Skinner just made me host of this group

[Lithos]

I added Mina (UGRR) back as the second host.

I will open up a thread later tonight for meta discussion issues. For now just assume the old rules are in effect.

[Mosby]

1. Good news!

Glad to have you back.

[oberliner]

2. And there was much rejoicing

Hooray!

[bemildred]

3. +1. nt

[azurnoir]

4. surprise well not really but good news

that said can we open up what sources can be used? I would wish to see both Electric Intifada and maybe DEBKA allowed really however the no pictures rule is good IMO or else we could be seeing photos of bloodied children from both sides every other post

[Ruby the Liberal]

6. DEBKA?

I thought that site was debunked by both the right AND the left as a glorified trial balloon experiment like 10 years ago?

Ironically, though it leans right, most right wing sites I visit for I/P discussions have banned it for being unreliable (at best).

[azurnoir]

8. It was the most RW thing I could think of off hand that wasn't an out right hate site or blog

Arutz Sheva is already allowed

[Scurrilous]

10. From DU3's TOS:

"Democratic Underground is an online community for politically liberal people who understand the importance of working within the system to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of political office. Teabaggers, Neo-cons, Dittoheads, Paulites, Freepers, Birthers, and right-wingers in general are not welcome here."

If right-wingers and neo-cons aren't allowed here, neither should their blogs, websites, etc. IMO.

[azurnoir]

11. But to one degree or another they already are allowed

and just because you post something from one does not necessarily mean you support that view, some things can be posted are from a "can you believe this sh*t" point of view it all depends on the poster

[Ruby the Liberal]

12. Now thats what I call low hanging fruit.

[azurnoir]

13. Arutz Sheva? I'd agree but it's been used as a source as recently

as last week so there ya have it

eta my point is that I'd rather see our sources more open even if one doesn't agree with that particular source

[Ruby the Liberal]

14. No was referring to choosing DEBKA as an example.

I don't have a problem with A7 (or ynet.co.il - but not sure how often it is posted here).

As with most stuff, you have to read it with potential bias in mind.

[azurnoir]

17. ah I was wondering just what you meant

it was my choice of rightwing sites to use as an example can you think of a 'better' rightwing source?

[Ruby the Liberal]

19. Sorry, I think this is all getting lost in translation

I meant that DEBKA is about as synonymous with far right-wing source as exists - in that I think they make WND look sane.

As mentioned, if most RW sites block it from their I/P discussions, thats telling.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. You don't have a problem with a source that regularly expressed hatred and bigotry?

Because that's what Arutz Sheva does. It's an extreme RW site that supports a Greater Israel and is the mouthpiece of the settler movement.

[Ruby the Liberal]

22. No, because I am not easily inflamed and have thicker skin than most

Having spent a host of time in the Middle East over the last 15 years, I know what the reality on the ground is and how people are conducting their lives and businesses on a daily basis. Maybe it is just an issue of exposure, but I can read that stuff and know how to extrapolate the histrionics from reality.

Why I hone in on sources like DEBKA that don't express a slant on reality - they express no reality at all.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Then I take it you wouldn't have a problem with any bigoted source regardless of what side it's on..

I'm not sure what form of reality anyone can attain from hatefilled and bigoted crap like Arutz Sheva, for example, nor why anyone would go looking for facts there as opposed to using a source that's not full of hate.

Y'know what? If you don't have a problem with Arutz Sheva being used here, I don't have a problem with DEBKA or anything else being used. Let's just make it open season...

[Ruby the Liberal]

27. I approach things differently than you do.

I like hearing people's opinions (especially those directly involved with a given issue). That doesn't mean I agree with them, but I will listen. It isn't so much what people say (the words they use), but the underlying concern that led them to say it that intrigues me.

Surely you are aware that one thing is said in the Hebrew/Arabic/Persian media and another (at times polar opposite) is simultaneously reported to the English speaking world, nu? It is time consuming, but when a huge news item hits, read it on CNNI/AJE and then go find a translation for the native sources you aren't fluent in. It is quite amusing, IMO. Before I saw that perspective, I used to get juiced (and angry as hell) about what I would see printed here or there about the I/P conflict. Thats the beauty I found in having been introduced to the internet in the mid 1990s. Slim pickings at first, but not being totally limited to source took a lot of wind out of the vitriol in my sails. Today the information comes at you from all directions and faster than anyone could absorb it all.

This, BTW, is why I so rarely engaged you (and others) on DU2 as that heated fighting black against white (grey unwelcome) approach just isn't my cup of tea. You have no idea how many times I started to comment on this or that, but just closed the thread and moved on.

If you want DEBKA here, then by all means, go for it. There is plenty here to capture my interest and attention than to bother with them, so propose whatever you think is best!

I do not mean this sarcastically in any frame or fashion BTW.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Obviously. I don't make excuses for bigoted sources only on one 'side'...

I'm sorry if believing that bigoted sources shouldn't be allowed regardless of what 'side' they come from is a reason why you wouldn't engage people at DU2. There's nothing grey at all in making excuses for why an extremely bigoted RW source is acceptable while others aren't. I consider such a stance to be very inconsistent...

[Ruby the Liberal]

30. I have to ask

did you even read my post, Violet?

Not a thing in there about bigoted sources, nothing about 'sides', but direct comments about heated black and white vitrolic arguments. How you got that I didn't engage often because I wanted bigoted sources posted (and they weren't) is completely beyond my comprehension.

Perhaps reading what people are actually saying rather than extrapolating into their comments what you prefer to believe them to be saying might go a long way in toning down the divisiveness and be more conducive to discussion?

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Sure did. This whole discussion was about bigoted sources...

Not sure why you want to take it off in some other direction, especially if it comes to divisiveness and black and white versus grey. See since you brought DU2 into it, I went asearchin' coz I couldn't remember any of yr rare appearances, and came up with something that probably explains a fair bit...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=358421#358424

Nope, no black and white there!

[Ruby the Liberal]

32. Help me understand then.

I wrote (back in July), in response to official Charters on the recognition of Israel:

Hamas' Charter has not (chosen to recognize Israel), and they are the elected governing/responsible authority.

PLO (Charter) is meaningless right now as is Islamic Jihad.

(Italicized portions added for clarity)

How is this divisive and vitrolic? It is a fact about the governing authority of the Palestinian people. They are the governing body and their Charter doesn't recognize Israel.

And why are you coming after me with flame throwers? What exactly are you looking to achieve here with all of this animosity?

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Hamas is NOT part of the PA, which is the governing body

Which is what I responded to you with back then:

'Hamas aren't the PA...

What their charter says doesn't trump the official recognition of Israel by the PLO, which is a formal document. I notice you ignored what I pointed out about the Likud Platform. Why? Doesn't that bother you?

btw, since when has the PLO been meaningless? While the PA administers the occupied territories, it's the PLO that's the international representative of the Palestinian people...'..

That exchange was imo a clear example of black and white thinking and most definiately didn't involve facts at all.

I'm not coming after you with anything, and there's no animosity on my part, though I did think that comment you made about me and DU2 was a bit on the nasty side.

[Ruby the Liberal]

34. Scroll up.

I didn't say YOU, I said you (and others).

If you would like to reopen a July discussion about language in Charters and who is the current elected body of the Palestinian people (not who the US or anyone else recognizes - the party that the people elected), then feel free to do so. I stated what I have to say on it given the current governance structure and really don't care to argue with you about it any more today than I did back in July.

As far as animosity, you do come across rather hostile in your approach. I don't have a problem with that - but I don't plan to spend a lot of time arguing with you for the sake of arguing. Like I said - thats not my style of conversation, but if it serves you well, I wish you only the best - and I say that sincerely so please don't read snark into it as it is a genuine feeling.

[shira]

7. Totally agree with Azurnoir. I'd like to see all kinds of sources....

...makes for better discussions IMO.

Also allow blog posts for OPs.

And congrats, Lithos.

[bemildred]

9. +1. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

16. I really don't want to have to wade through a group full of bigoted sources...

I'm not familiar with DEBKA, but EI doesn't fall into the bigoted source category, but a partisan advocacy site that is going to do what other advocacy sites do and omit what doesn't make their 'side' look good. But when it comes to bigoted sources like Arutz Sheva, no they shouldn't be allowed. The final weeks of DU2 with the marathon of new threads started from Arutz Sheva was imo nothing but spamming, and stuff like that and PRESSTV for example shouldn't be allowed, not if there's any chance of having constructive discussion here...

[azurnoir]

18. well as you can see above not everyone thinks of Arutz Sheva as bigoted

as to PRESSTV I do think that one is rather unreliable, but as I said I would like to see the horizons if you will expanded for both sides

[Violet_Crumble]

21. And I'm sure there's folk who believe David Duke isn't bigoted...

..and would have no problems with his site being used as a source. The reality is that both sources are incredibly bigoted. I'm all for horizon expansion, just not to the point where it's going to clog this group up with bigoted crap...

[Ruby the Liberal]

23. There is a difference between PRESSTV and A7

PRESSTV is to Iran what Pravda is to Russia - state run media.

A7 is private and represents the view of one segment of Israeli society. Yeah, they may cheer things like Yisrael Beiteinu in a unity government, but a chunk of non-political Russians do as well - not for their RW politics, but because that is a Russian party for all intents and purposes.

Israel is a very unique country whose political structure holds much intrigue for me. Bedfellows are made and split constantly. Why it is of intrigue to me to know what all of them are saying.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. A totally irrelevant one, might I add...

The discussion was about the use of bigoted sources, not whether they're publicly or privately run. It doesn't matter who runs them, what matters is whether bigoted and extremist RW views should be used to start OPs here. As someone who's participated in this forum for a fair while, I don't want to see them used, and I don't give a shit whether they're siding with Israel or the Palestinians...

[Ruby the Liberal]

5. Yay!

Congrats.

Happy to help if needed.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. That works for me...

I'm happy to see you and UGRR as hosts of this group. And I've been operating as though the old rules were still in effect, so I'm not going to have any problems in that regard...

[aletier_v]

26. My condolences, I shall pray for you

[BootinUp]

29. good idea.