US plan to sell cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia draws condemnation...

[Indi Guy]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by greatauntoftriplets (a host of the Latest Breaking News forum).

Source: Press TV



The United States has announced to sell controversial cluster munitions worth hundreds of millions of dollars to Saudi Arabia, a move that has drawn condemnation from campaigners and rights groups.


Last week, the US Defense Department gave a contract valued at $641 million to manufacture 1,300 cluster bombs for Saudi Arabia to Textron Defense Systems, a unit of Textron Inc. (TXT.N), according to the Pentagon and Textron.

Anti-arms campaigners and human rights groups condemned the US for formalizing the sale of Textron's CBU-105 cluster bombers -- munitions blamed for killing and injuring civilians long after conflicts end, Inter Press Service news agency reported on Saturday.

“Both the US and Saudi Arabia have recently condemned the use of cluster munitions… that’s ironic given this new sale, because a cluster munition is a cluster munition, no matter what kind it is,” said Daryl Kimball, executive director of the Arms Control Association, a watchdog group in Washington...

Read more: http://presstv.com/detail/2013/08/25/320492/us-to-sell-cluster-bombs-to-saudi-arabia/

[Arctic Dave]

1. Yeah, that's what that pos country needs.

Unless we plan on giving them the working end of them.

[branford]

2. Why is this surprising?

Neither the US or Saudi Arabia are signatories to the treaty, and we often sell a variety of advanced military hardware to the regime.

The sale does not violate any US law, and is lucrative for American companies and workers.

I'm also not surprised to see the story mentioned so prominently at PressTV, Iran's state propaganda arm. Saudi Arabia and Iran have diverging political, military and religious interests, as is very evident from their actively backing different sides in Syria.

[RC]

3. Ahh, that makes it all OK then.

We didn't sign any agreement not to maim, and kill people with cluster bombs long after the original reason for dropping them has paid off. Profit for the arms manufactures.

[branford]

8. No, not OK. As I said, just not very surprising and hardly late breaking news.

[delrem]

10. But nothing in your post suggests it's "not OK".

In fact your post reads exactly like any other PNAC supporting blow off.
You do realize what war Saudi Arabia is engaged in, fronting the US "friends Syria" coalition?

Of don't you make any connections to anything?

[branford]

11. My post only concerned my opinion on the value of the story as late breaking news.

My opinions concerning the PNAC, Saudi Arabi, Syria, cluster munitions, or anything else was not the subject of my post.

I didn't realize that I had to offer opinions on matters you find important whenever I write a post. I take that under advisement.

In fact, you do not appear to disagree with my analysis of the OP. You're just irritated that I didn't share in your expressed outrage. That is not exactly a winning strategy to win friends and convince people of the value of your ideas and positions.

As to your allegations concerning my character or politics (PNAC, indeed!), well . . ., any reply would be sure to violate the TOS.

[ConcernedCanuk]

24. I'm curious

.
.
.

What was your previous username?

CC

[branford]

26. Huh? Although I've lurked for a while, I only joined DU in July.

I joined because I recently had more free time this summer and was particularly interested in the Zimmerman trial and Detroit bankruptcy.

Do I purportedly have insufficient ideological purity (i.e., agree with you) and therefore must be a previously registered right-wing shill?

[DeSwiss]

19. It's not surprising to me in the least.

I expect as much from our dimwit, barbarian leaders of the planet and unfortunately they rarely disappoint. Well, they do disappoint, but then I also realize that they're idiot mutants who lack the use of all but 3% of their DNA intelligence programming and have access to only about 10-15% of their brain's neural hardware capacity. So what would one expect from a species as deficient as that? We're morons, and we just can't help ourselves.

So no, $641 million for cluster bombs seems a good price. It'll assure that there's a job for some lucky gal or guy making weapons to maim and kill and destroy the Saudi Prince's opponents and we'll never know anything about it. Out of sight, out of mind, right? That's what we're good at.

- No, there aren't any surprises here. I'm not even surprised at how nonchalant and callous your comments sounded. I've gotten used to it all......

[branford]

23. Saudi Arabia's chief adversary is Iran, as is demonstrated by each of their actions in Syria.

As a liberal Jewish American, I will find it very hard to muster much indignation or sympathy if these two disgusting, theocratic and antisemitic regimes bomb the hell out of one another, and provide good paying union jobs while doing so, regardless of their choice of weaponry.

I'm also not really very sorry if I wasn't sufficiently disturbed to your satisfaction when I implied that a cluster munition story might be better in another form like GD.

[DeSwiss]

27. Saudi Arabia's military concerns definitely include Iran......

...but internal insurrection is closer to them and more of a direct threat. The House of Saud (Sunnis) has been paying-off their people for decades, but there is unrest now because of dissatisfaction with the sharing of the nation's wealth. And the Shia/Sunni divide that has always existed there (with the preponderance of oil being in the Shia areas) is now worse. And the Syrian civil war -- so close and so instructive for potential rebels -- has brought the spectre of change and uncertainty to all the despots and tyrannical regimes. It probably even worries Netanyahu.

Bahrain and Yemen are both running hot for democracy and the Saudis see the handwriting-on-the-wall, even if others refuse to see it. Both the Saudis and Israel have benefited from the stability they've had up til now. And both have an interest in being able to put down internal factions which would surely become more of a threat should the Syrian rebels gain an upper hand in Syria -- which in-turn strengthens Iran's.

But as I said, your attitude doesn't surprise me anymore. Our callous indifference to the suffering of others is what got us here. I'm only acknowledging the reality for what it is. And I also realize that this will likely never change, especially when we continue to label ourselves as anything another than a human first.

Because without that as the predominant perspective, people can't muster any sympathy for ''the other.'' This attitude is like a virus that we pass-on, inoculating each generation with the diseases of racism, nationalism, capitalism, all kinds of ''isms'' that don't have a damned thing to do with being a decent human being and with respecting another person's right to exist.

But this is our choice. We choose this attitude and perspective, each of us.

- One by one.....

[Celefin]

30. +100

Our callous indifference to the suffering of others is what got us here.

This.

[mazzarro]

31. Well put indeed and thank you! -- n/t

[deurbano]

35. Wow:

<<As a liberal Jewish American, I will find it very hard to muster much indignation or sympathy if these two disgusting, theocratic and antisemitic regimes bomb the hell out of one another, and provide good paying union jobs while doing so, regardless of their choice of weaponry.>>

[RC]

34. You don't recognize sarcasm?

Interesting.

[Sand Wind]

4. I understand that Iran is not happy about that....

[PatrynXX]

5. would kinda figure considering the source

PressTV ho hum...

[limpyhobbler]

6. Here it is on Reuters:

Textron wins $641 million deal to build Saudi cluster bombs

Textron Defense Systems, a unit of Textron Inc (TXT.N), has won a U.S. Air Force contract valued at $641 million to build 1,300 cluster bombs for Saudi Arabia, the U.S. Defense Department and Textron said on Tuesday.

The contract, which runs through the end of 2015, formalizes the sale of Textron's CBU-105 cluster bombers to Saudi Arabia, a deal that was first notified to Congress in December 2010.

The Pentagon's daily digest of major arms sales said $410 million in foreign military sales funds were being obligated for the Saudi work at this time.

Textron said the CBU-105, also known as a Sensor Fuzed Weapon, meets the Pentagon's policy on cluster munitions, which requires that they must not result in more than 1 percent unexploded ordnance, or duds.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/20/us-textron-bombs-idUSBRE97J0ZF20130820

[Indi Guy]

9. Thanks.

To tell the truth, I didn't know that Press TV was Iranian when I started the thread. I'm happy to see the domestic report on this story.

[branford]

14. FYI, my mention of PressTV or that I didn't find the story surprising,

was not meant to be personal criticism of you. I just think the story is really about cluster munitions generally, and would be more appropriate in GD.

[TomClash]

28. Doesn't matter that it's an Iranian Government site

The facts in the story are true.

[Sand Wind]

16. WASHINGTON | Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:46pm EDT , and nobody is outraged....

[ForgoTheConsequence]

7. At least they aren't chemical bombs.

As long as they only kill and dismember people with good old fashioned explosive power it's all good.

[Kelvin Mace]

12. Again, why exactly should i be happy Obama is doing this?

And please do not tell me he has no say in the matter.

[Ash_F]

13. 111 countries have banned cluster bombs.

But not the US. Nor Saudi Arabia apparently.

We keep good company.

[branford]

17. Many countries with large militaries who are likely to see actual combat did not sign the treaty.

I'm in no way saying that I necessarily approve of cluster munitions, but I do acknowledge that many of the countries that were strong supporters of the treaty have lived in peace and security under the protection of the United States Military. Much of Europe fits that description. It's easy to be righteous when someone else's young men and women will be dying in any conflict. Many of the same countries have also refused to ratify the treaty establishing the International Criminal Court for largely the same reasons as used to object to the cluster munition treaty.

[Ash_F]

22. Nice framing

You forgot to add. "USA! USA! USA!" and "OOOHHRAHHHH!!!"

Even England and France ban them, who are both premier members of the going-over-to-someone-else's-country-and-taking-over-their-stuff club.

I suppose being in bed with the Saudi Arabian dictatorial monarchs is just something to gloss over. Not even worth a try at spinning?

[branford]

25. Is that really what you gathered from my comments? Wow.

First, I didn't say all countries with active militaries. Also, Britain and France are not as significant as you imply. They lack the ability to project power without the United States, as was recently the case in Libya and Mali.

Rightly or wrongly, until such time as the United States is not the world's de facto policeman, and other major powers (primarily Russia and China) abide in practice with similar customs and restrictions in combat, we will not officially tie our hand with a treaty like cluster munitions or the ICC.

You might believe that these treaties are valuable, and I generally agree with you, but the above realty has existed under both D and R administrations for some time. It's similar to the Small Arms Treaty, where our own domestic law far exceeds the treaty provisions, and even Obama's recent signature is meaningless since it stands no chance of gaining 67 votes in the Senate (heck, it probably couldn't get 50 votes in the Democratic chamber!).

[Ash_F]

40. America is the world's policeman?

If this is cops and robbers, the US certainly aren't the cops.

[DeSwiss]

15. K&R

[branford]

18. Heh! Sadly, the Nobel was joke well before Obama received it early in his first term.

[DeSwiss]

21. Yeah, but now it's a travesty and an insult.....

...to all those drone-dead babies and their mothers.

[freshwest]

20. Uh, who would they use these for? AFAIK, they've never used any of our weaponry except for bluff.

[warrant46]

29. Unless they have a good delivery system they are useless

I don't think a Dromedary could carry one and drop it effectively

[Sunlei]

33. delivery system? google Textron they make helicoptors, jets, they can even mow your golf courses.

[freshwest]

37. Oh, no, you're behind the times on that joke. They have many first class planes they've been buying

from America for years, and they have their own pilots to fly them.

Just reading on another thread that the Saudis being Sunnis would likely align with Turkey against the forces of Hezbollah in Syria, who are funded by Iran, the big Shia sect IIRC.

They might use them on that group, or just scare them with it. That would be all out war with modern weaponry of the worst kind. Between the Sarin in Assad's arsenal, and a load of rebels who seem bent on genocide, this could change things immensely.

But if we don't go in, a generation of misery won't be on laid on us but on those who are going after each other for whatever reason, with religious sects as the excuse. They will respect that outcome, instead of being enraged at another episode of 'Pax Americana.'

The region can decide how they want to go forward with this. It isn't like Europe escaped centuries of slaughter to decide how to live together with different denominations. It was no less awful with the technology available.

And it's about time they put their blood on the line instead of having us act as proxy for them. At times I wonder who was driving American 'policy' abroad, if it was our allies or business interests at home.

Just my random thoughts as a civilian on this, as I disclaim any military, foreign policy or special knowledge of that area.
I just know people from several of those nations now involved, as well as Russians.

They moved here to get away from this. They love America and have no plans to go back or promote one thing over the other. They do grieve for what their countries used to be years ago.

[warrant46]

39. I know the Saudis have a wealth of equipment and planes of a modern Air Force

However I wonder how well trained their pilots are in combat. They certainly have little experience there. Their ground crews have never been challenged by the demand of the rapid turnaround and maintenance in a maximum flying environment. They will probably have to use thousands of "Contractors" to maintain their assets if and when combat is joined.

Who will aerially refuel their planes if they really decide to go on this adventure ?

What system of search and rescue do the Saudis have if some of their planes are shot down.

What about the morale of the pilots? How do they whip up these actors to kill fellow Muslims and children when they dispense CBUs ?

Most importantly, Syria is physically right next to Israel and what are the consequences of this whole adventure spiraling out of control ?

And by the way thank you for your comments they were very thought provoking, so much unlike what I often see here these days which passes for intelligent discourse.

[Indi Guy]

41. This may answer a few questions, 'Lockheed Martin training Saudi Arabian pilots to fly fighter jets'

Pilot and maintenance training systems for F-15SA aircraft are to be provided to the Saudi air force by Lockheed Martin, the U.S. firm announced.

The contract — under a Foreign Military Sales arrangement — is worth $253 million and is part of Saudi Arabia’s modernization program for the aircraft.

Lockheed said its 360-degree full mission trainers will enable pilots to complete air-to-air combat, air-to-surface missions, air combat maneuvers and tactical intercepts training. The systems will feature a single dome over the dual-seat cockpit and desktop trainers for procedure training will also part of the package.

Virtual maintenance training systems will include systems will cover areas such as basic maintenance, landing gear and arresting hook, armament and flight controls...

more: http://northiowatoday.com/2013/03/12/lockheed-martin-training-saudi-arabian-pilots-to-fly-fighter-jets/

[warrant46]

42. Hope they do better

Than Northrop and Bell did in Viet-Nam

[stevenleser]

36. They used them in the first gulf war, but that was a UN sanctioned operation. Outside of that, they

have not used the high tech hardware we have given them.

Still. Cluster bombs. Yuck.

[Sunlei]

32. so what people will Saudi Arabia use their Textron Corp. cluster bombs on?

[brightone]

38. The fear of Iran

The US by fear of Iran is trying to Turn Saudi Arabia into the world's biggest arms warehouse. The only thing the US has not done yet is the transfer of its arm factories into Saudi Arabia.

[greatauntoftriplets]

43. We're going to lock this because the article is not from a reputable mainstream news source.

From the LBN SoP: Post the latest news from reputable mainstream news websites and blogs. Important news of national interest only. No analysis or opinion pieces. No duplicates. News stories must have been published within the last 12 hours. Use the published title of the story as the title of the discussion thread.

PressTV is Iranian state television and a propaganda arm of the government. If you can find a link to a reputable source, please feel free to repost.