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[King_David]

This message was self-deleted by its author (King_David) on Wed Dec 11, 2013, 12:06 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Jefferson23]

1. An Evangelical who does not say where he has been on his visits to Israel..hmm.

While international law tolerates military occupation, it does not approve it, specifically one that has continued for over 40 years as in the case of Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory. Furthermore, during that time, Israel has introduced two other elements—colonialism and apartheid. Although there are many similarities between apartheid as it was applied in South Africa and Israel’s policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, the systems are not identical. There are features of the Israeli regime in the occupied territory that were unknown to South Africans. This year’s Hisham B. Sharabi Memorial Lecture was delivered by Professor John Dugard.

snip* I think it’s important to stress that there are major differences between apartheid as it was applied in South Africa and the policies and practices in the occupied territories. The systems are clearly not identical. But there are many similar features. I would just like to speak about what I regard as the three dominant features of apartheid in South Africa and examine the extent to which they apply in the Palestinian territory. First of all, there was what was known as “grand apartheid”; that was territorial separation. Then, there was what was incorrectly described as “petty apartheid,” which was racial discrimination. And then thirdly, there were the security laws.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/display/ContentDetails/i/5191/pid/3584

[azurnoir]

4. we've heard Meshoes praise sung before

the source should be no surprise along with the Palestinians as Nazi's commentary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=49766

[Jefferson23]

6. lol, I should have known.

thanks,

[oberliner]

7. How about Richard Goldstone?

Israel and the Apartheid Slander

By RICHARD J. GOLDSTONE

Excerpt:

One particularly pernicious and enduring canard that is surfacing again is that Israel pursues “apartheid” policies. In Cape Town starting on Saturday, a London-based nongovernmental organization called the Russell Tribunal on Palestine will hold a “hearing” on whether Israel is guilty of the crime of apartheid. It is not a “tribunal.” The “evidence” is going to be one-sided and the members of the “jury” are critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known.

While “apartheid” can have broader meaning, its use is meant to evoke the situation in pre-1994 South Africa. It is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations.

I know all too well the cruelty of South Africa’s abhorrent apartheid system, under which human beings characterized as black had no rights to vote, hold political office, use “white” toilets or beaches, marry whites, live in whites-only areas or even be there without a “pass.” Blacks critically injured in car accidents were left to bleed to death if there was no “black” ambulance to rush them to a “black” hospital. “White” hospitals were prohibited from saving their lives.

In assessing the accusation that Israel pursues apartheid policies, which are by definition primarily about race or ethnicity, it is important first to distinguish between the situations in Israel, where Arabs are citizens, and in West Bank areas that remain under Israeli control in the absence of a peace agreement.

In Israel, there is no apartheid. Nothing there comes close to the definition of apartheid under the 1998 Rome Statute: “Inhumane acts ... committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.” Israeli Arabs — 20 percent of Israel’s population — vote, have political parties and representatives in the Knesset and occupy positions of acclaim, including on its Supreme Court. Arab patients lie alongside Jewish patients in Israeli hospitals, receiving identical treatment.

<End of Excerpt>

Richard J. Goldstone, a former justice of the South African Constitutional Court, led the United Nations fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict of 2008-9.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-the-apartheid-slander.html?_r=0

[Jefferson23]

9. What about him? He is a serious man who changed his view on OCL, did he not?

For the sake of argument, lets say he was not apart of the review of OCL and look at what Dugard
has made clear are some of the distinctions.

Have you read/listened to Dugard, in full? I have, and am happy to discuss it.

Looking at Goldtsone: The situation in the West Bank is more complex. But here too there is no intent to maintain “an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group.” This is a critical distinction, even if Israel acts oppressively toward Palestinians there. South Africa’s enforced racial separation was intended to permanently benefit the white minority, to the detriment of other races. By contrast, Israel has agreed in concept to the existence of a Palestinian state in Gaza and almost all of the West Bank, and is calling for the Palestinians to negotiate the parameters.

But until there is a two-state peace, or at least as long as Israel’s citizens remain under threat of attacks from the West Bank and Gaza, Israel will see roadblocks and similar measures as necessary for self-defense, even as Palestinians feel oppressed. As things stand, attacks from one side are met by counterattacks from the other. And the deep disputes, claims and counterclaims are only hardened when the offensive analogy of “apartheid” is invoked.

There is no intent to maintain?? I cannot take any such statement seriously, the evidence does not support him.
He may feel there is no intent, does not make his assessment accurate.

Israel is calling for the Palestinians to negotiate?? This is willful bullshit...sorry.

[oberliner]

12. Is his opinion on the analogy valid to you?

It seems like you are pretty dismissive, but I would think he has more expertise on the subject than either one of us.

Why do you think he and Dugard come to different conclusions on this?

[Jefferson23]

13. Goldstone has more expertise rendering you incapable of weighing in on facts he claims not to

be aware of/admits to/does not have access to?

He knows or should that there is and has been a prevailing policy to disenfranchise the Palestinians.
That would only be a beginning point, he seems incapable of speaking about what it is that has
kept the Israeli government from a peace settlement..why is that?

I do not see that Dugard has ignored the details of the distinctions of south african apartheid
and Israel..quite the contrary, it is well thought out and researched..as opposed to an OP ed
from Goldstone which is dismissive of documented facts one could attain directly from Israel's
own government websites.

[rdharma]

2. Who should I believe..... Bishop Desmond Tutu or Kenneth Meshoe?

It's a "no-brainer" when you know where this pastor Kenneth Meshoe is coming from!

[azurnoir]

5. Desmond Tutu or Kenneth Meshoe oh let me guess

[oberliner]

8. How about Richard Goldstone?

See excerpts above.

[azurnoir]

15. you mean the one I posted I've seen it :)

[rdharma]

10. Well, then let me give you a clue.......

....not the crazy "Christian" fundamentalist!

Israel made a big mistake by supporting the apartheid regime of South Africa.

With the recent death of Nelson Mandela, this is probably not a good time for a historical revision thread like this.

[Scootaloo]

11. Oh look, David's fawning over a gay-hating right-wing fundie nitwit. Again.

I'm going to extend thim the benefit of the doubt that he just didn't know that he had a gay-hating right-wing fundie nitwit on his hands. Again.

You gotta start checking your sources, Dave, your blithe blundering is starting to accidentally look like a highly predictable pattern.

[azurnoir]

16. A link? here's 3 links

"Archbishop Desmond Tutu is out of order when he alleged that God is a homophobic God, and that he finds fault with scriptures that teach that homosexual life style is a sin before God," the African Christian Democratic Party leader was quoted as saying.

"We ask Archbishop Tutu not to confuse people who respect the scriptures, and advised him to keep his unbelief to himself if he does not believe in the teaching of the Holy Bible."

He was reacting to Tutu's comments on Friday, at the launch of a United Nations campaign to promote the fair treatment of lesbians and gays.

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2013/07/31/meshoe-slams-tutu-about-gays-comment

The party that Meshoe heads

The African Christian Democratic Party is a South African political party founded in 1993. It consists mainly of conservative Christians and its doctrine concentrates mostly on social issues such as abortion, homosexuality and pornography.


The party states that its platform is based on the biblical standard of reconciliation, justice, compassion, tolerance, peace and the sanctity of life, the individual, the family and community.

With regard to the sanctity of life, they are pro-life[2] except with respect to the death penalty[3] for certain heinous crimes.[4]

The ACDP was the only party to vote against the adoption of the final version of the South African Constitution, for reason that it enshrined abortion on demand and the specific protection of sexual orientation.

Its 2000 manifesto opposed the promotion of condoms and safe sex as a way of preventing HIV transmission: "The ACDP feel strongly that the condom campaign must be abandoned and that abstinence and faithfulness in marriage must be promoted." The party supports abstinence-only policy.

The group is opposed to maintaining the current age of consent, and implies that the reason it has not been raised is because so-called "aggressive homosexual activists" would be prevented from sleeping with young boys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Christian_Democratic_Party

this is from 2006 however it is along the same lines as the otherws

Home affairs minister, Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula, says South Africa needs to distinguish itself from its "painful past", by declaring that no South African should be discriminated against on the basis of color, creed, culture and sex. Not everyone's happy though. Kenneth Meshoe, a Christian politician, said that South Africa "was provoking God's anger."

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/15/insider.gay/index.html

perhaps now you can get where Meshoe is coming from

[King_David]

21. Thank you and you right I should of researched the nasty dude before posting ,

I don't keep up with South African politics and politicians as much as I should ...
This guys nasty...