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OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 02:11 PM Mar 2012

National Ignition Facility fires record laser shot—…a milepost on the way to fusion energy.

http://www.nature.com/news/national-ignition-facility-fires-record-laser-shot-1.10269
[font face=Times,Times New Roman,Serif][font size=5]National Ignition Facility fires record laser shot[/font]
[font size=4]Powerful pulse a milepost on the way to fusion energy.[/font]

Eric Hand
20 March 2012

[font size=3]The world’s largest laser has just put a little more zing in its zap. On 15 March, the 192 laser beams of the National Ignition Facility (NIF) at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, California, fired a record 1.875-megajoule shot into the laser’s target chamber, surpassing its 1.8-megajoule design specification. The shot, which was just a demonstration and did not incorporate a target, nonetheless represents a milepost in an effort to get past the break-even point — ignition — in coaxing fusion energy from a tiny frozen fuel pellet.

“It’s a remarkable demonstration of the laser from the standpoint of its energy, its precision, its power, and its availability,” says Ed Moses, NIF director. He adds that the shot was 2.03 megajoules after passing through the final focusing lens — making the NIF the world’s first 2-megajoule ultraviolet laser. Final diagnostic and other optics reduced the energy to 1.875 megajoules at the centre of the target chamber.

Most of the NIF’s recent shots have maxed out at 1.6 megajoules. As recently as December, the team was still only 10% of the way towards creating the overall conditions for ignition. Moses declined to say when he will test the 1.875-megajoule capability on a target, but he says that the extra energy will allow more leeway in target designs. He adds that the damage on the laser optics was less than models predicted, and that the laser was able to fire another shot about 36 hours after the record-breaking one.



The NIF is racing to achieve ignition before the end of the fiscal year, when a two-year ignition campaign ends. A larger question for the field of laser fusion is who will support it as a possible energy source. The construction and operation of the NIF has been supported by the US Nuclear Weapons Complex, which uses the facility to test the physics of nuclear bombs, and the US Department of Energy’s fusion-energy budget goes almost entirely to an alternative approach that uses magnets rather than lasers to induce fusion.[/font][/font]
http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature.2012.10269
30 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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National Ignition Facility fires record laser shot—…a milepost on the way to fusion energy. (Original Post) OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 OP
Not the brightest bulb here but this sounds great!!! lostnote12 Mar 2012 #1
Every step toward fusion is priceless. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #2
Is hydrogen from water natural? OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #3
The real question: is photosynthesis without sunlight natural? napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #7
So, if we use sunlight to split water into hydrogen and oxygen OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #9
Oh yeah, hydrogen fuel cells from solar makes perfect sense. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #10
and the immune system makes hydrogen peroxide to attack invaders bananas Mar 2012 #16
Nice breakdown/thanks..... lostnote12 Mar 2012 #4
Yeah, its really the ultimate source of energy. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #8
This may or may not be true OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #13
Just to be pedantic.... Dead_Parrot Mar 2012 #11
Alright, you build that "big bang" turbine and I will eat my hat... napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #12
Well, although it was raised humorously OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #14
We could make some money off it... napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #15
Seriously though OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #19
My heuristic is simpler for identifying energy sources. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2012 #28
Some say Joe is seen daily OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #29
vacuum energy nt bananas Mar 2012 #17
NIF has something to do with FogerRox Mar 2012 #5
Unfortunately.... PamW Mar 2012 #18
Some calculations, like Todd Riders work, FogerRox Mar 2012 #30
Has anyone read this thread? freethought Mar 2012 #6
I have OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #21
At this point solutions that can't be localized aren't helpful. GliderGuider Mar 2012 #20
I don’t see that… OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #22
I know you don't. GliderGuider Mar 2012 #23
I also feel that decentralized power is useful OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #24
The underlying assumption of your position GliderGuider Mar 2012 #25
I’m hoping to avoid (or soften) the blow of that change OKIsItJustMe Mar 2012 #26
Me too. GliderGuider Mar 2012 #27

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
2. Every step toward fusion is priceless.
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 02:34 PM
Mar 2012

Fusion would change the whole future of humanity. Cheap, plentiful clean energy...But a lot of people miss it as the one scientifically valid way to do this in a field of frauds. I'm not Einstein either, but I have a good heuristic for sorting out the frauds. Does nature do it on its own?
1) Fossil/Biological fuels: Yes, metabolism, forest fire
2) Geothermal: Yes, old faithful in yellowstone
3) Solar: Yes, the weather.
4) Wind: Yes, the great sand dunes in Colorado
5) Hydrogen from water? NO water doesn't naturally burn anywhere.
6) Free energy of any kind? No, never observed in nature.
7) Fusion? YES IT POWERS OUR SUN AND THEREFORE CREATED ALL THE OTHER ENERGY SOURCES!

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
3. Is hydrogen from water natural?
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 02:51 PM
Mar 2012

Sure! Green plants do it all the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthesis#Water_photolysis

… Two water molecules are oxidized by four successive charge-separation reactions by photosystem II to yield a molecule of diatomic oxygen and four hydrogen ions…

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
7. The real question: is photosynthesis without sunlight natural?
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 07:30 PM
Mar 2012

No! That's the key, we're talking about SOURCES of energy. When something is a source of energy, meaning you can get energy out of it without having to pour more energy in than you get out.

A 200 lb rock on the edge of a cliff has the potential to do work. (it has low entropy) You could, for instance tie a rope to it, attach it to pulley, and use it to pull your 150 lb friend - tied on the other end of the rope - up to the top of the cliff, so you don't have to do the work. However, once that rock is at the bottom of the cliff (high entropy) you can't get it back by tying your friend to the rope again and having him slide down, the rock weighs more than him. The only way to get it back is to pour in more weight than you did the first time, like by finding a 250 lb rock.

Water is the rock at the bottom of the cliff, its the high entropy state for hydrogen and water. Like the rock you CAN get it back to the top of the cliff (separate hydrogen and water) but it takes more energy than you got out from having them burn (go to the bottom of the cliff)

What we're looking for are the proverbial rocks on cliffs, things we can actually get energy from.

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
10. Oh yeah, hydrogen fuel cells from solar makes perfect sense.
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 10:37 PM
Mar 2012

I didn't know that's what you were talking about. What I was critiquing are those who look at water as a source of energy... Those who say you can have a car that "runs on water", when the car is in fact running off electricity from the grid that spit the water into hydrogen and oxygen.

lostnote12

(159 posts)
4. Nice breakdown/thanks.....
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 05:18 PM
Mar 2012

.........I wish that the good ole boy T-Bone Pickens had emphasized the fusion research more in his attempt to help us off the oil based solution, such as it is......

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
8. Yeah, its really the ultimate source of energy.
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 07:46 PM
Mar 2012

Its like putting a man in space though. That really started hundreds of years ago, with people seeing how high they could shoot rockets, people designing different kinds of fuels and metals... step by step till the V2 program, then the Soviet and US rocket scientists, culminating centuries of science. It was one small step at a time. That's how I expect it to be with fusion. Unfortunately, today's politicos can't think anywhere near that long in advance. That lab probably made the progress they did because of their ties to military projects: Sadly, the builders of "giant freakin' laser beams" are more more politically acceptable to fund than those working on alternative energy.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
13. This may or may not be true
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 01:27 PM
Mar 2012

I’m pulling for the folks at EMC2, a rather small company, working a different sort of nuclear fusion.

Most research funding for this project has come from the US Navy. (A pittance compared to funding for “giant freakin' laser beams” but, I don’t know that more money would necessarily make EMC2’s work go faster.) See The Mythical Man Month

Dead_Parrot

(14,478 posts)
11. Just to be pedantic....
Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:03 PM
Mar 2012

...you've got 6 and 7 the wrong way around - The big bang was a) the ultimate free lunch, and b) the precursor to all fusion energy.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
14. Well, although it was raised humorously
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 01:37 PM
Mar 2012

There is a serious point there.

What drove “The Big Bang?”

Is that power source available to us, today, in a more modest/usable form? (Perhaps an “[font size=1]itty-bitty-bang?[/font]”)

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
15. We could make some money off it...
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:31 PM
Mar 2012

I think I read somewhere that the universe is expanding at an increasing rate. Now I'll wind the end this rope to this turbine, you go tie the other end around Andromeda, and...

Seriously though, that's true. If they could harness that it would be the biggest thing. Until then, it could seed some cool scifi:

In the year 5269438:

Mister president, the reports are true. We are approaching peak universal expansion. If we continue to use dark energy at this rate, the expansion of the universe will be reversed, and it will collapse back into a singularity, ending all things as we know it.

Mister president: Now I can't tell that to these big expansion boys down in Texas, it will be the end of me politically and think of the economy. Can't you possibly re-word those reports boys?

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
19. Seriously though
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 09:27 AM
Mar 2012

Where did all of that energy come from? First, we have all of this mass, then we have the fact that it has one heck of a lot of momentum… There's enough chemical energy, for stars to burn!

So, are we talking “Zero Point Energy”™ here?

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
28. My heuristic is simpler for identifying energy sources.
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 11:47 PM
Mar 2012

What can I look around me and see? Chemical (fossil/bio fuel) energy is turning my head, so that works. Thermal variations caused by the sun are driving the wind outside, so solar and wind works. Subtly, but all around me, radioactive decay is happening, so nuclear works. Stars are burning in the sky, as well as our sun, so fusion works. These are the things all around me.

But the phenomenon of the big bang? We'll call it Joe. Joe was pretty awesome, no doubt, but Joe has not been seen for 15 billion years. So should I be looking for Joe for a solution? Not unless he pops up around here in these times. So we're in a pretty theoretical plane talking about the big bang energy. Hell, even fusion is a huge step for us homo sapiens, but its a lot closer.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
29. Some say Joe is seen daily
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:42 AM
Mar 2012

(Please note, NASA article — copyright concerns are nil.)

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/

[font face=Times,Times New Roman,Serif][font size=5]Dark Energy, Dark Matter[/font]
[font size=3]In the early 1990's, one thing was fairly certain about the expansion of the Universe. It might have enough energy density to stop its expansion and recollapse, it might have so little energy density that it would never stop expanding, but gravity was certain to slow the expansion as time went on. Granted, the slowing had not been observed, but, theoretically, the Universe had to slow. The Universe is full of matter and the attractive force of gravity pulls all matter together. Then came 1998 and the Hubble Space Telescope (HST) observations of very distant supernovae that showed that, a long time ago, the Universe was actually expanding more slowly than it is today. So the expansion of the Universe has not been slowing due to gravity, as everyone thought, it has been accelerating. No one expected this, no one knew how to explain it. But something was causing it.

Eventually theorists came up with three sorts of explanations. Maybe it was a result of a long-discarded version of Einstein's theory of gravity, one that contained what was called a "cosmological constant." Maybe there was some strange kind of energy-fluid that filled space. Maybe there is something wrong with Einstein's theory of gravity and a new theory could include some kind of field that creates this cosmic acceleration. Theorists still don't know what the correct explanation is, but they have given the solution a name. It is called dark energy.[/font]

[font size=4]What Is Dark Energy?[/font]
[font size=3]More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the Universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 70% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 25%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe.

One explanation for dark energy is that it is a property of space. Albert Einstein was the first person to realize that empty space is not nothing. Space has amazing properties, many of which are just beginning to be understood. The first property that Einstein discovered is that it is possible for more space to come into existence. Then one version of Einstein's gravity theory, the version that contains a cosmological constant, makes a second prediction: "empty space" can possess its own energy. Because this energy is a property of space itself, it would not be diluted as space expands. As more space comes into existence, more of this energy-of-space would appear. As a result, this form of energy would cause the Universe to expand faster and faster. Unfortunately, no one understands why the cosmological constant should even be there, much less why it would have exactly the right value to cause the observed acceleration of the Universe.

Another explanation for how space acquires energy comes from the quantum theory of matter. In this theory, "empty space" is actually full of temporary ("virtual&quot particles that continually form and then disappear. But when physicists tried to calculate how much energy this would give empty space, the answer came out wrong - wrong by a lot. The number came out 10[small]120[/small] times too big. That's a 1 with 120 zeros after it. It's hard to get an answer that bad. So the mystery continues.

Another explanation for dark energy is that it is a new kind of dynamical energy fluid or field, something that fills all of space but something whose effect on the expansion of the Universe is the opposite of that of matter and normal energy. Some theorists have named this "quintessence," after the fifth element of the Greek philosophers. But, if quintessence is the answer, we still don't know what it is like, what it interacts with, or why it exists. So the mystery continues.

A last possibility is that Einstein's theory of gravity is not correct. That would not only affect the expansion of the Universe, but it would also affect the way that normal matter in galaxies and clusters of galaxies behaved. This fact would provide a way to decide if the solution to the dark energy problem is a new gravity theory or not: we could observe how galaxies come together in clusters. But if it does turn out that a new theory of gravity is needed, what kind of theory would it be? How could it correctly describe the motion of the bodies in the Solar System, as Einstein's theory is known to do, and still give us the different prediction for the Universe that we need? There are candidate theories, but none are compelling. So the mystery continues.

The thing that is needed to decide between dark energy possibilities - a property of space, a new dynamic fluid, or a new theory of gravity - is more data, better data.

…[/font][/font]

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
5. NIF has something to do with
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 06:22 PM
Mar 2012

cheap practical generation of electricity?

Please.

Like the ITER, more and more researchers are doubting that Tokamaks will ever lead to anything practical as far as generation is concerned.

The Holy Grail is Proton Boron 11 fusion, aneutronic.

PamW

(1,825 posts)
18. Unfortunately....
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:21 AM
Mar 2012

Unfortunately, if you create a proton / boron-11 plasma; which is the only way you get proton / boron-11 fusion; the rate of energy loss due to bremsstrahlung radiating from such a plasma is 1.74 times the rate of energy generation due to the proton / boron-11 fusion. [ That's because the reaction rate for the aneutronic proton / boron-11 fusion is relatively low by nuclear reaction standards ].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneutronic_fusion

For the p–11B reaction, some calculations indicate that the bremsstrahlung power will be at least 1.74 times larger than the fusion power.

As explained in the above URL; attempting to suppress the bremsstrahlung results in radiation loses that are even worse from other mechanisms.

So overall; proton / boron-11 fusion could really be considered to be "endoergic" instead of "exoergeric"; that is it's an energy sink instead of an energy source.

It's like favoring pushing water uphill as your preferred energy source.

PamW

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
30. Some calculations, like Todd Riders work,
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 05:12 PM
Mar 2012

which makes many assumptions that do not describe a Polywell. Like a 50-50 Proton Boron11 mix. Bremm occurs when you have dense electrons that are also energetic, since this condition is not found in Polywell you'll have to find another argument.

3 companies are working on P-b11 fusion, EMC2, Tri Alpha, and Focus Fusion. EMC2, Tri Alpha are in fact funded by the Navy.


some calculations do, some calculations dont

The wiki you cite doesnt even provide a link to the statement you cite, which should be a clue as to the veracity of that wiki entry.

freethought

(2,457 posts)
6. Has anyone read this thread?
Sat Mar 24, 2012, 07:11 PM
Mar 2012

Last edited Sun Mar 25, 2012, 01:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Nuclear fusion simulation shows high-gain energy output


I know it's only a simulation programed onto computers. I am also aware that it could fail miserably if brought to a real world test.
However, I read article after article, here and elsewhere that seem to indicate these small incremental steps that seem to be taking us closer and closer to making fusion energy viable. I'm no physicist or an engineer but I do believe if you want to accomplish something quite difficult you don't accomplish it by doing nothing. I am hoping that they can still get funding. I am gonna keep fingers crossed.
 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
20. At this point solutions that can't be localized aren't helpful.
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 09:52 AM
Mar 2012

It would have been very cool to have this technology 40 years ago, but the high-growth, high-energy period of the human ascent is now over. Useful solutions going forward must not be centralized, and they must support small-scale, localized applications in regions that don't have access to large amounts of money or technology.

If somebody can come up with maintenance-free cold fusion that provides direct electrical generation from a small apparatus, then fine. But this is the sort of technology whose time has passed.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
22. I don’t see that…
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 10:39 AM
Mar 2012

Let’s take the example of New York City, it’s a large urban area, with a preexisting power grid.

A significant portion of its electricity currently comes from a large, aging nuclear fission plant. OK, so let’s say we have a large nuclear fusion plant we can replace it with… this seems like a good thing™ to me.

Look to Southern Illinois:
http://www.coalage.com/index.php/news/news/1276-prairie-state-energy-campus-starup-just-a-few-months-away.html

[font face=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][font size=5]Prairie State Energy Campus Starup Just a Few Months Away[/font]

Thursday, 25 August 2011 09:57

[font size=3]The countdown is under way for the partial startup in December of Prairie State Energy Campus, a 1,600-megawatt mine-mouth complex in southwestern Illinois, the brainchild of Peabody Energy Corp. a decade ago.

Already, the new Lively Grove underground mine is producing some of the 6.3 million tons of high-sulfur coal that will be burned annually in the nearby supercritical power plant. Coal is being stockpiled in preparation for the commercial operation of 800-megawatt Unit 1. The twin second unit is scheduled to go on line next summer, perhaps sooner. Drawing upon a reserve base of 200 million tons, the mine has a projected life of 30 years.



The plant will generate enough electricity to serve some 2.5 million families in five states and produce about $785 million in annual economic benefits for Illinois, an Illinois Basin state whose coal production is on the upswing after two decades of decline and stagnation following Congressional passage of the Clean Air Act Amendments in 1990.

Rising from the surrounding countryside, Prairie State’s sheer size is impressive. It boasts a 700-foot-tall stack, 70 ft higher than the Gateway Arch in St. Louis, about 40 miles away.

…[/font][/font]


Clearly, the electrical infrastructure is in place to support a large fusion facility. I think that taking that coal plant off-line and providing power to those 2.5 million families from a centralized fusion plant would be desirable.

The LIFE concept calls for doing just this sort of thing.

https://life.llnl.gov/delivering_life/index.php
[font face=Times, Times New Roman, Serif][font size=3]…

The timeliness requirements for commercial delivery are compelling. Rollout from the 2030s would remove 90 to 140 gigatons of CO[font size="1"]2[/font]-equivalent carbon emissions by the end of the century (assuming U.S. coal plants are displaced and the doubling time for roll-out is between 5 and 10 years). Delaying rollout by just 10 years removes 30 to 35% of the carbon emission avoidance, which at $100/megaton translates to a net present value of $140 to $260 billion dollars. For inertial fusion energy to achieve its full potential in solving our energy/climate challenges, a focused delivery program is urgently needed.


…[/font][/font]

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
23. I know you don't.
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 10:56 AM
Mar 2012

We have completely different understandings of what's going on in the world. I'm proposing that there is another way to look at huge, high-tech, centralized energy projects.

Most people don't share my point of view. Yet.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
24. I also feel that decentralized power is useful
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 11:35 AM
Mar 2012

However, rolling out relatively small numbers of large plants “cookie-cutter style,” to replace existing generating plants seems to be more efficient (from a societal viewpoint) than attempting to displace them with zillions of smaller “one-off” facilities.

By-all-means, those who can (and wish to) create home-sized, block-sized, and neighborhood-sized shared facilities, are encouraged to do so. However, that roll-out doesn’t seem to be happening fast enough.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
25. The underlying assumption of your position
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 11:56 AM
Mar 2012

The underlying assumption of your position is that society will keep more or less its current arrangement in the near and intermediate terms. If that assumption holds, your position will have merit.

I don't share that assumption any more. I think in both the near term and intermediate term we are going to see a widespread, involuntary localization along with a drastic reduction in the money and infrastructure required to support centralized energy systems. This has already happened in Detroit, and the situation will become more common as time goes on - both across the USA and throughout the developed world.

In a social setting that has not much in the way of public schools, ambulances, food distribution or money, the mere idea of fusion power is a tragic conceit. Again, this is apparently the situation in Detroit today - and if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere in the USA.

OKIsItJustMe

(19,938 posts)
26. I’m hoping to avoid (or soften) the blow of that change
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:00 PM
Mar 2012

At this point, about half of humanity lives in urban areas.

I grew up in a “small town” and prefer life in a small town. I would like to see somewhat of a “small town renaissance.” However, I don’t believe it is realistic to expect to see that sort of societal revolution without a lot of pain.

Urban areas tend to be more space and energy efficient.

 

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)
27. Me too.
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 12:53 PM
Mar 2012

We're just going about it differently. I know we'll keep working on solutions of all sorts at all scales, but where we choose to put our support is a very personal preference. I think "Too big to avoid failure" applies to energy systems as well as banks, and in general large systems of all sorts tend to make ecological and social problems worse. This is similar to E.F. Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful" perspective.

Regarding cities, they may be more space and energy efficient, but according to a paper by William Rees (PDF) they have bigger ecological footprints when imported carrying capacity and exported ecological degradation are taken into account. Cities are weath concentrators, and more average wealth means larger ecological footprints, when both the local and remote footprints are counted.

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