Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumNorman throws the BDS/one state nuts under the Finkelstein bus!
Last edited Fri Feb 17, 2012, 06:22 PM - Edit history (5)
The full 30 min video was taken down on Youtube but it's up on vimeo for now:
http://vimeo.com/36854424
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)BDS, I have said in the past what would have had more impact is if they kept it confined
to the settlers..I think a larger percentage of people could have supported
that approach. As far as his conclusions, I don't know..I always thought BDS held out
on their statement or non statement about two states because they were trying to achieve
leverage on a reasonable number regarding right of return.
Mosby, you have a link to the video?
Mosby
(16,310 posts)start the video and then hover the mouse near the bottom and click where it says "youtube" that will take you to the video.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)I'm impressed...
shira
(30,109 posts)Finkelstein reminds me of Hamas. I respect Hamas more than the fake humanitarians. Hamas is very clear WRT their intentions. The cultists have the same intentions but cannot be honest about it, for obvious reasons.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)In case you have an alternate copy?
Mosby
(16,310 posts)Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)It's pretty obvious the BDS cultists didn't want this video going viral. It's toxic to the cause. It's really a shame these totalitarian nutcases can't censor or arrest people for posting alternate links that expose them for the rightwing enabling frauds they are. Total unity is needed!
I'm betting they'll try to get youtube to take this one down too. Too bad other websites are copying the video and posting in places other than youtube.
shira
(30,109 posts)Final comment on removal of Finkelstein BDS video.
Norman Finkelstein contacted me (a common friend was also involved in discussion) and asked me to delete video from youtube account because "video did some harm" (his words). I agreed to do so because I think that, at the end of the day, video ended up creating a fuss/controversy but not much else and my intention was never to divert some people minds from what is really important: daily solidarity with the Palestinian People.
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/02/norman-finkelstein-slams-the-bds-movement-calling-it-a-cult.html
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the minds that were touched by the video are those that constantly look for either diversion or failing that look to delegitimize and/or demonize the Palestinians
thanks for the link shira
pelsar
(12,283 posts)but that is exactly what he is talking about......the whole concept that the "cultist" are not at all interested in being realistic and can't stand anything or anybody that doesn't follow the prescribed path.
not to mention that 'anything goes"......make up anything, use partial events, leave out crucial information, ignore "recants" from those who were caught lying and making up stuff...
he's right, the more the cults do that, the more they lose.....
i do believe he described your posts and attitude exactly..i mean he got it down perfectly didn't he?
____
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Finkelstein called it quite right we believe the same but for quite different reasons but do keep latching on its fun and proves even more that Finkelstein was right
pelsar
(12,283 posts)to discuss the various aspects, the motivations and most interesting of all the groups involved. The very fact that he asked (pressured) to remove it, just show how intolerant those various groups are...he called it right, its the cultist that are the intolerant, its the religious.....and the state that they want to create is a mirror image of that....
tolerance is a liberal value, and that involves being patient enough to listen and defend other viewpoints.....
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... is right twice a day.
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)I am no fan of Finkelstein on a number of grounds; but he is a long-time supporter of a two-state solution.
pelsar
(12,283 posts)its the way he made it clear, at least during the interview, that its not "treason" to question the motives of some of the 'pro Palestinian groups" and their end game
He called out some groups to clarify their stance.....something they prefer not to do. It reminds me of so many other groups, the two obvious groups being the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas. They keep their real intentions off the main screen radar (even though if one is interested its not hard to find), so that they can get as many supporters as possible, (useful idiotes) and then once in power, or on the way, they get to clarify their real objectives and toss off those that helped (we've seen it in iran, in egypt, with hamas....its just keeps on happening over and over and over again)
He called out the BDS movement on exactly that aspect....and they "shut him up".
whereas he gets some serious credits for exercising his freedom of speech, he loses it all, because of succumbing to pressure from those who are against such freedoms "for the cause".
ironic, he lambast israel, but can't lambast those who are against the very basic freedoms of speech.....
So what else is new?
Mosby
(16,310 posts)What a bizarre debating tactic, calling a lifelong progressive like Finkelstein a RWer.
How rude!
http://972mag.com/in-flinching-move-finkelstein-slams-boycott-movement/35497/
pelsar
(12,283 posts)its classic "cult" mentality and as about as far from liberalism as one can get: Voice a different opinion and your "out" a traitor" a "right-winger".....
and then these "cultists" and others talk about "democracy, civil rights.....they don't seem to have even the smallest bit of tolerance of any voice other than then own...hardly the base for creating democracy or society based on civil rights....
Apparently they're not as smart as those of the Muslim Brotherhood or hamas, who know how to keep the "head down" gain support from a wide spectrum of groups (useful idiotes) and then patiently wait for the time to make their move and slowly free up their agenda.....
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 21, 2012, 09:34 AM - Edit history (3)
The totalitarians (both right and left) only use democratic/liberal/humanitarian values to serve their interests, but not when it's applied to their own behavior. They're outraged at their enemies' actions or beliefs, but not their own even when their own actions or beliefs are far worse. They rely on useful idiots to help them, etc...
shira
(30,109 posts)Norman Finkelstein is an unpopular man. Norman Finkelstein has always been an unpopular man, but for decades he had a cult following among leftists and supporters of the Palestinian cause. Since coming out in 2012 against the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, however, he has alienated his core followers. A few years ago, Finkelstein tells me, he made $40,000 in speaking fees from 80 talks to Palestinian Solidarity groups around North America. This past year when I went to my accountant, he said, I think theres a mistake, because theres only $2,000. He laughs. I told him there was no error. He said, What happened? I thought to myself: Am I going to explain to him BDS?
.....ll that changed in February 2012. Finkelstein had become concerned with the international pro-Palestinian communitys embrace of BDSit has become the preferred solution among activists on campuses and much of the Palestinian diaspora. He feels the position is inconsistent with international laws recognition of Israels existence. In an interview with a French pro-Palestinian activist, Finkelstein declared his opposition to BDSand did so in the same inflammatory language he had been using for decades to describe Israel and its supporters. I loathe the disingenuousnessthey dont want Israel [to exist], he said. Its a cult. He had spent his time in a self-deceptive Maoist cult, he said; he wouldnt do it again. He accused BDS activists of inflating the numbers of Palestinian refugees and want[ing] to create terror in the hearts of every Israeli rather than resolve the conflict. Im not going to tolerate what I think is silliness, childishness, and a lot of left-wing posturing, he said.
The reaction among his supporters was disbelief and fury. He was called a Zionist bully, an angry right wing pundit, someone who opposes rights for all Palestinians, and, in what was surely the biggest insult to him, a comrade at heart with Alan Dershowitz. Finkelsteins primary source of income, his speaking fees, plummeted. He has since repeated his criticisms, and as a result has become nearly as unwelcome among supporters of Palestinians as he is among Israeli partisans.
Indeed, the response from Israels supporters to Finkelsteins comments ranged from glee at the infighting among Palestinian advocates to puzzlement at what they see as Finkelsteins newfound reasonableness. I dont understandhe consorts with Hamas, hes hostile to Israel in every possible way, and yet he comes up short on this one, says Daniel Pipes, president of the Middle East Forum, a conservative think tank.
I made significant errors of political judgment when I was a Maoist, and I think the same thing can be said of the activists in the BDS movement. I dont think its my responsibility to just be a cheerleader.
BDS advocates say that the campaign for a two-state solution has brought nothing for Palestinians but a more entrenched Israeli occupation of their lands. They chalk up Finkelsteins old-fashioned support for a two-state solution to his age or desire for attention. There was a time when Norman Finkelstein was one of the loudest and one of the only voices on this issue, says Rania Khalek, an editor at The Electronic Intifada. Hes done incredibly valuable work, but with BDS growing, other people besides him are at the center who are most important. There are a number of people among an older generation of activists and advocates who were not quite prepared by the younger caste who have a strong message but differences in tactics, says Yousef Munayyer, a leading Palestinian-American activist.
Indeed, Noam Chomsky has also come out against BDS in support of Israels existence. He calls the attacks on Finkelstein completely uncalled for, indeed outrageous. He says that Finkelstein had cogent and rational arguments and has done more for the Palestine cause than all those who launched these disgraceful attacks combined. Hussein Ibish, an Arab-American scholar who supports a two-state solution, says that Finkelstein and Chomsky have enough experience and have their ear to the ground to see that the one-state effort is quixotic. BDSs hysterical reaction to Finkelstein was inevitable, because its much closer to a religion than it is to a political idea.
Finkelstein is unrepentant. I made significant errors of political judgment when I was a Maoist, and I think the same thing can be said of the activists in the BDS movement, he says. Theyre committed, theyve accomplished and achieved many significant results, but I also think theyve made errors of judgment, and I dont think its my responsibility to just be a cheerleader.