Elon Musk Is Right: Hydrogen Is ‘An Incredibly Dumb’ Car Fuel (aka claptrap)

[NYC_SKP]

Elon Musk Is Right: Hydrogen Is ‘An Incredibly Dumb’ Car Fuel



Last month, Tesla CEO Elon Musk explained at length why hydrogen fuel cell cars “are extremely silly” and why “hydrogen is an incredibly dumb” alternative fuel.

Musk also said, “there’s no need for us to have this debate. I’ve said my peace on this, it will be super obvious as time goes by.” Indeed, it is super obvious already, as I’ve written many times — see my 2014 series, “Tesla Trumps Toyota,” which explains why hydrogen cars can’t compete with pure electric cars. A key reason Musk calls hydrogen “incredibly dumb” — its untenably inefficient use of carbon-free power compared to electric vehicles (EVs) — is detailed below.

In the meantime, Musk — whose Tesla bio lists him as “Co-Founder, CEO, and Product Architect” — has been amping up his efforts to be the next Steve Jobs and to make his electric car company, Tesla, the next Apple. Bloomberg reported last week that the 6000-worker company “has hired at least 150 former Apple employees, more than from any other company, even carmakers.”

“It’s almost an unfair advantage,” according to Morgan Stanley auto industry analyst Adam Jonas. He told Bloomberg, “As software goes from 10 percent of the value of the car to 60 over 10 years, that disadvantage [for traditional carmakers] will intensify.”

more at link: http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/02/12/3621136/tesla-elon-musk-hydrogen-dumb/

[nilram]

1. Thank-you, Elon!

I keep saying this almost as often as I see the letter H but no one listens to me around here except the dog.

[AllyCat]

2. Why is hiring former Apple employees an "unfair advantage"?

The embodied energy in hydrogen fuel cells is really high. I've never understood why he PTB like it so much.

[NYC_SKP]

4. TPTB love hydrogen because we'll still need that middleman delivery infrastructure.

This is why I think proponents of H2 are shills. Either that or they just aren't very bright.

And TPTB love it because most of the electricity will come from coal and natural gas.

[AllyCat]

5. Figures it was something like that.

[Jim Lane]

6. I understand the infrastructure issue but your second point confuses me.

Of the hydrogen fuel cell technology, you write:

And TPTB love it because most of the electricity will come from coal and natural gas.

As I understand the system, there are similarities between a Tesla and a fuel-cell car. In either case, you have to start the process by generating electricity somehow -- coal, natural gas, nuclear, renewables, whatever. With a Tesla, you use that electricity to charge the batteries. With a fuel cell, you use that electricity to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen, and the hydrogen is stored in the cell so that it can be burned (recombined with oxygen) by the car.

In each case, you start with electricity, and it doesn't matter where it came from. There's nothing inherently more fossil-fuel-oriented about fuel cells.

I can think of only one limited exception. I saw something about a roadside unit being installed in Europe where the module had solar panels on top and could use them to recharge batteries. If it would be a lot harder to do something similar (small and local) for fuel cells, then a Tesla could more readily use solar as its ultimate energy source.

To consider Tesla superior on that score, however, you have to assume that a significant share of the energy used by Teslas would actually come from such small solar installations. My guess is that that's not a valid assumption. Even if batteries are recharged locally, it would be with energy from the grid, which could just as easily come from coal or natural gas.

Would you elaborate on that part of what you wrote?

[NYC_SKP]

7. The fossil fuel industry isn't so much interested in selling NG and coal as it is in delivery.

Delivery and message.

We are watching in real time with Toyota and the Hydrogen Economy Movement what took place during that era that streetcars were eliminated in favor of buses and autos.

Infrastructure and repeated need for commodities through a controlled economic channel is behind the H2 claptrap.

The replaceable razor blade industry was founded and continues to thrive on this model.

So does the inkjet printer model. Here, buy this inkjet printer but pay through the butt for cartridges.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

3. The REASON hydogen is DUMB is because the source is still from OIL (AKA: Hydrocarbons)

[OKIsItJustMe]

9. Actually, most hydrogen is generated from natural gas at this point (they’re both fossil fuels…)

On the other hand, there are may other ways to generate hydrogen.
http://mae.engr.ucdavis.edu/~hypaul/projects.htm

[Spitfire of ATJ]

10. We need to take this research away from the energy companies....

All they can do is think of ways to sucker people because that has been their modus operandi for far too long.

[OKIsItJustMe]

11. Hydrogen/fuel cell research is being carried out at universities and national labs

http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/
http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/fuel-cell-technologies-office
http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/activity/chemical-engineering/energy-chemical/fuel-cells/index.aspx
http://h2.kyushu-u.ac.jp/english/
http://www.sc.edu/hydrogen/
http://www.engr.psu.edu/h2e/
…

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. I have no problem with the fuel cells...

It's the oil companies corruption on the source of the fuel.

[OKIsItJustMe]

13. Interesting… How about sewage treatment plants?

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sewage-could-provide-fuel-of-the-future/

[font face=Serif][font size=5]Sewage Could Provide Fuel of the Future[/font]
[font size=4]One source of hydrogen for hydrogen cars will be wastewater, at least in California[/font]

November 19, 2014 |By Julia Pyper and ClimateWire

[font size=3]FOUNTAIN VALLEY, Calif.—The contents of your toilet could soon be powering your car and helping to cut down greenhouse gas emissions.

In this suburb of Los Angeles, FuelCell Energy Inc. is operating the world's first "tri-generation" plant that converts sewage into electrical power for an industrial facility and renewable hydrogen for transportation fuel.

The system runs on anaerobically digested biogas from the Orange County Sanitation District's municipal wastewater treatment plant. A 300-kilowatt-hour molten carbonate fuel cell uses the biogas to produce heat, electricity and hydrogen—making it a "tri-generation" system.

Hydrogen produced by the fuel cell is captured, compressed and sent to an on-site public hydrogen filling station for fuel-cell vehicles (FCVs) to use. The energy station produces approximately 100 kilograms of renewable hydrogen per day, which is enough to fuel up to 50 cars.

…[/font][/font]

[Spitfire of ATJ]

14. Conversion would bring a whole new meaning to, "My car was rear ended".

[OKIsItJustMe]

8. Of course, Elon Musk sells expensive battery-powered cars…

Last edited Sat Feb 14, 2015, 08:12 PM - Edit history (1)

You’ll forgive me if I’m somewhat skeptical of his objectivity.

[NYC_SKP]

15. If and when they create a $75 home H2 generator, I'll be interested.

Until then I'll just continue using this:



I had to replace the Prius last month. I bought a Volt.

I'm stoked and I have researched EVs, driven a few EVs on trial in advance of three short articles that have been published, two of the.

By chance did I find myself needing to let the Prius go (burning oil and bad hybrid battery pack at 180K), and wanted a Fusion Energi, but it's a sedan and not really what I wanted.

The Volt is a series hybrid and the form factor is a hatchback with killer room with the back seats down.

I'm loving it.

[OKIsItJustMe]

16. In concept, I prefer the Volt™ to the Prius™

The Volt™ resembles the cars I saw described in Popular Science when I was a youth…

[NYC_SKP]

17. Leather buckets in the back and a lean appearance, rear wheels well to the rear, I like it!

Allow wheels, open to the four wheel discs, and not a cheap feel whatsoever, like the Prius was when I got one new to replace a Volvo V40.

And really quick when you know how to manage the pedal.