Ecuador: Mouse That Roars

[MinM]

@SpyTalker: SpyTalk: #Snowden and #Ecuador: The Mouse is Roaring http://spytalkblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/snowden-and-ecuador-mouse-is-roaring.html?spref=tw …

https://twitter.com/SpyTalker/status/349365514444865536

The tiny Andrean nation stands up to the US with impunity

Washington's options for punishing tiny Ecuador for sheltering fugitive NSA leaker Edward Snowden are few, experts say, and using them would backfire internationally.

The range of possible US moves is pretty narrow, said Peter Eisner, a former correspondent for The Associated Press and Newsday in Latin America and co-author of former Panamanian strongman Manuel Noriega's memoirs.

"They could decrease the size of the embassy staff, maybe cancel educational and cultural stuff," but not much else, Eisner said.

US-Ecuador relations are already bruised from the sanctuary Quito's London embassy has provided WikiLeaks leader Julian Assange...

http://www.andmagazine.com/content/phoenix/13057.html

[Demeter]

1. They could apologize to the world, destroy the spy machines

free the whistleblowers and compensate them, and then put themselves under house arrest for being such stupid fascists.

Or, they could wait around, living on the edge, until We the People do it to them.

Or worse, the rest of the world, with China and Russia aligned together.

[railsback]

2. Small minded

Ecuador has been begging the U.S. to renew the ATPDEA, due to expire July 31. They've also been trying to negotiate a free trade agreement with the U.S., knowing full well Columbia's free trade pact is sucking revenue away from them. Correa knows Ecuador can't survive on oil revenues alone (see: Venezuela), and is bucking a decades old trend of not signing any trade pacts with foreign nations. I mean, do we really give a shit about some ex-patriots hanging out in Ecuador? Pftt. The U.S. doesn't need Ecuador. Ecuador NEEDS the U.S.

[Socialistlemur]

4. Wrong

Ecuador is important for a much different reason. Correa. Now that Chavez is dead there is a struggle between the radical autocracies (Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua), versus pragmatic leftists (Brazil, Peru, Uruguay). Argentina is a political shambles because Cristina Fernandez isn't really fit to rule, and the country is becoming chaotic with many signs of the rise of populist fascism. I think they'll have their typical civil war if they keep going this way. So the key turning points are Ecuador and Mexico.

USA foreign policy has historically been flawed. I have such a radical interpretation about what's really going on inside the government I won't even discuss it. Lets just say USA foreign policy isn't designed to further the people's needs and it's more a servant of powerful special interests. It's so bad, it's not even viable to discuss it with Americans, they are too far brainwashed and primed to reject arguments.

So...the interesting issue is that Obama is a very smart man, and he realizes he has to behave in a certain way or they'll kill him. The intricate web of interests is too embedded in the CIA, FBI, NSA, Pentagon, and the Secret Service for a president to step out of their line too far and survive.

So I think right now they are mouthing off and sounding stupid to please a constituency they have to calm down. Meanwhile they'll keep working with Ecuador to turn trade into a weapon to pry Correa from the need to have Venezuelan economic help. Correa is a very smart guy and he also realizes Chavez ruined Venezuela, he never received as much as say Cuba, but he also knows that source dried up and today Venezuela is so poorly regarded it doesn't even dare issue bonds in the international market.

So what does Correa want? Mostly to have a means to improve the economy so he can stay on as president. And the USA will give him the trade advantages if they are smart. The USA does need to get its thinking cap on and encourage Ecuador to produce biofuels because it doesnt have that much oil, and also to ease the flow of private investment for light industry. The question is whether the USA, same as always, will shoot itself in the foot to please the imperial lobbies. Time will tell.

[Peace Patriot]

6. "...Chavez ruined Venezuela..."?

"...Correa is a very smart guy and he also realizes Chavez ruined Venezuela..." --Socialistlemur

-----------------

Last year, Venezuelans rated their own country FIFTH IN THE WORLD, in the Gallup Well-being poll, on their own sense of well-being and future prospects. They re-elected Chavez for a third term by a hefty margin, and just after doing that, threw out most of the rightwing governors in favor of pro-Chavez socialists in the by-election--all in an election system that Jimmy Carter recently described as "the best in the world."

So, you're saying that Correa, being "a very smart guy," thinks Venezuelans are insane? stupid peasants? can't comprehend their own misery?

Those are pretty dumb ideas and if Correa believes them, as you say, he's a pretty dumb guy. But there is not a scrap of evidence anywhere that Correa believes that "Chavez ruined Venezuela." Indeed, the opposite is true. Venezuelans have never had it so good. That is WHY Venezuelans have voted for chavistas time and again and rated their own country FIFTH IN THE WORLD on their well-being and future prospects!

People who rely on the corporate 'news' wouldn't know that Venezuelans have never had it so good, but Venezuelans know it and have, time and again, defeated the corporate 'news' moguls and those whom they serve, in order for the benefits of the Chavez government to continue.

Among them...

--Chavez re-negotiated the oil contracts to change the formula of 90% profit to the likes of Exxon Mobil and 10% profit to Venezuelans, to 50-50 profit sharing, and invested the new Venezuelan revenues in education, health care, pensions for small business people, the elderly poor and others, housing construction, land reform and other public good projects.

--Under Chavez, economic growth has never been higher (a sizzling economic growth rate of 10% for five straight years, 2003 to 2008, all of this in the private sector not including oil, and it's back up to 5+% now).

--Under Chavez, Venezuela's inflation rate has never been LOWER. Prior rightwing/neo-liberal governments produced inflation up to 99% (!) with no benefit to the poor majority!

--The UN Economic Commission for Latin America and the Caribbean recently designated Venezuela "THE most equal country in Latin America" on income distribution.

--The Chavez government cut poverty IN HALF and extreme poverty by over 70%!

--The Chavez government hugely expanded educational opportunity and has provided free health to the poor including health care to many groups and regions that never had ANY health care before.

--With the Chavez government, public participation and voter turnouts have never been higher--ordinary people feel included, previously excluded groups feel included, neglected communities feel empowered and democracy has flourished. That is why Lula da Silva, president of Brazil, said, of Chavez, "They can invent all kinds of things to criticize Chavez but not on democracy!"

--The Chavez government furthermore has led the region in a political revolution for social justice, peace and Latin American independence.

Correa, being "a very smart guy," realizes all of the above, and realizes that the corporate 'news' moguls LIE ABOUT leftist-created prosperity and social progress--they all do it to him, too--and that is why he is one of the biggest supporters of the Bolivarian Revolution. He is the leader of the Bolivarian Revolution in Ecuador, where similar social justice and independence policies are being pursued.

You are quite wrong on this point, as on many others. And as for the following statement of yours...

"Now that Chavez is dead there is a struggle between the radical autocracies (Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua), versus pragmatic leftists (Brazil, Peru, Uruguay)."

...all I can say is, IN YOUR DREAMS. There is NO such "struggle." The CIA wants there to be a "struggle" among Latin American leftist governments, and has done everything it can to induce it. But you know what? These new leaders of Latin America are, indeed, very smart men and women, and they are having NONE OF IT. They understand very well that united they stand and divided they fall. That has been the foundation of their success--their electoral success, their success at producing prosperity and sharing prosperity, and their success at creating a multi-lateral world, on the international political scene, and a level playing field as to investment in their countries' rich resources.

YOUR division of LatAm countries into "radical autocracies" versus "pragmatic leftists" simply doesn't exist, except in the dreams and schemes of those who serve U.S. transglobal corporate/bankster/war profiteer interests. Venezuela and Nicaragua are DEMOCRACIES, in truth far better democracies than our own. And their governments are very closely allied with the governments of Brazil and Uruguay. Peru only recently elected a leftist government which is saddled with a U.S./Bush Junta-designed "free trade for the rich" agreement, and thus is a less strong ally on social justice and LatAm independence. Brazil is going to go further to the left after these recent demonstrations by the poor. And Chile is going to elect a socialist as president this year, who, in her prior term, was a key leader of the LatAm UNITY movement. And ALL LatAm governments are defenders of Cuba, which has its own entirely unique history which I won't go into here (--its position vis a vis the U.S. and in the world is too complex), except to say that the Cuban government's devotion to social justice, to peaceful change and to LatAm independence have inspired these good goals throughout the region, and it is a huge mistake--it is simply NOT TRUE--to say that Venezuela's and Nicaragua's governments are "radical autocracies." They are NOT. They are DEMOCRATIC examples of social justice, much like our own "New Deal" here--TRUE democracy which includes economic FAIRNESS.

You have entirely misread diversity as "struggle against." That is a wish, not a reality. The reality is that, diverse as they are, Latin American countries passionately desire independence from the U.S., with the many new leftist governments leading this awesome movement, in full awareness of U.S. "divide and conquer" tactics and using many counter-tactics to pull everybody together.

Even rightwing governments in U.S. client states have to pay lip service to LatAm independence. But it is the leftist leaders who have taken it seriously and have created new institutions specifically designed to exclude the U.S. and to bolster regional prosperity, independence and social justice. It is the leftist leaders who have virtually evicted the World Bank/IMF (those dastardly exploiters) from the region. It is the leftist leaders who led the creation of Unasur (all-South American alternative to the U.S.-dominated OAS) and CELAC (all Latin American alternative to the OAS), as well as the Bank of the South and independent trade groups, such as Mercosur and ALBA. It is the leftist countries that are prospering and spreading the wealth, and they are very, very aware that their inter-dependence, their having each other's backs, their trade policies (preferring "south-south" trade), and their new sense of unity and cooperation, are ESSENTIAL to their individual success as countries, and that this--their unprecedented UNITY--is an historic moment and a true revolution in the western hemisphere.

The U.S. is floundering around--was doing so under Bush, is now doing so under Obama--with crude coup d'etats (Honduras, Paraguay), crude use of the corrupt, murderous, failed U.S. "war on drugs" for Pentagon expansion in U.S. client states, crude USAID funding/"training" of rightwing/fascist causes and plotters, crude propaganda against leftist leaders (including Correa in Ecuador) infused into compliant corporate 'news' trumpets and crude shilling for the likes of Exxon Mobil, Drummond Coal, Chiquita and other malevolent corporations.

It is laughable to assert that Correa doesn't know this. He knows very well that he is in a category with Chavez, Maduro, Ortega and others, TO BE OVERTHROWN if possible, and "divided and conquered" if possible, in the eyes of the schemers in Washington DC. And it is laughable to assert that Dilma Rousseff, president of Brazil, doesn't know this--she was horribly tortured by U.S. -supported fascists when she was young--and that Michele Batchelet (who will be elected president of Chile this year) doesn't know this--her father was horribly tortured and murdered by U.S.-supported fascists and she was forced to flee Chile when she was young. It is laughable to assert that Jose Mujica, president of Uruguay, doesn't know this. He, too, was imprisoned and tortured by U.S.-supported fascists. It is laughable to assert that Evo Morales doesn't know this. He was kidnapped and beaten up DEA-connected police for union organizing. It is laughable to assert that Lula da Silva--Latin America's most revered leader, former president of Brazil and Rousseff's mentor--doesn't know this. He, too, was imprisoned for union organizing by U.S.-backed fascists, and he, along with Chavez and the Kirchners in Argentina were the key leaders--the pioneers--of the awesome revolt against U.S. dictation in its early stages in the mid-2000s.

These are the new leaders of Latin America. They have been through the fire of U.S. torture, murder and exploitation. And their singular goal is to END U.S. domination of Latin America and create an autonomous region with ITS OWN policies of social justice, peace and local and international trade. And they know--because they are "smart people"--that every one of them is a U.S. target.

[Judi Lynn]

7. Thank goodness you found a way to address that post. It looked hopeless to me.

Some things look so overwhelmingly bent it seems too huge a job to try to straighten them out.

It was so preposterous, so wildly bent, it didn't seem possible to approach it but you did it admirably.

You have taken the time to know about the history of these countries, and their leaders and their interrelatedness, and what it means. You are living proof you can't do anything half-assed and not take the initiative to look beyond the corporate news. You have done the research, you've studied it, and always looked for answers to obvious misinformation, and you've certainly got the intelligence to know when you've read bogus snarf from the propaganda mills.

The strong leftist leaders have come so far in such a small span in time, they've worked so hard to overcome the horrendous disadvantage the olgiarchs created for their countries.

And they all are targets, and they know it, just as you said. Courageous beyond belief.

[Socialistlemur]

8. Your comments are outdated

This is mid 2013. Chavez ruined Venezuela but the 2012 elections and his terminal cancer led him to do a lot worse...in his efforts to pump the economy and create that feeling of well being he wanted the people to have he made a bunch of bad moves. I'm not going to go into the details with you here but it's clear to those who do understand what I write that Maduro inherited a really complex mess, including really high inflation, high debt, overvalued currency, scarcity of food and declining oil production.

Regarding the ongoing conflict, it may be something you don't get, but right now Cuba and Venezuela are seen as a toxic threat by most nations. But it seems their policy is to wave from a distance and get aligned with USA trade deals. Or as Colombia did get cozy with NATO. The US policy seems to simply lure them with trade. And to just sit and wait for Venezuela to start bond defaults. This will kill their credit and they will have no exit, nor will they have cash to finance trouble elsewhere....

[Peace Patriot]

11. Your tag is very revealing: "Reality is a lie."

My comments are not "outdated." They are fact-based reality, but, like the rightwing in general, you can't take reality.

For instance: "...his efforts to pump the economy and create that feeling of well being...".

It's more than a mere "feeling" when you have health care for the first time in your life; when you can put shoes on your children's feet so they can go to school; when you can feed them; when you can get credit for your small business when credit was never available to you before; when you are being trained for upward mobility in your chosen line of work, though you are poor and never had a chance before; when you are given a subsidy to do so, so you can feed your kids and have a decent life while you train; when you can go to college, the first in your family, totally barred to you before by poverty and hopelessness; when you can buy your first car, never possible before because your pay was too low; when you can have a new house or apartment, made affordable for the poor by the government, using the commonly owned resource of all of the people--Venezuela's massive oil supply.

These are not FEELINGS. These are REALITIES.

It is the duty of a good government to "pump the economy" so that all may prosper. I don't know why you denigrate it. It's basic Keynesianism. What DOESN'T work is "austerity" for the poor while the rich get richer.

Chavez utterly changed that around--from "austerity" for the poor while the rich got richer TO the only economy that works--a Keynesian economy, a "New Deal" economy.

This is not a "feeling." It is money in the pockets for the poor, who, of necessity, spend it, thus creating the goods and services that they require.

"...right now Cuba and Venezuela are seen as a toxic threat by most nations."

Evidence? Name one Latin American leader who has said that Cuba and Venezuela are "a toxic threat." Name one piece of evidence that they even think it. Not even U.S. client states have that view. Colombia's new president immediately made peace with Venezuela (after Bush's mafia boss, Alvaro Uribe, was yanked from the stage) and sought and obtained reopening of trade with Venezuela, which is flourishing. Where is your evidence? The evidence is exactly the opposite--Chavez's funeral was attended by virtually every head of state in Latin America! All have supported Maduro!

As for Cuba, all of Latin America supports the Cuban government's legitimacy; much of Latin America emulates Cuba on social justice issues; and Colombia--a U.S. client state--chose Cuba as the site for its government's talks with the FARC guerrillas. No "toxic threat" there--just another LatAm country stomped on by the U.S.--the most stomped on of all, until the Cuban revolution, and then stomped on in every way possible without success. Exploding cigars. Exploding airliners. You name it. And you don't think Latin Americans have NOTICED this? It's only IN YOUR DREAMS that "most" Latin American countries see Venezuela and Cuba as "a toxic threat."

Who've you been talking to--the Honduran coup generals? Yup, one of them said that the purpose of their coup was "to prevent communism from Venezuela reaching the United States" (--quoted in a report on the coup by the Zelaya government-in-exile). THEY consider "communism" to be "toxic; THEY can't tell the difference between a communist economy and a justice-oriented, mixed, capitalist/socialist economy--but then, they get their rightwing death squads to whack off the heads of leftist protestors and leave their headless bodies in the road as an "example" to all, and shoot teachers in the head in front of their students, and have murdered more journalists than Donald Rumsfeld. Are we really going to agree with them about what is "toxic"?

"...he (Chavez) made a bunch of bad moves. I'm not going to go into the details with you here but it's clear to those who do understand what I write...". (my emphasis)

No facts, again. You are not going to "go into the details." Your views are just opinion--and very rightwing opinion at that, and very propagandistic, and evidently second-hand opinion. The corporate so-called 'news' media has NEVER acknowledged Venezuela's amazing prosperity, poverty reduction, social progress and high rates of public participation. They have NEVER even hinted at an explanation for why Chavez was so popular nor mentioned any of the Chavez government's extraordinary successes. They badmouthed Chavez from the beginning--in blatant disregard of the facts--and they are bad-mouthing his successor, in the hopes that Chavez's death was the death of Venezuela's "New Deal." They DON'T WANT any "New Deals" around, that people here or in Europe might notice, and might act accordingly and start electing true, majoritarian, leftist governments themselves!

The U.S.-supported rightwing coup d'etat in Honduras was intended to prevent DEMOCRACY from Venezuela reaching the United States. Not "communism." Democracy--true democracy, which includes economic FAIRNESS. That is not "toxic." In fact, it has caught on all over South America and into Central America. This is a leftist democracy revolution, which has utterly changed the dynamics of the western hemisphere, and was led by the Chavez government in Venezuela.

That is WHY the corporate media never provided any reality about Chavez and Venezuela. That is WHY they are doing their damnedest now to INDUCE panic and disorder in Venezuela, in concert with the CIA. And you are just echoing all their "talking points." It is ludicrous. They have said the SAME things about Chavez all along, as they are saying about Maduro now.

And what the corporate media and the CIA have come against, time and again, are, a) the SMART Venezuelan voters, who are immune to their propaganda, and the smart voters in the many other LatAm countries blest with leftist governments; and, b) UNITY among these many new leftist leaders, who know all the U.S. tricks and horrors.

You are trying to MAKE something true that is not true, by repeating it. That is called the "Big Lie." Venezuela's falling apart. Venezuela is "ruined." Deja vu all over again!

[Judi Lynn]

3. South America closed ranks around Ecuador when Colombia bombed it,

using U.S. bombs, and technology, only a few years ago. Completely, steadfastly supportive of Rafael Correa and his reaction.

There's no way more aggression against Ecuador would go over any better now.

[Socialistlemur]

9. Colombia dropped one laser guided bomb in Ecuador.

The bomb struck a FARC camp a few km from the Colombia/Ecuador border. This allowed Colombian special forces to land and recover the Reyes hard drives. The huge wealth of information from this strike allowed them to cut FARC strength in half. There was no serious fallout and the USA isn't about to attack Ecuador. What the USA will do if they are smart is give Ecuador a good trade deal. There are forces trying to stop this because it would pry Ecuador from the Alba ranks. So if the USA is smart it'll pay a third country to take Snowden and warehouse him. This may sound crazy but I would get him to Iran.

[Judi Lynn]

10. Colombia was dead wrong to drop that bomb in another country. Period. n/t

[Socialistlemur]

12. Some thoughts about bomb drops in Ecuador....

I would agree it was wrong because it could have spread the war to Ecuador. At the same time it's clear the FARC has absolutely no problem establishing refuges near the border. I discussed the hard drive information because it does convey the pint that Raul Reyes set himself up as a really juicy target. It was as if he had smeared himself with fish guts and then dove in a shark tank.

[bemildred]

5. Well shit, now we have to invade.

[Zorro]

13. The US should demand Ecuador won't give Snowden asylum

if Ecuador wants to maintain preferential trade agreements.

[naaman fletcher]

14. Well

first of all I am all for Snowden and I hope someone grants him asylum. 2nd, I don't think the US has any intention of giving preferential trade agreements with Ecuador anyway.