Israeli gov distances itself from PR chief in charge of running

[MarkLaw]

I think he is saying publicly what many officials think but for diplomatic reasons don’t say publicly. Israeli official actions such as expansion of settlements and its aggressive attitude and behavior creates an environment conducive to such hostile, racist and inciteful statements.”

Referring to a report by the Church of Scotland which said that Israelis do not have a special right to the Holy Land, he posted: “The Church of Scotland, the Calvinist Presbytarian (sic) Church of Scotland. Why do they think we give a flying F*** what you have to say?”

On August 8, two days after memorials for the victims of the atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Mr Seaman wrote “I am sick of the Japanese ‘Human Rights’ and ‘Peace’ groups the world over holding the annual self-righteous commemorations for the Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the consequences of Japanese aggression. You reap what you sow.

In a post on May 26, Mr Seaman responded to a statement by Palestinian official Saeb Erekat calling for Israel to cease all settlement construction in the West Bank, with the post: “Is there a diplomatic way of saying ‘Go F*** yourself’?”
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-government-distances-itself-from-senior-official-after-series-of-offensive-facebook-posts-8764220.html

[oberliner]

1. "Not sure who that is"

Just a little reminder from our earlier exchange:

oberliner
1. With Daniel Seaman in charge, this is sure to backfire

He puts his foot in his mouth on a daily basis. His efforts will most likely have the opposite of the desired effect.

MarkLaw
2. Not sure who that is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=46129

I guess you know who that is now.

And, by the way, this is exactly what I said would happen.

[MarkLaw]

2. Yes I read a little about him after posting that article. I wasn't surprised to see a xenophobe

appointed to a position where he is able to control the flow of Information in Israel, however, I was surprised to learn they appointed him knowing how reckless he was.

If your going to appoint someone you know is xenophobic and racist why would you appoint someone who is so outspoken about their views?

Desperation most likely.

[oberliner]

6. It was an idiotic choice

The Israeli leadership (especially the current one) tends to have a tin ear for that sort of thing.

[delrem]

9. Netanyahu is courting the extreme right.

I don't think anything Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu does (in public) is without a great deal of thought.

He's not just courting the extreme right, he's being extremely provocative in "settlement building" and social engineering.
He's doing all this at the same time as he's giving the finger to those who hold fast to some ridiculous notion of "peace talks intended to usher in a two state solution".

So, if the choice is that "idiotic", how can it be done better?

[oberliner]

10. Yeah but this position was for international PR

It isn't meant for an internal Israeli audience. Certainly not RW Israeli settlers, many of whom do not even use computers. The idea was to portray Israel positively to the greater international community. With that in mind, this man was the worst person for the job - as is very clear.

[delrem]

11. I don't think anything Benjamin "Bibi" Netanyahu (publicly) does is without a great deal of thought

[oberliner]

18. Fair enough

There are a lot of very smart people in Israel - unfortunately, it seems like these are not the ones who end up in government leadership positions.

[Scootaloo]

3. Is he out of synch with the standard "liberal Zionist" though?

“I am sick of the Japanese ‘Human Rights’ and ‘Peace’ groups the world over holding the annual self-righteous commemorations for the Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the consequences of Japanese aggression. You reap what you sow.

Now let's apply a little search-replace...

“I am sick of the Palestinian ‘Human Rights’ and ‘Peace’ groups the world over holding the annual self-righteous commemorations for the Nakba victims. Dier Yassin and Jaffa were the consequences of Arab aggression. You reap what you sow.

Hell, we don't even need to do a search replace, i've seen some of your "liberal Zionists" compatriots here outright cheering and defending the nuclear attacks against Hiroshima and Nagasaki... I'm not naming names because, although I'm sure it was one of three posters, I can't remember exactly which one... And none of them were Shira, so at least there's that

I think maybe Seaman is just a hasbara troll who is "living the dream."

[oberliner]

7. I think so

No liberal, Zionist or not, would make the comments he made (or your fantasy paragraph).

Incidentally, do you yet believe that liberal Zionists exist?

[Scootaloo]

8. I see you still refuse to comprehend my argument

I think you might want to pay a little closer attention to your fellow Zionist posters, though. You might learn something about them.

[oberliner]

12. Refuse to comprehend your argument?

I don't refuse to comprehend anything. What was the argument? Granted, I may actually not comprehend what you mean, but it's not based on any kind of refusal. If there is anything you want to share, feel free. I'll do my best to comprehend whatever point you are making. I will tell you that in the internet and non-internet world, I engage with lots of liberal (and not-all-that-liberal) Zionists who do (or would) find Daniel Seamen's comments to be disgusting. They (and I) would be similarly disgusted by the comments in your fantasy paragraph as well.

[Scootaloo]

14. Allow me to try, for the umpteenth time...

I don't deny that there are people who call themselves "Liberal Zionists." Seriously, I don't, I mean there's a lot of such people crawling in the walls here on DU. They all call themselves "Liberal Zionists." Such people surely exist. It's just that htye might as well be calling themselves Reform Orthodox Ascetic Materialist Communo-Libertarians.

Like I said. I suggest you read some of the things your fellows post here. I've noticed you seem unable to express criticism, much less disgust, toards anyone approaching from a Pro-Israel angle. I think it's spmething you need to work on, especially if you're going to continue this conceit you have of being the unbiased, level-headed spokesperson-type.

[shira]

15. Speak for yourself then, Scoot.....you and your like-minded anti-zionists

We're already discussing your fellow advocates/activists being against Jewish immigration to Palestine during WW2. What they'd have favored during WW2 was Jews back to the ovens while Palestine would have become a racially pure dictatorship/theocracy. But there's more, much more that shows you and yours are in no way liberal/progressive when it comes to Israel or anything else for that matter....

If you all had it your way, Israel would never have been born and that part of the world would never have become western democratic with guaranteed civil liberties, and the rest of the progressive package. You all would have preferred an Arab majority and Islamist rule similar to what we see outside of Israel throughout the mideast today. There wouldn't even be an independent Palestinian state as that area would have become part of Jordan, Egypt, Syria or all 3.

Your advocacy is anti-Israel, not pro-Palestinian. As much as you guys scream racism and human rights, progressive ideals are of no interest to you whatsoever for Palestinians suffering in Lebanon, Gaza, or Jordan. Not even for women, gays, religious minorities, etc. The refugees (or descendants of refugees) are a perfect example, suffering under apartheid conditions for over 60 years throughout the Arab mideast. Not one of you advocates for giving them citizenship and equal rights where they are (the same that any other refugee population would get worldwide). 60 years of silence. It's my opinion you guys hate Palestinians every bit as much as you accuse Zionists. Actually more. You thrive on Palestinian misery. You use it to bash Israel in every conceivable retarded way, taking your cues from Arafat to Assad, from Bashir to the Ayatollahs, from Gaddafi to Hamas to Hezbollah. A megaphone for their anti-Israel views, adopting all their talking points, memes. Well, not the most blatantly anti-semitic ones....but then again, you guys ignore, whitewash, and explain all that away too, claiming to be anti-racists but willfully ignoring neo-nazi anti-Jewish genocidal rhetoric.

I could go on, but that should suffice.

You have some nerve stating it's impossible for Zionists to be liberal. The fact of the matter is that I haven't met ONE anti-zionist that can be considered liberal and would be offended at other anti-zionists described above. Not one. Ever.

[Scootaloo]

19. Amazing how, again, the only person saying those things is you

I think it's a window to the sort of shit that bubbles through your head, all day, every day.

[shira]

20. And now the "liberal anti-zionist" denies the most fundamental beliefs....

Last edited Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:06 AM - Edit history (1)

...and views shared by anti-zionists.

Remarkable!

Hey, do you at least find those views vile and contemptible?

[Scootaloo]

21. Yes, I find the shit in your head to be very contemptable

Which is why I regard you with contempt more often than not. I really thought you would have caught on to this by now. Was I being too subtle?

[shira]

22. Aww, struck a nerve. Let's remember this when we further discuss "liberal" views....

...on I/P, okay?

You can deny these are typical anti-zionist views all you want. I suggest you own them.

And here's more...

A list of the 26 terrorist (freedom fighters) recently released by Israel:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-name-26-prisoners-to-be-released/

All murderers who targeted Jews deliberately. Considered freedom fighters and heroes by, and for example...

Mondoweiss
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/08/palestines-foreign-ministry-pushes-back-on-prisoner-story-says-occupiers-are-the-terrorists.html

All the major anti-zio organizations out there consider these murderers as either heroes, freedom fighters, political prisoners or all 3. None have a problem with the Palestinian leadership celebrating these heroes of theirs...
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=9554

Not a peep. From "concerned" LIB'RULZzzz. The same "liberals" who can't or won't see Helen Thomas, Richard Falk, or Greta Berlin's gutter antisemitism.

Please don't tell me you're the ONE AND ONLY (ERRRR....MAAAAHHH....GERRRRRD) liberal anti-zionist out there. Seriously, are you that one needle in a haystack I've been searching for.....for years now? Finally? A real LIB'RUL anti-zionist?



Come on....don't let me down now!

[Scootaloo]

23. No, I just find repeating myself to be tiresome

Are you asking me if I think those 26 are heroes? I don't. And you know what? I doubt anyone else does, either.

So you ask, why the celebration? Well, that's a fair question. The celebration isn't so much directed at the 26 individuals involved. Rather it's directed at the notion that Israel is releasing these people from prison at all. These just happen to be the people who got out. They could be in there for chewing gum or for eating someone's face, either way I guarantee you their release would be celebrated not because of the individuals but because of the political meaning of it.

Now, here's a funny thing. Know who decided to release these 26? Know who looked over a list of over a thousand names and said "let's let these guys go"? it wasn't me. It wasn't any of the anti-Zionists chafing your ass. It wasn't Mahmoud Abbas, it wasn't Nasrallah, it wasn't Ahmedinejad, Pat Buchanan, Greta Berlin, Adolph Hitler, or any of the other handful of names you actually know. It was the government of Israel. Obviously Israel must disagree with you about these guys. Israel looked at these 26 and put them at the top of the list for release. Of course Israel is also the party that released the details about what they were convicted of. One wonders if there's a connection there. At any rate... Israel has judged that these 26 are fit and wonderful men, and welcomed their release as much as anyone else.

Sadly, you disagree with this decision by Israel. at least, it looks this way. You are looking at Israel, letting some nasty murderers go after holding them for twenty years or more and you feel... what? Anger? Disappointment? Rage? I'm curious, Shira, what's going through your head on this?

[shira]

24. Mondoweiss calls them freedom fighters. Mondoweiss is BIG within anti-zio circles.

That's cheering on these "heroes", BTW.

So much for Mondoweiss' liberalism, right?

These terrorists should be serving out their full sentences, like other murderers. I can't imagine other countries doing this for basically nothing in return.

[Scootaloo]

25. Actually, Mondoweiss doesn't

Palestine's Foreign Ministry does. Mondoweiss is just reporting on that.

These terrorists should be serving out their full sentences, like other murderers. I can't imagine other countries doing this for basically nothing in return.

It's funny when you get confused about what position you should take. You so often try to take all of them.

[shira]

26. She's cheering the PA "doubling down with an injection of truth"...

Try keeping up with your anti-zio sources.

[Scootaloo]

27. Ah, there it is

Thanks, I did miss that.

Try keeping up with your anti-zio sources.

You think I source Mondoweiss? Huh. I mean I guess I could. Hmmm. Maybe if I find something interesting there.

But I'm still curious. Are you upset with Israel deciding to release twenty-six murderers, or are you praising Israel for doing so?

[shira]

28. Mondoweiss is EXTREMELY POPULAR within the anti-zio movement....

You might be the first person I've met distancing himself from that vileness.

What do you make of that?

I'm not praising Israel for this at all. They've released hundreds of prisoners before, for no good reason. It's an insult to the dead and their families. I can't imagine if the perps behind 911 were all in jail that the US would release them for pretty much nothing in return. Can you?

[Scootaloo]

29. Here, allow me to show you some things.

Bullshit. Palwatch is extremely credible. You're not.

That's you, pounding on about the "extreme credibility" of the work of an anti-Arab neocon propagandist, Itamar Marcus. He's in tight with the likes of Daniel Pipes and Geert Wilders and is yet another person up to their neck in the anti-Islam film "Obsession."

This is you citing the Gatestone Institute, another deep-right, neoconservative "think-tank." its founder, Nina Rosenwald, is another person buddy-buddy with Geert Wilders, whom she has had speak for presentations at the institute - along with such luminaries as Daniel Pipes, Henry Kissinger, Alan Dershowitz, Bruce Bawer and John Bolton. Mrs. Rosenwald's own resume reads like a who's who of think-tanks invested in continuous warfare, such as the Council on Foreign relations, the Committee on the Present Danger, the Center for Security Policy, think-tanks revolving around blatant islamophobia such as the American Center for Democracy, Washington Institute for Near East Policy, and of course MEMRI and CAMERA...

And here you are citing algemeiner. While perhaps not as ludicrously right-wind as Gatestone, it still carries a neoconservative bent and offers soapbozes to the likes of Daniel Pipes, Alan Dershowitz, and John Bolton. Scrolling down their op-eds, the only article i see that isn't immediately psychotic is a call for Jews to support Russia's GLBT community. We have things like "Obama Sings ‘Please Release Me’ on Behalf of Palestinian Terrorists" and "We Have Peace – Don’t Ruin it With a Peace Plan" and of course, the newest fad for Zionism, licking Mubarak's boots.

This is you denying that you source from Arutz Sheva
This is you sourcing from Arutz Sheva both before and after.

And of course your advocacy for all of these fucking lunatics

While it's nice to say you don't source JihadWatch and FrontPageMag (and in fact, you don't) by your own rules of guilt by association, you kinda do - Robert Spencer and especially David Horowitz are wrapped up with several of the people and organizations above, which you seem to consider reliable.

And let's not forget your sourcing of the founder of the fascist party Im Tirtzu - you defend doing so after being called on it.

I understand why you want to go after Mondoweiss, Shira. I just don't think you've left yourself in a very good position to do so, you know? You're a little too eager to grasp onto any wild-eyed bullshit source that tells you what you wanted to hear anyway.

Which brings us to part two of my post... I'm not distancing myself from Mondoweiss. I'm indifferent to the outlet. I rarely read it, and haven't used it as a source. It has on occasion led me to interesting articles elsewhere, since Mondoweiss is sort of like Huffpo in that it mostly just regurgitates articles from other publications with a dabble of commentary. It's very certainly not the source of my anti-Zionist position, which is actually what I figured you were trying to say.

I'm not praising Israel for this at all. They've released hundreds of prisoners before, for no good reason. It's an insult to the dead and their families. I can't imagine if the perps behind 911 were all in jail that the US would release them for pretty much nothing in return. Can you?

Is their penalty especially more lax than Samuel Sheinbein's? He's the guy who plotted to murder his crush's boyfriend, plotted it all out and even tried to hire assassins, who then decided he needed "practice" with murder, abducting Alfredo Tello, torturing him via stabbing and strangulation before finally smashing his head in with a sawed-off shotgun. He then dismembered the body and tried to incinerate it. Sheinbein fled to Israel which refused to extradite him back to the US - but Israel did try him for the murder of Alfredo Tello, convicted him, and sentenced him to... twenty-four years, with possibility of parole at 16.

I'm not going to argue with you per se, I think we can agree these guys are nasty characters and shouldn't be called freedom fighters. But since they're pretty much serving the same sentence as that guy (none of them were imprisoned for less than twenty years, they're all pre-Oslo prisoners) and are now being dumped on the other side of the Green line, is their release actually that outrageous? The US lets murderers out after twenty, twenty-five years rather frequently - and they don't get shipped off to Northern Idaho or some other BFE place when they get out, they live with the rest of us after parole or release.

[shira]

30. You misunderstand. I don't mind you using Mondoweiss as a source....

Hell, I could use it too. That's not my point. I don't see the problem using ANY source if the story and facts pan out. Some sources are more credible than others. Some are less biased or more honest and accurate. I think understanding I/P requires knowing both sides and honestly considering the arguments and FACTS coming from both sides. I don't see the point of denying/ignoring stuff @ PMW or Gatestone anymore than doing so with al-Jazeera, Mondoweiss, or ElectronicIntifada.

Go ahead and keep using it as a source. That's not what I'm getting at.

Use any source - right or left wing. I don't care. If the source is bullshit, expect someone to challenge it - hopefully with facts and logic.

What I've noticed about anti-zios in my years of debating them is that they're a lot like Rush Limbaugh ditto-heads. All robots with the same views and same talking points with minor variation. They ALL share the Mondoweiss (and ElectronicIntifada) worldview. Apartheid, colonialism, Zionist control of ______ , Palestinian resistance (terror) is legit, deny/whitewash Palestinian genocidal Jew hate, dehumanize settlers and zionists, Jewish neo-cons got us into Iraq, intentionally hit the USS Liberty, Israel had no right to exist in the first place, RACISM, RACISM, RACISM, etc. Same shit, different day. Whatever little differences you guys have with each other is insignificant. You share the above views, and if you don't subscribe to any of them you're certainly not bothered enough to do anything about it (tacit approval).

OTOH, there are the sources I use, some of which you cited. Zionist sources. But Zionist sources vary from PeaceNow and J-Street to the worst of the worst Kahanist thugs. To say Arutz-7 speaks for me or for all the Zionists here is ridiculous. PMW? Their videos speak for themselves. I couldn't care less about the political views of Itamar Marcus. Landes/Karsenty? Why should I care about their politics? Pallywood speaks for itself. If they're wrong about 20% or even 90% of everything else, they still get kudos for the % they're right about. Just like Mondoweiss and ElectronicIntifada.

======

I also had big problems with the thugs released in exchange for Gilad Shalit. Sends the wrong message, as though Jews can still be murdered with impunity.

[Scootaloo]

31. That's a whole hell of a lot of backpedaling there, Shira

"WARGHBLARGWARGBLE MONDOWEISS IS STUPID AND VILE AND ALL YOU ANTIZIOS WORSHIP IT YARGHBLARGHMLURGHWARGHBLE!"
...
"What I meant to say is that I have no problem with Mondoweiss, and feel that they should be given credit when it's due, of course."

You share the above views, and if you don't subscribe to any of them you're certainly not bothered enough to do anything about it (tacit approval).

Well, let's go down your list, shall we?

Apartheid

Yup. A state where Jews are given preferential treatment over nonjews in regards to laws and rights counts. When we ad on the five million Arabs living under Israeli control and vastly different (harsher) laws and (diminished) rights, who have absolutely no say in the conditions of Israeli rule over them... yeah, that's apartheid, or at least the closest fucking thing since the National Party went splut.

colonialism

Hmmm. A colonial empire seizes the territory from a defeated enemy, denies the local population any amount of autonomy instead utilizing them as indentured labor and levying harsh punishment for nationalist calls. This colonial power then agrees to chop up the territory following lines hat look interesting in a boardroom but could never work in reality, and hands the larger portion to colonists from Europe. Which two decades later begins its own colonialist ventures into neighboring territories. Yup, that's colonialism on all counts.

Zionist control of ______

Actually this isn't one I buy into. While I do hold that Zionism has an large amount of influence in politics (especially measured relative to its actual utility in US politics) and a magnified voice in the media, I don't equate this with "control." I don't go for that "Israel controls the US!" bullshit. In fact I hold the opposite - Israel is a client state of the US, though one less pliant than Saudi Arabia. I've explained this reality to other people who claim "Zionist control of stuff!"

Palestinian resistance (terror) is legit

There are people who think all resistance is terrorism, and people who think all terrorism is resistance. I'm neither, I hold there is a well-defined distinction between acts of terrorism and acts of violent resistance. The primary distinction is that legitimate resistance targets agents of the oppression the resistance is fighting against - police, soldiers, politicians even. The people responsible for creating and enforcing the conditions the resistance is fighting. In this frame, complicity is NOT agency. Civilians, even the ones who agree with the oppression, are not valid targets. In acts that do not bring harm to persons, the act must make a useful demonstration of resistance.

You and I have actually agreed on this (somewhat) in the past - I've taken people to task for claiming Hamas' missiles are "harmless bottle rockets," you seem to agree that the voting habits of a population doesn't make them valid targets, etc.

deny/whitewash Palestinian genocidal Jew hate

It's not whitewashing to make the following two points:

1) Such opinions do not reflect or define the minds of the entire population.
2) Why should anyone be expected to NOT hate the people dispossessing and oppressing them?

I want you to think, for a moment. What if someone's only experiences with Jews are hostility and oppression at Jewish hands? What if your knowledge of the Magen David is that the men who groped your sister at the checkpoint wore it, and that the people who bulldozed your home and orchard planted a flag with it on top of the rubble? What if the only Jewish theology you'd been exposed to was Book of Numbers-style justifications for driving you out, killing you, and taking your stuff? What if the only aspect of Jewish history you encountered amounts to "Europe fucked us and now we get to fuck you"?

Now I'm not saying that hating Jews is right or justified because of this. Clearly the overwhelming majority of Jews in the world don't do these things and are completely uninvolved in any way. But try telling a woman who's been abused by men most of her life, that men are okay and she's just had the bad luck of encountering a cavalcade of assholes. It won't work, she's not going to go "yeah, you're right, now I can get on with my life," because victims of abuse don't work that way. And beating her up to convince her of this certainly isn't going to work!

dehumanize settlers and zionists

It's not dehumanizing to point out that settlers are criminals. They are criminals. Some measurable portion of them are violent criminals, to boot, and even those guys have the explicit protection and aid of the Israeli government.
Zionists... Well, let me put it this way. If you advocate ethnic cleansing, it's not your critics who dehumanize you - you've already done that to yourself.

Jewish neo-cons got us into Iraq

Well in fact many of the neo-cons involved in this were Jewish. If your point is that their Jewishness is irrelevant, then I agree - the planning and pumping for the Iraq war came from assholes of many creeds and ethnicities, and that some of them were Jewish just means that there are Jewish neocons, and nothing more.
Now, whether the philosophy of Zionism is relevant to the decisions and propagandizing for the Iraq war is a question worth examination. This is a good example of why I think people who equate Zionism with Jews are idiots. Very clearly Zionism exists independently if Jewishness and even sometimes - especially in the case of Christian Zionism - exists in conflict with Jewishness (you know, that whole "we want Israel to win so Jesus will come kill all the Jews" thing.)

intentionally hit the USS Liberty

Honestly I have no opinion on whether it was attacked intentionally or not. Everything I've read on the subject, for or against, is so heavily and clearly biased that I'm unable to form an opinion that I'm comfortable with. Instead I just acknowledge that the Liberty was attacked by Israel, and Israel issued several apologies and paid restitution for what happened.

Israel had no right to exist in the first place

Well, I don't believe that any state has a right to exist. That notion is utter nonsense. Can you imagine the logic being applied to the rest of the world? Every state that has ever existed, every state that wants to exist, has an absolute right to exist, in whatever territory it desires to exist upon. That's a recipe for disaster, isn't it?

RACISM, RACISM, RACISM,

What? Oh right, you subscribe to the notion that pointing out racism is a bad thing, I forgot.

So... yeah, I have similar views to other anti-Zionists. Not total agreement on everything, of course, and there are some wild hare-brained motherfuckers in the rubric no doubt who I share pretty much nothing with (Atzmon, I'm looking at you) but yeah, you've recognized that people who claim a particular philosophy tend ot have similar views on the subjects that philosophy covers. Duh?

[shira]

32. I don't have a problem with using any sources but...

Last edited Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:27 PM - Edit history (2)

It's important to acknowledge where those sources are coming from. Without fail, I can tell what the I/P political views of someone who regularly posts from Mondoweiss is. That can't really be done with Zionist sources that range from Arutz-7 or worse to J-Street and Haaretz.

To go with 3 of the points you responded to...

a) Resistance/Terror. It's fairly easy to see what the Palestinian leadership considers "resistance". There are millions of transcripts and videos where they explain it. They target Jews, from women and children to the elderly. Soft targets, not military ones. Jews, Jews, and more Jews. Apes and Pigs. Most anti-zionists do not have a problem supporting this resistance, which IMO isn't any different than support of neo-nazi "resistance" against Jewish soft targets. This is how I know anti-zios are not progressive. The Nazis weren't progressive either. This isn't difficult stuff here.

b) Denial/Whitewashing of Palestinian genocidal hate incitement. You just whitewashed the worst kind of anti-Jewish racism. This racism isn't a result of occupation & oppression. It was in full overdrive back in the 1920's. The Palestinians' first leader worked with the Nazis and had a hand in what was going on during WW2. The leadership today shares the same philosophy. The only differences today are the excuses. As an anti-racist, you should know there's something seriously wrong with excusing/whitewashing racism due to alleged actions of some in the group being targeted. For example, I could write off Jewish hatred of Arabs or Muslims due to 100 years of Nazi style Jew hatred. Now like you, I can say that's not right....but I've now justified it, right? How can you blame Jews for hating Nazis, or hating Palestinians who "seemingly" subscribe to the views of their leaders (from al-Hussayni to Arafat to Hamas)? Jewish targets of nazi-style murderous attacks are as traumatized as women beaten by men who hate men, right?

The point is, anti-Zionists are at best indifferent to the Arab world's Jew-hatred (not just Palestinian) which exposes them as racists/bigots themselves IMO. They don't condemn the PA or Hamas for this. Look at the history of showing PMW videos here. You'll find anti-zios attacking the "rightwing" source (how a clearly damning video is rightwing is beyond me) rather than displaying disgust or condemning it. They "understand". IOW, they're explaining it away, whitewashing, ignoring, and generally being indifferent to racism. This is another way of distinguishing b/w anti-zios and genuine progressives. Progressives aren't like this. When Jews show racism towards Arabs it's a different story. RACISM, RACISM, RACISM....ERRRRGHHH, DISGUST, THEY DIDN'T LEARN FROM WW2. But crickets when it's the Arabs calling to murder Jewish apes and pigs. Not progressive. Not liberal. Duh.....

c) Zionist control of _______. An old-school protocols of elder accusation. I try to give the benefit of the doubt on this one, but whenever I point out the history behind this bigoted canard, it's ignored. I can't imagine any progressive unleashing against Blacks, for example, with every prejudicial stereotype in the book.......being corrected.....and then continuing. It's bullshit. I see this all the time from anti-zios.

=========================

Now rather than you going into attack mode on Zionists to show how bad we are, please try to stay on topic instead. Let's see you defend your fellow anti-Israel progressives if you can. My prediction is you can't, because they essentially hold extremely racist RIGHTWING views. Yeah, there are Zionists who are just as bad, but we're talking the fringe Kahanist greater Israel Right. As much as you'd like to lump all Zionists together, try as you may you can't.

[Scootaloo]

33. I don't bother defending straw men, Shira

Want to explain to me how one minute you are affronted and aghast and offended by someone making spurious comparisons to Nazis, and now here you are, cramming Nazis in every with third word? It makes it clear that you really have no actual argument to make and instead want to rely on the invective of accusing someone you disagree with of being a Nazi. You, who get your nits in a twist over someone using the term "apartheid," are here accusing everyone you disagree with of endorsing the Holocaust. I know you're not going to spare even a moment to allow the staggering absurdity to sink in, but I still feel the need to point it out in the hopes that maybe it'll register and you'll achieve a satori moment.

Anyway. Back to attempting an adult conversation about some shit that's vastly smaller than that topic...

a) Resistance/Terror. It's fairly easy to see what the Palestinian leadership considers "resistance". There are millions of transcripts and videos where they explain it. They target Jews, from women and children to the elderly. Soft targets, not military ones. Jews, Jews, and more Jews. Apes and Pigs. Most anti-zionists do not have a problem supporting this resistance, which IMO isn't any different than support of neo-nazi "resistance" against Jewish soft targets. This is how I know anti-zios are not progressive. The Nazis weren't progressive either. This isn't difficult stuff here.

I assure you that most anti-Zionists don't harbor any such notion. Some do, no doubt, we've both seen 'em. let me clue you in via the magic of personal anecdotes!

If you had bumped into be back around, I dunno, 2001, I probably would have been one of those people. Seriously, I very likely would have explained to you how suicide bombing a bus was a form of self-defense or some bullshit like that. Why? Not out of any hate for Jews, any love for Nazis, or any bullshit like that. it was because I was young, and though my knowledge was shallow and opinions immature, I was utterly convinced I had it all figured out. And what I had figured out was that extreme situations call for extreme measures. Basically, all I saw was the situation itself, and not the people involved. I can't say that there was some great epiphany that led me past this. I just grew up, learned more, developed a stronger sense of empathy. I still recognize the situation as an extreme one that calls for some sort of action - but there are clear limits about what that action should be.

I suspect that a fair number of those knucklehead saying "terrorism is legitimate resistance" or whatever just haven't bothered to think about it. Like my younger self, they just see a situation and not the people in that situation, and are so convinced of their own rightness that it blinds them to the human reality. I actually suspect you are in the same boat in that regard Shira, though coming from the opposite direction.

Look at the history of showing PMW videos here. You'll find anti-zios attacking the "rightwing" source (how a clearly damning video is rightwing is beyond me) rather than displaying disgust or condemning it.

It's not the video. It's the context that video is placed within. Everything, absolutely everything on CAMERA, PalWatch, and MEMRI is negative. Every single video, every single editorial, every piece of media is saying" look, here, what beasts the Palestinians are. Look at what hateful monsters they are. They are savages. They are uncontrollable. They are genocidal. These are not even human beings, they are evil creatures." They are creating a narrative for you to view and reach the conclusion that oh yes, the Palestinian are an abomination upon the Earth and Israel is justified in everything it does to them.

Now, for the sake of DU rules, I'm not going to link to a hate site... But over on Stormfront, there is a stickied thread in their "News" forum. This thread contains page after page, link after link of criminals, would-be criminals, political ethics violations and scandals. It goes on for forty pages, with forty posts per page, with many of those posts containing multiple examples of criminals, a dozen links, etc. I admit i haven't read the entire damn thing but the stories I've checked are indeed stories of criminal behavior, political scandals, etc that have all really happened. The thread is titled Jewish Crime Report.

If I were to present you with this thread, would you express disgust and condemn the people talked about in it? Or would you instead be disgusted by a bunch of racists piling it all together in a clear effort to create a narrative wherein ALL Jews are unethical criminals? You would, of course, opt for the latter, as would any reasonable person I imagine. Whether the stories within the thread are factual or not actually becomes irrelevant because of the framing. I have a real problem with Anthony Wiener's ethics violations and his racist attitude.. .but if you put stories about him together and call it "Jewish Crime Report, I'm going to set my problems with the shit Weiner did aside, and I'm going to go after the asshats making that thread. Follow?

When Jews show racism towards Arabs it's a different story.

Yes, it is a different story. Right there, you remind me of white people who wonder, "if they get to say ni**er, then why can't I?" or who pout about how "'Cracker' is offensive, too!" Perhaps you remember a few of these conversations coming up on DU during the Zimmerman trial? Do you remember what the answer was?

Power disparity. Blacks didn't enslave whites for four hundred years. Blacks did not segregate whites as a distinct third-tier chunk of the population for five hundred years. Whites are not systematically targeted by black cops, on and on and on. The reason why white people "aren't allowed" to say the N-word is because of that history, and that current reality. The reason that "cracker" or "honkey" isn't even remotely as offensive is because it is invective from the weak to the powerful. Ni**er furthers a paradigm of oppression. "Ofay" does not.

Returning to Israel / Palestine, Palestinians did not drive seven hundred thousand Jews from their homes. Palestinians do not keep one-point-six million Jews captive in Tel Aviv and used them for pre-election bombing campaigns. Palestinians are not occupying the land of five million Jews, subjecting them to a daily litany of indignities, all the while using force to continue the removal of jews from their homes, to build new apartment blocks for Muslim immigrants from all over the world. By any measure, Palestinians are not the stronger of the two here. They are not the oppressor.

So yes. When the powerful, when the oppressor, expresses racist hatred against the weaker, the oppressed, it is a very different situation than when the weaker expresses similar spiteful rhetoric. because when the powerful dehumanize the weaker, when the oppressor dehumanizes the oppressed, what it leads to is more oppression, because the targets are that less human in the eyes of the oppressor. Since you like falling back to allusions about the Nazis so much, which is worse? A "model Aryan" German of the period bitching about the "Jewish rats," or a Jewish guy from the same period sewing the star onto his jacket and bitching about hte "dirty goy"? They're not at all equal, are they? Of course not.

c) Zionist control of _______. An old-school protocols of elder accusation. I try to give the benefit of the doubt on this one, but whenever I point out the history behind this bigoted canard, it's ignored. I can't imagine any progressive unleashing against Blacks, for example, with every prejudicial stereotype in the book.......being corrected.....and then continuing. It's bullshit. I see this all the time from anti-zios.

Yup, that's exactly what it is, and I've called people on it. I've also called you on it Shira. One feature I've noticed from Zionists is their propensity for recycling antisemitism. Instead of greedy Jewish bankers with big beaky noses controlling the media, it's greedy Arabs with all their oil money and big beaky noses controlling the media.

That's the gist of that "Pallywood" stuff, Shira. Landes and his associates basically assert that Arabs have a near-absolute controlling influence in the world media, and are using that absolute control for nefarious and manipulative purposes, to distort reality in their favor. These are the exact same charges antisemites lay against Jews. The absolute same. But since it says "Arab" and not "Jew" you buy it wholesale, and then regurgitate it as it it were the absolute truth of the world.

[oberliner]

34. Excellent post

I much prefer your serious, thought-provoking, heartfelt posts (like this one) to your goofy/snarky ones.

[shira]

35. First...

WRT the use of nazis, it's not just the false, constant, daily slanderous accusations or old Protocols-like stereotypes, but also indifference to the worst genocidal anti-Jew incitement, support of Hamas and friends, demonization and dehumanization of all "Zionist" Jews including the Holocaust generation.

I mean damn, I expect that from the far fasicst Stormfront Right, but come on.....I've gotta see that crap from all "progressive" anti-zios too? Seriously? Fellow "progressives" don't know or are ignorant of how off-the-charts UGLY their accusations are? I thought we all fucking hated Nazis, but I see WAY too many parallels. Like I wrote earlier, I used to give the benefit of the doubt on this stuff...but not anymore. I assume their anti-semites right off the bat and challenge them to prove otherwise. No more games.

========

You can argue everything @ PMW and CAMERA is negative and therefore incitement towards hatred, but isn't that also the case with anti-zio websites that are ALWAYS and w/o exception portraying Israel and Israelis as the new nazis, racists, apartheid-loving, arab and muslim hating, neo-con monsters?

I expect a little more from self-proclaimed "anti-racists". What I expect to see is some ACKNOWLEDGMENT that what is seen at PMW and CAMERA is absolutely fucking true AND w/o question vile and contemptible. I don't expect them to ignore or deflect from all that, as they always do. I don't expect to see anti-zio SUPPORT of Hamas when they call for killing Jewish apes and pigs. I'm assured this "support" is for the Palestinian people, not Hamas. But I always see anti-zios in solidarity with Hamas leaders, in photo-ops with them, spewing the same talking points, using Palestinians as pawns...explaining away or whitewashing anti-Palestinian oppression by Hamas. Which makes me think they support what Hamas does to them (and especially the hated Zionists).

And FYI, the "weaker" back in the 1920's through 1940's who were "oppressed" were the hated Jews. Anti-zios have just as much contempt for these "colonialist" murdering thieves as they do any other Zionists today.

========

You see "Pallywood" as the mirror image to charges of "Arabs-Control-The-Media"? Well then tell me, should Pallywood be discussed and debated at all? Should we, as good progressives, censor this altogether as if it doesn't exist? It certainly exists, but am I to understand that you'll throw up smoke-screens and distractions of every type to avoid any serious discussion of it......because it's not politically correct?

The mirror image of Pallywood would be deliberate and successful attempts by 'Zionists' to falsely portray reality w/ their own phony images, staged productions, etc. THAT would be orgasmic red-meat for anti-zios, wouldn't it? I wouldn't personally have any problem bashing "Hasbarawood". I'd say that's legit criticism and is a separate issue altogether from the "Jews-control-the-media" meme. But let's face it - is there any way 'Zionists' would get away with that as the folks do behind Pallywood?

[Scootaloo]

37. You know, while we're on the subject of Stormfront...

When I went over there to check up on that thread, I logged in to my troll account to see what other shit they had going on in their non-public forums. As it turns out, I had a mediafire link in the account's inbox, leading me to someone's "book."

The book is titled "The Zionist Attack on White Civilization: 120 Rebuttals Refuting Anti-White or Liberal Arguments," written by "British74." Since I'm someone who's fascinated by racist crazy, I went ahead and downloaded it for a read.

As I scroll through this thing's 132 pages, I'm starting to get the notion that if this is what you're thinking about when you hear the term "anti-Zionism" then not only do I not blame you for the opinions you've expressed... but also that you and I are talking about two very different things. That basically what we have here is a case of homographic homophones. 'Cause whoo boy.

I would point out some other things I'm noticing in this emergency-wipes booklet, but I'm still trying to "play nice" with you. Let's just say, I remain unapologetic for my comparison of Zionism to white nationalism.

I assume their anti-semites right off the bat and challenge them to prove otherwise.

First off: "They're." Don't type angry.
Second... you demand people prove a negative? Huh. Okay. I'll just wait to see if you can figure out the problem there all on your own.

You can argue everything @ PMW and CAMERA is negative and therefore incitement towards hatred, but isn't that also the case with anti-zio websites that are ALWAYS and w/o exception portraying Israel and Israelis as the new nazis, racists, apartheid-loving, arab and muslim hating, neo-con monsters?

I can't draw an equivalency between the two examples, no. Again, it comes down to the power disparity.

Israelis are empowered, and hold power over the Palestinians.
Palestinians are almost totally disempowered; they hold little control over their own conditions, and certainly have no power over Israelis.

While I can say yes, that Electronic Intifada (for an example) gives a consistent negative portrayal of Israel and Israelis, there is a huge difference between negative portrayal of people who are under a boot, and negative portrayal of the people wearing that boot. No matter what the writers at EI write, the Israelis are not and probably never will be under the conditions they subject the Palestinians to.

MEMRI and its counterparts, on the other hand, stands from a point of power over the people it is dehumanizing, portraying as monsters and evil savages. It tells you that the boot on the neck of Palestinians is just and righteous, and even that Israel should be stepping down harder on these abominable sub-people. It is shoulder to shoulder in its support of the people who have the military, economic, political, and legal power over the subjects in its video, and it uses that media to justify exactly that situation.

You see "Pallywood" as the mirror image to charges of "Arabs-Control-The-Media"? Well then tell me, should Pallywood be discussed and debated at all? Should we, as good progressives, censor this altogether as if it doesn't exist? It certainly exists, but am I to understand that you'll throw up smoke-screens and distractions of every type to avoid any serious discussion of it......because it's not politically correct?

Yes it is. And this is discussing and debating it, Shira. The problem you have is that you want to just ignore the reality around the people promulgating the idea that there is a "Pallywood," what their agendas are, and all that other very relevant stuff. You want is to look at a 55-second video clip put together by Richard Landes, but you want us to not make note of who Landes is or what his aims are.

Every single bit of what you term "Pallywood" is collected, edited, framed, and contextualized by people who have a very notable anti-Palestinian bias. I have no more reason to trust the claims about Palestinians made by Landes and his like, than I have to trust this British74 douchebag's claims about blacks and Jews, regardless of the "evidence" they claim.

The mirror image of Pallywood would be deliberate and successful attempts by 'Zionists' to falsely portray reality w/ their own phony images, staged productions, etc. THAT would be orgasmic red-meat for anti-zios, wouldn't it? I wouldn't personally have any problem bashing "Hasbarawood". I'd say that's legit criticism and is a separate issue altogether from the "Jews-control-the-media" meme. But let's face it - is there any way 'Zionists' would get away with that as the folks do behind Pallywood?

So, if I'm reading you correct, you're not only insisting that there has been no pro-Zionist "victories" in the media sphere, but that anti-Zionist attempts have been far more successful?

[shira]

38. Stormfront bile....

....is not significantly different than the crap the PA and Hamas puts out there on a daily basis - which is ignored, explained away, or whitewashed by their "progressive" supporters who assure me that they only support the "people". You get credit for downloading and reading that crap. I personally don't have the stomach to do so, but that goes for rummaging through ElectronicIntifada and Mondoweiss as well. All that makes me equally sick.

As I scroll through this thing's 132 pages, I'm starting to get the notion that if this is what you're thinking about when you hear the term "anti-Zionism" then not only do I not blame you for the opinions you've expressed...

Finally, I think you're starting to view anti-zionism through my eyes. I think we're making progress.

I can't draw an equivalency between the two examples, no. Again, it comes down to the power disparity.

If I understand this power disparity argument correctly, it means that Jews - and especially Zionist Jews - are not victims in your view. Maybe this is why you feel it's okay for progressives to be willfully indifferent to the most vile and despicable anti-Jew stormfront/palestinian hatred, incitement, and terror acts aimed at these Jews, the oppressors. HOWEVER, if turned the other way around...if this hate and incitement were aimed at the Palestinians instead (Stormfront style) you'd scream holy hell at Zionist Jews doing the very same thing to Palestinians, the victims. The former type of racism you tolerate WAY more than the latter, which makes your blood boil.

Is that what 21st century anti-racist advocacy is about? Victims (and supporters of those victims) can't be racist, or at the very least they should be excused for their racism and bigotry because they're fighting for a good cause? How about western "progressives" supporting these racist 3rd world victims? Progressives who are anti-Israel megaphones for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran. They are by extension excused for their racism/bigotry? If so, what a great cause for Jew haters. Racism is Racism is Racism IMO. All bad, all equally beyond the pale. No exceptions. We should be fighting all hatred, not picking and choosing. But something's very wrong here if I'm understanding you correctly about victims/oppressors.

==========

MEMRI, PMW, CAMERA, Landes, and myself basically see the Jews (Zionists/Israelis) also as (potential) victims (of something we do not want to see happening again). Not just victims and potential targets of Palestinians, but also targets of the greater Arab world, the anti-zio progressives, the Stormfront neo-nazis, and garden variety everyday anti-Semites. Jews are already being attacked in greater numbers throughout Europe today and the world is silent. Some of this can easily be attributed to the demonization of Israel. You may disagree and see it another way, but that's where many (and I dare say almost all) of us are coming from. It is in THIS light that most of us advocate for Israel, to protect Jews (ourselves, our people). This is self-defense, not some evil manipulative plot to get people to buy into our "white-nationalist, ethnic supremacist, pro-apartheid/racist vision to fuck 3rd world people over.

=============

Actually, we're not debating Pallywood at all. Here's a clip entitled "The Adventures of Shirley Temper". Typical Pallywood. Landes has nothing at all to do with this video. Watch (starting especially from 1:45 and also 3:45 in) and you SHOULD see something very disturbing in it.

That's Pallywood in a nutshell. I'm very serious when I ask that you list at least 3-4 things you find disturbing with the Palestinian advocacy demonstrated in that video. There's a reason I ask this and it's connected to everything I just wrote about above. I'm trying my best to allow you to see what I've been seeing for years. As much as you may disagree, I want to be very clear about my POV here. The comments below the video at YouTube may help you out too, but I want to see your list.

Thanks.

So, if I'm reading you correct, you're not only insisting that there has been no pro-Zionist "victories" in the media sphere, but that anti-Zionist attempts have been far more successful?

Not at all. I'm saying there's no Zionist equivalent to Pallywood. No fake images, bogus footage, bullshit tall tales and malicious slander swallowed in-whole by an accomodating media. The Palestinians in their victim status can apparently do this all they want, no problem with the help of their "progressive anti-racist" friends. The Zionists and their supporters would rightfully be torn to shreds for doing so.

[Scootaloo]

39. Please don't tempt me...

Like I said, I'm trying to "play nice" with you.

Finally, I think you're starting to view anti-zionism through my eyes. I think we're making progress.

Ah-ah-ah, you have to read the whole thing: "but also that you and I are talking about two very different things. That basically what we have here is a case of homographic homophones."

That is, when you talk about anti-Zionism, you are talking about something very different than when I talk about anti-Zionism. And I'm taking a wild stab that in your head, it amounts to the stuff in this booklet. You know, "The Zionists got us into WW2" and "The Zionists are defaming Mel Gibson" and "The Zionists are pushing miscegenation to destroy the white race" and such. Thus "homographic homophones," words that are spelled and pronounced the same, but that have different meanings.

A particular point here is your persistent belief, illustrated in the next excerpt, that "Zionist = Jew = Zionist." You also seem to believe this is what everyone else must think. So so with that paradigm you assume anyone who is anti-Zionist must by definition be anti-Jewish as well.

If I understand this power disparity argument correctly, it means that Jews - and especially Zionist Jews - are not victims in your view.

Not only do you not understand the point, but you're so far off the mark that you're not even wrong

Power disparity is exactly what it says on the tin - a disparity (that means "difference&quot in power. In the context of Israel and Palestine, Israel is far more powerful than Palestine. I really don't think I need to explain that to you, do I?

HOWEVER, if turned the other way around...if this hate and incitement were aimed at the Palestinians instead (Stormfront style) you'd scream holy hell at Zionist Jews doing the very same thing to Palestinians, the victims. The former type of racism you tolerate WAY more than the latter, which makes your blood boil.

Because Israel holds the power in this equation. It's not even close. You've often used, in what you appear to believe is a defense of Israel, the argument "If Israel wanted to exterminate the Palestinians, it would have done so." Well, you also argue in this very post that the Palestinains do want to eradicate Israel... and of course we all know that they have not and in every likelihood cannot do that (even if we buy into your belief that this is what they all want.)

Simply put it's more dangerous for a powerful group to incite hatred against a weaker group, than vice versa.

Racism is Racism is Racism IMO. All bad, all equally beyond the pale. No exceptions. We should be fighting all hatred, not picking and choosing. But something's very wrong here if I'm understanding you correctly about victims/oppressors.

Well, your opinion is factually wrong. The severity of racism and bigotry varies. That is to say, it's not equal. I'll agree that it's all bad and people should oppose hate where they see it. But the plain reality is that some situations and instances are more harmful than others.

Someone who honestly believes the Welsh are worthless drunken sheep-fuckers is indeed a bigot against the Welsh... but the truth is he's likely causing very little harm to anything other than other people's opinion of him. On the other hand, if Colombians hold that the native peoples in the forests are bestial cannibals... and Colombia has a policy of targeting these groups to clear the way for lumber and mineral companies? well then that makes the Colombian people more likely to see no problem with that policy, doesn't it?

MEMRI, PMW, CAMERA, Landes, and myself basically see the Jews (Zionists/Israelis) also as (potential) victims (of something we do not want to see happening again). Not just victims and potential targets of Palestinians, but also targets of the greater Arab world, the anti-zio progressives, the Stormfront neo-nazis, and garden variety everyday anti-Semites. Jews are already being attacked in greater numbers throughout Europe today and the world is silent. Some of this can easily be attributed to the demonization of Israel. You may disagree and see it another way, but that's where many (and I dare say almost all) of us are coming from. It is in THIS light that most of us advocate for Israel, to protect Jews (ourselves, our people). This is self-defense, not some evil manipulative plot to get people to buy into our "white-nationalist, ethnic supremacist, pro-apartheid/racist vision to fuck 3rd world people over.

Yes, I know how you see yourselves. I also know how the tea party sees themselves, and I know how Hamas sees themselves. According to each group, they're the heroic defenders of a people, the "last line of defense" against a future doom, valiant protectors of the future, who tell themselves how much they should be hailed for their noble efforts.

And all of you are completely full of shit on every level. Let's break it down.

First off, compiling a website full of videos that creates a narrative that Palestinians are inherently evil subhuman monsters and savages who understand only hate and violence, does not help Jews. At all. It has never protected a Jew, and it never will. Not in Israel. Not in Belgium. Not in Australia, not in Iran, nowhere. What it does do is create justifications and excuses for mistreatment of the people targeted. This is the logic that Vanguard News Network uses - that compiling a bunch of "news" about the evils of blacks, Jews, and Mexicans protects the white race.

Second, no matter how much say this is "self-defense" against "potential" victimization, there is no logic to support that notion. You cannot abuse people now and then say "but it's okay because I think they would have abused me in the future," the world doesn't really work like that. This is the logic of people who say that dead black children aren't a problem since "they grow up to be thugs anyway."

Third, exploiting the victimization of Jews to excuse and justify victimization of Palestinians is just cynical and vile. As if someone defacing a synagogue in Perth clears the way for torching a mosque in Hebron. Again, it certainly doesn't help the first victim, it just creates a second one.

Fourth, none of this is changing the opinions of the opponents you talk about. do you think oppressing Palestinians is going to win over Stormfront posters? Do you think blowing up Gazans is going to make friends with the Arab nations? Maybe I'm wrong on this one, it certainly looks like violence against Arabs has made the English Defense League the Zionist movement's best friend in britain... But I would think in most cases, it certainly doesn't create any positives in this area.

What it looks like to me is that you and the others you mention are simply engaging in a fucked-up revenge fantasy and are trying to conjure up some way to make that sound less shitty than it actually is (and failing). That's the best case scenario. Worst case is that you're all a bunch of genocidal perverts and freaks who are simply projecting your grotesque emotional and ethical deformities onto others.

That's Pallywood in a nutshell. I'm very serious when I ask that you list at least 3-4 things you find disturbing with the Palestinian advocacy demonstrated in that video.

well first problem, "Israellycool" is not a source of Palestinian advocacy. Rather the opposite, in fact, and I'm disturbed that you can't figure that out. Second problem is that tween-age girls are the absolute bane of my ears' existence. I found their voices to be extremely disturbing to my sense of zen. Third, and one you probably share, is at the 4:25 mark, when one of the girls is shoving the little boy into the soldier. Fourth, the comments on the video are all pretty uniformly disturbing, but that's pretty much par for the course with youtube comments. Past that, all I see is some Israeli soldiers being amused at a very shrill little girl telling them off at a Nabi Saleh demonstration.

But please tell me how this is the deepest pit of evil and how "restrained" the Israelis are for not blowing her head off or something.

[oberliner]

40. Why do you have a troll account on Stormfront?

Just curious.

[Scootaloo]

42. Seems pretty self-explanatory

Never did get around to using it, though. I think I posted something about neanderthals back around 2002. I ended up getting distracted by a rather more interesting hotbed of right-wing nutjobbery, RightNation. In addition to the cuckooland of Above Top Secret

Anyway, the account persists, and I peek in every couple months or so to see what's going on. so I guess it's more of a spy account.

[shira]

41. Yes, IMO anti-zios are very similar to the Stormfront crowd....

Almost identical in every way. The worst of the worst from Stormfront is explained away and whitewashed when it's the Palestinians or other progressives owning such views.

And yes, anti-zios do equate zionists with Jews. That's why Jewish state policy (and really no other) is compared all the time to the Nazis. It's why anti-zios constantly rant about ethnic (jewish) supremacy and zionist control of ________, just like Stormfront. It's why, if you ask them, the VAST majority would have turned Jews of the holocaust era back to the pits of Europe rather than accept them into Palestine. Just like Helen Thomas was saying (back to Poland, Germany). Fun fact about Helen is she's still considered a hero to the anti-zio crowd for speaking her mind. So yeah, anti-zios see zionists=jews=israelis, etc. They speak in code about "zionists", just like David Duke. If you don't believe me, believe THEM. You'll find what I'm saying is true if you do your homework on the most popular anti-zio websites and organizations.

Your power disparity argument when dealing with racism is a perfect example of what's wrong with the far Left today. Racism is only problematic if the right people are the targets of that bigotry. Otherwise "YAWN".... and therefore so much for the progressive virtue of universal human rights for all when it comes to anti-zio advocacy. Second, is that anti-zios are willfully blind to jew-hatred when the most VILE and despicable nazi-era examples are presented to their faces (regardless of the source, which is entirely irrelevant). Rather than condemn it in no uncertain terms, they're indifferent to it altogether. Why not condemn it while also advocating for Palestinian rights? Anti-zios can't do that as they feel they'd be betraying the Palestinians if they made such call-outs (which goes to show support for a vile racist agenda IMO). Third, your victim/oppressor narrative is flawed. If it were only Israel vs. Palestinians that would be one thing, but this has always been an Arab/Israel conflict (and with Iran included, it's Islamist vs. Israel too). Look at a map and compare Israel to the rest of that part of the world. It's THIS that emboldens Israel's enemies. They see themselves as a whole FAR mightier than tiny Israel. They feel time is on their side. And sure, while Israel holds a military advantage and can beat the crap out of all of them combined, the question is 'at what cost'? If you checked a map, Israel has very LITTLE room for error where most of its population could be attacked rather easily. Where does this factor into your victim/oppressor thinking?

You wonder how those PMW videos help the situation? Well, they help explain why there's no peace and why Israel cannot simply capitulate to every absurd demand made of neighboring regimes that truly want them dead. Ignoring those videos is to ignore the key behind the conflict. The very same issue that existed before Israel just decided one day to start oppressing innocent Palestinians. Is it REALLY too much to expect Israel to wait until the Palestinians genuinely show peaceful intent before handing over their security to them? Suppose Israel gets out of the W.Bank entirely....tomorrow. Palestine is free to arm themselves to the teeth and invite foreign enemy forces onto their soil if they wish, to line up tanks and artillery, missiles, and an air-force on the high grounds overlooking most of Israel's population. Easy pickings. And you think Israel would be wise to do this in light of all that vile trash we see on those PMW videos (which is just as prevalent throughout the mideast)? Are you insane? Anyway....THAT'S why those PMW videos are important. Those who willfully ignore them seem to be beying for imminent war and bloodshed, the likes that haven't been seen in that region yet (especially when Israel will have to defend against that). The bottom line being that Israel is so small, a massive attack with modern weaponry would do MASSIVE damage to such a small area populated by millions of hated Jews.

The Shirley-Temper Pallywood video does not only show those kids being pushed into IDF soldiers. It's a perfect example demonstrating typical anti-zio Pallywood efforts that deliberately put young children in harm's way to provoke a reaction that will become headline news throughout the world (minus the "racist" Pallywood context, of course). So people around the world won't know WHY soldiers react like they do. All they'll know is that the IDF just goes on oppressing innocents b/c they're racist Zionist Nazi fucks and that's what they do. This is beyond obscene. Imagine Israel setting up Palestinians like that, using their own Israeli kids as fodder, to paint Palestinians as the worst of the worst Nazis of all time. Hasbara-wood. No one can imagine this because it's insane. But knowing you, you'll say this example of Pallywood is no problem considering the victim/oppressor status of I/P. Nevermind the ramifications throughout the world, like in Tolouse or Mumbai, where Jews are killed because the IDF reportedly acts like Nazis for no reason. Tell me....do you agree with that type of anti-zio advocacy? The people involved in that Shirley-Temper video are from the ISM (same folks involved with FreeGaza, Britain's PSC, ElectronicIntifada, Mondoweiss). All anti-zios LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the wonderful ISM. Can I assume you're not really bothered with western progressives supporting the tactics seen in that video? I mean, if THEY'RE okay with using Palestinian kids as fodder and political pawns, why shouldn't a nice progressive like yourself be? AGAIN, all anti-zios absolutely HEART the ISM and its little anti-zio affiliates out there, dedicated to fighting the Zionists down to the last Palestinian child.

[Scootaloo]

43. I'm running out of post titles!

And yes, anti-zios do equate zionists with Jews. That's why Jewish state policy (and really no other) is compared all the time to the Nazis.

Which I've seen and do (usually, more on this in a second) object to, along with "the Jews should have learned something!" which is, IMO, probably one of the most offensive claims I see.

I say "usually" because there are occasions that the parallels can be drawn. The riots in Tel Aviv, targeting Africans, their homes and businesses, incited by seated members of Knesset, calling for a removal of the "cancer" and screaming about Israel's "Jewish Character"? I'm sorry but that does draw an obvious comparison to Kristallnacht. Where the comparison is apt, there's no problem making the comparison. Often though when the comparison is made, it's not with specific policies and actions in mind, it's just "harglblargleh Israel are nazi rarghraggleblargh!" equating the totality of Israel with the totality of the Third Reich... which is indeed absolute fucking nonsense.

Your claim that only Israel gets this treatment however, is also nonsense. I seriously doubt there is not a nation since 1933 that has not been compared to the Nazis, by someone with a perfectly straight face. Right this moment, there are people on both sides of the Us political spectrum insisting that the United States is run by Nazis. We had a long run of comparing the USSR to the Nazis. You are constantly comparing the entire Arab race to Nazis, and your counterparts in the Ziosphere often attribute Naziism to all Muslims - in addition of course, to absolutely every country on earth that is not Israel. I've seen fandoms compared to Nazis, Shira. Seriously, you think Israel is all alone in this arena? Give me a break. The term "Nazi" has diluted to basically mean "someone i dislike and want to insult."

With regard to Israel, it is especially low-hanging fruit, of course. I refer you to my earlier position of smugly righteous people who haven't applied much thought.

Your power disparity argument when dealing with racism is a perfect example of what's wrong with the far Left today.

You keep using that term, "far left," I do not think it means what you think it means.

No Shira, the concept of power disparity is a regular and stable feature of discussion of and studies on racism. Again, there's a reason why "ni**er" is considered a worse word than "honkey." How much worse? Well...

If you find that you are debating which word is worse, and you have to censor one word entirely... that's the worse word.

It's a perfect example demonstrating typical anti-zio Pallywood efforts that deliberately put young children in harm's way to provoke a reaction that will become headline news throughout the world (minus the "racist" Pallywood context, of course).

It's a ten year old girl, Shira. I somehow think that the soldiers can easily resist responding to her "provocations." In fact they seem to be doing a pretty good job of it. if you notice, they seem to think she's funny as all get-out. What, do you think they should beat her to the ground with their rifle butts or something? Praise their "restraint" for not doing so, perhaps?

But knowing you, you'll say this example of Pallywood is no problem considering the victim/oppressor status of I/P.

I don't think it's a problem. it has less to do with the power disparity than the fact that I don't really have a problem with children being involved in protest and demonstration. If violence is a foregone conclusion, that's different of course, but simply demonstrating (or in her case, making noises like a rooster with a tracheotomy) isn't an issue for me. Children are part of the community, the issues at hand affect them as surely as adults. As I said this goes well beyond Israel and Palestine, all the way back to where I'm currently living, and children are part of the ongoing protest at the side of a gravel mine that someone wants to reopen.

[shira]

44. Point proven about anti-zios in general.....

You left a lot of that last post unanswered.

But to take just one example from the end (Shirley Temper video), it should be obvious to anyone with a conscience that it's sick to sacrifice one of your children's lives by getting them to antagonize enemy soldiers in order to get some decent footage embarassing the IDF. No progressive in his/her right mind should be encouraging others to sacrifice their children like this. It's fucking nuts.

This is what Arafat had to say about it.

Progressives shouldn't be enabling this. Arafat is encouraging more war and bloodshed, which hasn't worked out so well for the Palestinian people. And here we see "progressives" like yourself cheerleading this sick Palestinian fight, down to the very last child?

Come on.

Those who place the propaganda value of getting footage of children shot or hurt above kids' well-being are monsters. Here's the same girl (Shirley Temper) suffering the effects of tear gas prior to the Pallywood video.



Cheering this sick child-sacrifice on may be something wonderful to monstrous assholes & warmongers like Arafat, who would gladly use children for PR value.....but not so much for progressives and liberals.

Here's the BBC using this girl in a photo to report on Israeli brutality. Nothing about faked footage & propaganda....


Welcome to Pallywood!

[Scootaloo]

45. As I said, I'm not going to waste time on your straw men

You want to rant and froth about how all anti-Zionists on earth are exactly as you say they are, which is to say, completely evil treacherous monsters, depraved and mindless subhumans who are rubbing our knuckles and gleefully awaiting Jewskin lampshades or something. Fine, you do that, but don't expect me to waste time answering that.

But to take just one example from the end (Shirley Temper video), it should be obvious to anyone with a conscience that it's sick to sacrifice one of your children's lives by getting them to antagonize enemy soldiers in order to get some decent footage embarassing the IDF. No progressive in his/her right mind should be encouraging others to sacrifice their children like this. It's fucking nuts.

Once again, you are recycling antisemitism. "ARABS SACRIFICE CHILDREN!" is simply Jewish blood libel being pointed at the Palestinians. As I very patiently explained to you, no child is being "sacrificed" here. The soldiers don't appear 'antagonized' in the least. The girl's life is in no jeopardy.

Progressives shouldn't be enabling this. Arafat is encouraging more war and bloodshed, which hasn't worked out so well for the Palestinian people. And here we see "progressives" like yourself cheerleading this sick Palestinian fight, down to the very last child?

It's telling that when you see Palestinians in the middle of the West Bank protesting about a settlement confiscating their land and even the local spring, you call it "this sick Palestinian fight." As I said, this girl is as affected as the other 529 residents of her village and has every tight to be involved in demonstrations against the situation they are in. And again, this is a standard I extend to pretty much everywhere.

Here's the BBC using this girl in a photo to report on Israeli brutality. Nothing about faked footage & propaganda....

Well, because none of it is faked, Shira. All the stuff in the article really happened. The BBC article tells you Mr. Tamimi was arrested, why he was arrested, what the charges are, and his role in organizing stone-throwing, as well as reporting charges that he got his ass kicked during the arrest. The photo does not purport brutality - how could it, nothing is going on except a little girl raising a fist to a skinny dude who would not only not feel it, but as your video shows, wouldn't even respond to it with more than a smirk.

I suppose when you have convinced yourself that an entire class of people are child-sacrificing subhuman filth deserving of wholesale purging, violent and sadistic genocidal monsters whose existence cannot be tolerated, who must be abused, degraded, and killed as a form of "self defense," then maybe you're prone to seeing shit that just isn't there when you read news articles involving them.

[shira]

46. Fascinating how you refuse to see the child's parents & western enablers.....

....hoping that this child will goad a soldier into a violent reaction for the camera. The child does indeed have every right to be at a demonstration, but what right do adults have to intentionally put her out in front & directly into harm's way? Who do you personally know who would send their own child up to a soldier (US, British, Jordanian, Chinese) hoping that the soldier vents a little violent frustration out on their kid? If the parents want to do that shit, more power to them, but sending a kid?

Really?

And the press doesn't report it like that. They'd report such an incident as an unprovoked spontaneous act. This is manufactured propaganda, i.e.. Pallywood.

But I think I get you now. Absolutely no criticism of Palestinians is legit. At Israelis sure, but not Palestinians. That's why you see all criticism of them as racist.

[Scootaloo]

47. You keep making these leaping assumptions, Shira.

You assume, first off, that the parents are "hoping that the soldier vents a little violent frustration out on their kid." As I said, this is simply you using blood libel against the Palestinians. Further, it doesn't have any evidence behind it, just your assumptions that the Palestinians are inherently nefarious child-sacrificing deviants.

Further, you seem to assume that this is how the soldier is likely to behave. Or perhaps even implying such a response would be acceptable. As far as I can tell, those guys are well within their ability to ignore and laugh at the "provocations" of a ten year old. Most people in the world are, after all. You however, seem to believe that they would, or perhaps even should rise to the provocation and respond with violence.

[shira]

48. Then what's the motivation for putting the girl out there in front of enemy soldiers....

....to do her thing, in front of the rolling cameras? What's the point?

[Scootaloo]

49. In your own words...

The child does indeed have every right to be at a demonstration

I'm getting the idea that it's the cameras you really object to.

[shira]

50. Rrrriiiiight. You wrote that the girl pushing the kid into the soldiers disturbed you.....

Third, and one you probably share, is at the 4:25 mark, when one of the girls is shoving the little boy into the soldier.

Exactly why did that disturb you? Please explain.

The kid pushed into the soldier was pushed because __________?

[Scootaloo]

51. Because the person pushing him is a kid, too

I'd estimate that she's fourteen. He looks about seven. I'm going to take a crazy guess that she's not his mother.

It disturbs be because it's a fucking dumb thing to do. And while I would expect a kid her age to have a little more damn sense, I also understand she very likely doesn't have much sense.

It's a rather different thing than your assertion that "parents are sacrificing their children."

[shira]

52. She pushed the boy into the soldier to provoke a reaction for the cameras....

And the soldiers are laughing because they're not buying the bait. They know they're being goaded into doing something that would embarass the IDF in headlines everywhere.

Putting kids into the front line is exactly what Palestinian leadership calls for, as the Arafat video above shows when he praises child martyrs. That video is not some "one-off" video either. There are literally hundreds that show Palestinians promoting a death cult; more than willing to sacrifice children, encouraging children to seek death, and praising those who die. One video after the next.

I know you're not interested in these videos.

Apparently none of this is happening in your view, because to even acknowledge this is racist. We cannot have a productive conversation here because one of us refuses to deal with reality. It's why our views are so dramatically different.

Why do you do it? Why can't you acknowledge what's happening?

[Scootaloo]

53. Uh huh, Palestinian death cult.

You know what, Shira? I'm going to forward you to this guy. It sounds like the two of you would really hit it off, and I am completely certain he'll be able to give you the sort of discussion you are so desperate to have.

[shira]

54. When Abbas, Arafat & Hamas promote, encourage, praise, & glorify child martyrdom......

...call it whatever you wish. But don't deny it.

Failing to acknowledge reality is why your "solutions" to the conflict are nonsensical and absurd.

This utter lack of empathy for Jewish Israelis who are forced to deal with this reality (a relentless enemy totally committed to their annihilation) is one reason "progressive" anti-zionists are considered enemies of the Jewish people along with Hamas, the David Dukes, and neo-Nazis. We cannot help but see you providing cover for and supporting THEIR cause against "the Zionists".

What you and yours are doing is the EXACT same thing as those denying very clear and present threats to the safety of gays, women, blacks, and muslims who are the targets of hatred. It's contemptible.

[Scootaloo]

55. No, what I'm doing is waiting for you to finish screaming yourself to sleep

Like I said before, I'm not going to waste my time on your straw men, and I honestly can't see much point in going after your breathless diatribes, either. No point I will make will convince you that Palestinian are in fact not subhuman monsters, or that taking their side in something doesn't make someone a Nazi.

My point about Daniel Seaman stands. Thank you for your contributions to that point. Have a good day, Shira.

[oberliner]

56. "No point I will make will convince you that Palestinian are in fact not subhuman monsters"

Ever feel that way with respect to the way some people here sometimes characterize Israelis too?

I know I have on occasion.

[Scootaloo]

59. Well Oberliner I'll tell you what

When I see some regulars ranting about the child-sacrificing, blood-drinking, world-controlling Jewish Death Cult and making arguments to justify the butchery and oppression of Jews on the basis of this, and don't get their asses righteously banhammered - as our friend Shira is doing about the Palestinians, without ever getting a nudge from our illustrious admin, then I'll come back and consider the validity of your comparison.

There's negative portrayal, and then there's psychotic ranting. You should learn the difference.

[oberliner]

61. I've seen it

PM me and I can show you some examples.

[shira]

62. Right. Discussing the reality of the situation, the reasons behind more than 80 years of conflict..

....is nothing short of racist. It's the settlements and zio-nazis who are the problem. When these white-nationalist zionists say they've lost loved ones to terror, when they say they watch their TV's and still see all those PMW videos calling them apes and pigs who have no right to live, those living with the rockets.....well, they're just making excuses. They're racists who have absolutely nothing to fear.



It's no wonder none of you have any answers to the I/P or greater Arab/Israel conflict. You're not dealing with reality. Nothing you present will work given that your assessment of the situation is incomplete and based on bullshit. You're doing more harm than good with your ridiculous input here and elsewhere, and you wonder why none of you are taken seriously and are seen as anti-Jewish?

Reminds me of ignoramous religious whackos who think they know it all, don't know jack-shit, and are oblivious to facts and logical argument.

[shira]

57. There's a big difference between labeling Palestinians sub-human monsters....

....and actually discussing or dealing with the views & actions of a significant % of that population.

You refuse to even acknowledge this phenomenon, pretending it's not happening at all. I'm trying to understand why this refusal, this dishonesty, this reason to provide cover for the ridiculously vile views we see in 100's of PMW videos....

------------

I wonder what you make of Arafat in this video...

Do you believe condemning that is to condemn all Palestinians?

[Scootaloo]

58. When you are defining all Palestinians by it yes, it is

Now, as I said, I'm done.

[shira]

60. So Arafat's words define all Palestinians in your view....

Let's remember this discussion the next time you feel you have some "reality based" solutions to this conflict.

I can't help but find this fascinating.

[azurnoir]

36. very well said thank you

albeit and predictably it was blown off by the person it was addressed to

[shira]

63. This post deserves a more detailed response. Call this Part 1...

It's late here and I need to sleep, but here's a start...

Want to explain to me how one minute you are affronted and aghast and offended by someone making spurious comparisons to Nazis, and now here you are, cramming Nazis in every with third word? It makes it clear that you really have no actual argument to make and instead want to rely on the invective of accusing someone you disagree with of being a Nazi. You, who get your nits in a twist over someone using the term "apartheid," are here accusing everyone you disagree with of endorsing the Holocaust. I know you're not going to spare even a moment to allow the staggering absurdity to sink in, but I still feel the need to point it out in the hopes that maybe it'll register and you'll achieve a satori moment.

I actually do think people are Nazis when they hold horribly antisemitic views and are dismissive and generally unmoved by genocidal incitement and violent acts against Jews. Yep, people who support or tacitly support others who want Jews dead, maimed, or whatever are Nazis in my view. It's simplistic, but I own what I believe.

My point in bringing up Nazis WRT Israel, and you agree, is that it's highly offensive to accuse most or all Jews (the victims of Naziism) to Nazis themselves. It's like accusing Blacks of lynching or enslaving others. When it's only Israel (or 99% of the time only Israel) being compared to the Nazis, and NEVER other countries that make Israel look saintly in comparison, the comparison is antisemitic. How am I wrong?

I assure you that most anti-Zionists don't harbor any such notion. Some do, no doubt, we've both seen 'em. let me clue you in via the magic of personal anecdotes!

If you had bumped into be back around, I dunno, 2001, I probably would have been one of those people. Seriously, I very likely would have explained to you how suicide bombing a bus was a form of self-defense or some bullshit like that. Why? Not out of any hate for Jews, any love for Nazis, or any bullshit like that. it was because I was young, and though my knowledge was shallow and opinions immature, I was utterly convinced I had it all figured out. And what I had figured out was that extreme situations call for extreme measures. Basically, all I saw was the situation itself, and not the people involved. I can't say that there was some great epiphany that led me past this. I just grew up, learned more, developed a stronger sense of empathy. I still recognize the situation as an extreme one that calls for some sort of action - but there are clear limits about what that action should be.

This is what Israel advocacy is all about. You held that belief because __________? Was it the media or what? Who put that crap into your mind? And yes, while what you once believed was ignorant it still doesn't diminish from the fact that it was also hateful (Palestinians had every right to target innocent Jews and if it's against Jews it's not really terrorism). Try to see this from my POV and I see a clear double standard. Innocents are untouchable everywhere except for when it's Israelis and they're Jews. Then it's justified. Jews of all people have it coming to them. This is still a view held by the vast majority of anti-zionists and you wonder why I call them nazis? I realize it's an extreme accusation from me. How else am I to view people who are indifferent to or who justify these acts of violence and murder against Jews?

I suspect that a fair number of those knucklehead saying "terrorism is legitimate resistance" or whatever just haven't bothered to think about it. Like my younger self, they just see a situation and not the people in that situation, and are so convinced of their own rightness that it blinds them to the human reality. I actually suspect you are in the same boat in that regard Shira, though coming from the opposite direction.

I'm not in the same boat. I don't believe the IDF is so desperate that any act of violence against Palestinians is justified or legit.

It's not the video. It's the context that video is placed within. Everything, absolutely everything on CAMERA, PalWatch, and MEMRI is negative. Every single video, every single editorial, every piece of media is saying" look, here, what beasts the Palestinians are. Look at what hateful monsters they are. They are savages. They are uncontrollable. They are genocidal. These are not even human beings, they are evil creatures." They are creating a narrative for you to view and reach the conclusion that oh yes, the Palestinian are an abomination upon the Earth and Israel is justified in everything it does to them.

If this is the case, then you should have MAJOR problems with anti-zio websites where EVERYTHING is negative about Israel and Zionists. Every video, editorial, every bit of media pointing to how nazi like and racist the Zionists are. Your sources are creating a narrative for you too, right?

Now to answer you, I don't have a problem with CAMERA, PalWatch, and MEMRI bashing extreme Jihadis or Islamists in the Muslim Brotherhood, or Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, etc... who want Jews dead. Most people are totally unaware of the actual I/P situation b/c all they see is Pallywood. It's important that objective, reasonable people see I/P the way Israelis see it. That doesn't happen without CAMERA and Israeli media. Most people see what you used to see a decade ago and that's proven to be DANGEROUS to Jews not only in Israel but worldwide over the past 10 years, as antisemitic acts have spiked across the world - and in large measure due to all the anti-Israel crap out there.

My problem is with the folks who trash these websites....who deny, dismiss, and deflect from all the vile genocidal discourse and acts perpetrated by the aforementioned thuggish groups and organizations. These people GENUINELY believe that to be critical of Hamas, the MB, Hezbollah, etc... is racist in itself as these groups speak for and represent all Palestinians or all Arabs, Muslims, etc. (a racist position in itself). It's one reason why they (and you) are hesitant and very reluctant to acknowledge reality (fear of being labeled racist). And of course from my POV, those who willfully deny, ignore, and deflect from all that material from CAMERA, MEMRI, and PalWatch (all that genocidal incitement, jews are apes/pigs) cannot possibly be liberals. You know what I think of them. It's highly offensive to accuse Jews of being racists and nazis for daring to call out extreme groups who call for the annihilation of these jewish apes and pigs.

[Scootaloo]

64. Well, it looks like you're actually up for a discussion! Hot damn!

I actually do think people are Nazis when they hold horribly antisemitic views and are dismissive and generally unmoved by genocidal incitement and violent acts against Jews. Yep, people who support or tacitly support others who want Jews dead, maimed, or whatever are Nazis in my view. It's simplistic, but I own what I believe.

I refrain from calling people Nazis unless they express an adherence to Naziism of some form or another. It's a precise term describing a particular strain of fascism. To apply it willy-nilly really just makes the term worthless. And as I pointed out, you seem to do this on a regular basis. You also seem to assume that anyone who disagrees with you "wants jews dead." If you ask me, your efforts really do nothing but trivialize the crimes of the Nazis and the suffering of the Holocaust, to the point where you might as well be talking about it as if it were a day without hot water.

My point in bringing up Nazis WRT Israel, and you agree, is that it's highly offensive to accuse most or all Jews (the victims of Naziism) to Nazis themselves. It's like accusing Blacks of lynching or enslaving others. When it's only Israel (or 99% of the time only Israel) being compared to the Nazis, and NEVER other countries that make Israel look saintly in comparison, the comparison is antisemitic. How am I wrong?

We agree that it's offensive. However we can't seem to agree on something vitally important - "Jews" and "Israel" are not synonyms. They mean different things. There is a degree of relatedness of course, but they are still different things. An Israeli does not have to be a Jew nor does a Jew have to be an Israeli. Please, get this simple concept squared away in your head, your inability or unwillindness to do so is causing no end of problems for discussing anything with you.

I think we've been over this "no other country is ever compared to the Nazis!" thing before. This last week the Secretary of State paraded around Europe claiming that Assad was Hitler, the Syrians are Nazis, and that Europe was again conducting appeasment. You, as we just noted, compare absolutely everybody - including most nations on earth - to the Nazis. Poke through DU, see how often the Bush administration is likened to the Nazis. "Nazi" is a go-to political insult that has been applied to pretty much every nation, government, and organization under the sun since 1945, Shira.

Are you really going to try to tell me that only Israel has ever been likened ot he Nazis? because that's really what it looks like you're saying here, and the idea is just laughable.

This is what Israel advocacy is all about. You held that belief because __________? Was it the media or what? Who put that crap into your mind? And yes, while what you once believed was ignorant it still doesn't diminish from the fact that it was also hateful (Palestinians had every right to target innocent Jews and if it's against Jews it's not really terrorism). Try to see this from my POV and I see a clear double standard. Innocents are untouchable everywhere except for when it's Israelis and they're Jews. Then it's justified. Jews of all people have it coming to them. This is still a view held by the vast majority of anti-zionists and you wonder why I call them nazis? I realize it's an extreme accusation from me. How else am I to view people who are indifferent to or who justify these acts of violence and murder against Jews?

Well once again, I can tell the difference between Jews and Israel. Always could. I hope someday you'll join me on this particular cloud of enlightenment.

The media? Really Shira, have you ever paid the slightest amount of attention to what American media says about Israel, Palestine, or the middle east as a whole? Or do you just go by third-hand accounts, of what your fellow Zionists assure you the media says?

Know what the media told me about all this? It told me that Arabs are evil, violent people who only understand force. it taught me that the Saudis are disgusting perverts who collect white women for harems. it taught me that Saddam Hussein was worse than Hitler, and led me to cheer as Iraqis were brutalized, bombed, and starved into their own personal apocalypse. The media taught me that Palestinians are the worst of the bunch, terrorists and animals one and all, brutal and incapable of thinking of anything beyond a desire to blow themselves up so that they can fuck virgins forever. The media taught me that Israel is "just like us," a perfect, unsullied, untarnished democracy and haven of white perfect people, who just happen to be trying to survive wave after wave of Muslim zombies trying to push them into the sea.

No, the media was not the source of these notions... well, perhaps in a knee-jerk, adolescent sort of "YOU LIED TO ME!" sort of way, perhaps? You know how when a teenager finds out something an authority figure told them wasn't true, so they decide EVERYTHING told to them is a lie? Maybe something like that.

No, I told you why I held such notions. I also held that the Irish, Chechens, and Kurds had every right in the world to blow up the English, Russians, and Turks. I wasn't drawing special exceptions for Israel, it had nothing to do with Jews, it was because I was young, politically immature, and figured violence got shit done, and the oppressors suffering the violence weren't entitled to have a problem with it - that they had brought it upon their own heads. Very much the sort of "someone hits you, hit them back harder!" approach. This is also the point in my life where I thought skinheads looked best with gashed scalp wounds administered with a bike chain. Never have i claimed to be a saint

Now, if all that is your definition of "Nazi," what are we to make of you? You and your constant justification of violence and murder against Arabs? Your advocacy for purging them from their homes, whether it be in Jaffa in 1947, Jerusalem in 1967, or the Naqab in 2013? Your insistence that all the violence they suffer, they "bring upon themselves," paired with your bizarre insistence that they actually suffer no violence, that it's all faked and fantasy, "Pallywood," and that people in Gaza are actually dining at five-star restaurants, living it up and fooling the world.

It's ironic perhaps that we likely see each other as Nazis. But you're the Nazi in support of violent action against captive populations and racially-tiered legal systems and casual brutality and bestialization against an unfavored race, while I'm the Nazi advocating integration, recognition of common humanity, and admission of rights for those who have been oppressed and victimized. if we're both Nazis, one of us is tyruer to the "classic" form, and I don't think it's going to be me, by any measure.

I'm not in the same boat. I don't believe the IDF is so desperate that any act of violence against Palestinians is justified or legit.

I wasn't talking about the IDF. I was talking about you and the attitudes you show. That said, I don't regard the IDF as having especially high standards, either. You can spare me the sentiments about the "most restrained military ever," because that really just serves to highlight that you think the Palestinians deserve worse than the IDF delivers, which really isn't going to make you look very good.

If this is the case, then you should have MAJOR problems with anti-zio websites where EVERYTHING is negative about Israel and Zionists. Every video, editorial, every bit of media pointing to how nazi like and racist the Zionists are. Your sources are creating a narrative for you too, right?

Perhaps if Israel were at the same time being wholly denied its right to rebutt such things, yes. But as we both know, Israel is free and able to speak out whenever wherever it wants. it has the ear of governments, it operates propaganda arms, both paid and volunteer, it has no difficulty getting the Israel perspective out.

If I read something on say, the Hasbara Buster blog (dude doesn't seem to update anymore, but whatever) that throws turds at Israel about something, then I can probably go somewhere else to find an Israeli perspective of that same thing. Often several dozen. Oftentimes as direct rebuttal to that blogger.

The opposite is not necessarily true. Whenever I see some anti-Palestinian bullshit... most often when I look up a counterpoint, I just find constant repetitions of the anti-Palestinian bullshit. Again the Zionist angle - call it "pro-Israel" all you want - has plenty of outlets to propagate their hatred of Palestinians but there are by many margins fewer such outlets for Palestinians. Yes, despite SOME people's claims that Palestinains control the world media, I know.

Even when I do find some counterpoint, it's most often being made by Israeli Jews - 976mag, Mondoweiss, these sorts of places are not staffed, written, and published by Palestinians, but rather by Palestinian advocates.

So the discussion of Zionism vs, Antizionism, Israel vs. Palestine... is overwhelmingly dominated by people who are not Palestinians, who are overwhelmingly anti-Palestinian in fact.

So it comes down to the power differnetial again. I can find a blog that says, oh, Israel is a pack of evil rat-eating sons of bitches and htey should all die! or something like that, and that's fucking absurd and reprehensible... and I will find dozens of other sources that say, "yes, that dude is absurd and reprehensible." But then I look at CAMERA that shows only the absolute worst of Palestinians it can find, and claims that it represents them all fairly and accurately... and there's no rebuttal, because the people being targeted are simply not afforded their own voice?

Now to answer you, I don't have a problem with CAMERA, PalWatch, and MEMRI bashing extreme Jihadis or Islamists in the Muslim Brotherhood, or Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, etc... who want Jews dead. Most people are totally unaware of the actual I/P situation b/c all they see is Pallywood. It's important that objective, reasonable people see I/P the way Israelis see it. That doesn't happen without CAMERA and Israeli media. Most people see what you used to see a decade ago and that's proven to be DANGEROUS to Jews not only in Israel but worldwide over the past 10 years, as antisemitic acts have spiked across the world - and in large measure due to all the anti-Israel crap out there.

Except that's not what they do. These organizations purport to five a fair and analytical analysis of Palestine... and then they give you these two-to-five minute excerpts of television broadcasts, carefully selected to be grotesque and offensive samples, and that is presented as the fair and balanced portrait of Palestinians.

And here you are defending it, after just stomping around screaming "NAZI! ANTISEMITE! HOLOCAUST!" when faced with media the least bit critical of Israeli policies and Zionist ideology.

Which brings me to the next point. Do you know why antisemitism has "spiked"? It's not because of the media, which is as fawning as ever for Israel - and is even more hateful towards Arabs and Muslims than when I was that angry young dude. In fact if you want to argue about the media inciting bigoted attacks, you're going to want to talk about mosque burnings and assaults on men in turbans.

it's certainly not "Pallywood." Like its cousin "Holohoax," "Pallywood" only exists in the minds and hard drives of people who want to believe it exists, and who get off - figuratively or literally - on their own self-righteous assurances that they and they alone "know the truth." No, "Pallywood" exists solely within the confines of Zionist back-patting and masturbation.

In fact, Palestinians and Arabs have pretty much nothing to do with it, except perhaps as a topical cover for people who would have been antisemite assholes anyway - sort of like how so many islamophobic assholes use Jews as a cover, like our old friend Pam Gellar.

No, the driving force behind antisemitism is the same as it's always been - and is ultimately the same driving force behind bigotry towards any visible minority. The minority becomes a scapegoat for hardship in their community - the Mexicans steal all the jobs, the blacks get all the welfare, the Jews hoard all the money, the Chinese take all the land, the Natives snatch all the fish, etc. And if you haven't noticed - it's been kinda big news, but I know how you distrust any media that doesn't come down the pipe from Harry's Place - large chunks of the world have been in economic freefall for the last few years. The predictable result is that racism increases in relation to such events

The quote marks around "spike" are because of course, these "studies" are conducted by persons and organizations that want to portray Jews as special and unique victims, and want to cast the rest of the world as having a special and unfathomable hatred directed only at Jews. The reality is that racist attacks and offenses have been increasing in general, and antisemitism is among them

In reality, antisemitism is not special or unique or different from other forms of racism. It's just that Jews were one of two visible and widespread minorities in Europe for much of its history, and so because of its European placement, is regarded to somehow be special or unique or of greater importance. Allow me to demonstrate.

We have the two "European" bigotries. They are antisemitism and antiziganism. Bigotry against Jews and bigotry against Romany, respectively. Okay, so far so good. So, what's the name for bigotry against blacks or Africans? Do we have a word for race-hatred against Native Americans? The first reduced Africa to a smouldering ruin of civilizations and the second led to the eradication of two continents' worth of human beings, a purge of humanity large enough that it ushered in a minor ice age, and we don't have names for either... because they're not European and thus not important enough to deserve individual terms in European books or discourse.

The supposed "uniqueness" of antisemitism is wholly arbitrary, and undeniably euro-centric. It's racist / ethnic bigotry like any other, stems from the same sources, and generally follows the same molds of negative characterizations.

Also, not to be snarky, but I wonder, if these people who insist every little thing is Jew-hate, analogous to the Nazis and the holocaust aren't inadvertently contributing to antisemitism. After all, if deciding to not buy flavored corn syrup to add to your seltzer water makes you a filthy Jew-hater... then does antisemitism really matter? Frankly Shira, people like you have used the word "antisemitism" as a shield against so much stupid shit, that you've practically worn it down to a useless nub. It's been reduced to a throw-away, ho-hum, so-what, who-cares notion. That's not to excuse people who engage in such hatred, or even to blame you for it... but I think eroding the perceived seriousness of racism is a contributing factor to promulgating it.

My problem is with the folks who trash these websites....who deny, dismiss, and deflect from all the vile genocidal discourse and acts perpetrated by the aforementioned thuggish groups and organizations. These people GENUINELY believe that to be critical of Hamas, the MB, Hezbollah, etc... is racist in itself as these groups speak for and represent all Palestinians or all Arabs, Muslims, etc. (a racist position in itself). It's one reason why they (and you) are hesitant and very reluctant to acknowledge reality (fear of being labeled racist). And of course from my POV, those who willfully deny, ignore, and deflect from all that material from CAMERA, MEMRI, and PalWatch (all that genocidal incitement, jews are apes/pigs) cannot possibly be liberals. You know what I think of them. It's highly offensive to accuse Jews of being racists and nazis for daring to call out extreme groups who call for the annihilation of these jewish apes and pigs.

As I noted before, it's not Hamas Media Watch - it's Palestine Media Watch. it's not the Islamic Jihad Media Research Institute - it's the Middle East Media Research Institute. It's to the Committee for Accuracy in Hezbollah Reporting, it's Comittee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting. These organizations you admire so much are taking these violent, criminal organizations and their media releases... and using them as a portrayal of the whole of Palestine, the whole of the Middle East. And they do so while claiming to be unbiased and analytical. If it were going "We're exposing the shit that terrorist organizations say!" that's be fine, but no, they're sampling extremists and smearing the entire Arab and Muslim world with it.

Again, look back to that Stormfront thread I told you about, the one about "Jewish criminals." It's the same goddamned concept, and it's NOT a difficult concept to follow. Can you imagine a BlackWatch organization that only provided news clips of gang violence and self-shot promos by the Crips?

Also? I can't help but get a laugh at people taking offense at being called apes. if you're not an ape, then what the fuck are you? A porpoise? I'm an ape, have been all my life. My parents were apes, and my children will be apes. I'm attracted to apes, I live with apes, I work with apes, I dine with apes. Intent or no, it's just not much of an insult. Pigs? well, they're a couple large branches away on the family tree, but they're still laurasiatheres, so long as you're not comparing me to a fucking afrothere or one of those goddamned xenarthans, am I right? Fucking toothless, tongue-whipping freaks...

[shira]

65. Let's debate til the death!

I refrain from calling people Nazis unless they express an adherence to Naziism of some form or another. It's a precise term describing a particular strain of fascism. To apply it willy-nilly really just makes the term worthless. And as I pointed out, you seem to do this on a regular basis. You also seem to assume that anyone who disagrees with you "wants jews dead." If you ask me, your efforts really do nothing but trivialize the crimes of the Nazis and the suffering of the Holocaust, to the point where you might as well be talking about it as if it were a day without hot water.

I call people who want Jews killed, whether they support it openly or tacitly, Nazis. I think it's appropriate.

We agree that it's offensive. However we can't seem to agree on something vitally important - "Jews" and "Israel" are not synonyms. They mean different things. There is a degree of relatedness of course, but they are still different things. An Israeli does not have to be a Jew nor does a Jew have to be an Israeli. Please, get this simple concept squared away in your head, your inability or unwillindness to do so is causing no end of problems for discussing anything with you.

The reason why it's antisemitic for anti-zios to equate Israel with the Nazis is because they don't do that with other countries. They single out Israel b/c it's the Jewish state and like all assholes they enjoy antagonizing Jews with the Nazi comparison.

Well once again, I can tell the difference between Jews and Israel. Always could. I hope someday you'll join me on this particular cloud of enlightenment.

You can, but why can't your anti-zio sources? They can't. Your 2 best sources (Tutu and Greenstein) conflate Jews with Zionists all the time.

No, the media was not the source of these notions...

Then what was the source? It didn't just pop into your head, as it did with your fellow anti-zios. What's the source?

Now, if all that is your definition of "Nazi," what are we to make of you? You and your constant justification of violence and murder against Arabs? Your advocacy for purging them from their homes, whether it be in Jaffa in 1947, Jerusalem in 1967, or the Naqab in 2013? Your insistence that all the violence they suffer, they "bring upon themselves," paired with your bizarre insistence that they actually suffer no violence, that it's all faked and fantasy, "Pallywood," and that people in Gaza are actually dining at five-star restaurants, living it up and fooling the world.

You've lied so many times about my views that I must demand you back up your bullshit from now on. All you have is bullshit ad-hominem. Little else... Very little.

It's ironic perhaps that we likely see each other as Nazis. But you're the Nazi in support of violent action against captive populations and racially-tiered legal systems and casual brutality and bestialization against an unfavored race, while I'm the Nazi advocating integration, recognition of common humanity, and admission of rights for those who have been oppressed and victimized. if we're both Nazis, one of us is tyruer to the "classic" form, and I don't think it's going to be me, by any measure.

Once again, I call BULLSHIT. Prove it.

Your nazi solution to I/P is to make Israel into another Egypt or Lebanon. How are the copts doing in Egypt with the Islamists? How are christians doing in Lebanon with the Islamists? And you think Jews will fare better with Hamas and Islamic Jihad? No, what you advocate is war, not peaceful co-existance.

Perhaps if Israel were at the same time being wholly denied its right to rebutt such things, yes. But as we both know, Israel is free and able to speak out whenever wherever it wants. it has the ear of governments, it operates propaganda arms, both paid and volunteer, it has no difficulty getting the Israel perspective out.

If I read something on say, the Hasbara Buster blog (dude doesn't seem to update anymore, but whatever) that throws turds at Israel about something, then I can probably go somewhere else to find an Israeli perspective of that same thing. Often several dozen. Oftentimes as direct rebuttal to that blogger.

What a ridiculous argument. You can't be serious.

That means once the Palestinians get their act together, put out better shit, do things like Israel or even better....then you'll stop claiming PalWatch is run by bigoted shitbags. Just the same, if Israel does a piss-poor job from here on in, your sources that bash them 24/7/365 become bigoted hate sites.

Same standard. They're either both bigoted or not. Stop with the bullshit double-standards. THAT's bigoted.

I mean really, when your sources conflate Jews with Zionists ALL THE FUCKING TIME and bash Israel and Zionists (Jews) 24/7/365, of course they're fucking bigoted shitbags! Get real!

But then I look at CAMERA that shows only the absolute worst of Palestinians it can find, and claims that it represents them all fairly and accurately... and there's no rebuttal, because the people being targeted are simply not afforded their own voice?

Dumbest.Argument.Ever.

Except that's not what they do. These organizations purport to give a fair and analytical analysis of Palestine... and then they give you these two-to-five minute excerpts of television broadcasts, carefully selected to be grotesque and offensive samples, and that is presented as the fair and balanced portrait of Palestinians.

It's a fair and balanced portrait of Hamas and the PA......the Israelis peace partner.

And here you are defending it, after just stomping around screaming "NAZI! ANTISEMITE! HOLOCAUST!" when faced with media the least bit critical of Israeli policies and Zionist ideology.

I don't care about least bit critical analysis. We're talking gi-normous propaganda spewed by Hamas and the PA and taken as gospel fact by Journalists. Like al-Dura, like the innocent "humanitarians" killed on the Mavi Marmara, the Jenin massacre, Free Gaza anti-racists, Hamas is actually moderate, inaccurate war stats on civilians killed. When Israel defends, they're always "deliberately" targeting innocents even though their stats on civilians is better than any other modern military. But Hamas says the IDF targets children and the media eats it up. Jews are child-killers, etc... Spikes in antisemitism globally as a result.

That's not the least bit critical. It's bullshit that skews perception significantly in the wrong direction.

Which brings me to the next point. Do you know why antisemitism has "spiked"? It's not because of the media, which is as fawning as ever for Israel - and is even more hateful towards Arabs and Muslims than when I was that angry young dude. In fact if you want to argue about the media inciting bigoted attacks, you're going to want to talk about mosque burnings and assaults on men in turbans.

It's spiked in part due to incitement against Jews (and Israel). It spiked after the Gaza war, for example.

it's certainly not "Pallywood." Like its cousin "Holohoax," "Pallywood" only exists in the minds and hard drives of people who want to believe it exists, and who get off - figuratively or literally - on their own self-righteous assurances that they and they alone "know the truth." No, "Pallywood" exists solely within the confines of Zionist back-patting and masturbation.

Once and for all about Pallywood, here's your challenge:

You admitted the IDF didn't shoot or kill al-Dura. Fine, so who did and why?

Don't run away from the answer either, if you're so sure Pallywood doesn't exist...

The quote marks around "spike" are because of course, these "studies" are conducted by persons and organizations that want to portray Jews as special and unique victims, and want to cast the rest of the world as having a special and unfathomable hatred directed only at Jews. The reality is that racist attacks and offenses have been increasing in general, and antisemitism is among them

Wrong, and this is the same spew coming from Greenstein, David Duke, and every other anti-Jewish asshole.

FBI stats show acts vs. Jews at 71.9% of incidents vs. 8.4% for Muslims in the USA. Just an FYI, but Jews are about double the population as Muslims, not 8X bigger. You'll find hate crimes vs. Jews way out of proportion compared to US Blacks too...
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/victims.html

It's no better in the UK between Muslims and Jews...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21712826

Jews are being attacked way out of proportion to their numbers.

These organizations you admire so much are taking these violent, criminal organizations and their media releases... and using them as a portrayal of the whole of Palestine, the whole of the Middle East. And they do so while claiming to be unbiased and analytical. If it were going "We're exposing the shit that terrorist organizations say!" that's be fine, but no, they're sampling extremists and smearing the entire Arab and Muslim world with it.

You seem oblivious to the fact that all this comes from state-run media. These are the governments speaking. They're doing nothing to counter this hate speech. In fact, what you see aren't some one-offs. They're what those governments actually espouse. Governments aren't people, so these aren't attacks on all people. That's just in your mind.

Again, look back to that Stormfront thread I told you about, the one about "Jewish criminals." It's the same goddamned concept, and it's NOT a difficult concept to follow. Can you imagine a BlackWatch organization that only provided news clips of gang violence and self-shot promos by the Crips?

Greenstein's, Mondoweiss, the ISM, BDS, etc... do the same thing, and yet you're okay with that. Power disparity nonsense withstanding, bigotry is bigotry and you're all for it when it's your side being the shitbags.

Also? I can't help but get a laugh at people taking offense at being called apes.

You're laughing at dehumanization. It's not funny.

[Scootaloo]

66. If we're not careful, people will think we're flirting!

I call people who want Jews killed, whether they support it openly or tacitly, Nazis. I think it's appropriate.

Except for first of all, it's simply not accurate. It's lazy on your part and as I said, really devalues the term. There are real, honest-and-for-true Nazis running around... both in the herp-derp dumbass realm of skinheads with swastika tattoos, and the really-running-shit realms represented by Greece's Golden Dawn. You don't need to paint people up as Nazis when there are actual Nazis to use the term for.

Someone who hates Jews, who wants Jews dead, is an antisemite. Most nazis are antisemites (yes, there are some who aren't - idiocy has many flavors) but probably most antisemites are not Nazis. Think of it as how not all communists are Marxists - you've got Maoists, Stalinists, Trotskiyites, Anarcho-communists, etc.

Second, I've gotten the impression from you that you think anything less than full-throated support for all things done by Israel, constitutes "tacitly" wanting to kill all the Jews. Maybe that's not your intent, but it sure is what comes out. This is awkward in any context, but it gets especially laughable when applied to most people you argue with on DU. Do you really think I want to kill all the Jews? That Azurnoir does? Shaayecanaan? Violet Crumble? C'mon, you know better.

The reason why it's antisemitic for anti-zios to equate Israel with the Nazis is because they don't do that with other countries. They single out Israel b/c it's the Jewish state and like all assholes they enjoy antagonizing Jews with the Nazi comparison.

As I said, we've covered this ground before. And as you said, we agree that calling Jews Nazis is pretty fucking low

Unless, I suppose, the Jew in question is a Nazi...


I was simply pointing out that Israel is far from the only nation on earth to get this accusation launched against it. "Nazi" is an easy, thoughtless insult. And yes, with Israel it becomes especially low-hanging fruit, for the "shock factor" value of it.

However - I always have a however, don't I? - I see no wrong in comparing specific actions or policies of one government to actions and policies of another government - and that includes the Third Reich. So long as you remember that these are similes ("The NSA snooping is like the Stasi!" rather than "The NSA is the Stasi!&quot it's all good, I figure.

You can, but why can't your anti-zio sources? They can't. Your 2 best sources (Tutu and Greenstein) conflate Jews with Zionists all the time.

Just a second. You asked me to name two decent anti-Zionists, and I did so (I didn't suppose I was allowed to nominate myself ). You don't agree with them - but then I don't agree with your choices of decent Zionists either, so I figure that's fair. I never said they're my sources. I read Greenstein's blog... but you've never seen me say "according to Tony Greenstein..." have you? No, he's more of a lead than a source - that is I find something he's talking about that piques my interest (less and less these days, I admit to not being terribly interested in UK politics) and I go to do my own research and form my own opinion on it. I don't think I've really followed Tutu all that much, I just know he's a decent person and an antizionist, so I named him for you

And yes, Tutu has used "Jewish Lobby" and "Israel Lobby" interchangeably... and that's where I've found him doing that. Now, to be fair, here are the names of a few pro-Israel lobby groups:
American Jewish Committee
Jewish Agency for Israel
Jewish Americans for Sarah Palin
Jewish Community Centre
Jewish Council for Public Affairs
Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs
Jewish Internet Defense Force
Jewish Leadership Council
Jewish Observer and Middle East Review
Jewish People Policy Institute
Jewish National Fund
United Jewish Israel Appeal

Now they can't accurately be called "Jewish lobby groups" - a Jewish lobby group would lobby on behalf of Jewish communities within the nation, and while I'm sure the men and women in these groups are supportive of those communities, they lobby on behalf of the 3/5 Jewish State over on the East Mediterranean. But they all glue "Jewish" onto themselves. Rightly or wrongly this creates a picture of a "Jewish Lobby Group."

Tutu should be more precise in his terminology, absolutely - I offer him no more leeway on being sloppy and wasteful with words than I offer you and your endless stream of "Nazinazinazinazi."

By the way, one of those groups - the American Jewish Committee - is on record as dismissing accusations of antisemitism against Tutu. Still, the accusation lives on at Arutz Sheva, Ynet, algemeiner, and the other Zionist groupthink outlets (My favorite is Horowitz's "frontpagemag," which calls Tutu the "Godfather of hell"- fucking funny stuff)

As I mentioned this is a portion of an ongoing and frankly pathetically obvious attempt to delegitimatize anyone who speaks up for Palestinians, to characterize them as not just hating Jews but also hating the Palestinians they "pretend" to care about, on and on and on. Absolutely every person who publicly advocates for Palestinian rights gets this treatment, unless, like Amos Oz, they advocate those rights with a gigantic asterisk that says "So long as Israel gets final say in what those rights may be"

Hasbarawood, I suppose is the term for that sort of thing, I suppose?

Then what was the source? It didn't just pop into your head, as it did with your fellow anti-zios. What's the source?

I could give you a life story, but it'd be extra tangential - just know that some people grow up in a kind of life where yes, violence is the answer. This is where I got the notion that violence is an acceptable method of politics.

You've lied so many times about my views that I must demand you back up your bullshit from now on. All you have is bullshit ad-hominem. Little else... Very little.

Shira, you and I have hashed shit over so very, very many times, and each time I refer back to one of your prior points, you squawk "BULLSHIT! AD HOMINEM!" Usually I just roll my eyes and carry on because frankly, digging through your bajillion posts, each hidden in a bajillion-post thread, to find exactly where and what you said is fucking time-consuming. it bogs me down and given you regularly attribute a completely unfounded desire to "murder all the Jews" to my supposedly Nazi ass, I frankly don't think you deserve that kind of time.

Further much of what I lob at you is not direct quotes but educated inference. You've obviously never said "I love me some ethnic cleansing!" because you seem to maintain a solid sense of how far is too far, even in I/P (though you have argued that it is justified). Rather...

1) You clearly have no questions or concerns about the foundation of Israel, or the fact that the 3/5 Jewish State was stamped well outside the boundaries of the Partition plan. I don't think we need links for this.
2) You mock and belittle the notion of the Nakba (here, here, and here
3) You assign sole blame to the Palestinian Arabs for both the civil war of 1947 and the Arab-Israeli war of 1948 (see here and here and here
4) You do not believe that most of the refugees are "really" refugees, since they fled, rather than being forcibly removed by the Israelis (here, citing Benny Morris and his refugees-in-quote-marks for this reason, for example)
5) You've also glossed over Israel's responsibility to these refugees in too many instances for me to link, though I did find this exchange where you pointedly ignore Israel's oxymoronic "Present Absenteeism" law that conferred vast amounts of Arab property to the state, which then distributed it exclusively to Jews.
6) You are adamant in your refusal of the Right of Return, to the point where you even refuse to use the three words "Right of return" and instead favor "RoR" - again another instance where I don't think fishing for links are necessary.

In shorthand, the Palestinian Arabs were ethnically cleansed from their homes in the years between 1947 and 1949, and again in 1967 (to a lesser extent). And you very clearly have no problem with this, except that the victims and their descendants keep bringing it up. THIS is why I say you support ethnic cleansing.

Now, sifting out all those links took me about 45 minutes (granted, I'm doing other things as well) so I hope you can understand that I'm not going to do it for everything I've ever said about you, Shira. Just please, rest assured, I base my view of you on stuff you have said, okay? it doesn't profit to just make wild shit up.

Once again, I call BULLSHIT. Prove it.

Well, everything you say immediately after this line is an anti-integrationist argument where you call me a nazi and argue that all Palestinians are terrorists...

Your nazi solution to I/P is to make Israel into another Egypt or Lebanon.

Uhm. You know, the Nazis actually had a defined solution. Really, it even comes in capital letters, Die Endlösung, or The Final Solution. And I think even you realize the Nazis weren't particularly picky when it came to non-Aryan groups. A Nazi solution to the I/P conflict would be exterminating pretty much te entire population of the region and establishing a white Aryan nation on the shores of the eastern Mediterranean. Really, don't say shit if you don't know what you're saying

If you don't stop calling me a Nazi, you're going to have a tough time, okay?

How are the copts doing in Egypt with the Islamists? How are christians doing in Lebanon with the Islamists?

They're certainly not being packed into cattle cars and gassed to death, if that's what you're trying to get at with your claims of them suffering a "nazi solution."

Since you are bringing this up to illustrate why you are opposed ot Jews and Arabs integrating, am I to understand that you believe that Egyot and Lebanon should be partitioned into religious or ethnic enclaves, as you and your "Good Zionist" Amos Oz argue must be done for Israel, Palestine, and Jerusalem? if we follow the model, should 75% of Egypt be given to the cops, with the Muslims that live in that territory expelled to Sudan and Libya?

And you think Jews will fare better with Hamas and Islamic Jihad? No, what you advocate is war, not peaceful co-existance.

Okay, so in your view, Palestinian and Hamas are exactly the same. Are you going to advocate doing to all Palestinians what is done to Hamas?

It's shit like this Shira, where every Jew is a Zionist, where every Palestinian is a terrorist, that leads me to say the things about you that I do. Equating all Palestinians with Hamas is undoubtedly bigoted, and yet, there you go, doing exactly that - immediately after squawking "bullshit!" when I called you a bigot.

What a ridiculous argument. You can't be serious.

That means once the Palestinians get their act together, put out better shit, do things like Israel or even better....then you'll stop claiming PalWatch is run by bigoted shitbags. Just the same, if Israel does a piss-poor job from here on in, your sources that bash them 24/7/365 become bigoted hate sites.

Same standard. They're either both bigoted or not. Stop with the bullshit double-standards. THAT's bigoted.

I mean really, when your sources conflate Jews with Zionists ALL THE FUCKING TIME and bash Israel and Zionists (Jews) 24/7/365, of course they're fucking bigoted shitbags! Get real!

"Once the Palestinians get their act together"? That's an interesting thing to say, Shira. Tell me, was the dearth of black faces in American television prior to the late 70's also due to blacks "not having their act together"? You do understand that a major feature of oppressing someone is preventing their perspective and narrative from getting exposure, right? Certainly you do.

As for PalWatch being run by bigoted shitbags... Itamar Marcus is a bigoted shitbag. If someone pals around with Geert Wilders, is a participant in that obnoxious little film "Obsession," and is such a biased asshole that Israeli courts refuse to hear testimony from him, and his career is made in part by taking fifty year-old Egyptian textbooks condemning Israel and claiming they are current Palestinian textbooks, in order to demonize Palestinians? Yes, he's a bigot.

Tell me, do you take a paycheck from PalWatch? you seem awfully defensive of the organization. I thought you were a volunteer hasbarist, but if you're taking pay for it, well, good for you, no sense in letting bad talent go to waste.

Dumbest.Argument.Ever.

Not really. CAMERA is not an unbiased source. Nor is Palwatch. Both claim to be. In fact Palwatch calls itself "A Self Portrait of Palestinian Society," even, despite the fact the "portrait" in question is being drawn by the aforementioned Itamar Marcus who - let us all be assured - isn't a Palestinian.

It's a fair and balanced portrait of Hamas and the PA......the Israelis peace partner.

Except it doesn't purport to be a portrait of Hamas. it doesn't purport to be a portrait of the Palestinian Authority. it claims to be a fair and balanced - self-representing, even! - portrait of Palestinian Media. But as we both note, PalWatch is incredibly selective about which media it "portraits."

This is sort of like if there were places that presented every Israeli media outlet via speeches from Meir Kahane and Im Tirtzu... while claiming this was the fair and unbiased totality of Israeli media and culture. Whatever your problems with anti-Zionist sources, I've never seen one that would make such a claim. I think even Shilat would be like "pffft, you cra-cray!" if presented with such an idea (...maybe not?).

But that is exactly the sort of thing these NGO's are doing with regard to Palestinian media. And you seem to support it unquestioningly, and take these fairly mild criticisms of mine as a horrible slander.

I don't care about least bit critical analysis. We're talking gi-normous propaganda spewed by Hamas and the PA and taken as gospel fact by Journalists. Like al-Dura, like the innocent "humanitarians" killed on the Mavi Marmara, the Jenin massacre, Free Gaza anti-racists, Hamas is actually moderate, inaccurate war stats on civilians killed. When Israel defends, they're always "deliberately" targeting innocents even though their stats on civilians is better than any other modern military. But Hamas says the IDF targets children and the media eats it up. Jews are child-killers, etc... Spikes in antisemitism globally as a result.

That's not the least bit critical. It's bullshit that skews perception significantly in the wrong direction.

Well, actually, as you just called me a Nazi for being for integration, and given the wild anger you are showing when I point out why I hold PalWatch and CAMERA in such low esteem, pardon me if I call bullshit that you "don't care" about critical analysis

And what of your ginormous propaganda...

- where IsraelZionistsJews (you really, honestly seem unable to tell the difference, so let's roll with that right here) can only ever be helpless victims to the global forces of evil descending upon them?
- where all Palestinians are represented by Hamas, and deserve the brutality they receive
- where civilian deaths are brushed off as human shields - it's their fault for being in the apartment building, it's the gunman's fault for using the building as a vantage point, it's not the pilot's fault for firing a few missiles into the apartment building to get the gunman (in fact you have argued that killing everyone in the apartment is a moral imperative, if you also happen to get the guy on the roof - remember our ethics thought experiment?)
- Where of course, we hear that "how much is a country expected to take!" in response to flying pipe bombs scorching empty parking lots, but not in regards to a nation being termited to death by expanding settlements, plagued by kidnappings and assassinations, and subject to prison conditions at all times?
- where 23 dead civilians is nothing worth comment if they're Arabs, but four dead civilians is a massacre if they're Jews (according to Avner Foxman, on the slaying of a family in the Adora settlement)
- where the IDF needs constant praise for not just conducting mass slaughter

So on and so forth. Please don't pretend you're the lone voice of truth or something. Or even a voice of truth, really.

Once and for all about Pallywood, here's your challenge:

You admitted the IDF didn't shoot or kill al-Dura. Fine, so who did and why?

Don't run away from the answer either, if you're so sure Pallywood doesn't exist...

I haven't run away from this question the other thirty times you've asked. You're like a goldfish, I swear. Mohammed and his father were very likely shot from Palestinian gunmen at the so-called "pita position."

Of course, again, we must understand the role of confusion on why people argue otherwise. Yes, of course there are people who will say "of course it was Israel!" and hear no argument otherwise, but let's dismiss them for the moment and look at why someone could be confused.

We see footage of a man and child hiding behind a concrete barrel in a firefight - dust is ploughing off the wall and the barrel where bullets are hitting. They end up getting hit. The man convulses a bit and goes still, the child goes limp, save for a brief and feeble arm movement. While yes, I know that death cannot be absolutely confirmed by the footage, it can be confirmed by the fact that we can speak with the man, but the boy - his son - is not around anymore (I don't suppose you think he's locked in a basement somewhere? You know what, don't answer that.)

The Israeli commander in the firefight initially claims that it was his unit that killed the two. We can see bullets hit the front of the barrel, from what would have been the Israeli position, so they probably WERE shooting at the pair - or as the Israelis would have seen it, a man making gestures behind cover to a position of gunmen the Israelis were in a firefight with. After the story gains traction and hits the news, the commander recants his claim. Whatever the reason for doing so, it does look smelly.

it takes another three years for a thorough investigation to reveal the most likely scenario. Three years that another narrative- of an Israeli unit gunning these two down and covering it up - to take hold. This isn't "pallywood," it's just the fact that the available information was out first, and was really only contested by parties - themselves hardly unbiased - going "NUH UH ISRAEL IS PERFECT AND DOES NOTHING WRONG EVER," hardly a winning strategy.

Wrong, and this is the same spew coming from Greenstein, David Duke, and every other anti-Jewish asshole.

Again with David Duke. Really, Shira, you need some variety!

FBI stats show acts vs. Jews at 71.9% of incidents vs. 8.4% for Muslims in the USA. Just an FYI, but Jews are about double the population as Muslims, not 8X bigger. You'll find hate crimes vs. Jews way out of proportion compared to US Blacks too...
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/victims.html

It's no better in the UK between Muslims and Jews...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21712826

Jews are being attacked way out of proportion to their numbers.

Actually Jews are about three to four times more numerous than Muslims in the US. Niggling point I suppose.

Your claim that "Jews are way out of proportion compared the US blacks, too" is bad reading, however. Re-read the numbers. Nearly three times as many blacks as Jews are targeted by hate crimes. The African-American population in the US is roughly double that of the Jewish population.

There's also the issue of reporting. Much as with rape statistics, hate crime numbers are "wobbly" because of the number of people who are victims, but don't report it for fear that no one will care. I have no idea what the stats on that might be for Jew or Muslim victims of hate crimes, but having grown up in a tensely mixed southern town, I can tell you that black people often go through a hell of a lot of shit that htye just keep to themselves - especially in places where the cops are perpetrators of this bigotry.

Tell me, who do you think is more likely to not only get shot for walking home, but condemned in the media for "lurking" and then at the trial of his killer, found guilty of his own murder? A black boy, or a Jewish boy? In fact, when's the last time the LAPD or NYPD has dunned down a Jewish guy? See a lot of Jews getting their faced beat in by the cops at traffic stops? Lot of SWAT teams knocking down the doors at the Weissman's and the Goldsteens' place? The prisons are disproportionately full of young Jewish men, who constantly receive the hardest sentencing and are uniformly tried as adults at younger ages than other ethnic groups?

Not all racism comes at the hands of thugs in suspenders. Sometimes it comes from thugs in badges.

C'mon, Shira.

My point is that there are groups that want to portray anti-Jewish bias as some special plague elevated far above the others. And even on the bases of four tenths of a percentage point (even when the real numbers behind the percentages blow the notion away) you continue this train of thought. I'm not saying there aren't victims of anti-jewish hate crime, or that it's not horrible when it happens. Just that it's not as if Jews are the most-targeted, most-oppressed, eternally-living-in-fear eternal victims of dirty goy hate that you insist they are.

You seem oblivious to the fact that all this comes from state-run media. These are the governments speaking. They're doing nothing to counter this hate speech. In fact, what you see aren't some one-offs. They're what those governments actually espouse. Governments aren't people, so these aren't attacks on all people. That's just in your mind.

And again, it is portrayed as a portrait of PALESTINIANS. Not the government. Do you understand the difference? Is Bush reflective of Americans? he's not even reflective of all Republicans, should we use his example to judge everyone between Bangor and San Diego?

Greenstein's, Mondoweiss, the ISM, BDS, etc... do the same thing, and yet you're okay with that. Power disparity nonsense withstanding, bigotry is bigotry and you're all for it when it's your side being the shitbags.

I would suggest that you spend some time examining the primary sources. Greenstein for instance, rails against Israeli government and policy - and unlike palWatch, he makes it clear that he's railing against government and policy.

"Power disparity nonsense?" Do you not believe in this concept generally or do you just disbelieve in it when it's applied to the relationship between Palestinians and Israelis?

You're laughing at dehumanization. It's not funny.

Humans are apes, Shira. It's not dehumanizing to call a human what a human is. calling a human an ape is like calling a human a mammal, the appropriate response is "yeah, and?" Pick up Darwin, it'll be enlightening

[shira]

68. longest.reply.ever..........

Someone who hates Jews, who wants Jews dead, is an antisemite.

There must be a difference b/w anti-Semites who don’t like Jews and those who hate them so much they want them dead. There are racists out there who fear or do not like Blacks, Arabs, Gypsies, etc… but do all go so far as to want them dead? I guess what I’m asking is, how do we distinguish between bigots and the OTHER bigots who either want people dead or could care less whether the “other” is mass murdered? Do all racists vs. Muslims or Blacks want them dead? I mean come on. But what I’ve noticed from anti-zios is that they’re 100% indifferent to racist genocidal Islamist incitement (and acts based on such incitement) vs. Jews. I’m not talking the garden variety xenophobe here.

Second, I've gotten the impression from you that you think anything less than full-throated support for all things done by Israel, constitutes "tacitly" wanting to kill all the Jews.

That’s ridiculous. Israel’s rightwingers and settlers don’t fully support everything the GOI does. Neither does PeaceNow. No one would say that the rightwingers of Israel want Jews dead. No one except Kahanists would say PeaceNow wants Jews dead.

[div]I was simply pointing out that Israel is far from the only nation on earth to get this accusation launched against it. "Nazi" is an easy, thoughtless insult. And yes, with Israel it becomes especially low-hanging fruit, for the "shock factor" value of it.

But anti-zios who equate Israel to the Nazis rarely if ever equate other nations to the Nazis. Israel is Nazi 24/7, others not so much. It’s a double-standard they use almost exclusively vs. the Jewish state, due to their animosity vs. Jews who were the victims of the Nazis.

[div class=”excerpt”]And yes, Tutu has used "Jewish Lobby" and "Israel Lobby" interchangeably... and that's where I've found him doing that.

Tutu has gone much further than that. I listed quite a few things and offered to give you any 1-2 references if you don’t believe the accusations are accurate.

[div class=”excerpt”]As I mentioned this is a portion of an ongoing and frankly pathetically obvious attempt to delegitimatize anyone who speaks up for Palestinians, to characterize them as not just hating Jews but also hating the Palestinians they "pretend" to care about, on and on and on. Absolutely every person who publicly advocates for Palestinian rights gets this treatment

When we combine Tutu’s other statements about Jews with the fact that he never speaks up for Palestinians who are abused in the W.Bank, Gaza, Lebanon, or Syria…..then it’s difficult understanding HOW such a person can be perceived to be “pro” Palestinian. Since he’s not pro-Palestinian and cannot be bothered with all the other shit happening to Palestinians elsewhere, then what is he if not anti-Israel and anti-Jewish (based on his many slips of the mask)?

[div class=”excerpt”]Further much of what I lob at you is not direct quotes but educated inference.

Your educated inference is as flimsy as mine WRT the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. I can say you believe the Jews behind that uprising were war criminals for killing innocent SS back then. My inference would be just as ridiculous as yours.

[div class=”excerpt”]1) You clearly have no questions or concerns about the foundation of Israel, or the fact that the 3/5 Jewish State was stamped well outside the boundaries of the Partition plan. I don't think we need links for this.

Right. Had the Palestinians agreed, the Partition Plan would have been reality. They chose war and lost.

[div class=”excerpt”]2) You mock and belittle the notion of the Nakba (here, here, and here

The Nakba happened as a result of a failed effort to annihilate the Jews of Israel. It’s difficult to feel bad about an enemy’s attempt to utterly destroy your fellow people. The innocents, certainly….but overall, nope.

[div class=”excerpt”]3) You assign sole blame to the Palestinian Arabs for both the civil war of 1947 and the Arab-Israeli war of 1948 (see here and here and here)

Definitely. Had they agreed to Partition, the Arabs would have gotten > 80% of historic Palestine and the Jews < 20%. They chose poorly by declaring war.

[div class=”excerpt”]4) You do not believe that most of the refugees are "really" refugees, since they fled, rather than being forcibly removed by the Israelis (here, citing Benny Morris and his refugees-in-quote-marks for this reason, for example)

The original refugees are definitely refugees. Their descendants are not. I agree with Morris in that the Jews had only 2 choices back then. Be killed or do an ethnic cleansing. Pretty easy decision b/w 2 shitty choices IMO.

[div class=”excerpt”]5) You've also glossed over Israel's responsibility to these refugees in too many instances for me to link, though I did find this exchange where you pointedly ignore Israel's oxymoronic "Present Absenteeism" law that conferred vast amounts of Arab property to the state, which then distributed it exclusively to Jews.

Israel has no responsibility towards refugee descendants. What’s difficult about this? I think the “Present Absenteeism” law sounds like bullshit from initial impressions, so I agree with you.

[div class=”excerpt”]6) You are adamant in your refusal of the Right of Return, to the point where you even refuse to use the three words "Right of return" and instead favor "RoR" - again another instance where I don't think fishing for links are necessary.

I’ve already explained myself WRT right-of-return. I have no problem writing it out but I prefer shorthand. Why do you think Israel should take in descendants of refugees when no other nation has ever done so or been required to do so? I’d like to know.

[div class=”excerpt”]In shorthand, the Palestinian Arabs were ethnically cleansed from their homes in the years between 1947 and 1949, and again in 1967 (to a lesser extent). And you very clearly have no problem with this, except that the victims and their descendants keep bringing it up. THIS is why I say you support ethnic cleansing.

Well, you’re wrong. I have no problem with Israel taking in the original refugees. Even in the early years after ’48, they agreed to take in 200,000 for peace. I wouldn’t have disagreed if I had a say back then.

[div class=”excerpt”]Now, sifting out all those links took me about 45 minutes (granted, I'm doing other things as well) so I hope you can understand that I'm not going to do it for everything I've ever said about you, Shira. Just please, rest assured, I base my view of you on stuff you have said, okay? it doesn't profit to just make wild shit up.

Your accusations have changed. At least you’re making more reasonable assumptions. Still wrong, but closer to what I actually believe. Next time, simply ask.

[div class=”excerpt”]If you don't stop calling me a Nazi, you're going to have a tough time, okay?

I wasn’t calling you a Nazi. You had just compared your Nazi solution to my Nazi solution. That’s what I was referring to. So you assumed wrongly once again.

[div class=”excerpt”]They're certainly not being packed into cattle cars and gassed to death, if that's what you're trying to get at with your claims of them suffering a "nazi solution."

No, they’re not. But what they’re going through is something no reasonable Israeli Jew would risk his/her life for. As much as Christians are hated by the Islamists in Egypt and Lebanon, Jews are hated even more. Why the hell would Jews risk their western way of life for that? You expect them to become suicidal to make anti-zios like yourself stop accusing them of racism? Tell me, what are you and your fellow 1-state anti-zios doing to ensure that the Islamists of the region play nice, pretending to abide by western, liberal standards? Wouldn’t it make sense to advocate 1-state once the Islamists in charge play by western liberal democratic rules? You’d have a better case to make at that point, right? So how’s about we wait until you guys help make that a reality? See you in 5-6 decades, at least. Until then…

[div class=”excerpt”]Okay, so in your view, Palestinian and Hamas are exactly the same. Are you going to advocate doing to all Palestinians what is done to Hamas?

Islamists are the same. That doesn’t mean Hamas = MB = Hezbollah = Islamic Jihad = Al Aqsa Martyrs. It just means that on a scale of 1-10 (with 1 being very liberal and 10 being ultra-conservative, rightwing, illiberal) Islamists are a 17. The only peace they’ll make with Jews is sending Jews to rest in peace. Short of that, 2nd or 3rd class citizens living in constant fear. This isn’t rocket science.

[div class=”excerpt”]It's shit like this Shira, where every Jew is a Zionist, where every Palestinian is a terrorist, that leads me to say the things about you that I do. Equating all Palestinians with Hamas is undoubtedly bigoted, and yet, there you go, doing exactly that - immediately after squawking "bullshit!" when I called you a bigot.

I don’t call every Palestinian a terrorist. I have great respect for genuinely moderate Palestinians like Ray Hanania, Mudar Zahran, and Elias Issa. If they were leading the PA, there’d already be peace and a Palestinian state would be well on its way to being a successful state.

What I find is that you guys never make distinctions between moderate and extreme Palestinians. You see them all as one and never, ever speak out against the extremists who make life miserable for the moderates. So really, who’s the racist here pigeon-holing all Palestinians together as if they’re one?

[div class=”excerpt”]"Once the Palestinians get their act together"? That's an interesting thing to say, Shira. Tell me, was the dearth of black faces in American television prior to the late 70's also due to blacks "not having their act together"? You do understand that a major feature of oppressing someone is preventing their perspective and narrative from getting exposure, right? Certainly you do.

Your moral compass is so FUBAR that you don’t even see extreme Palestinian radicals oppressing Palestinians. You don’t recognize such oppression. Once there are real moderates in charge, the Palestinians will gain significantly more support worldwide. Hell, their FIRST best friends at that time will be Israelis. Think back to Sadat. Israelis fell in love with him for finally coming to his senses. Golda Meir asked what took him so long. You really have no clue as to who is oppressing whom.

[div class=”excerpt”]As for PalWatch being run by bigoted shitbags... Itamar Marcus is a bigoted shitbag. If someone pals around with Geert Wilders, is a participant in that obnoxious little film "Obsession," and is such a biased asshole that Israeli courts refuse to hear testimony from him, and his career is made in part by taking fifty year-old Egyptian textbooks condemning Israel and claiming they are current Palestinian textbooks, in order to demonize Palestinians? Yes, he's a bigot.

This guilt-by-association of yours (which I thought you opposed) condemns Tutu and Greenstein as well. They run around & participate in causes with people who make Geert Wilders look good (and that’s REALLY saying something). You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Oh right….you’ll tell me that if Tutu and Greenstein are running around with shitbag bigots that’s okay, because it’s for a good cause. Please.

[div class=”excerpt”]Tell me, do you take a paycheck from PalWatch? you seem awfully defensive of the organization. I thought you were a volunteer hasbarist, but if you're taking pay for it, well, good for you, no sense in letting bad talent go to waste.

The next dime I make will be my first for the cause of Hasbara. I can’t believe you asked me that.

[div class=”excerpt”]Except it doesn't purport to be a portrait of Hamas. it doesn't purport to be a portrait of the Palestinian Authority. it claims to be a fair and balanced - self-representing, even! - portrait of Palestinian Media. But as we both note, PalWatch is incredibly selective about which media it "portraits."

Go to Palwatch and you’ll see in probably every single video, sermon, or public announcement that they attribute the following to state-sponsored Hamas or the PA. They aren’t quoting selectively from any whack-a-doodle. I mean, do you believe you can find even ONE thing on PalWatch that Hamas or the PA would condemn? Let’s call this a challenge. Find something there Hamas or the PA would distance themselves from. Knock yourself out!

[div class=”excerpt”]This is sort of like if there were places that presented every Israeli media outlet via speeches from Meir Kahane and Im Tirtzu... while claiming this was the fair and unbiased totality of Israeli media and culture. Whatever your problems with anti-Zionist sources, I've never seen one that would make such a claim.

Well duh….Kahane and Im Tirzu don’t speak for the GOI. You’ll find everything on PalWatch coming from state-controlled Palestinian media and government institutions. Do you truly not understand the difference between an open, liberal democracy and a closed totalitarian one? Do we have to go there?

[div class=”excerpt”]And what of your ginormous propaganda...

- where IsraelZionistsJews (you really, honestly seem unable to tell the difference, so let's roll with that right here) can only ever be helpless victims to the global forces of evil descending upon them?
- where all Palestinians are represented by Hamas, and deserve the brutality they receive
- where civilian deaths are brushed off as human shields - it's their fault for being in the apartment building, it's the gunman's fault for using the building as a vantage point, it's not the pilot's fault for firing a few missiles into the apartment building to get the gunman (in fact you have argued that killing everyone in the apartment is a moral imperative, if you also happen to get the guy on the roof - remember our ethics thought experiment?)
- Where of course, we hear that "how much is a country expected to take!" in response to flying pipe bombs scorching empty parking lots, but not in regards to a nation being termited to death by expanding settlements, plagued by kidnappings and assassinations, and subject to prison conditions at all times?
- where 23 dead civilians is nothing worth comment if they're Arabs, but four dead civilians is a massacre if they're Jews (according to Avner Foxman, on the slaying of a family in the Adora settlement)
- where the IDF needs constant praise for not just conducting mass slaughter

It is ginormous propaganda. The media runs with Hamas propaganda, accusing Israel of deliberately targeting civilians. You’ll note that no other western nation is considered to be anywhere near as bad as Israel in times of war, DESPITE Israel proving itself to be more careful with civilian lives than any other western nation. There are no Goldstone investigations for any other western nations.

Those examples I rattled off are examples of bullshit accusations vs. the Jewish state. From al-Dura to Jenin, from Lebanese to Gazan civilian casualties, and from humanitarians in Free Gaza on the Marmara being killed to humanitarian anti-zios who couldn’t care less about Palestinians unless Jews can be blamed for their situation.

Forget the media, when it comes to the world you and I can’t even agree there’s a problem with the UN in its singular focus on Israel. Compare their activity on Syria vs. that against Israel the past 2 years and there’s no contest. The UN passes more resolutions and has more emergency meetings on Israel than the most hideous of regimes all combined. Meanwhile Israel is excluded from bodies like the UN Human Rights Commission while other nations like Mauritania (where mass slavery still exists) has an official who is VP on the council right now.

You wish to pretend this ridiculously biased and unfair portrayal of Israel is due to "LOVE" for Palestinians? That it has NOTHING to do with Jews? You've gotta be shitting me....

[div class=”excerpt”]I haven't run away from this question the other thirty times you've asked. You're like a goldfish, I swear. Mohammed and his father were very likely shot from Palestinian gunmen at the so-called "pita position."

But why would Palestinians shoot at al-Dura from a position straight ahead (trajectory of bullets show shots coming from in front of them, not at an angle). Why would they shoot at al-Dura and not IDF troops who were at a 90 degree angle in relation to the al-Duras? Why would Palestinians seek to kill the al-Duras? How could the camera man accuse Israel? It was his say-so.

[div class=”excerpt”]Actually Jews are about three to four times more numerous than Muslims in the US. Niggling point I suppose.

Estimates are anywhere from 2-7 million Muslims in the US.
http://www.cfr.org/united-states/muslims-united-states/p25927

Considering there are around 5.5M Jews, they’re double the Muslim population but targeted 8X as much.

There are also 44M African Americans compared to 5.5M Jews. So if all things were even, we’d expect 8X as much hate vs. Blacks than Jews, not 3X.
http://blackdemographics.com

All you have are excuses.

[div class=”excerpt”]And again, it is portrayed as a portrait of PALESTINIANS. Not the government. Do you understand the difference? Is Bush reflective of Americans? he's not even reflective of all Republicans, should we use his example to judge everyone between Bangor and San Diego?

You’ve never explored PalWatch. Again, they’re always clear that their videos are coming from government sponsored institutions.

[div class=”excerpt”]I would suggest that you spend some time examining the primary sources. Greenstein for instance, rails against Israeli government and policy - and unlike palWatch, he makes it clear that he's railing against government and policy.

He makes constant Nazi comparisons. He doesn’t do this WRT any other nations, does he? Just the Jewish one. Constant Jewish collaboration during the Holocaust with Nazis... He's obsessed with the Nazi angle. Find where he uses Nazi comparisons with other nations more deserving of the designation.

[div class=”excerpt”]"Power disparity nonsense?" Do you not believe in this concept generally or do you just disbelieve in it when it's applied to the relationship between Palestinians and Israelis?

You’re pretending Israel's Jews aren’t or cannot be a targeted ethnic/religious group worth protecting due to their “enormous” influence, power, and "oppresor status". When did the Jewish state suddenly become the white oppressor? Couldn’t have been during Holocaust times when they were treated like shit by white oppressors everywhere. So when?

Obviously they're not white oppressors when their state is the only one kept off important UN groups today in 2013. If Jews were oppressors we wouldn't see such disparate hate crime percentages against them vs. other minorities in western nations. Where's all that influence and power when it comes to the UN or in western nations where they're targeted more than other minorities?

Your barometer is backwards. It's upside-down bizarro world with you...

[div class=”excerpt”]Humans are apes, Shira. It's not dehumanizing to call a human what a human is. calling a human an ape is like calling a human a mammal, the appropriate response is "yeah, and?" Pick up Darwin, it'll be enlightening

So you’re telling me it would be equally hilarious if others were to call Blacks or Muslims apes and pigs?

[oberliner]

69. This is a fascinating exchange

Well worth the price of admission.

[Israeli]

70. agreed....absolutely fascinating .

I've learned more on this forum , about what goes on inside the heads of American Zionists and their opposing opposites, than I have in my lifetime .

Well worth the price of admission.

[delrem]

71. This was the best exchange I've ever witnessed on I/P.

[oberliner]

72. Is that why you joined this website?

To learn what goes on inside the heads of American Zionists?

Curious to know what would inspire an Israeli to spend time on a discussion forum geared primarily towards American politics.

[Israeli]

73. no oberliner...

I have already stated why I joined this forum ....go do a search on my posts .
hint :
It had everything to do with pelsar claiming that Uri Avnery and others are liberal Zionists ....when in fact they are post Zionists .

You have a problem with having an Israeli on board a forum that is all about I/P ?
Then why are you okay with pelsar ?
Is it because he is also an American Zionist ?

This is a great place to learn ....and nothing you or shira or any other American Zionist on here has convinced me that we post-zionists are on the wrong track .

[oberliner]

74. Why would you think I have a problem?

I was just asking what brought you here.

[shira]

75. Hey Israeli, it seem to me you post-zionists are on a similar track....

...to Zionists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we differ only slightly.

We're both for 2 states. Your vision of a future Israel is different than mine but even though I disagree, that doesn't bother me. I don't have a problem with post-zionists working democratically to get enough Israelis convinced that post-zionism is the right way to go. If you all win and get your way, more power to you.

Regarding 2 states, we just disagree as to how that will happen. I think you believe Israel needs the right people in government (leftwing post-zionists, etc.) and they will see to it that peace happens. They will make all the correct moves and the Palestinians will be more than happy to agree to a 2-state solution. Whereas I think peace only happens once the Palestinians show they're ready to accept Israel as is, and when they as well as the rest of the mideast become modern, western liberal nations. I don't think real peace happens otherwise. It seems you're not so much for peace as you are separation and 2 states. You just want the occupation to end and hopefully everyone gets on with their lives. You probably believe that people like me really aren't for 2 states because the Arabs will never meet my high expectations first. I disagree with your view because I don't believe that if Israel left the territories tomorrow (even every last sq. inch) that peace would break out. I would guarantee more war happening as a result, tens of thousands of lives lost, and Israel would have to re-occupy. So I ask what's the point of leaving if that happens. Regardless, we're both for 2 states.

[shira]

16. MLK was a liberal zionist. So were Truman and Kennedy. n/t

[oberliner]

17. OK

That's very reasonable.

I don't claim to be unbiased or level-headed. I definitely have my own biases, as I think everyone does, and I certainly can get snippy and be something very much other than level-headed. I do try to be as polite as possible most of the time.

In the context of this particular thread, I am totally unsurprised by the remarks made by Daniel Seamen - and I find it really foolish that he was even put in such a position.

I don't want to move too far afield from the OP, but I'd be happy to have a more general wide-ranging conversation about the board and our posting habits via PM if you'd like. Please feel free to send me a message and I will do my best to respond in a timely fashion.

[pelsar]

13. that would be me...

given that i dont have a "knee-jerk" reaction to what is acceptable and what isn't... I have no problem with disagreeing with what "liberals" are supposed to agree to.

i did the research and came to the same conclusion that Truman did ( A Truman Democrat?)....its was the best of the bad options, given what was known at the time, and what is known today.

I also don't subscribe to the concept that a particular group has to agree 100% with everyone to be defined as part of that group...i like the concept of tolerance...

[King_David]

4. Your headline does not match the headline in the origional article nt

[oberliner]

5. I don't think that's a rule anymore

Might be a holdover from the old days.