic, comparing it to the idea of "the US not being identified as 'American'" and claiming that the refusal constitutes the root "of all of Israel's tragedies" and that it "perpetuates the discrimination between us and the [Palestinian] Arabs."

In response, Kibbutz Movement member, former MK, and res. Colonel Moshe Peled stated that Motke Yehezkely would be horrified by his son's initiative, especially when announced during a memorial ceremony for him, just as he is "also sure that [murdered Prime Minister] Yitzhak Rabin would be embarrassed by what the extreme Left is doing on his memorial day."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/173373#.Uwe6roXA8-s

The state's registration which serves as the basis for the data in the Identity Cards still indicates the ethnicity of each person, and this information is available upon request in certain circumstances determined by the registration law.

An amendment to the Israeli registration law approved by the Knesset in 2007 determines that a Jew may ask to remove the Hebrew date from his entry, and consequently from his Identity Card. This is due to errors that often occur in the registration of the Hebrew date because the Hebrew calendar day starts at sunset and not at midnight. The amendment also introduces an explicit definition for the term "a day according to the Hebrew calendar".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_identity_card

[Mosby]

24. from the wiki link

"As of 2005, the ethnicity has not been printed; a line of eight asterisks appears instead. The bearer's ethnic identity can nevertheless be inferred by other data - the Hebrew calendar's date of birth is often used for Jews, and also, each community has its typical first and last names."

[azurnoir]

25. Then explain the 10/2013 date on the Arutz Sheva link?

or are we playing semantics between nationality and ethnicity?

[Scootaloo]

10. Actually it is by definition exclusionary

If you define a nation by a single ethnic group, you are by definition excluding people not of that ethnic group.

Also, whatever Israel wants to call itself is not up to the Palestinians, nor do their rights hinge upon it. It's a bullshit demand; Israel might as well demand that every meeting open with the Palestinian delegation whistling "Dixie" before being seated.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

11. America is not the "Christian State" or "Protestant State", although I am sure

there are a few crazies who would welcome that.

America is an all-inclusive state, and although it has had its share of dark times it has prevailed, and will continue to do so.

Imagine if America demanded that title, "Christian State" from Mexico, Canada or Cuba? We would be considered a laughing stock.


What a farce Israel has become with this nonsense.

[Israeli]

14. and with you .

[Mosby]

19. do you feel the same way about all countries with state religions?

Like India, Germany, England, Italy just to name a few.

Or is is just Israel that's a farce?

[azurnoir]

23. That's nice except India, Germany, and Italy do not have state religions n/t

[Mosby]

26. sure they do

Pop quiz:

What's the name of Angela Merkel's party?

[azurnoir]

27. yawn present actual exidence please eh?

BTW Merkles party is the Christian Democratic Union however that does not equate to a state religion

[Scootaloo]

29. Wow Mosby. Even for you, that's an astounding level of ignorance

Germany's christian Democrat party is a political party, not a state religion. Nor, truthfully is it particularly religious; it's multidenominational in membership and really only refers to Christianity as a base for belief in common human dignity. It certainly isn't calling for the establishment of a state church.

India does not have a state religion. Nor does Italy. The Anglican church is the official church of England - but not the United Kingdom. Aside from the Queen's title as "Defender of the Faith" and 29 seats in the House of Lords, it's a pretty meaningless recognition.

I find it interesting that you didn't name any of the very charming nations that DO have standing and meaningful state religions, like Cambodia, Somalia, and Yemen.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

32. Some just need to lie through their fingertips as often as they can, Scoot.

It's easier to them than actually having to have a open and honest debate.

[Israeli]

13. totally agree with you ...nt .

[on point]

28. Time for a single secular state called palestine

[sabbat hunter]

30. You really think that

Israel would ever agree to that? Or that any attempt at imposing it wouldn't cause a massive civil war? Or what about the fact that you have political parties like Hamas that want to impose sharia law ?

[on point]

31. Shows exactly why separation o church n state is essential to success