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Tue Oct 23, 2012, 06:25 PM

58% of Jewish Israelis endorse use of the word "apartheid"

from an interesting article on 972:-

There was an interesting part in the survey about the use of the term apartheid. While some people who responded didn’t know it so well, only 31 percent objected to Israel being called an apartheid state (58 supported the use of the term), and 50 percent said apartheid is practiced in a few or in many fields. If the use of the term apartheid is anti-Semitic, as some of Israel’s PR agencies claim – then most Israelis are guilty of anti-Semitism.




Far right-wing activists and local residents protest against what they claim to be a growing trend of Arab men courting Jewish women in the city of Bat Yam, near Tel Aviv, December 20, 2010. The Hebrew on the signs reads: “Jewish girls belong to the Jewish People.” (photo: Oren Ziv/ Activestills.org)


http://972mag.com/poll-israelis-support-discrimination-against-arabs-embrace-the-term-apartheid/58258/

44 replies, 3273 views

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Reply 58% of Jewish Israelis endorse use of the word "apartheid" (Original post)
shaayecanaan Oct 2012 OP
libodem Oct 2012 #1
azurnoir Oct 2012 #2
shaayecanaan Oct 2012 #9
azurnoir Oct 2012 #19
TomClash Oct 2012 #21
bemildred Oct 2012 #3
oberliner Oct 2012 #4
King_David Oct 2012 #5
azurnoir Oct 2012 #6
oberliner Oct 2012 #7
azurnoir Oct 2012 #8
oberliner Oct 2012 #10
azurnoir Oct 2012 #18
oberliner Oct 2012 #25
azurnoir Oct 2012 #26
oberliner Oct 2012 #29
azurnoir Oct 2012 #30
King_David Oct 2012 #14
azurnoir Oct 2012 #17
shira Oct 2012 #23
shira Oct 2012 #24
shaayecanaan Oct 2012 #35
shira Oct 2012 #36
azurnoir Oct 2012 #37
shaayecanaan Oct 2012 #38
shira Oct 2012 #11
azurnoir Oct 2012 #12
shira Oct 2012 #13
azurnoir Oct 2012 #16
shira Oct 2012 #22
azurnoir Oct 2012 #27
shaayecanaan Oct 2012 #32
shira Oct 2012 #34
King_David Oct 2012 #15
shira Oct 2012 #20
azurnoir Oct 2012 #28
King_David Oct 2012 #31
shira Oct 2012 #33
dontknowmuchbout Oct 2012 #39
King_David Oct 2012 #42
shira Oct 2012 #40
shira Oct 2012 #41
King_David Oct 2012 #43
shaayecanaan Oct 2012 #44

Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Tue Oct 23, 2012, 06:30 PM

1. No wonder

That's exactly what it is. And they make the lesser human beings live in a ghetto. They should be so proud.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Tue Oct 23, 2012, 06:42 PM

2. actually from the way the article puts it seems all most like heck ya

we practice apartheid and we're proud of it too, something which is truly disheartening

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #2)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 06:53 PM

9. That was the impression that I had...

there seems something of a disconnect between Israel's PR and its population.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #9)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 12:54 AM

19. could be

seems like a massive massive clean up effort down thread

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #19)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 05:35 AM

21. It's only just beginning

Soon a new study will be commissioned to whitewash the truth. Just watch.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Tue Oct 23, 2012, 06:59 PM

3. Well, I guess it's OK to say that after all.

I do sympathize with Ms Fuchs for the shitstorm she has most likely just walked into.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Tue Oct 23, 2012, 07:11 PM

4. Where's the poll?

Is there anything that links to the actual poll rather than the Gideon Levy article?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #4)

Tue Oct 23, 2012, 07:19 PM

5. You are right to ask for it,

Facts and Statistics have been manufactured before.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #4)

Tue Oct 23, 2012, 10:47 PM

6. well the article says that the poll was published in Haaretz

Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel

Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank.

A majority also explicitly favors discrimination against the state's Arab citizens, a survey shows.

The survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews. The survey was commissioned by the Yisraela Goldblum Fund and is based on a sample of 503 interviewees.

The questions were written by a group of academia-based peace and civil rights activists. Dialog is headed by Tel Aviv University Prof. Camil Fuchs.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-would-support-apartheid-regime-in-israel.premium-1.471644#

one could I suppose quibble that 500 people is an extremely small sample but it is speaking on the basis of percentage of population or voters in the case of the US much larger than the polls we regularly see posted upstairs concerning the current elections here

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #6)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 07:12 AM

7. No it doesn't and it wasn't

But it's all good, I found the poll.

Richard Silverstein posted a link to it on his blog.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/

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Response to oberliner (Reply #7)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 03:07 PM

8. yes it was in Haaretz Silversteins article had a word doc. about the poll

http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.471827.1350989040!/image/1004082658.jpg

but thanks for the link to Silverstein's blog which if memory serves you and other have ridiculed and attempted to delegitimize

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #8)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 07:31 PM

10. No it wasn't

The poll is in Hebrew - that graphic is English.

I read Silverstein's blog regularly - though, like DU, it is sometimes ridiculous.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #10)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 11:30 PM

18. so it's a bad translation, is that what your saying?

if so do you have a more accurate translation no not an analysis and spin but a solid translation of the poll itself, just the poll?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #18)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 08:13 AM

25. The poll is in Hebrew

I have no way of determining whether or not any translation is good or bad.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #25)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 08:30 AM

26. so you don't accept the English translation contained in the link you posted either?

lies all lies or something?

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #26)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 09:20 AM

29. The poll is in Hebrew

You wrote that it was published in Ha'aretz, but it wasn't. They have not even claimed to have published the whole poll, in either language. Gideon Levy just wrote two articles about it, highlighting whatever elements of the poll he wished. The whole poll is available in Richard Silverstein site and elsewhere, but was not by Ha'aretz. That's my point.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #29)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 03:17 PM

30. your point seem quite movable so you now say the link with translation you posted was accurate?

you seem some how uncomfortable with that, and Haaretz printed a graphic of the results but you are right not the actual poll, still it does not alter the results Haaretz made them easier to understand

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #6)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 10:43 PM

14. Silverstein's blog is good fantasy

Comic relief when you want to escape the real world and read about fantasy war scenarios with Iran.

(even reportedly plagiarized ones lifted from Israeli sites)


http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2012/08/15/bibis-secret-war-plan/

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Response to King_David (Reply #14)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 11:27 PM

17. yep thanks for pointing out why that was chosen over Ha'aretz

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Response to King_David (Reply #14)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 05:55 AM

23. His next exclusive will be about holes in bagels....

...being a Mossad plot intended to starve the Palestinian population.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #4)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 06:18 AM

24. Israelis Support Apartheid? Not So Fast.

http://thecamelsnose.blogspot.com/2012/10/israelis-support-apartheid-not-so-fast.html


1) The poll has unclear coding.

2) The poll results show large in-group variation.

3) The poll does not control for ethnicity.

4) The poll is based on perceptions, not legal definitions of apartheid.

cont'd...

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Response to shira (Reply #24)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 08:49 PM

35. These objections are completely spurious...

1) Every poll does this. Virtually every poll asks participants to self-select their identification from various categories. And virtually every person with some form of "mixed" identity faces a quandary when selecting to which category they belong.

2) Every poll does this. For example, each year the ADL releases a survey saying that 15% of Americans are anti-semitic (although their questions tend to be a bit ropey). In fact, there are huge variations within the group. White, college-educated people tend to be far less anti-semitic than others.

3) Spurious objection. The poll was intended to survey Israeli Jews. That it did not survey Arab Israelis does not invalidate its results.

4) Spurious objection. The poll asks Israelis whether they think apartheid exists in Israeli society. It does not purport to say whether Israelis are correct or not in thinking that way. If you think that Israelis are too stupid to recognise whether apartheid exists in Israel, does that mean that they are too stupid to recognise if Iran or Ahhadinejad is a threat or not? If so, then you could pretty much seek to invalidate any polling result.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #35)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 08:51 PM

36. So spurious, NIF disassociated itself from poll it commissioned. n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #36)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 09:03 PM

37. I can understand why it does kinda make the New Israel Fund look bad

for commissioning such a poll in the first place, in the future best just stick to polling Palestinians the results are usually far more 'desirable'

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #37)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 09:46 PM

38. Exactly, just like that time the American Jewish Committee

included a question in its 1986 survey asking US Jews if they sympathised with the views of Meir Kahane. It turns out quite a few of them did.

Other than in 1986 and 1992, the question was never asked again. I guess it wasnt the kind of answer that they were looking for.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 07:35 PM

11. Haaretz and Apartheid: The Full Picture

http://storify.com/avimayer/haaretz-and-apartheid-the-full-picture

Haaretz and "Apartheid": The Full Picture

A half-truth is a whole lie.

.....


Yes, 33% of Jewish Israelis believe Israeli Arabs should be prevented by law from voting for the Knesset. But a large majority of 59% -- including 77% of secular Israelis, 51% of traditional Israelis, and 44% of religious Israelis -- oppose such a measure. This figure did not appear in either Haaretz piece.

.....

Yes, 42% of Jewish Israelis say it would "bother them" if an Arab family lived in their building. But a majority of 53% -- including 68% of secular Israelis and 47% of traditional Israelis -- say it would not bother them. This figure did not appear in either Haaretz piece.

.....

So when Levy writes that "the majority doesn't want Arabs to vote for the Knesset, Arab neighbors at home or Arab students at school," he is not only producing false information and contradicting himself -- he is actually presenting claims that are diametrically opposed to the reality presented in the survey. In fact, a large majority of Jewish Israelis do want Arab citizens to be able to participate in the democratic process, a majority would be perfectly comfortable living with Arab families in the same building, and a plurality would be fine with their children going to school with Arab peers. These findings represent a clear rejection of the hypothetical expressions of racism presented in the questions.

.....

There is no "74 percent majority in favor" of separate roads, and the majority does not "want" them, as Levy claims. Fully two thirds -- 67% -- of Jewish Israelis say the existence of separate roads in the West Bank is "not good." Of that 67%, the 50% who say there is "nothing to be done" are not endorsing "segregation," as Levy maliciously charges, but rather acknowledging that there is no choice under present circumstances. This may be because, as the Ministry of Justice stated in 2007, restrictions on Palestinian travel in the West Bank have prevented hundreds of terror attacks. Regardless, claiming that Jewish Israelis want to be separated from Palestinian drivers on West Bank roads is a gross distortion of the data.

.....

And now, on to apartheid.

Writes Levy in his op-ed:

We're racists, the Israelis are saying, we practice apartheid and we even want to live in an apartheid state. Yes, this is Israel.
Quite a charge. As a reminder, the massive Hebrew headline was "Majority of Israelis Support Apartheid Regime in Israel" and the English one was "Survey: Most Israeli Jews support apartheid regime in Israel" (both have since been changed). These headlines were then parroted around the world, even though the text of the original article does not support them.

The article itself reads:

Most of the Jewish public in Israel supports the establishment of an apartheid regime in Israel if it formally annexes the West Bank... A large majority of 69 percent objects to giving 2.5 million Palestinians the right to vote if Israel annexes the West Bank.


That's it. Those are the only two lines on which either the original or the revised headlines could possibly have been based. The question and responses on which the lines themselves were based is as follows:

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Response to shira (Reply #11)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 08:25 PM

12. seems Avi managed to pull humself away from obsessing over twitter feeds for this spin

the poll speaks for itself spin it any way you please

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 08:58 PM

13. I think it's funny how bigots spin polls to portray Jews...

...as being racist.

I can't think of any other people who loathe Palestinians more than the bigots and Jew haters who attack Israel and 'Zionists' round the clock. The same apologists for apartheid who cannot and will not see genuine apartheid vs. Palestinians in Lebanon.

How can anyone take such people seriously?

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Response to shira (Reply #13)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 11:23 PM

16. again the Haaretz graphic gives the poll results and speaks for itself

now I am sorry if those results make you uncomfortable or are not in line with what you've been promoting here but here it is once again

http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.471827.1350989040!/image/1004082658.jpg

I would say the damning is the undeniable support for transferring 'some' Israeli Arabs or Palestinians with Israeli citizenship to the West Bank from Israel within the green line

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #16)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 05:54 AM

22. Do you now believe there's apartheid within Israel....

....within the 1948-67 lines?

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Response to shira (Reply #22)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 08:33 AM

27. I actually don't know but apparently

a majority of Israeli's believe there is

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #27)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 07:06 PM

32. You know what I hate about Israelis?

they're so damn antisemitic.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Reply #32)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 07:48 PM

34. The poll is crap & so are the results & conclusions.

New Israel Fund disassociated itself from the poll they commissioned.

Sorry to burst that bubble.

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #12)

Wed Oct 24, 2012, 10:47 PM

15. Catching antisemites red handed

is not really 'obsessing'

Well done Avi.

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Response to King_David (Reply #15)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 05:17 AM

20. Some obviously don't like when anti-Semites are caught red handed. n/t

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Response to shira (Reply #20)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 08:34 AM

28. some like it even less when the antisemite gets condemned from the 'wrong' party

one would think that condemnation would be accepted with more grace than we saw here

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Response to azurnoir (Reply #28)

Thu Oct 25, 2012, 04:43 PM

31. They all pots and kettles

There is no difference between any of them despite their little internecine hissy fit.

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Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Fri Oct 26, 2012, 09:11 PM

39. Palestine

If this isn't apartheid, then I don't know what is.

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Response to dontknowmuchbout (Reply #39)

Sun Oct 28, 2012, 04:29 PM

42. Clearly. nt

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Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2012, 09:26 AM

40. Most of us don't want apartheid

Let's begin with the headline; its dramatic effect is in direct proportion to its misleading information. There is no basis in the data for maintaining that most Israelis support an "apartheid regime" in Israel. In fact, in the article, the small print, the sensational conclusion is restricted by the words: "If it (Israel) annexes the territories." But even after the correction, the conclusion is mistaken and misleading. That's because it's based on the fact that 69 percent said they opposed granting the right to vote to the Palestinians if the West Bank were annexed.

But this finding must be examined in light of the fact that according to the survey, most Israeli Jews oppose annexing the territories. In response to the question "Would you want Israel to annex the territories with settlements in them?" (and note, it does not refer to the territories but only to those "with settlements in them" ), 48 percent said they opposed annexation, while 33 percent supported it.

But here's the thing: Most Israeli Jews really do object, and rightly so, to letting the 2.5 million Arabs in the territories vote in Knesset elections, because that means the end of Israel as a Jewish state and the end of the Zionist dream. But the same majority is also unwilling to live in a country with an "apartheid regime," so it opposes the annexation of territories. That's the survey's most important finding, and its conclusion is exactly the opposite of what's written in the article's headline.

The pull quote that says 58 percent believe that an "apartheid regime" already reigns in Israel is mistaken and misleading. According to the findings, when asked "Is there apartheid in Israel?" 31 percent said there was no apartheid at all, only 19 percent said there was apartheid in many fields, and 39 percent said it existed "in a few fields." The very use of the word "apartheid," which was not even defined, is somewhat misleading and clearly shows the objective of the people who commissioned the survey.

The most reasonable meaning of the response "in a few fields" is that in Israel there is discrimination against Arabs on certain issues. Unfortunately, that's the situation and it needs improvement, but it's a far cry from concluding that most Israeli Jews believe that an "apartheid regime" reigns in Israel.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/most-of-us-don-t-want-apartheid.premium-1.472660

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Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Sun Oct 28, 2012, 09:33 AM

41. Haaretz apologizes for distorted article

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=iw&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Frotter.net%2Fforum%2Fscoops1%2F17057.shtml

In an article titled "Most Israelis support Apartheid", which presented a survey carried out by radical leftist Institute distortions were so great unseasonably Ha'aretz, published in today's issue a clarification on the "formulation of the article."

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Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 05:57 PM

43. BOGUS


Shonky poll serves to demonise Israelis as pro-apartheid

by: Alex Ryvchin
From:The Australian
November 01, 201212:00AM


ON October 23, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz ran a front-page story under the headline "Most Israelis support apartheid regime in the country", based on a clearly politicised push poll.

Once the poll findings were properly analysed and the flawed methodology and highly manipulative questions were revealed, Haaretz apologised, printed a retraction and admitted that its headline was misleading and the "apartheid" slur was misplaced. But the damage had been done. The original article was front-page news but the retraction was tucked away on page 5.

Gideon Levy, the journalist who "broke" the story (and was forced to write the retraction), has now admitted making "mistakes" that "shouldn't have happened", dubiously citing "neglect due to time pressures".
While Haaretz's admissions won't be noticed outside Israel, the original story was quickly picked up around the world. Britain's The Guardian and The Independent, Toronto's The Globe and Mail and The Sydney Morning Herald all ran the story under headlines as misleading as that of the original Haaretz piece: "Many Israelis support apartheid-style state, poll suggests" and "The new Israeli apartheid".


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/shonky-poll-serves-to-demonise-israelis-as-pro-apartheid/story-e6frgd0x-1226507832675

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Response to shaayecanaan (Original post)

Wed Oct 31, 2012, 08:02 PM

44. Retraction by Gideon Levy

The truth, as I wrote in the news piece, is different: "Just" 33 percent of the respondents said they don't want Arabs to vote in parliamentary elections, "just" 42 percent wouldn't want an Arab neighbor, and about the same proportion said it would bother them if there were an Arab student in their child's class. Not a majority - just a (large ) portion of Israelis espouse these frightening views. Cold comfort.

Imagine a similar survey in France: A third of the French don't want Jews to be eligible to vote and nearly half don't want a Jewish neighbor or a Jewish student in their child's class. The right-wing propagandists who are currently causing a ruckus about my mistake would be among the first to shout "anti-Semitism." But for us, the Jews, it's allowed.

The routine excoriation took off. The mirror reflects an unsightly image? Let's smash it. The messenger stumbles? Let's slander him, and to hell with everything else described in his article, even discounting the mistake. This is what propagandists always do. One particularly pathetic one has built an entire career out of ridiculously rummaging through negligible errors. Instead of anger being directed toward the findings of the survey - which is what should have caused a scandal - many readers and commentators focused on the unfortunate mistakes that were made. Those errors did not change the survey results even one iota, but they did divert the public's attention from the important to the trivial.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/errors-and-omissions-excepted.premium-1.472852

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