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Sun Sep 16, 2012, 02:22 PM

Maybe the most disturbing video I have seen.



A. filmmakers Kate Davis, David Heilbroner and Franco Sacchi explore the lives of evangelical Christians who believe that Armageddon is imminent and that Israel will be the site of Jesus's second coming. The film follows evangelicals as they prepare for the apocalypse and examines how their beliefs and craving for destruction have influenced the U.S. government's relationships with Israel and Muslim majority countries.

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Reply Maybe the most disturbing video I have seen. (Original post)
Richard D Sep 2012 OP
Cleita Sep 2012 #1
me b zola Sep 2012 #2
valerief Sep 2012 #3
lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #4
southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #8
lumberjack_jeff Sep 2012 #10
southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #15
dixiegrrrrl Sep 2012 #16
southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #20
onecent Sep 2012 #18
southernyankeebelle Sep 2012 #19
Schema Thing Sep 2012 #25
Lint Head Sep 2012 #5
freshwest Sep 2012 #11
chuckstevens Sep 2012 #6
KT2000 Sep 2012 #7
freshwest Sep 2012 #12
KT2000 Sep 2012 #32
freshwest Sep 2012 #35
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #9
truth2power Sep 2012 #22
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #24
Schema Thing Sep 2012 #27
freshwest Sep 2012 #38
bigrob35 Sep 2012 #68
tkmorris Sep 2012 #69
truth2power Sep 2012 #70
truth2power Sep 2012 #71
zeemike Sep 2012 #13
benld74 Sep 2012 #14
Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2012 #17
truth2power Sep 2012 #21
Richard D Sep 2012 #28
Gabby Hayes Sep 2012 #46
AsahinaKimi Sep 2012 #64
TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #23
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #30
TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #31
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #33
TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #41
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #42
TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #43
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #44
TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #45
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #47
TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #48
Major Nikon Sep 2012 #49
TreasonousBastard Sep 2012 #63
enki23 Sep 2012 #36
ailsagirl Sep 2012 #26
progressoid Sep 2012 #29
patrice Sep 2012 #60
progressoid Sep 2012 #61
patrice Sep 2012 #62
Snarkoleptic Sep 2012 #34
b757pilot Sep 2012 #37
b757pilot Sep 2012 #39
gateley Sep 2012 #40
EnviroBat Sep 2012 #50
patrice Sep 2012 #51
patrice Sep 2012 #52
patrice Sep 2012 #53
Newsie Sep 2012 #54
mike_c Sep 2012 #55
Bette Noir Sep 2012 #56
patrice Sep 2012 #57
patrice Sep 2012 #58
patrice Sep 2012 #59
Iwillnevergiveup Sep 2012 #65
thatwhichisnt Sep 2012 #66
Douglas Carpenter Sep 2012 #67

Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 02:36 PM

1. They may be right about the end of biological life if

we don't start doing something about it, but they don't believe in that, do they?

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 02:46 PM

2. My mother used to call these people "holy rollers"

My devout catholic Republican mother. She would laugh at them, she taught me that if someone lead with the Jesus or God card that they were trying to relieve you of your money or were scamming for something--or they were just plain crazy.

I really miss her. Now I'm left with all the loonies and the zombie hoard is growing.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 02:50 PM

3. Jello for brains. nt

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 03:01 PM

4. Some Jehovas came to the house yesterday.

Wanting to talk about armageddon and how it is a good thing because "tears are washed away" or some shit.

Whatever, dude. I have a garden to harvest and firewood to collect.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 03:51 PM

8. Just offer them a beer or a glass of wine and pour yourself one. You will see them run not

 

walk away. You will never be bothered again. I don't believe in the rapture. They are playing on people's fears. How sad and they raise their children to believe in this crap. Know wonder this country is going to hell. The religious right has taken over the republican party and now we see where the war on women is coming from. There are no republicans left.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 04:48 PM

10. The guy was actually kind of nice.

I had my chevelle in the driveway preparing to hose the sawdust off, and we talked cars for 10 minutes or so (he has a convertible 442, apparently) once he realized his "the end of the world is deeply misunderstood" spiel wasn't getting any traction.

He also handed out a pamphlet about how neither political party is "looking out for women" and that the JW church is just the ticket in that regard.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 06:36 PM

15. We had a real nice JW come over to my house. I offered him a drink like a pepsi or tea

 

and he said no thanks and he started on his talk. I let him talk for about 10 mins. I finally told him I was happen in my own faith and there would be no way I would join in his church. My youngest sister got caught up with them and my parents were so upset. When she finally got it she left them. They love to talk the game. All these people that come door to door are always really nice. That is how they put their foot in the door.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 06:38 PM

16. well, darlin', I believe in rapture, but it doesn't have anything to do with religion.

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Response to dixiegrrrrl (Reply #16)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 07:01 PM

20. Well darlin' good for you. I not bothered by it.

 

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #8)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 06:50 PM

18. You are so right - My husband (before I knew him) had a friend that did JUST THIS. Told them

he would be MORE THAN HAPPY TO TALK TO THEM if they wanted to come in and share a beer with him,
(of which he already had an open one in his hand). We laughed about that for years....

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Response to onecent (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 06:59 PM

19. It is funny. Funnier was my mother-in-law that did that to a neighbor. He is a religious freak.

 

He wouldn't help fix this church because it wasn't his brand of church. He was a awful. He ran his wife down to nothing. Poor thing. He keep his wife back in time to the 50s. His own sister lived next door and never married. He took her property and would never let her drive. She was backward. His daughters hated him. Anyway my mother-in-law was alot older then him. His wife died about 8 months before my father-in-law died. He asked her to get married. She said no that she wasn't interested and then offered him a beer. He high tailed it out of there so fast. Good riddens. He wanted a wife slave and probably take her land. Greedy bastard. He made sure he got all the nice things and the women in his life got the shaft. What fools they were.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #4)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:03 PM

25. tears are washed away with the blood of billions of people


Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Armaggedon is coming any day now, and that only Jehovah's Witnesses will be left alive .

You do the math.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 03:11 PM

5. Organized religion has done their part in instilling the fear of death to control people for

the corporations that own our world. Theocratic corporate rule is the goal. Keep the people afraid and tell them a fable that will save them then propagandize the lie that we are told by God to consume the earth and you can keep the environmentalist at bay. Most Christian religions condemn environmentalism as "earth worship" and consider the people who do that as associating with witches and sorcerers. This has been perpetrated for so long on this earth that even intelligent people are deceived.

I am not an atheist. I think that spiritual aspects of life have become a tool of subjugation use by the powerful. The awe that I experience every day when I take a breath, see a beautiful sunset or hug my children tells me there is something more to life. We only know and feel within ourselves what we believe and religion to me is personal. When I die no one will come to me and say,"Hey, can I die with you?"

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Response to Lint Head (Reply #5)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:01 PM

11. +1

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 03:37 PM

6. Feeling Guilt. NOT!

Occasionally, I feel this guilt for not attending church or being active in organized religion. Then I see stories like this and I'm very OK with my own spirituality, following the golden rule toward my fellow man, and staying the hell away from established churches!

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 03:50 PM

7. their craving for destruction

has infiltrated government at all levels.
Our county commissioner told me that when they are discussing environmental issues - such as hazardous sites, the religious nuts could care less about public health.
They WANT the worst to happen because it will prove them right, in their sick minds.

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Response to KT2000 (Reply #7)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:04 PM

12. Self-fulfilling prophecies also give a reason to dehumanize other humans and live only for yourself.

Which brings them right back in opposition to the words of Jesus.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #12)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 10:02 PM

32. Oooh - good point

and one I will be repeating because it is so true.

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Response to KT2000 (Reply #32)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:21 PM

35. It struck me listening to a very well off Christian friend who has been moaning about money...

And more money than I would ever need, has to have all material goods of 'the highest quality.'

Nothing can do for anyone or anything but wait for the Second Coming. Gotta resist taxes, hold onto to everything for me and mine, because thing are going to get bad. Fearmongering is the perfect excuse for avarice.

See how that works?

When people are confronted with their own demise, some want to give everything away. Some want to hold onto so tight, as if they won't die at all.

The Left Behind crowd is the worst, IMO. In practical matters, such as the environment, they care nothing for the Earth. Because they say they are 'not to love the Earth or anything in it.'

So what does it matter if all other life forms are swept away, it was gonna happen anyway. The fact that they could have saved some lives by their side or elsewhere, meh, not their fault.

Sort of like cynicisim and not voting. 'See, it was all going to fail, anyway. I was smart and didn't put my heart out there to be hurt, I stood back and saved my energy. And now, I'm right!'

People are wonderful at rationalizing things.


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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 04:35 PM

9. It's not as if this rhetoric is new

Seventh day adventists and Jehovah's witnesses both built their entire denominations around this nonsense. Several fanatical christian militia groups have built private arsenals preparing for the end times as did David Koresh. There's no nut like a religious nut. Just add guns and the fun really starts.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #9)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 08:03 PM

22. Jehovah's Witnesses have some pretty strange interpretations of the bible IMO, but they are NOT

a part of this nutcase crowd. They don't involve themselves in politics and they don't PUSH their religion on other people. I have never known any JW to have that self-entitled, condescending, nasty attitude that you see in the people portrayed in this film.

Occasionally, a couple of JW's will go door to door in my neighborhood (there's a Kingdom Hall in a nearby community). I talk with them and always tell them that their beliefs are "not my path". And they're ok with that. I don't denigrate their beliefs.

I wish people would stop lumping JW's in with these whack-jobs looking for ways to blow up the temple mount with an A-Bomb and talking (as that woman in the film who converted her husband) about blood running as high as a horse's neck during the tribulation and smiling as she says it. <shudder>

I don't know enough about Seventh Day Adventists to speak to that part of your post.

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Response to truth2power (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 08:29 PM

24. I'm not sure what a normal interpretation of the bible would even look like

And while they may not be the same variety of nut portrayed in the video, all of the world's major religions and most of the minor ones are chock full of nuttiness. I only included them as an example in this case because their central beliefs revolve around the end times some think is described in the book of Revelations. As far as JW's go, yes most of them are relatively harmless to those outside their sect, but they are about par with Mormons as far as cult-like behavior goes with many similar attributes designed to discourage dissent and free thought.

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Response to truth2power (Reply #22)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:19 PM

27. I was raised as one.


Jehovah's Witnesses are not particularly dangerous to you or society at large, but they are very much a danger to anyone who gives their life over to them.


And they absolutely believe in "blood running as high as a horse's neck during the tribulation" and they believe that that event is due any-day-now, and they further believe that if you do not believe as they do, your blood is going to be part of that sea of blood. Every Jehovah's Witness kid has seen an adult smile as they talk about the world being violently destroyed.

They literally take dibs on your house as they go from door to door. They do it slightly in jest, as in "well I'm getting this house after armageddon...", but they really do believe your house is going to be available soon enough.


And should their master's message ever turn towards more direct action, you can bet that plenty of JW's would do exactly as told. That said, it's not likely their doctrine of political abstinence will change anytime soon.

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Response to Schema Thing (Reply #27)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:29 PM

38. I saw them as relatively benign until that one part you mentioned here, was explained to me.

They literally take dibs on your house as they go from door to door. They do it slightly in jest, as in "well I'm getting this house after armageddon...", but they really do believe your house is going to be available soon enough.

I was living out in the country, in an area where virtually no people lived. No gas or food or anything for over 30 miles or more. Yet a few of them would drive down the deserted roads to knock on the doors.

One day I asked them, leaning against my truck in the driveway why they drove from the small town about 35 south into our little area of large ranches. Pretty desolate, empty area. I had a bit of acreage and they'd come in through the cattle gate which was open at that time of year, and knock.

I was grossed out by what they said, which was just what you said. They said they were like, inspecting the properties they were going to get. I found it ghoulish. They intended us all to be swept away and they enjoyed planning what to do with all our places.

There is a genocidal streak in all these religions.

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Response to truth2power (Reply #22)

Thu Sep 20, 2012, 02:41 PM

68. concurring

i agree with you truth2power. i grew up as a Jehovah's Witness and people just didn't like them because of their anti non political/government stance. You never heard nor hear about a JW involved in any kind of scandals or cover ups(hint hint). in these days and times most people are either forced or tricked into taking sides. politically or any other way. Jehovah's Witnesses have a neutral stance on these topics and subjects so therefore they are disliked by many.

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Response to bigrob35 (Reply #68)

Thu Sep 20, 2012, 03:41 PM

69. There are a LOT of reasons people don't like JW

Being politically neutral is not high on the list, believe me.

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Response to bigrob35 (Reply #68)

Mon Sep 24, 2012, 05:33 AM

70. Thank you, bigrob. When I was in high school (many, many years ago)

one of my classmates was a JW. He was a good person and never tried to bash people over the head with his religion.

One summer, he came to our house and I and a few of my friends studied with him. Even back then I knew what my path was, and it wasn't with the Jehovah's Witnesses, but it was interesting reading about their point of view.

All I can say is that I never felt pressured and he later went his way and I went mine. Other people may have had different experiences.

In terms of being bashed with someone else's religion, I've had a couple of ugly encounters with the Assembly of God people. Now they are nuts IMO.

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Response to bigrob35 (Reply #68)

Mon Sep 24, 2012, 05:36 AM

71. I tend to agree. I guess my experience is different than many. See my response, below. n/t

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:37 PM

13. they are deceived and deceive others.

And it is clear if they would take the time to read the bible and the words of jesus...but they don't
And thus they believe concepts like the rapture which is a consturcted idea from a single line taken out of context in the bible...where as many other parts in that same book say otherwise.
they have been captured by their own ignorance of the book they claim has the truth.
Jesus tried to warn them himself in many places like this;

Luke.21

And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 05:54 PM

14. Israel will be the site of Jesus's second coming?,,,,

Well I just read a article about the Mormon's here is Missouri. They have a 'pasture' which they purchased and claim THAT is where Jesus will appear during the 2nd coming!

SO, I thinks somebodies dont knows what the h*ck they're talkin bout!

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 06:45 PM

17. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't come off as if they were superior.

You don't see the Amish doing that.

These people are often NASTY about their piety and are CONVINCED everyone else is going to hell and only THEY are going to heaven because they believe and they act like that gives them a license to be total assholes.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 07:43 PM

21. Creepy! These people are batshit-crazy...

At about the 45:00 mark, they're talking about some individuals studying ways to set off an "A-bomb" in such a way that it causes an earthquake to take down the temple-mount.

What in holy hell is wrong with these people?



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Response to truth2power (Reply #21)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:20 PM

28. That I hadn't heard before watching this.

Batshit insanely pathologically psychotically insane would be an understatement.

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Response to truth2power (Reply #21)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 06:39 AM

46. Beneath the Planet of the Apes

Good Catch, truth2power. Reminds me that back in the 1990's, Israel reportedly expelled some British and American end-timers for plotting to fulfill Biblical prophecy by blowing up the Wailing Wall and perhaps the same mosque mentioned in the documentary.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home, briefly studied for the Baptist ministry at Falwell's alma mater, and was surrounded by end-timers of varying degrees before becoming a young adult. It's part of the faith to believe or hope that Christ returns in one's lifetime, but most Christians I know consider it a sin (Tempting God) to try and force the Second Coming. On the other hand, over the years I have been forced cut off all ties with some relatives exactly like those in the documentary because I do not want the FBI showing up at my door asking questions about them. Well, that and my relatives consider me unclean or something because I walked away from organized religion, joined The Church of the SubGenius and became pastor of St. God's Cathedral where the real Christ is always welcome.

The word "addiction" used in the documentary to describe the behavior of some of the end-time space cadets is an interesting diagnosis, though it's above my pay grade to have an opinion. However I do know that some of these people are very capable of attempting the ultimate Temptation of God. My guess is that every intelligence agency in the Middle East and beyond to the Korean CIA and Interpol are also aware of the possibilities. God help us, eh?

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Response to truth2power (Reply #21)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 06:49 AM

64. These ARE NOT the kind of people we

Want in public office, especially in Congress or in other branches of Government, and yet they are already seeping into it, via the Republican party.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 08:12 PM

23. ZZZZzzzzzzz...

This sort of thing has been fundamental in American history since before we were a country. It started for real in the 1730's, and since Pilgrims, Puritans and freethinkers came here at least partly for religious freedom (and don't forget Pennsylvania started as a strictly Quaker colony) it could be said the country was founded on religious ideas, many of them half-assed. The separation mentioned in the Constitution is more a warning of what we could be if we don't watch it rather than an affirmation of what we were.

Goggle up Great Awakening and note the three big ones we had-- with maybe a fourth in the 60s and a fifth right now. Don't ignore how pulpits were crucial in fighting slavery and Jim Crow and that William Jennings Bryan, the nutter of the Monkey Trial, was so far to the left he could school Kucinich and stepped down as Secretary of State when we entered WWI because he was a pacifist and his principles wouldn't allow him to serve a nation at war.

Rather than all this handwringing and whining, check out how we survived it in the past.




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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #23)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:28 PM

30. I have no problem ignoring how pulpits were "crucial" in flighting slavery and Jim Crow

Don't forget that for every pulpit that denegrated slavery (and the historical case for this has been grossly overstated), there were dozens, if not hundreds more that preached the exact opposite. Many, if not most of those pulpits equated abolition to atheisim, or in other words, if you were an abolitionist, you couldn't possibly be a Christian. Don't forget also that religion in general and especially Christianity fully supported and perpetuated the practice of slavery for thousands of years and still stupports the racism that followed abolition all the way to today. The Enlightenment movement in the US had far more to do with abolition than any small role Christianity ever played just like it was instrumental in ending slavery in Europe before it ever happened in the US. If anything Christianity delayed the abolitionist movement and was counterproductive to its goals.

As far as a 5th great awakening happening right now, if it is it's a pretty piss poor one. Christian identification as a function of overall population has been in serious decline since the 70's with no end in sight.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #30)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:55 PM

31. Town churches reflected their parishioners, but...

William Wilberforce in Britain and Quakers, Moravians, and Baptists in the US led abolition forces. Garrison got his start at a Quaker paper, and names like Lucretia Mott pop in the strangest places. The Second Great Awakening had slavery as one of its issues.

Slavery is in the end a moral issue, and when you have moral issues religion inevitably wiggles its way into the argument-- usually managing to be on both sides.



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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #31)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 10:35 PM

33. Religion has always been a piss poor basis for ethics and still is today

That was my central point. Throughout history you find religious "morality" used to justify all sorts of immoral acts. Slavery is just one of them. It wasn't until the Enlightenment that people began to throw off the yoke of religion as a basis for ethics and that's why change occurred. It doesn't take a genius to figure out a book that advocates slavery, pedophilia, rape, incest, war, murder, and child abuse probably isn't the best moral compass available.

While there certainly were some leaders of the abolitionist movement who based their case on biblical ethics, it's somewhat disengenuous to ignore the proponents of slavery who managed to use biblical ethics to a far greater effect for far longer. It's no different than people who are quick to point out Christian soup kitchens, but effectively ignore how Christianity destroys life, mental health, scientific endeavors, and free thought in general.

For every William Wilberforce you can name, I can counter with the likes of Benjamin Palmer who enjoyed far greater influence and preached that slavery was not only moral per biblical principles but was preferable to the slaves themselves than the alternative. That's what biblical ethics gets you. When your ethics aren't founded in reason, you can use them to justify pretty much any immoral act you can name. When you claim that god is on your side and people believe it, there simply is no higher authority one can appeal to refute anything to believers.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #33)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:48 PM

41. Religion, or just Christianity? Your argument seems to be primarily against Western...

religions, one in particular, but still ignores that religious ethics are usually reflective of the mores of the society that believes in that religion. Judaism, a religion of Law, was born in the ancient days of warlords, while Christianity, a religion based on love, was born on the tail of the Greek enlightenment-- both allegedly the word of God, but in truth reflecting trains of thought of the day. And such thought around yet today, with or without the official seal of God.

I'm not sure how the ethics of "reason" would be superior to religious ones, since all of them are the products of human ingenuity-- something I doubt you would deny. Religious ethics simply add the element of the supernatural for authority. Whilst religions have admittedly allowed horrific things to happen, "reason" has given us Utilitarians, Nazis and Stalin. Since religion has also given us animists, Buddhists and Quakers, I fail to see how one is significantly superior to the other. Again, if they are all the invention of our minds, why is one superior to the other? Simply pointing to God as an authority makes one of them bad?

And, ummm, while I also object to the almost pornographic flailing of them in public, do you really have a problem with the Ten Commandments? Are they something to be tossed, or do they also reflect something of the ethics of "reason"? Isn't their high standing in the Old Testament and restatement in the New simply a reflection of universal human mores?

Or are they irrelevant simply because legend has it Moses brought them down from the mountain? Which commandments don't count in the "rational" ethic?









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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #41)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 02:43 AM

42. Ah yes, the old tired well debunked argument that atheism fueled Hitler and Stalin's genocides

The problem is it just doesn't pass even a cursory bullshit test and is childishly simple to debunk. It relies on the false equivalency of atheism and religion. The problem with this failed premise is that nobody goes to war for atheism. There are no sacred books of atheism to reference as a source of wisdom, no dogma to follow, nothing to die for, no prophets to follow blindly, and no false promises of virgins or paradise in the afterlife for soldiers (which conveniently can never be verified). The basic problem with using atheism as a tool for genocide or war is it's pretty fucking hard to motivate someone to kill with it. How do you think that works exactly or have you actually bothered to think it through? You also either ignore or are unaware of Hitler's support by the Christian establishment and his frequent references to his own Christianity (whether he believed it or not) in his speeches. Hitler was never an atheist and publicly self identified as a Christian throughout his entire life without exception. Hitler very masterfully used Christianity to motivate and ultimately kill people the same way it's been done since recorded history. So did other Nazis. He well understood the power such a tool allows and he used it to great effect. So which do you think is more responsible for the Nazis? Atheism or Christianity? I'm pretty sure I know what the answer to that is, but I'd love to hear your argument and we can expand on Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot or anyone else you want too.

No, I don't discriminate against particular organized religions. They are all nutty as far as I'm concerned. It's just a matter of degree. I just use Christianity as an example most often because it's what most people in the US can most easily identify with.

Yes, I do have a problem with the 10 commandments. The problem with all ideas borne from religion is they exchange revelation for reason and inevitably revelation always trumps reason or simply does away with it entirely (as is the case with the 10 commandments). There is absolutely nothing about the 10 commandments which are based in reason. It's all revelation. So maybe it works somewhat if you happen to be a practicing Jew and you are predisposed to believe in the more hocus pocus aspects of religion and you don't happen to mind extreme misogyny. Even then I'm not really sure what value it adds to anything. Have you every actually read them and seriously gave them any thought? The first four essentially command you to close your mind and pledge your allegiance to a made up entity. The next one requires you to pledge your support to your parents, evidently regardless of whether they rape you or sell you into slavery. The next one says not to kill, unless you catch someone worshiping another god in the next town (kill the entire village and burn the livestock), you find out your wife isn't a virgin, you catch your daughter fornicating, you catch someone working on Friday or Sunday(depending on which prophet you believe more), etc. The next one says don't commit adultery, but again you get numerous exceptions like prostitutes, children, polygamy, and rape which evidently get you a free pass. The next one says not to steal, which is probably the best one of the bunch, but the bible also commands you to steal in certain instances. The next one sort of says don't lie, but even biblical scholars can't agree on what it really means so you can really make up your own definition if you want and you'll be as close as anyone. The last one says don't steal from your neighbor, which was already covered in #8 and seems a bit redundant. I guess if you steal your neighbor's slave maybe you get stoned to death twice or something. I could come up with a better list of 10 on a cocktail napkin with "don't masturbate on the bus", "don't stick your dick in a vacuum cleaner", and "don't piss in the wind" as three of the directives and I wouldn't need a talking donkey, a talking snake, or a talking bush to do it. You don't need religion to come up with nonsense.

Religious ethics don't add to reason, as you claim. It always detracts from reason. It's also inherently subject to corruption and frequently used in such a manner today just like it has been for thousands of years.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #42)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 03:42 AM

43. I didn't say atheism caused anything, I simply mentioned that...

nonreligious ethical systems can be as bad as you claim religious ones are. Don't twist my words to fit your bullshit argument. If you're going to argue, at least get that straight.

I'll accept your point about the commandments that are specifically religious-- I admit I spoke too fast bringing it up, but don't go trying to make some ridiculous claim that "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't mean just that. It means "don't kill" and I doubt you'll find many of your rational ethical systems saying it's OK to slaughter your neighbors. Same with stealing, lying, and adultery-- don't try to claim they say something else and don't even think telling me they are not rational simply because legend has it they came from some cloudy mountaintop. Now, have they always been followed? No, of course not, nor have any other ethical systems been followed to the letter. And there have been many exceptions to basic religious law, just as there are in civil law.

Now, specifically what system of ethics do you follow that is not inherently subject to corruption? Does it have a name, or are you going to come up with the ever-ready horseshit of following something in your head or that you read and doesn't have a name or identity, but just happens to be far superior to any Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu ethic that has been evolving for thousands of years. Myself, I follow Quaker teachings that have been refined for 350 years. I follow them by choice because I like them and they make sense. And they challenge me on many levels.

You? (And don't dare try to tell me you read "Nicomachean Ethics")

I'm not the guy to do it on an internet board, but every so often I get to see one of you guys in the same room with a Jesuit and you usually end up crying. (Jesuits have read "Nicomachean Ethics, and much more) I see some value in some religious ideas, you see none at all, and that closed mind is your failing.









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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #43)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 05:22 AM

44. This was your assertion, verbatim...

..., "reason" has given us Utilitarians, Nazis and Stalin.


So if my interference wasn't what you meant, then please do clarify it, because if it isn't I haven't a clue what you mean.

Reason and/or atheism has murdered no one. Not one person. Ever in recorded history.

If you think otherwise, please list a name or something of substance I can work with. Just one will do.

Meanwhile I can name millions murdered in the name of Christianity alone. I can also point to thousands of suicides where homophobia fueled by Christianity and other religions was a major factor. I can point to lives destroyed, kids abused, science scuttled in favor of hocus pocus nonsense, reproductive rights denied, rapes, slavery, misogyny, racism, genocide, delusional behavior, and on and on it goes. All of these things were either as a direct result of the application of religion based morality, or was justified by religion, or both.

I can't think of one bad thing caused by reason. Maybe you can. I'd be glad to hear it. The reason ethics based on reason is not inherently corruptible is because the ultimate arbitrator is always logic. That doesn't mean reason based systems of ethics are infallible as they are always subject to fallibility when administered by corrupt people.

I'm not really sure how a Jesuit would make me cry, unless I was a child they were trying to sodomize. Outside of that I don't really see that happening, but hey, I've been wrong before. And sure, they do seem to find some value in some forms of academic study when they aren't burning books, but I can also give you plenty of examples of theologians who were ardent Christians when they started their studies and are now fully dedicated atheists once they really found out the true origins and true meaning of Christianity. So I hope you do realize your challenge can work both ways, yes?

And I never claimed religion has no value. It manages to keep a few drunks, drug addicts, and criminals on the straight and narrow, although the efficacy is grossly overstated. It does manage to feed a few hungry people once the Bishop gets a new gold chalice and priests are sent on sabbaticals to countries with lax child molestation enforcement. It keeps old white people with weak minds from being afraid of the dark once they have sent their life savings to Kenneth Copeland so he can buy another jet. So yes, I do have to admit that there is some small tertiary value to society from religion. My argument is just that it isn't worth all the bad shit that comes along for the ride, and there is absolutely nothing religion can provide that I can't get elsewhere(other than the little wafer crackers they hand out at communion. I can't find those anywhere else). So little benefit with major social costs just doesn't seem like such a great deal to me. You can call that having a closed mind if it makes you sleep better at night.

The 10 commandments came from reason? Even if you believe that, the Hindus figured out it wasn't a good idea to kill or steal thousands of years before that and it's probably a safe bet that secular ethical thought processes came up with the idea well before that. It kinda goes along with moving out of caves and into cities which is also what eventually created most modern religions in the first place.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #44)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 05:58 AM

45. You may remain clueless, for all I care. "Reason" may not have killed, but...

many were killed by "reasonable" people and atheists. If you don't see the parallels, I won't accept the blame.

You still haven't bothered to explain just what your "reasoned" ethic is. If not one of the recognized religions, then what? All ethics are structured and have philosophical underpinnings or are simply a random jumble of quotes and jargon. Most people tend toward the random quotes and jargon--are you one of them or can you actually show the structure of your ethics? Empiricism, solipsism... there are so many schools of thought you could get lost in them and there should be one to your liking that doesn't include a deity. But, so far all you have done is complain about religion and not a word about an alternative. I'm aware of some of the alternatives, and I'm also aware of uneducated bullshit just complaining without anything constructive in replacement. So, how do you feel about deontology? Can your describe the epistemology and metaphysics that are the foundations of your ethic?

I didn't think so. Invariably, when someone dismisses religion so broadly they have nothing solid to replace it but slogans and bullshit. One certainly can be an atheist without being an asshole about it, but so many are so proud of discovering atheism they crow about it like teenagers discovering sex.

Jesuits, btw, are not so much known for buggering little kids but are better known as logicians-- actually practicing the "reason" you hold so highly.

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #45)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 11:24 AM

47. You can resort to name calling, for all I care

Such things have zero affect on me. I just consider the mentality and character (or lack thereof) of those who feel the need to resort to such tactics. And please don't try to claim you didn't because you managed to insert it into your rhetoric without a direct callout. I'm sure you think you are clever for doing so, but you aren't. You're simply a name caller that has to resort to such childish antics when your logic starts to run thin. So either you can own up to that and apologize for it or you can't. If you don't it's far more of a reflection on you than me so I could care less.

And no, I don't "see the parallels" because you have utterly failed to provide anything that remotely resembles one. Simply saying an atheist killed someone does not mean they did so on behalf or because of atheism, and how you think a "reasonable" person would murder anyone is still a mystery. So if I'm "clueless" on that concept, I'm pretty sure it is your fault and you should accept the blame. If you want to make that quantum leap in reason, then I don't think it's too much to ask you to provide support for that assertion, and so far you haven't. The very best you have is guilt by association, which really means you have nothing at all. It's not logically different than someone claiming vegetarianism is evil because Hitler was a vegetarian (and for the record I'm not saying he was or wasn't). It simply feeds false equivalency which was already bullshit to begin with and is a complete logical failure. The reason I don't really feel the obligation to provide an "alternative" is because I'm merely asking you to support your assertions which as far as I can tell you have utterly failed. You are the one who came to this thread preaching the benefits of a religion based ethics system. If I can't counter that with relevant facts that challenge your assertion without being called a clueless asshole that crows like a teenager, then clearly one of us has no interest in good faith discussion. Asking me to prove my own argument for an "alternative" would simply have the effect of letting you off the hook for proving yours. If you can't prove yours, then just say so. It certainly would be a more honest approach than name calling and trying to change the subject when you've painted yourself into a corner, yes?


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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #47)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 12:01 PM

48. So, you have no alternative ethic yourself, is that it? Just winging it while...

complaining about others in a mad flurry of words.

Define your terms... Identify the source of your personal ethic...

Stops 'em every time because far too many people who like to talk about these things rarely actually think about these things.




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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #48)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 12:52 PM

49. Sure I do

And I have no problem pointing out exactly what it is, other than doing so would simply provide you with another opportunity to change the subject (which clearly you are desperate to do). If you want me to name a system of ethics that is better than religion, I can name pretty much anything. Anarchy would be one. I'm certainly no anarchist, but it seems preferable to cutting off people's hands for theft or stoning women to death for adultery. The US legal system would be another, which is firmly based on reason despite historical revisionists failed attempts to claim otherwise and religious fanatics' attempts to burn down the wall of separation between church and state. I have no interest in discussing either of those completely separate subjects with you, so you'll have to find a new playmate if you want to go into that.

Feel free to claim victory if it makes you feel better. I have no allusions that anyone who subscribes to a system void of reason is going to be reasonable. My only interest was challenging your assertions that religion based ethics are worth anything more than a bucket of warm spit. I'm quite convinced I have done so effectively with the added benefit of revealing you as nothing more than a name caller who runs away from their own statements rather than even attempting to support them. As such I have no more interest in continuing this discussion and giving you more opportunities to act out your childishness. I gave you the opportunity to apologize for it and you showed your true colors again by simply ignoring your own bad behavior. It doesn't bother me in the least. By the time I hit Post you'll be no more of a concern to me than my last beer fart. Feel free to have the last word as I'm sure you'll be unable to resist. Such things have no importance to me.

Cheers!

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #49)

Tue Sep 18, 2012, 11:05 PM

63. I should apologize for your being a fathead? Not any time soon.

(Yo, jury-- I really don't give a shit if you hide this)

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Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #23)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:23 PM

36. Funny thing about survival....

Everyone doing it in the present has also done it in the recent past.

Therefore... apparently they will continue to do so indefinitely.
ZZZZZZZzzzzzz.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:12 PM

26. So I've heard



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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 09:27 PM

29. Blasphemers.


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Response to patrice (Reply #60)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 05:15 PM

61. I haven't read that one.

In fact I haven't read any Robbins is a long time. Will have to check it out!

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Response to progressoid (Reply #61)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 05:30 PM

62. There's a sock and some other stuff and it's also about Israel & the US and some other stuff . . .

typical Robbins, very much in the vein of Another Roadside Attraction, which is the first of his books that I ever read - about some hippies who steal the corpse of Jesus, good-humored satire . . . and some other stuff.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 10:52 PM

34. I had to watch it in 3 pieces as I was running around.

Scary stuff here. These people walk among us and have a very dark and twisted view of the future.
OK to pollute as it's all going to be reset.
Gotta love the Jews so we can convert them.
Frightening pack of zealots that are being cynically manipulated by the likes of Hagee and LaHaye.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:27 PM

37. Religion is stupid and

short circuits the logic circuits in the brain.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:34 PM

39. How do these folks feel about

Mittens and the mormons?

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Sun Sep 16, 2012, 11:44 PM

40. Bookmarking -- thanks.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 01:58 PM

50. I watched this entire, documentary of stupid.

I felt like throwing up by the time it ended...

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 02:07 PM

51. True Story: People need to understand that this is a movement that is willing to do whatever they

can to be a part of this event.

That is, it has entered the realm of Self-fulfilling Prophecy.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 02:10 PM

52. Have you all noticed that "Liberty" University has major facilities funded by the LaHaye, as in the

Left Behind series, family?

"Liberty" University is also a MAJOR Republican staffing source.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 02:17 PM

53. My goodness! What a convenient excuse for building KILLING machines, for such a hand$$$ome

reward, I might add.

Do you ever wonder why people NEVER ask how/why their thinking could be biased by the rewards they receive for thinking as they do?

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 02:38 PM

54. I get harassed in front of my own home by those nuts

Check out how I get treated by those types in Kohler, WI. All because the delusional Evangelicals believe their own lie that a guy molested kids (Police reports prove their accusations were unfounded): &list=LL83LLvSFS4LbQdbymhBBbcQ&feature=mh_lolz

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 02:44 PM

55. Wow. I'm speechless. I was raised with that shit, and I'm still speechless.

The crazy runs deep in the religiously insane.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 03:07 PM

56. Anybody besides me notice how much Rev. Hagee resembles Jonathan Winters in "The Loved One"?

Last edited Mon Sep 17, 2012, 03:59 PM - Edit history (1)

edited for typo

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 03:54 PM

57. Closed with an add to become a "minister" with online course. HFW!

Holy
Fucking
Wow!

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 04:02 PM

58. These. ARE. blasphemers. Practically every word out of their mouths reveals they equate

their own understanding with the mind of God.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Mon Sep 17, 2012, 04:10 PM

59. 100K responded to Bush criticism of Israel = THESE are the people who CAUSED the war on Iraq.

Take a look at Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington FOIA research on White House visitor logs during the year preceding March 19, 2003:

http://www.citizensforethics.org/pages/search-results?cx=012852851039939669615%3Ai48p-3mtx2s&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&q=bush+White+House+visitor+logs&sa=Go!

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Wed Sep 19, 2012, 11:18 PM

65. At about 41:58

A gentleman (unknown if Christian, American, Jewish or Arab) regarding the construction of the third Jewish temple and getting rid of the dome:

"The problem that you have here at the temple now is that possession of the mount becomes interpreted as possession of the truth. When people think that they have to possess a place to possess the truth, that turns that spot into the blasting cap of religious conflict."

This right after one of the on-tour fundies says he wished one of Saddam's missiles had blasted the dome off, but that maybe an earthquake would do the job.

It IS a very disturbing video, but should be watched to gain a recognition for the danger these folks are capable of fomenting.

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Response to Richard D (Original post)

Thu Sep 20, 2012, 09:33 AM

66. This isn't Orthodox Christianity

This isn't classic orthodox Christianity. It is a heresy known as Dispensationalism, and it is a distortion of Biblical truth. The rapture and the picture of a "doom and gloom" future is not found in Scripture. Rather, one of hope and optimism.

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Response to thatwhichisnt (Reply #66)

Thu Sep 20, 2012, 01:36 PM

67. you are correct, It is not even historic Evangelicalism, However, among the "Christian-right"

it is certainly completely mainstream. And the Christian right now plays a leading role in today's Republican Party. So we have a dominating faction of today's Republican Party that looks forward with glee to provoking World War III. That is dangerous to say the least.

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