Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumKenneth Roth: What’s Wrong With You?
Kenneth Roth, Executive Director of Human Right Watch: New York, thinks that Israeli aid to Nepal in light of the earthquake there is a rallying cry for Gaza.
Kenneth Roth ✔@KenRoth
Easier to address a far-away humanitarian disaster than the nearby one of Israel's making in Gaza. End the blockade! https://twitter.com/IsraelMFA/status/592334588195790848 …
12:59 PM - 26 Apr 2015
Roth’s 140 characters are packed full of dubious assertions and an even stranger conclusion. Roth asserts that Gaza’s status is equal that of Nepal (or perhaps worse), that it is entirely Israel’s making and that Israel is whitewashing its image through “easy” humanitarian gestures in Nepal rather than deal with a disaster for which it is entirely culpable. The only conclusion from this statement is that Israel should not help anyone else until the situation in Gaza is remedied.
Firstly the assertion that the situation in Gaza is akin to that in Nepal is clearly absurd as the first is a human made disaster and the second a natural disaster. They are ethically different fields. Erdogan’s Turkey sent Israel aid in fighting the Carmel Forrest Fire in 2010.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/kenneth-roth-whats-wrong-with-you/
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shira
(30,109 posts)Secondly, Gaza’s human disaster is by no means Israel’s fault alone. The situation in Gaza has deteriorated since Hamas’ 2006 coup and development/reconstruction efforts there are hindered by Hamas’ control of the flow of materials once they’re in Gaza. With regards to the flow of materials into Gaza, it is Egypt – not Israel – that maintains a complete blockade of the territory; all materials entering Gaza are permitted entry by and through Israel.
Perhaps Roth would commend Egypt for not sending aid to Nepal as it is more consistent with their treatment of Gaza.
Thirdly, it is hubris to call Israel’s humanitarian missions to Haiti, Japan and Nepal easy. Massive funds are devoted to sending Israelis charged with defending their own state to risk their lives in geographically dangerous areas. When they arrive they meet huge demand and throw themselves into physical exhaustion to help people to whom we owe nothing. Israel is not the United States and does not have local bases of operation all over the globe.
Most importantly, even if we were to accept all of Roth’s assertions as true, the conclusion is still illogical. There is no imperative that those who have caused bad cause no good.
There certainly are not the same calculations on what aid is given when the entity in need is friendly rather than hostile. Never mind the fact that we’ve never been at war with Nepal and that the country has almost no known incidents of anti-Semitism, we even help the sick and injured from entities with whom we’re technically (Syria) or de facto (Gaza) at war. Should we deny those persons access to our medical facilities until all hostilities have been resolved?
The 140 characters evidence a psychology so warped that many more characters are needed to address it. In plain English: the two have nothing to do with each other. What is wrong with you that your hatred of Israel would have you call for others to go without assistance they desperately need? Because that’s what you said.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I was dying to know.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or perhaps a My Little Pony aficionado.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Apparently you don't like Israel haters being exposed.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Israel is evil so they can do nothing right. It's all a show, aid-washing....
They may as well not even try b/c the Israel-Sucks brigade isn't fooled.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Israel does not address the humanitarian disasters on its own doorstep. I have yet to see you have any response to this problem, other than collectively blaming "the arabs" while exonerating Israel of even the slightest ethical duty to help people who are just trying to not fucking get killed.
You also have no issue with the creation of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza, because no matter the suffering, no matter the privation, no matter the death toll, the disease, the infant mortality, you will always, absolutely always go "Hamas!" Even if this were a valid argument, couldn't Israel do something to help these people out? As I explained to someone in the BOG a few years back, bombs do not qualify as "humanitarian aid."
so now comes Nepal. The death toll is still rolling in. And the response? You have declared Israel immune to all criticism, because it is pitching in some help. God, if only that worked for other nations too! North Korea chips in five bucks (30% of its annual GDP) and all is forgiven! You complain about Max Blumenthal lodging an entirely legitimate complaint over what is very obviously a pure PR piece from Jerusalem Post. Abuminah's "crime" is calling people out for doing exactly what you are doing right here, right now.
shira
(30,109 posts)Practically all anti-zionists who claim they're anti-racist & turn out NOT to be.
It's not about blaming "the arabs", it's about holding the PA and Hamas accountable for what they do. Anti-Zionists appear to think that the PA and Hamas cannot help what they're doing, they must be treated as babies, and all accountability goes to Israel.
It's all on Hamas.
Using building materials for tunnels rather than homes and schools. Using billions from foreign aid on weaponry rather than civil infrastructure. Gazans know this all too well even if their "supporters" pretend not to.
I'm not saying all is okay with Israel. I'm arguing that assholes should stop being assholes when Israel can seemingly do nothing right. Israel may as well not help anyone based on such a mindset.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)I'm Ginger according to you, right?
Whatever you say.
shira
(30,109 posts)?@MaxBlumenthal
For a country responsible for so many man-made catastrophes, natural disasters can't come often enough: http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Netanyahu-briefed-on-efforts-to-help-Nepal-after-quake-This-is-the-real-face-of-Israel-399246 … #hasbara
https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/592394910143225856
shira
(30,109 posts)— Rania Khalek (@RaniaKhalek) April 26, 2015
https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/status/592434296041971713
— Rania Khalek (@RaniaKhalek) April 26, 2015
shira
(30,109 posts)Propaganda operation goes into high gear to exploit Nepal earthquake to improve Israel's blood-soaked image
https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/592398890839584769
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Gaza
The 5th child to die of the cold – one died on 9 Jan, two on 10 Jan, and one on 13 Jan. The oldest was 1 1/2 years old.
Father finds five-month-old son frozen to death in Gaza
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip 20 Jan — A grieving father has recounted to NBC News how his five-month-old son froze to death after the family’s Gaza home was bombed by Israel. Sami Abu Khesi is among the Palestinians who have yet to rebuild in the wake of last summer’s conflict which left more than 2,100 people dead. His son, Wadie, was born in Gaza’s Nasser Hospital as fighting raged between Hamas militants and Israeli forces on August 15. After the cease-fire, Wadie was brought home. But amid the worst winter weather in years, Wadie was found dead on January 15. “His mother was nudging but there was no life,” Khesi said in what remains of his home in Gaza City’s Shijaiyah neighborhood, some walls nothing more than scrap metal and nylon sheets. “So I looked at the boy and he was frozen. She woke me up and I found that he was frozen.” The Gaza Ministry of Health has not issued an official cause of death, but the family believes it was hypothermia. Relatives say he had previously been in good health. The ministry has confirmed four children have died as a result of hypothermia this winter … “We have never seen a winter like this,” said Khesi, whose two other daughters, Jannat and Suna, remain bundled up in heavy clothes even when inside. “It has been cold in the past, but at least we could put them in homes to protect them. Now, there is nothing to put them in. All we have is nylon.”
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/father-finds-five-month-old-son-frozen-death-gaza-n289371
- See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/exposure-freezing-temperatures#sthash.Ao8q5l7F.dpuf
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That's weird because from the article it seems like it's due to the extremely unseasonably cold winter.
In the US, over 2,000 people die each year from hypothermia.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)bombing campaign
Israeli
(4,148 posts)ref : http://www.democraticunderground.com/113485353
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Or no concern about the mass infestation of Jew haters within the anti-Israel movement.
Also, those who believe most claims of antisemitism are BS, because they know better than Jews.
Israeli
(4,148 posts)Its the poor Palestine Gazelle thats been making waves today :
http://972mag.com/zoological-terrorism-israelis-up-in-arms-over-palestine-gazelle/106009/
How crazy can it get ?........that crazy .
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I guess it's no surprise that there is so much overlap between Zionism and fundamentalist christianity
Israeli
(4,148 posts)Wonder what Stephen Hawking would make of it all 
.......probably laugh his head off .
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Okay. In the US, 2,000 people die each year from hypothermia. Why? Becuase they have no fucking shelter. Why? Well, usually due to predatory economic practices, a failed safety net, and our society's complete inability to address mental illness.
People in Gaza freezing to death? Why? Again, same reason, no shelter. Why do they have no shelter? Because their houses got fucking bombed.
"Golly, it must be the cold!" Holy shit, dude, could you be any more callous and dismissive of human suffering and the causes behind it?
shira
(30,109 posts)Hamas couldn't give a crap about Gazans. This is a terror group which deliberately uses children as human shields and militants. They couldn't be thrilled more that Israel is blamed for their crimes against humanity by unhinged, pathological, and insane haters of Israel.
Go on, defend Hamas' tunnels. Tell me why it's more important for Hamas to invest so much in tunnels than to build schools, homes, and YES shelters!
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You're aware that the primary cause of the lack of buildings and infrastructure in Gaza, is due to Israeli bombs destroying those things, right? I'm sure you have an excuse for that, you never lack for one where Arab suffering is concerned, but there's simply no way to dispute that the lack of homes in Gaza is directly correlated to the amount of Israeli bombs that struck homes in Gaza. Hamas isn't helping to be sure, but the primary cause of the problem - destroyed houses - is the fact that bombs destroy houses.
shira
(30,109 posts)....into Israel as peace offerings? Is it because Hamas deliberately shields themselves and weaponry within civilian infrastructure?
I don't even know why I ask this. You don't believe Israel should respond militarily to Hamas' rockets. They should just take it, wait it out in bomb shelters (maybe forever) and hope to god that Iron Dome repels every rocket.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But the primary cause of the lack of homes is still Israel's bombs being dropped on those homes.
shira
(30,109 posts)I hear 'ya.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...in any practical manner are spewing antisemitism whether they know it or not.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I believe this is a scientific fact. I believe this fact has been demonstrated and proven with very alarming regularity over the last hundred years.
You are so pickled in your absolute hatred of Arabs that you can't even admit to the basic physical science behind the methods by which you want them killed.
shira
(30,109 posts)....Hamas from firing its rockets into Israel....ever. Is that what you're saying?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)These are physical facts, Shira.
- Bombs dropped on houses destroy houses.
- Israel dropped bombs on houses in Gaza.
- People whose homes are destroyed become homeless.
- Homeless people are at much greater risk for hypothermia.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The rampant tunnel reconstruction is not only indicative of the military wing’s conduct, but also of the warped priorities of a movement that started out as a welfare organization. The military wing has risen against its founders. Operation Protective Edge inflicted immense damage on Gaza, resulting in more than 2,200 fatalities, thousands of wounded and unprecedented devastation to houses and infrastructure. A quarter of the population is homeless. Still today, thousands of families whose homes were destroyed live in public buildings.
Discussion of Gaza’s rehabilitation and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' role in making it happen has remained mere talk. Once again, Hamas is investing the scant resources it can get its hands on in preparing for the next war. From talks I have had with Hamas activists in the past, they do not consider their armament and organizational activities offensive preparations, but rather defensive actions, against Israel’s aggression. Even if one accepted this argument at face value, it is hard to understand why the movement, recently declared by Egypt a terrorist organization, isn't engaged in some soul-searching instead of adopting a business-as-usual approach while making jihad against Israel its top priority.
That the dire situation of Gaza residents is being ignored at the expense of rebuilding the military wing can perhaps be explained by the balance of power in the Hamas movement in recent years. The military wing has become the leader, setting the tone, while the political leadership toes the line. As long as power remains in the hands of the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the movement’s priorities will continue to be the consolidation and buildup of the military wing, only after showing some concern for the daily existence of Gaza residents.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/03/hamas-gaza-strip-tunnel-infrastructure-rebuilding.html#ixzz3YeDqwog7
shira
(30,109 posts)They can't just let Hamas shoot rockets forever into Israel, hoping Iron Dome works with 100% efficiency.
So what can they do?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Better to get killed by rockets than try ANYTHING that would effectively get Hamas to stop firing rockets.
What's moral about your position?
Oh right, nothing. We had a discussion already in which you failed to take out a terrorist sniper shooting at your own children (and many other children), for fear you might kill the kids he surrounded himself with.
Very Orange
(31 posts)The first thing to build is shelters. Hamas who controls Gaza has diverted it to tunnels. Cement is one of the key ingredients for infrastructure building - and where did it go?
You can guess.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)please post a link validating that
shira
(30,109 posts)....for their homelessness. They also don't give a shit. This is Hamas, using children as human shields and militants. Why would they "waste" time on building homes when it's more important to work on terror tunnels and gear up for their next war against Israel?
Second, Hamas doesn't need cement or steel to build homes. All they need is mud and brick & there's plenty of that in Gaza.
http://www.irinnews.org/photogallery/gaza_mud_brick_houses_mar2010/index.html
In 2010 they cost about $10,000 to build and they last for 100 years.
Now tell me why Gazans are still in tents.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)and if Palestinians could build with mud and brick at a rate that would house 100,000 people in period of 4 months Bibi would have employed them as constructions workers in E1
shira
(30,109 posts)It's not that there hasn't been enough time yet.
Again, why is Hamas not getting homes built for Gazans?
shira
(30,109 posts)Hamas wanted a war, they got it. So the least they could do is build homes rather than divert all materials to the terror tunnel industry.
How do you think Hamas' obsession with killing Jews will work out for the average Gazan once there's another war initiated by hundreds of Hamas rockets?
shira
(30,109 posts)...involved in disaster relief?
Or is it just Israel?
And don't you want to add something about Israel's nefarious plan to harvest organs from unsuspecting poor people in Nepal?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You're looking at a devastating earthquake, and your sole concern is that its potential as a PR coup for Israel. Seriously, your response to something dumb isn't saying 'that's dumb," it's acting - yes acting - aghast that someone would dare have something negative to say about Israel, because it's sending relief somewhere!
So what? No, really, so what? The US sends relief every-fucking-where, that doesn't make blowing people up at random in Pakistan okay. And importantly, no one even tries to make that argument. it's so stupid that i'm sure even Michelle Malkin would step around it after a moment's consideration. China's sending lots of relief and aid, we ought to forgive their violations of human decency?
of course not
Now hey, good for Israel in sending help to Nepal. Nepal needs it, Israel is helping provide it, it's the least that can be done, but at least it's getting done. That's good, and I have no complaint for it. No, I have no complaints but i do have a handful of concerns.
- Israel can help Nepal, okay great, but why does it tell needy people on its own doorstep to fuck off and die?
- Why are we expected to give a pass to Israel for what it does to Palestine, because it meets a minimum standard of contribution somewhere else?
- How is it that someone who argued that the Himalayas are beachfront property, suddenly has so much concern for the people of Nepal?
That is, while it's great that Israel is helping Nepal, it would be even better if it weren't being treated as PR opportunity. it would be best if Israel could scratch at least a little lint form its pockets to help out some people who need it right there where Israel lives, too.
Israeli
(4,148 posts)....shira is all about anti semitism .....she probably checks under the bed before she goes to sleep every night .
She is motivated by her Judaism and her fears ....and probably the sense of not belonging within her society . Which is what motivates most American Jews to move here .
Only when they do ....they find out that they were probably better off staying where they were .
shira
(30,109 posts)....Jews can't ignore genuine threats to their well-being. The good thing is we don't have to take this shit anymore, ever since 1948. The Israel-Sucks brigade prefers Jews going back to their situation (with pograms, etc.).
Israeli
(4,148 posts).....in America ??
Really ?.........its that bad over there shira ?
You should move over here ......why havent you BTW ??????
shira
(30,109 posts)...if BDS is successful in their attempt for 1-state, Jewish minority?
Is it that easy? Jews should just leave for America?
No shira ....I'm not saying Israelis should move to America .
I'm saying you as an American Jew seem to think you are Israeli ......
ref : " ...Jews can't ignore genuine threats to their well-being. The good thing is we don't have to take this shit anymore, ever since 1948. The Israel-Sucks brigade prefers Jews going back to their situation (with pograms, etc.)....."
You are American shira.
I understand that your religion is important to you ....but ...if you want to talk the talk ...why havent you walked the walk first ???
shira
(30,109 posts)We were all targeted throughout Europe just 70-80 years ago, not just the religious Jews.
The BDS, Israel-Sucks brigade doesn't distinguish between Jews either (whether religious or not). Those Jews who are not for BDS (around 99% of all Jews) are now the targets. Zionists aren't even the target, as there are more non-Jewish than Jewish Zionists. No, Jews are the target.
Do you really think advocates of a Jewish-minority 1-state solution care about your well being in a state that could very well be ruled by Hamas or some Hamas/PA/Islamic Jihad entity? These folks could care less about Palestinians. Jews, less than that.
Israeli
(4,148 posts).....not all of us agree with you :
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/shlomo-sand-i-wish-to-cease-considering-myself-a-jew
You havent answered my question BTW .....twice now.
shira
(30,109 posts)....doesn't agree, preferring not to be a part of the Jewish people. A very insignificant minority for good reason. Sand's work is very popular with neo-Nazis and KKK'ers. They love Jews who trash other Jews.
As to why I don't live in Israel? Could happen....maybe later, maybe not. The reason why Israel matters to me is that it's the land of my ancestors, same language, same culture, same traditions. I care about my fellow Jews. I know, that's terrible so sue me! I also know that if the shit hits the fan again, Israel is still there if I (or my children & grandchildren) absolutely need it. I don't see why I need to live there in order to have an opinion. I know enough to realize my views line up very well with the vast majority of Jews already in Israel. I'm told here that Zionists are Zionists, rather leftwing or rightwing, all racist, etc. So that puts me in good company with nearly all of Israel's Jews. I'm curious to know how you respond to those Jews living in Israel since you can't use that line on them (when are you moving to Israel). If anything, your views align much better with people who do NOT live in Israel. You may as well be speaking as a foreigner who doesn't really "get" the situation there unless she lives there.
Israeli
(4,148 posts)********
We are here if you or your children and grandchildren need a place to run to .
That about sums it up .
In the meantime ....God bless America ....huh ?
shira
(30,109 posts)...have neither the possibility nor the qualifications to join."
What does THAT mean? How should someone understand a statement like that?
Israeli
(4,148 posts)Its like talking to a brick wall .
Never mind ....forget it shira .
shira
(30,109 posts)Israeli
(4,148 posts)I am not responsible for your lack of intellect shira ...if you cant comprehend it all by yourself its not my problem .
shira
(30,109 posts)1. It was an attack on all Jews. (Being in their own exclusive, racist, supremacist club).
2. It was a lie. (No one can become a Jew? And therefore become part of this exclusive supremacist and racist little club? Really?)
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Does rendering hundreds of thousands of people in gaza homeless make you safer, in any tangible way? if so, can you explain how?
shira
(30,109 posts)If yes, please explain.
shira
(30,109 posts)Last edited Tue Apr 28, 2015, 05:19 PM - Edit history (1)
...Israel does, good or bad. It's a pathological obsession that I doubt he dabbles in WRT any other country on the planet.
YOU don't even have to say a thing, good or bad. Just let it be.
The point is that there's a certain group of people who ALWAYS do this. Whether it's relief to Haiti or Nepal, Israel has some ulterior motive. Gay rights in Israel? Pinkwashing. Offering peace and 2-states to Palestinians; evil intent & it's no wonder the Palestinians respond with violence. Compared to other armies, IDF has fewer incidents of rape? Well, it must be due to the fact they consider Arab women so repulsive they don't want anything to do with them.
This is classic anti-semitism, in which ANYTHING the Jew (or Jew of the world like Israel) does, is always portrayed in the darkest light. It's an obsessive, pathological hate where Jews are ALWAYS bad.
Israel treats and saves the lives of Gazans and Syrians as well.
Don't think of it as giving Israel a pass. Just lay off the stupid, hateful & unwarranted criticism in which Israel can never do anything good.
Is that a question for me personally? It has nothing to do with whether I care about the people of Nepal. I'm just pointing out how insanely hateful Israel's most hostile & unhinged critics are.
R. Daneel Olivaw
(12,606 posts)
