Pastor's Daughter Accidentally Shot at Church Dies
ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. (AP) — Authorities say a pastor's daughter who was accidentally shot in the head in a Florida church has died.
The Pinellas County Sheriff's Office says 20-year-old Hannah Kelley died Saturday at a hospital. An autopsy is pending.
Kelley had been hospitalized since Sunday, when she was hit in the head by a bullet at her father's Grace Connection Church in St. Petersburg.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2012/02/18/us/AP-US-Accidental-Shooting-Church.html?hp
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southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)
Honest Turtle
(4 posts)The irony here is incredible. A man accidentally shoots his fiance through a wall and kills her in the Church where her father is the preacher. There has got to be a lesson here. I have no idea what it is.
But I do not think that it is the lesson that is repeated endlessly and annoyingly by the gun toting, rule following poster below. How do we stay on Topic???
What is the topic, that most guns that kill in the US kill loved ones? They really do not provide the protection that we think they do?
Or is it that god has or does not have influence on what happens on earth.
Of course there is also the conspiracy theory that this is too much to believe so maybe they concocted the story to cover up a murder... Though I doubt it...
Interesting story though I will have to think on this.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)many issues I always think about. Why on earth does someone need to bring a gun to church? I do believe people have a right to have them but just because you have a right doesn't mean you should carry them around everywhere. It's like the wild, wild west now. The only thing I realized that happened is I don't go out much any longer because you never know what crazies are out there carrying guns. I have no problem with hunters using guns. I have no problem having a gun to protect your family at home. I do have a problem with people walking around with guns and we know nothing who that person is.
octothorpe
(962 posts)I blame the idiot who couldn't handle his weapon correctly.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)That way, you don't have to worry about why is god an asshole who doesn't prevent death and destruction and suffering.
Just throwing it out there as another option.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)invisible omnipotent creature that would "take" a human life because it's "her time." Not everybody buys into that way of thinking.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)A nation of armed idiots. How charming.
xchrom
(108,903 posts)
Warpy
(111,254 posts)It's bad enough when they blow their own heads off with an "I didn't know it was loaded."
This is just sickening.
KG
(28,751 posts)
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)I've negotiated at least two dozen gun sales and no shots were fired.
Response to aikoaiko (Reply #35)
aikoaiko This message was self-deleted by its author.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The person holding it is the only factor.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)People carry. It's ok.
What he did was fucking stupid and inappropriate, but a church is pretty much a social place, insofar as they are anything at all. Not unusual for people to try to sell things there. Sometimes there's a bulletin board, etc. Had it been a pair of earrings, it might have happened as well, though of course, no one would have been shot.
Perhaps there is a disconnect between you and I on what a church is. To me, it's just a building where people get together to do stuff. It holds no other value, for me.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I know you have ideological blinders on, but seriously, there are some battles you don't want to fight, and defending this abomination would be one of them.
Conducting a gun sale transaction in a church: not a great idea, killing a kid while conducting an idiotic gun sale transaction in a church: things gun enthusiasts should not defend.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Never mind.
In the gun-nut world, a gun is as harmless as a wet noodle, and should be as common as air. The gun has nothing to do with this death, doncha know. It's like a cult.. all logic flies out the window. Everyone should carry a loaded one everywhere!!! No exceptions!
LAGC
(5,330 posts)This would have been just as big of a tragedy if it had happened at a private residence.
It was negligence, plain and simple. The gun didn't shoot itself.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)See... the gun has nothing to do with the death!
Gore1FL
(21,130 posts)The point he was making is that there is no difference if this happened at a grocery store, a private home, a church, a fire dept., whatever.
The location where a round was fired that ended up killing a girl makes no difference. No one is arguing that that the gun did not fire the bullet. No one is arguing that if the gun wasn't there the girl wouldn't have been shot.
The argument is that it made no difference that it happened on church property or anywhere else. Anywhere would be a tragedy.
I don't own a gun. I won't own a gun. I don't like them. They are legal to own. Having one in church is not worse or better than having one outside of church. That was the point being made.
I have to agree with the actual point of the poster which was that this happening in a church makes it no more or no less tragic.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Neither was appropriate. One was negligence, the other was just plain stupid. If you feel the need to do it in the closet, perhaps you are not in the right venue.
Carrying, is normal.
Zookeeper
(6,536 posts)I think it's paranoid. (Unless you are in an extremely crime-ridden area and have reason to believe you might be assaulted. So, probably not a church.) I wouldn't stay long in any public place where I thought men were carrying.
While I know people who own guns, none of them carry. Somehow, even as a woman, I've managed to make it to middle age and defended myself without carrying a gun. I'll never understand why suburban men think they need a gun to defend themselves.
Flame away.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Your choice for your mode of risk management is your own business, not mine. If you are comfortable, and confident, by all means.
I have had no choice but to live in places where very bad things can and do happen. I carry, because human life is very precious to me. Even that of total strangers. To me, a firearm is nothing but a tool, like my CPR mask. I could use it negligently, or I could use it to protect human life.
Some people choose negligence. Some people choose predatory mistreatment of other people. Best defense against the latter, is armed people with a desire to protect human life.
The negligence piece is something we are ever vigilant for, and the accidental firearm death rate shows it, having trended down from thousands per year in the 50's, to ~500 per year now. Certainly something to keep working on, as I would love to see that number a big fat zero, but now, it is statistically negligable. Compared to the hundreds of thousands that die accidentally every year from various sources, and the distribution of accidental deaths among those sources, we have bigger fish to fry.
tledford
(917 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Losing possession of your firearm is a very serious thing, because it endangers others, just like pointing a gun at a wall in a populated area, or pulling a trigger when you don't know if there is a round in the chamber.
365 degrees in three dimensions of possibilities, and this shithead pointed at one of the few places where there was a person, and pulled the trigger. Yes, that is worse than the initial problem of a gun being stolen, as it is just property crime at that point.
But what happens later? How many deaths? Only time will tell.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)A church is not an appropriate place for commercial activity - guns or earrings.
Aside from like bake sales, etc, as charity fundraisers in the fellowship hall, it is not appropriate for a church to be the venue for commercial activity.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Exchanging 'impure' money for 'pure' money isn't anything at all like selling something to someone, at a church.
And every church is different.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)Animals which were to be used in sacred offerings and Jesus still said it was inappropriate. The money changers and merchants were out to make a profit and church isn't the place for that. Churches are for worship and fellowship, not commerce. If you are going to start allowing flea markets in churches, be prepared for the IRS to reconsider your tax exempt status, including the local property tax exemption.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)If you are refering to the manner in which it was done, you probably won't find anyone here who will disagree with you, or defend the idiots involved.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)If you disagree, please state some specific objections. People have been armed and carried out business transactions at churches for millenia. Sometimes the two (transactions in arms) would intersect.
The only problem I see is the fact that the idiots didn't use proper safety in handling a firearm. And that's a BIG freaking problem anywhere.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)If the accidental shooting death of a someone who wasn't even party to an unsupervised gun sale that took place inside a cramped church closet isn't enough to convince you that only carefully vetted and legally-sanctioned and safety-supervised events and locations are suitable for firearms transactions, then you are beyond hope.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)"cramped church closet"? Asserting facts not in evidence. Clostes come in many sizes. I noted this in another comment today.
"legally-sanctioned"? You imply a criminal sale, also facts not in evidence.
"safety-supervised"? What criteria do you propose?
Did this guy do something stupid? Did he handle his firearm improperly? Hell yes. And he should get a long time in jail to think about that, in my opinion. But that is not sufficient to make all churches off-limits to guns.
crim son
(27,464 posts)What do you bet that there will be no more gun sales at this particular church?
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Thus perpetuating the endless idiot cycle of violence; reaction and counterreaction; snowballing endlessly. Because no one has the courage to say: "stop it."
It's like two children arguing: each one says the other started it. So each feels justified, in escalating the conflict. BUt each escalation just incites a counter-escalation.
That's how the idiots act, out there among the McCoys.
And in the "war on terror" too.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)or at a basketball court would the facts of the matter be any different?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)people should be selling guns at places clearly marked as 'guns are being sold here', so that people who don't wish to be accidentally shot in the head by absolute idiots can stay a very safe distance away. However, to state the blindingly obvious, churches are supposed to be sanctuaries - places apart from the strife and conflict of the secular world, places of peace and serenity.
but you know this.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)are two completely different things- but that's a different subject 
I sold a gun last summer in my driveway to somebody- Should I have put a sign up first?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)You want to sell guns or anything else at a church, be prepared to have your tax exempt status challenged.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)I hope nobody is out there pimping their crochet work in the pews if that was the case
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)whether crochet work, guns, or earrings.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)whether it's worth the price is a different story LOL
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)This shooting bothers me. It doesn't bother me any more or less that it happened on church property.
It was a negligent shooting and shooter should be held accountable.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)No. It's the law's business when people's safety is concerned. Churches do not get to do whatever they want.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)If one can keep and bear arms on private property (including private property open to the public), then I can't think of a single good reason to exclude churches from that liberty.
This death is a tragedy, but not one that is more tragic because it happened in a church. When people are negligent with their firearms and injuries or death occurs, it is a crime, in my opinion.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)then there should be a well regulated militia nearby. Perhaps the church could start one!
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)It's merely not the limiting condition you think it is.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)It meant a militia that was armed in the common weapons of the day and allowed to train.
Tunkamerica
(4,444 posts)Terrible luck they had with that one bad gun out of the millions and millions of safe ones.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)The place doesn't matter. The activity doesn't matter.
I'm sure this tragedy happened because of negligence (barring some proof of defective parts).
itsrobert
(14,157 posts)n/t
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)Last edited Wed Mar 14, 2012, 08:54 AM - Edit history (1)
....dropping the mag and checking the chamber or or spinning the cylinder. And even then it would be pointed at the ground.
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)Perfect description
Irishonly
(3,344 posts)My first thought was to wonder why anyone would find it necessary to bring a gun to church. Then to find out he was trying to sell it. The poor family.
jpak
(41,757 posts)
Response to jpak (Reply #3)
Tesha This message was self-deleted by its author.
izquierdista
(11,689 posts)Never know when a sewer alligator is going to come up and bite you in the ass.
rocktivity
(44,576 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)
SammyWinstonJack
(44,130 posts)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Javaman
(62,521 posts)
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)to carry a weapon on private property?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)One that maybe doesn't want their daughter shot just because obsessed gun-nuts have no clue when and when not to whip it out?
Besides, a church is not an exclusive gun club. Most churches are advertised as a "public" place encouraging people to come on in.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)But if keeping and bearing arms on private property is legal in most places there is no reason for the law to decide churches are special. Church leadership can ban weapons and how those who disobey arrested for trespassing.
Response to aikoaiko (Reply #34)
AlbertCat This message was self-deleted by its author.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)Though it wasn't in Florida. It seemed to me one of those laws they didn't need.
niyad
(113,279 posts)what the HELL was the shooter doing conducting a gun sale in a church? and, in a closet, no less.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)There is no excuse for that weapon being fired. Period.
Even if it had gone off, a responsible gun owner would have been pointing it at the floor, not a wall, beyond which who knows what might be standing.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)left the fucking thing at home.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)There is literally nothing to support your contention. Any gathering of people is potentially a target of some lunatic. If I went to a church, I would go armed. There are too many examples of extremists attacking churches, mosques and synagogs of all types.
Had the guy carried responsibly, no one would ever have known he had a gun at all.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Then maybe you should just stay home as well.
But you're right ...Any gathering of people is potentially a target of some lunatic..... in this gun crazed country.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)spend so much time and effort learning CPR and First Aid.
Learning triage and disaster managment.
Learning how to spot people acting erratically.
Learning how to safely carry a firearm, and equipping ourselves appropriately.
Learning how to hit our targets.
All of these things contribute to public safety, when that 'crazed lunatic' starts endangering human lives.
atreides1
(16,076 posts) AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Ask the last guy I administered CPR to how paranoid I am.
proud2BlibKansan
(96,793 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)rocktivity
(44,576 posts)The sheriff's office says detectives are still investigating the shooting. No charges have been filed."
Well, charges SHOULD be filed, especially if Zambrana wasn't the legal owner of the gun. Criminally negligent homicide, at the very least?
rocktivity
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)The idiot handling the gun pulled the trigger.
I'm not familiar with this pistol but how about locking the slide back.
rocktivity
(44,576 posts)
rocktivity
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)Just like every other simi-auto pistol I know.
Cardinal gun rule: All guns are loaded - all the time. Unless they are in pieces on the table- Put the pieces back together and assume once again the gun is loaded.
A Fool pulled the trigger and a young woman dies- Stupid is as stupid does.
tech_smythe
(190 posts)am I the only one who finds that amusing.... putting the complete fucking tragedy aside.
I mean really...
showing off your gun IN A HOUSE OF GOD!?!?
now that I think about it... the Catholic priests have been doing that for centuries
safeinOhio
(32,674 posts)guns and bibles, make sure the safety is on and they are not loaded.
For those that think they need a gun in church, I say "oh ye of little faith".
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)We got laws against damn hear everything but being a fucking idiot.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)No charges have been filed YET.
At the very least, there's going to be a civil suit.
tech_smythe
(190 posts)Seriously, how fucking stupid does someone have to be to even bring a GUN TO CHURCH, LOADED, let alone FIRE ONE!?!?!?!??!
i suppose it's irony in action.
all those redneck gun humpers got what they wanted.
gun in church
after all who could have foreseen this happening.
BTW here in Minnesota, where the MAJORITY of gun owners are responsible, you see "Guns banned on these premises" everywhere... honestly like you need to have that sign at your job..... ok where i was working was in fact evil, but that's besides the point.
that you even NEED such signs in the 21st century bothers me.
rocktivity
(44,576 posts)during a lecture in gun safety by a law enforcement "professional":
rocktivity
Rhiannon12866
(205,267 posts)
Johnson20
(315 posts)Just who are those "redneck gun humpers" that you refer to? Are you just naturally hyperbolic or did you train for it?
I'm sure nothing like this could ever happen in the garden spot that is Minnesota.
safeinOhio
(32,674 posts)There are a lot of "redneck gun humpers" in every state of the Union.
Johnson20
(315 posts)never heard of the Red Lake Massacre or the Hudson family murders. "Red neck gun humpers" and the use of the F word in every other sentence are, to me, bigoted statements that is why I'm asking him to be more specific in his rant, eg just who are red necks.
Tunkamerica
(4,444 posts)
grantcart
(53,061 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)If you claim "no", several millenia of history says that answer is wrong.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)See, if the gun hadn't been there, they would have been attacked by Templar Knights!
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)But feel free to run with arrogantly dismissive hyperbole. It seems to suit you....
safeinOhio
(32,674 posts)don't really believe, so god does not protect them. 
Tunkamerica
(4,444 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)I will accept your apology and retraction.
I suggest a good cup of coffee first.
Edit for clarity: Because I didn't claim anything like what you imply.
wial
(437 posts)It's not just me ...
Johnson20
(315 posts)There are many, many people, both on the left and the right that feel the American culture (whatever it is) is going to hell.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)There are occasonal tragedies like this with ANY implement, from gun, to automobile. They are rare, and yes, we should mock and punish the hell out of the person who did it, so more people PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE DOING, because even seemingly innocuous things can get people killed.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)seemingly innocuous things .... like a gun!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You know, all things that kill more people in ACCIDENTS every year, than firearms. (I posted the link to the CDC statistics, firearms don't even make the top 15 of things that kill people in accidents (even excluding falls of all types).
Accidents are bad, especially preventable ones that are caused by negligence, such as this one. That it was related to a firearm, is pretty much immaterial. Firearms in general, kill a statistically negligable number of people in this manner every year. If you want to get upset about negligence that results in life altering injury or death, you have a WHOOOOOLE lot more things to worry about than guns.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)But a gun is made to kill. It did its job. It's not a veg-o-matic, y'know.
Sing along...
"One of these thing is not like the other..."
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)300+ million firearms in circulation. 'Designed to kill' as you say. Only kill ~550 people a year, accidentally.
I wonder why they are so ineffective, in this manner, if the INTENT of the design of the inanimate object is relevant?
safeinOhio
(32,674 posts)and they are taken off the market. Perhaps allowing the gun to be fired with the mag out and one in the chamber is a design flaw.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Without knowing what firearm he had, and when it was made, it is impossible to know if this issue is relevant.
(We also don't ACTUALLY know the magazine was out of the weapon.)
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)And she wasn't even the one handling or in proximity to the gun.
Nothing in the headline which refers to "bodies of water", "sets of stairs", or "balconies".
safeinOhio
(32,674 posts)You must register a car, if driven on the road and transferring requires going to a government office and paying a fee.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Not in my state.
I only need to register and license a car I plan to operate on public roads.
Just like I have a license to carry a gun in public.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)
tblue
(16,350 posts)Guns in church. Right out of a cowboy movie. We have not evolved. Americans are way behind other civilized nations in so many ways. Only too many of us don't know enough about other countries to appreciate that. There is a better way.
otohara
(24,135 posts)sad sorry state of this nation and it's love of guns.
tech_smythe
(190 posts)and know to leave their weapons unloaded, safety on, and locked up at home when not in use / hunting.
I just can't believe this stupid fucking redneck
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)That must be why there is a sad story of some idiot gun owner killing someone "accidentally" or their kids finding their gun and killing themselves or someone "accidentally" every fucking day in this country.
tech_smythe
(190 posts)there are 365 days in a year. 1 story/day (not realistic but whatever) = .01%
I'd say those are "good" numbers.
tragedies happen. you can't make everything illegal just because it's for our own good.
remember the political spectrum isn't a line, it's a circle.... at some point extreme liberalism shares the same results as extreme conservatism... control over every faucet of life.
parents are careless for one moment... kids are never properly taught... kids are curious...
it happens and it's tragic when it does.
but that's life.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Its just that bathtub drownings dont make news headlines.
saras
(6,670 posts)2000 statistics
Drowning and submersion while in or falling into bath-tub: 341
Crime...
[Accidental] Firearms discharge: 776
[Intentional] Firearms discharge (murder): 230
Legal intervention involving firearm discharge (killed by cop or firing squad): 270
Poisoning: 2,557
Event of undetermined intent: 3,819
total murder (including other categories): 16,765, which is reasonably close to the 15,586 listed at http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
Intentional self-harm: 29,350
some trends...
Twice as many suicides with guns as murders with guns. Keeping guns out of the hands of potential suicides is more valuable than keeping guns out of the hands of murderers.
Twice as many accidental deaths with guns as murders with guns. Keeping gun accidents from happening is more valuable than keeping guns out of the hands of murderers.
Ten times as many poisonings as shootings. Concealed carry permits for cleaning products?
Hot tap water kills more people than poisonous snakes and lizards.
more at http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Here are some other dangers that are MUCH greater than that of a firearm discharge...
Falls 13,322
Accidental drowning and submersion 3,482
Assault by sharp object 1,805
Occupant of all-terrain or other off-road motor vehicle 717
Drowning and submersion while in or falling into swimming-pool 567
The point is, there are so many things in this world that are MUCH MORE DANGEROUS. Lets deal with those things before we take away rights, ok?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)But the gun did its job beautifully. Killing things is WHAT A GUN IS FOR. Swimming pools, not so much.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)My gun has done nothing but put holes in targets. Never killed anyone or anything. Probable never will either.
Maybe I am misusing it then?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Yes.
You're just practicing.
If your goal is just to hit a bullseye, try darts.
Or are you seriously telling me that guns are merely made and designed for paper targets. Is the target shaped like a man? or has the silhouette of a man on it? A lot do. I wonder where that came from????
See, all logic flies out the window. Guns! These days, it's just like jousting! Just for fun!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)All depends on the intent and capability of the person holding it.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Basically what you're saying is we can't even start to regulate gun safety until all other sources of accidental deaths are reduced to less than what gun deaths cause.
For further reading, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
Every single right you have is regulated in one form or another. I'm pretty sure the "right" of a mental midget to carry a loaded pistol to church doesn't trump the right of an innocent girl to life. If idiots are going to use their "rights" in such a way that infringes on the rights of others, those rights can and should be regulated. It's that simple.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Really, 12 year old data?
2009: 554 ACCIDENTAL firearm deaths.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/acc-inj.htm
At this rate of decline in accidental shootings, and the increase in accidental drownings, one might guess that in the next 10 years, that will flip. Indeed, the two are within spitting distance of each other already. (Accidental firearm deaths have been trending down steadily since the 50's.)
waddirum
(979 posts)The news has been non-stop about Whitney Houston's bathtub drowning for the past week.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)11,493 homicides committed with firearms in 2009.
Of these homicides, Accidental discharge of firearms (W32-W34): 554.
More than 80 million people with immediate access to firearms. 554 accidental gun-related deaths in 2009.
Pretty simple fucking math, yo.
(Excluding suicides with firearms, which numbered over 18,000)
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/acc-inj.htm
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)That sort of reasoning is why people wrongly claim the crime rate is constantly on the rise.
If something a large chunk of a country of 330 million people do is potentially dangerous but kills an average of two people a day, then yes, the overwhelming majority of them are clearly being responsible about it.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)And the relatively low number by comparison of accidents, then yes, the majority are responsible.
otohara
(24,135 posts)if only that were the case.
Innocent people get killed everyday outside the home in our gun loving nation.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Then gun safety laws shouldn't bother them at all.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Just a nit, but the safeties on many pistols only come into play if the weapon is cocked and ready.
tblue
(16,350 posts)If every gun was destroyed, I wouldn't waste any tears on it. I'd 
That's what I'd do.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Last edited Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:29 PM - Edit history (1)
midnight armadillo
(3,612 posts)without even reading the post...
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)(PS- I live in Texas)
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)who encouraged the flock to come strapped to services. As ye reap....
tblue37
(65,340 posts)aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)And sadly a woman is dead.
Four simple rules prevent things like this from happening.
All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)One simple rule prevents this from happening:
Don't carry a gun.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)I've had excellent luck with that, thank you very much. Lived in the South for 55 years. Never carried one.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)Others have a right to make different decisions.
safeinOhio
(32,674 posts)there is one basic law when it applies to gun handling. It's Murphy's Law, anything that can go wrong, will. Too many stories about long time, experienced gun owners and even safety instructors doing the same thing. Just like we have laws that help lower the deaths from car accidents, we need laws that help lower injury and death from gun use. Not a ban, just regulations on handling and sales.
aikoaiko
(34,169 posts)But in this case person A was showing person B the gun and it appears neither cleared the chamber and then pulled the trigger.
We already have laws that related to injuries and death due to reckless behavior which I would think should apply here. But I can't see making a law saying that you can't show someone or let them handle your gun.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)What Would Jesus Pack?
left on green only
(1,484 posts)I'm surprised that I had never seen it before. It is the kind of art I would expect to see hanging on many a wall in the living rooms of this Yosemite town. Yesiree, just a clingin to their guns and religion. How many times can you say "right wing red neck neofascist nazi" in succession without becoming tongue tied?
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)
LiberalLovinLug
(14,173 posts)Its kind of bitterly ironic.
In a church worshiping a deity that is a pacifist ("turn the other cheek" "love thy enemies" etc..) an arms sale happens. Not just any weapon but one specifically designed not to hunt game, but to shoot people. Maybe God was trying to send a message to those that worship the almighty gun over Him?
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)for allowing this to happen in His own house
LiberalLovinLug
(14,173 posts)...God does.
bloomington-lib
(946 posts)They're idiots but it's a tragedy for everyone involved.
secondvariety
(1,245 posts)a couple miles from where I live. Senseless crap like this happens so often around here I'm almost numb to it.
I guess the slaughter of innocents is the price that has to be paid for living in a country saturated with firearms. Pity.
Nihil
(13,508 posts)... oh, wait ...
Odin2005
(53,521 posts) Response to SecularMotion (Original post)
Post removed
rocktivity
(44,576 posts)
rocktivity
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Anyone who owns a firearm should know the ins and outs of the gun and should also know the basics of making the weapon cold. This is gross negligence. You always -ALWAYS - pull back the slide after removing the magazine to ensure that a round is not chambered. The person you hand it too should also do that, even if they just watched you do it. Even better is to lock back the slide before handing it to someone.
Lasher
(27,579 posts)It takes a second to chamber a round when you're ready to shoot. This precaution should be practiced in addition to the etiquette you described.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Pull the trigger on my firearm, and it goes bang. Just like it's supposed to.
The point is, you don't fuck around with a firearm. Especially if you don't KNOW how it works, and don't know or don't respect Cooper's 4 rules.
Had he paid attention to the FIRST DAMN RULE, the gun could have gone off, and it would have hurt no-one because it would have been pointed in a safe direction, rather than a thin wall with no idea what is on the other side.
Lasher
(27,579 posts)Maybe you need to quick draw.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Probably why it's been selected by so many police departments as a duty weapon.
Lasher
(27,579 posts)But there's nothing like an empty chamber to make sure the pistol doesn't go off unless I want it to. Sorry you disagree.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Trigger safety
Grip safety
Striker blocking drop safety
Out of battery safety
and most of all, it's a striker-fired weapon, and racking the slide doesn't charge the striker, only pulling the trigger does. (This is why some complain of the 'hard' trigger pull on the Springfield XD and Glock)
It does lack a magazine disconnect, but adds a tactile cocked indicator, and chamber loaded indicator.
Excellent firearm. Unless it is gripped in a human hand and the trigger pulled, it will not fire. Works exactly as I expect a firearm to work, pick it up, grip it, pull the trigger, bang. No combination of mishaps seems to result in it being able to fire otherwise, and it corrects the problem of the Glock shooting people in the ass upon re-holstering, if a strap or something gets inside the trigger guard. You cannot engage the grip safety while holstering it. Therefore, even if something gets in the trigger guard, it cannot fire.
If I carried a 1911 (not to denigrate the weapon, at all, it's a fine pistol) I would likely keep the chamber empty as well. It's just a design difference. (Hammer vs. striker, and all that)
Lasher
(27,579 posts)That means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the safety is off. I'm not picking up what you are laying down.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)the term condition 0 technically doesn't quite apply. Same 'state' though.
Closest analogy for a DAO pistol.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Just curious, what environment is that? Is this a legal or job-related requirement?
Lasher
(27,579 posts)I use my guns for hunting, recreational shooting, and home defense. I and sometimes carry a concealed pistol when I travel.
By "environment" I was thinking about a combat zone. If I were in one I'd probably keep a round chambered.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)...by any reputable self-defense shooting instructors that I am aware of.
Lasher
(27,579 posts)None has ever advised me I should always keep a round chambered in a semi-auto pistol.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)cocked-and-locked is the recommendation by every instructor I've ever heard of. Numerous other reasons as well. YMMV.
Lasher
(27,579 posts)I like the gun and qualified as expert. I now have one that's the same model government-issue handgun. It is my primary home defense weapon.
In the Army our standard method of carry was Condition Three (chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down). A combat situation is different. There you would be in Condition One (A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on). Noise is an issue, you see. Then you would turn the safety off if you were to engage an enemy. I was never in a combat situation though.
I usually release my safety with my left hand (I am right handed). I have found this method to be more reliable, particularly in a stressful situation. And with the safety inadvertently left on, Mr. Gun cannot be your advocate. But I'll admit, I have sometimes released the safety with the gun hand.
I am concerned about your one-handed scenario. While it is possible one-handed shooting might be appropriate, the two-handed Weaver Stance is used by all competent shooters I know. To facilitate this, I normally ask a friend to hold my beer while I'm shooting. I encourage you to use the Weaver Stance if at all possible, and it almost always is. And for the love of God, please tell me you don't hold your gun sideways and shoot one-handed 'gangsta' style.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)The "empty chamber" rule in the military came about, in large part, due to the severe risk-phobia, spotless-promotion record hysteria endemic to non-combat units and politically-motivated rank-grabbers. It is laughed at by any serious student/instructor of defensive shooting.
It is also a result of piss-poor training back when the standard pistol sidearm of the military was the 1911. Designed to be carried loaded, chambered and cocked, with the manual safety ON, it was frequently used improperly by people who's pistol training consisted of 50 rounds a year on qualification day. Most rifle and pistol training in the military is frankly quite awful and coursory. I just went through M9 qualification for the USAF. 4 hour class. That is not nearly enough, and there are some serious deficiencies in the quality and depth of the curiculum and instructors. Thankfully, my co-worker, also a shooting enthusiast and CCW, was sitting beside the guy in class (front row...
) who was using a grip that would have resulted in his left thumb being, at best, dislocated and cut, if not amputated. 
Note that we were taught to have the pistol loaded, chambered and de-cocked, safety off. Requires a fairly long double-action trigger pull, very different from a 1911.
For the record, my personal off-duty carry gun is a 1911, carried C&L.
Also for the record, one-handed shooting is a universally recognised method. It should be taught and practised as a secondary method by all defensive carriers. It is used in several competition formats (including the Olympics, derived from military skills/methods) and taught in any competent self-defense shooting course. I generally shoot from a Weaver stance and can do so either left or right handed. I also practice single handed (though not sideways, as such) and in a variety of postions, standing, crouched, kneeling and prone.
Lasher
(27,579 posts)I didn't know they let you guys have sidearms. Just kidding, thanks for your service.
I guess you could say I have "severe risk-phobia."
The M1911 was not designed to always be "chambered and cocked, with the manual safety ON." The environment dictates its configuration. In some environments it should be in Condition 4 (The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun).
We are discussing a civilian environment where safety is more important than a quick-draw or stealth. As you have pointed out, there are uninformed people who are carrying guns around. For example, how many people know that the single action M1911, unlike more modern firearms in its class, lacks a firing pin block? If you don't know that, and its implications, then you won't understand why you shouldn't be carrying one of them around in Condition 2 (A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down).
Logic therefore dictates a setup that is as idiot proof as possible, while still maintaining a reasonable degree of readiness. Condition 3 (The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun) satisfies this requirement.
For a supporting example we need look no further than the tragedy in the OP. That young woman would still be alive today if the young man had kept his firearm in Condition 3. If there are "serious student/instructor(s) of defensive shooting" who are laughing about that, I don't want to know them.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)grip, thumb and the one between the ears.
If one is concerned about the "risk" of a fully loaded gun, one needs more training, or possibly simply should not carry a firearm.
And the young woman in question would still be alive if the gun-handler had not violated all four of the famous four safety rules for guns.
I think that people with lesser training, trying to cock or load under duress, would be much more likely to fumble or experience an AD/ND due to having more opportunity to fumble while stressed.
And thank you for your service, someone has to ride in my aerial battle taxi... 
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Any other time, I never chamber a round, but I always assume that one is chambered and prove the weapon cold (like above) when disarming it. In defensive carry, which I just about never do, you want the weapon ready to fire in case you need to withdraw it quickly.
Lasher
(27,579 posts)When I chamber a round the safeties are off and the gun is ready to go. I doubt if you can disengage your one or more safeties any faster than I can pull the slide back and let it go. I wish the guy in the story would have had an empty chamber.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)On the 1911 for instance, all it takes is a flip of the thumb, which can be carried out while still rising to target. The grip safety is taken care of once you grab the gun.
You mentioned a third safety which I don't seem to have, but I have mostly older 1911s.
I realize that an empty chamber is always effective and it would have prevented this tragedy, but for concealed carry I was always taught to have the gun ready with safety on. In the end, it's the owners responsibility to disarm the weapon properly. And it really isn't hard. Locking the slide back is a pretty damned effective way of proving the gun isn't loaded. Also following the basic NRA rules, like not pointing the gun at things you don't want to destroy and knowing what lies beyond the target prevent these kind of accidents.
I should say - prevents these kind of accidents if you know what you are doing. And sadly, many don't.
Lasher
(27,579 posts)I know it is inappropriate to count it as a safety. I just wanted to see if anybody was smart enough to call me on it. I'm glad to see you are.
Regardless, half-cock has often been used for this purpose with the M1911 - particularly by those who are left-handed.
Here is a reply of mine from elsewhere in this thread and here is a relevant article that might catch your interest.
I understand that there are different schools of thought on this, and I know the improved safeties of more modern pistols can better justify carrying a pistol with a round in the chamber. And I admit that I'm biased in favor of my M1911 training, and it's hard to teach this old dog new tricks.
But as a plain old civilian, safety is more important to me than readiness. I would rather die than accidentally shoot someone else. As you point out, Condition 3 (The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun) is safer than Condition 1 (A round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied). Probably most importantly, Condition 3 is more idiot proof.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I never use that, but I also don't put the hammer back with a round chambered. If you screw it up your hand is in hurt city, so I do leave my defense 1911 in condition 3.
I never carry a handgun anyhow. Part of it is I don't have the lightweight reduced size handguns designed for it. Even a commander size (4 inch barrel) 1911A1 is just too heavy and bulky for regular concealed carry. The only reason so many nutmeggers have concealed carry permits is Connecticut requires one to transport a handgun by car, including to the range.
Lasher
(27,579 posts)But when I do it's usually a little .38 special 5-shot revolver. The hammer is down on an empty cylinder. I got the web belt and military holster, clip pouches, and even an M7 bayonet to go with my M1911 so that I would have a setup just like I had on guard duty. OK, I didn't take the bayonet on guard duty but I did qualify with it. And it looks cool attached to my Mossberg 591.
I also got the shoulder holster for the M1911, like the ones that pilots and tank crews use. That's the best way to carry this pistol concealed, but even this way the M1911 is big and heavy just like you say.
But what a fine handgun it is! Mine is a century old and still purrs like a kitten. The only problem I have with it is, it's one of the early models that will pinch the shit out of your hand if you're not careful.
Did you know the M1911 is still being used by the US military? Some combat soldiers are finding out that the 9MM just doesn't knock them down for good like the M1911.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)when it comes to the absurdity you can find in Florida. So sad. 
juajen
(8,515 posts)The bullet just happens to shoot his fiance in the head? Wonder if he took out a life insurance policy on her. Can't cure stupid. If they are stupid enough to be dealing firearms in a church, they are stupid enough to plan a murder. Just make sure it's not the fiance that is pulling the trigger (or was it?). Then split the money. Accidental shooting my foot. Something smells here.
Mr_Jefferson_24
(8,559 posts)... a very thorough investigation, hopefully to include polygraph exams for the men involved.
fujiyama
(15,185 posts)Don't get me wrong. I actually don't have a problem with responsible gun ownership, or even CCWs necessarily, but the idea of selling guns in a place of worship just seems plain weird...But then again, I always got the impression that Jesus guy was a peaceful dude.
First of all, I don't understand how anyone accidentally pulls a trigger unless it's done by a child. Don't people check for the safety and see if a gun is loaded for Christ's sake? These are just fucking basics. I have friends and they own guns and they're responsible and don't keep it loaded at all times. I have shot guns at ranges.
No matter what, you have to respect the power in that fucking device. The minute you don't, someone can get hurt or killed. This idiot (and that's an understatement) should spend the rest of his life in prison. This kind of "mistake" is simply unacceptable.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)In many of the small towns I grew up in, churches were used as common gathering locations for a variety of non-religous events, being often the largest set of facilities available locally.
Tripod
(854 posts)But I think it has all been said by now. I'm sure there is more. So sad though.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)and sell in a church? How special for them.. unfortunately, the accidental deaths due to people carrying guns will just have to be the price people pay. Stupid, irresponsible and completely unnecessary nor a necessity, but hey, it can cost a life and that is just fine.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)is you. Ponder that.
fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)was it worth it?
Seeing as to how americans in american society have survived WITHOUT it, pleased tell us all how her death was worth it.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Hence why the deal was being conducted in a closet.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)There are social norms, such as not spitting in church, that one just follows. I doubt they would have been in a closet if it had been so socially acceptable.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)I had some of my Boy Scout firearms classes in churches.
I really don't know what you are talking about. And I don't think you do either. Legal Display of a fiream does not equal spitting in a church.
Shooting someone by accident/negligence is, of course, far worse, and deserves appropriate punishment. I don't think any of the pro-choice people here will say otherwise.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)I stand by my words.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)does not have the capacity to use it properly. Furthermore, if you are attacked with a knife or grappled to the ground, a gun will not save you, and in fact may work against you.
Carrying hand guns provides a false sense of security. Most of the people that defend this use emotion not logic to try to explain why it should remain so.
As for this business transaction, a church is a public venue like a mall despite being privately owned.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)www.guncite.com
www.keepandbeararms.com
No-one claims that a firearm is effective for all situations, but they can be effective in a wide variety of circumstances.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)gotta love those pro-gun propaganda websites...
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)or that those cites do not have evidence that refutes her/his claims?
truthisfreedom
(23,146 posts)Absolutely bizarre circumstances. The story of this girl's death will, I hope, cause more sensible decisions regarding handguns in the future.
solarman350
(136 posts)I'll bet Jesus is a Crack Shot!
well - we live in a trailer
at the edge of town
you never see us
cause we don't come around
we got twenty five rifles
to keep the population down
but we need you now
that's why i'm hangin round
so you be good to me and i'll be good to you
and in this land of conditions
i am not above suspicion
i won't attack you but
i won't back you, yeah
well - it's so good to be here
asleep on your lawn
remember your guard dog
i'm afraid that's gone
it was such a drag to hear him
whining all night long
yeah - that was me with the doves
setting them free near the factory
where you built your computer - love
i hope you get the connection
cause i can't take the rejection
i don't believe you
i don't believe you
i'm a barrel of laughs
with my carbine on
i keep em hoppin
till the ammunition's gone
but i'm still not happy
feel like something's wrong
i got the revolution blues
i see bloody fountains
and a ten million dune buggies
comin' down the mountains
i hear that laurel canyon
is full of famous stars
but i hate them worse than lepers
and i'll kill them in their cars
wordpix
(18,652 posts)If the gun buyer and seller are doing a secretive gun deal in a closet and the girl is "in the church" as opposed to being in the closet with them, how did she "accidentally" get shot?
The bullet just happened to go off in the closet and just happened to hit her outside the closet? 
I guess it's possible but it's also possible one of these guys was pointing a gun at her.
yardwork
(61,599 posts)This story sounds very fishy to me.
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Some triangle/jealousy thing?
Police overlooked this classic motive?
But if you're a pastor, you think everything's OK!
Brettongarcia
(2,262 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 20, 2012, 11:58 AM - Edit history (1)
wordpix
(18,652 posts)Gun went off in closet and accidentally hit girl in head; she was outside closet.
Still sounds fishy.
I don't think police are overlooking. I think they're trying to get the story but so far, that is it.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)What a needless loss of a young woman. I feel for her family.
NOI4I
(34 posts)Latest stories, I read.
Relentless Bitch
(17 posts)Anything more need to be said???
nanabugg
(2,198 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts) geeshPavePusher
(15,374 posts)wordpix
(18,652 posts) Why not out in the open on the steps of the church, or in the pews? Why in the church at all? Why is the buyer not buying a gun at WalMart or a gun store where he has to pass a background check?
You pro-gun people really have to be blind, deaf and DUMB (pun intended)
to think nothing fishy was going on here and this was a completely legal sale. The law recognizes intent. If the gun buyer intended to buy a legal gun, the fact that he's buying in a church closet is just a slight 
tip that this gun deal was not legal.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)..(yeah, bad plan there) and not being under the Mrs. Grundy-gaze of various moral hysterics (see much of this thread), i.e. didn't want to disturb the other people. Remember that Florida is a non-open-carry state where any non-defensive public display of a firearm (even accidental) can be construed by idiots as a crime.
Occasional personal sales are quite legal in FLorida, venue is irrelevent. You have no proof of your assertions. If evidence to support them surfaces, I will, of course, concede the debate.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)either. Besides, I never said it's a definite illegal sale, I said it looks bad and probably was.
Bad idea to carry weapons into a church, anyhow, considering it's not a shooting gallery and the history of guns in churches.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Going to a private area to display a firearm is merely good manners in some places, not any ready clue of criminal intent.
I carry a sidearm many places. Has nothing to do with "shooting gallery(s)".
Edit: People keep refering to "closet" like it's some sort of subterfuge. Closet has a wide range of meanings. My current office building has closets that range from phone-booth size for brooms, to one that big enough to be a three-person office (that's what it once was), and is currently a storage- and work-room. I think there's too much negative emphasis on that word in absence of evidence.
According to the update below, I don't think any criminal intent was involved. A horribly tragic event due to breaking all four common safety rules of handling firearms. I hope the individuals who cuased this get punished appropriately. Certainly seems like Negligent Homocide to me.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)PavePusher
(15,374 posts)you've succeeded. I'm not sure what other conclusion to draw, since all those incidents were actually criminal attacks and had nothing to do with negligence. It is interesting to note that in the instance where a shooter attacked a defended church (the Dec 2009 incident, actually one shooter who hit two locations), the only person who died was... the shooter. Not nearly enough, in isolation, to indicate a trend, but there's plenty of other evidence out there.
By the way, it seems I was editing my comment while you replied to me, not sure if that changes anything, but my apology for the incompleteness on the first go-around.
wordpix
(18,652 posts)Personally, I work in a crummy, crime-ridden part of my city but no one has ever bothered me as I walk down the street. Of course, I am going to/from work in daylight and I would never walk there alone at night but still...living in fear all the time and feeling the need to carry a firearm is not what I want to do.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)we may not be able to communicate effectively.
The "wild west" really wasn't, and isn't. Check some actual history, not fictional novels and movies. Louis L'Amour is fun to read, but nothing was even close to as rowdy as portrayed in his, or similar, stories.
Crime happens in all areas, not merely "crummy" parts of cities. And it's not evenly distributed one-per-person. There are approx. 1.5 million violent crimes per year. Some people experience are victims multiple times, some not at all. There's a bell-curve on the chart, with two extremes. And I'm glad you have not been a victim. But your experience is, sadly, not universal.
"...living in fear all the time..." Ummm, no, preparedness is not equal to "fear". Having fire extinguishers does not mean I'm fearful of fire. It just means I've been in both house and car fires in the past, and want to have handy tools for possibly dealing with such in the future. I am not fearful because I have first aid kits available, it is because I've dealth with injuries and want to have basic supplies to do so again, if required. I carry a defensive firearm because I've been a victim of violence in the past, and want to have tools to help protect myself until help can arrive. In fact, you are the one who states "...I would never walk there alone at night...". Surely if you didn't fear something, that would not be an issue, correct?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Might be the only thread on DU this year in which the church itself is not vilified for the actions of its members-- as the pros and cons of our Yosemite Sams are discussed instead.
Bang. Bang. Shoot. Shoot.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)They are not. Anyone who goes to a church with a gun is a sick fuck. Anyone who spends multiple cycles thinking of ways that taking a gun to church might be a good idea is not normal, and not deserving of a seat at the adult table. Anyone who jumps in the middle of any gun death story to find a way to rationalize the continued use of guns is a death cult fetishist and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.
No, I don't mind if normal people have guns. One of the hallmarks of the sane is that they realize there are places and situations in which guns should not be present. These aren't the people I'm talking about.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)under what moral/legal principles defensive weapons have no place in church. Because history seems to indicate otherwise. Churches of all faiths/denominations have had defensive weapons for millenia.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Churches of all faiths/denominations have had defensive weapons for millenia. "
Hence the argument that contemporary American churches are in need of motes, crenelated walls, and murder holes in the sanctuary is valid?
(Else we are forced to conclude that the possibility exists that contemporary American churches have no traditional need for defensive weapons, and that social mores do indeed often change historical precedent...)
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I don't think you do. I think you need to re-read what I wrote. It's a complete thought, and does not require me to answer further questions from a gun fetishist.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)What was unclear was your rationalization for it.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)And unless you can address the substance of my post (and you cannot), we are done.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)I can also identify childish name-calling when others run out of ideas and adult debate. You have not addressed any of my points. Feel free to do so at any time.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)The gunboy comment was fairly lame but did have a little bit of a smack-down feel to it.
Poorly formed sentences and lack of punctuation caused an automatic loss of two points.
Saying we are done is not a smack-down worthy phrase. While initially it appears you would be taking the upper hand when read, in most cases it’s a sign of smack-down weakness. For example, talking with my MIL about hoarding becomes fruitless when she clams up and says I’m done you don’t understand. She’s done because she has no footing, not because some great argument was won.
Overall – 3.5 out of 10-
Please continue-
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I'm humbled to be scored by a Telecom Alley CCNP, but not very humbled.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)LOL
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)I'd have given it about a 1.8.... but having been in the USAF for over 20 years, I think I've been playing in a more competitive league, so my judgement may be biased.
YMMV. 
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)...if you seriously believe that it should be legally allowable to conduct unsupervised firearms transactions inside of cramped church closets, then you are clearly not intelligent enough to be trusted around any firearm.
ileus
(15,396 posts)well two actually. This past Sunday I carried in a Fobus holster, once shorts season hits, I'll return to using a pocket holster.
Remember trouble doesn't make an appointment...go prepared.
ileus
(15,396 posts)well two actually. This past Sunday I carried in a Fobus holster, once shorts season hits, I'll return to using a pocket holster.
Remember trouble doesn't make an appointment...go prepared.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Remmah2
(3,291 posts)Are you suggesting treating 2A people like they use to treat minorities?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)And no, I am not suggesting it, it is a fact that there is a gungeon. Take it up with the administrators.
Response to SecularMotion (Original post)
Post removed
wordpix
(18,652 posts)snip:
Investigators say church member Moises Zambrana, a local security officer, was showing his Ruger 9mm to Kelley's boyfriend, Dustin Bueller, and another man in a church closet when the gun went off.
The single round tore through a wall and into the next room where it hit Kelley in the head, piercing her brain.
The three men had gathered in the closet after Bueller told Zambrana he was thinking of buying a gun after he turned 21 and Zambrana offered to show him his firearm, police said.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/florida-pastor-daughter-dies-gunshot-wound-suffered-church-accident-article-1.1025362#ixzz1mwvXvXgs
SaintPete
(533 posts)was the dead woman's fiancée?
As if this story wasn't tragic enough, it has to have an added layer of tragedy.
And I might say, it's might freaking suspicious, don't you think?
"Investigators have said Moises Zambrana was showing his gun in a small closet to another church member interested in buying a firearm. The St. Petersburg Times reports (http://bit.ly/w9KoLn ) that the other church member, Dustin Bueller, was Hannah Kelley's fiancée. "
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)This thing is bad enough without inventing CT's about it.
Evasporque
(2,133 posts)you can't argue with that.
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)But hey, empirical evidence is simply an obstruction to accurate emotion, right?
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)Someone had to simultaneously violate at least two of the basic rules of gun safety for this incident to occur.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Guns don't "just go off"
PavePusher
(15,374 posts)Unless you think they can see through walls to a specific target?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)obamanut2012
(26,068 posts)And lock the slide in the open position. You also need to know if your handgun has a magazine disconnect. You never, ever point it anywhere a person may be. And you never, ever put your finger on the trigger, ever, unless you are planning to shoot the gun at that moment.
What an idiot. What a tragedy.
