Saddleback Church Says Rick Warren’s Son Has Committed Suicide

[Leslie Valley]

Source: CBS

LAKE FOREST (CBSLA.com) — Pastor Rick and Kay Warren’s youngest son, Matthew, has committed suicide, Saddleback Valley Community Church announced Saturday.

The evangelical megachurch announced the death of the 27-year-old in a statement.

Described as “an incredibly kind, gentle and compassionate young man whose sweet spirit was encouragement and comfort to many,” the statement said Matthew suffered from mental illness that resulted in deep depression and suicidal thoughts. He died Friday night.

“Despite the best healthcare available, this was an illness that was never fully controlled and the emotional pain resulted in his decision to take his life,” the statement said.

Read more: http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/04/06/saddleback-church-says-rick-warrens-son-has-committed-suicide/

[ZombieHorde]

1. Devestating.

A student in my American Lit class two semesters ago killed himself. He struggled with schizophrenia, and heard voices. Our class made a card for his parents and sent it to them.

[Hekate]

4. Completely uncalled-for comment

Pain is pain. Those of us who have lost a child for any reason understand that.

[Faygo Kid]

5. +1.

That was just nasty. We don't yet know the specifics.

[No Vested Interest]

7. I agree with Hekate.

Speculation on reasons for the death of a person based only on a brief news alert is over-the-top.
Think what you will privately.
There's a time to speak and a time not to speak.

[CincyDem]

8. There is no question that pain is pain. And...

...it is an unfortunate challenge of today's environment that many young individual, both male and female, find their family's unwillingness (or inability) to accept who they are at their core as an insurmountable life challenge.

We'll never know what caused this young man to chose this solution but this is a possibility, especially in a family defined by it's purposeful unwillingness to accept people as they are (rather that try to change people into being different from who they are).

I abhor his father's politics and I grieve deeply for his unimaginable loss. I'm not sure any political transgression can ever rationalize wishing this kind of pain on anyone.

[FarPoint]

39. It has happened much too often...

so the reply has foundation....The thought did cross my mind as well.

[mac56]

6. Good lord, man.

Show some compassion.

[iandhr]

77. +1

[honeyward]

10. Nail on Head!

That is exactly the first thing I thought.

[DURHAM D]

11. You joined up just to make this ignorant comment?

[Faygo Kid]

13. +2

Likely troll.

[SpartanDem]

24. No likely about it.

[Salviati]

54. If this is their first post on this board, they have nothing useful to contribute.

Full Ignore. Don't need to wait for the pizza.

[elfin]

15. Me too - shame on me eom

[Ken Burch]

27. It's likely we ALL thought it.

We didn't all post it, though.

My condolences to this young man's family, whatever the reason for his decision to take this sad path.

[RKP5637]

30. Yep. n/t

[nolabear]

32. Please have some respect. Or go elsewhere.

[firenewt]

37. Respect is earned - Goodbye, I am now going somewhere else. Don't agree with you, so I should

leave. Done

[nolabear]

56. Not directed at you. At the one poster.

[awoke_in_2003]

64. Oh he'll, and I was just about to post this...

http://m.

[LanternWaste]

196. Disrespect is earned. Respect is the default position.

Disrespect is earned. Respect is the default position.

[calimary]

41. Welcome to DU, honeyward!

Good to have you with us.

Hey, none of us knows what really happened in that family. However, as I said farther down thread, it is NOT an unreasonable assumption to make, considering the political-social climate and the bad attitudes and prejudices many people still have about gays. Young people have so much to process and make peace with, Just As Is. Even the ones who are purportedly what society would define as "normal." And it's something that we've seen happen before to other families.

It's hurtful all around. And you know that, as parents, the Warrens will always wonder what they could have done, or done differently, that might have avoided this outcome. So incredibly sad. I mean - just think for a moment. Suicide is regarded as a very grievous sin in many religions. Used to be, from my understanding being a Catholic, that if you committed suicide, you were not allowed to be buried in a Catholic cemetery. It was a taboo. And it wasn't discussed. And it was a huge shaming. So imagine you're a kid in that family where the ongoing belief system is that homosexuality is an abomination against God. What if your family has a head-of-household who goes out on TV and the lecture circuit pounding away at this belief system in as high-profile a way as Rick Warren sought out for himself. What if you hear it again and again - "homosexuality is a sin before God," and yet when you're brushing your teeth in the morning and you look in the mirror something deep down inside you says - "but that is also ME." I can't imagine a more painful existence! I can't imagine what would contribute more to a serious depression or inner instability.

But how do we know, as well, whether this family's heartbreak might ultimately lead to something healing for other families - and more importantly, prevention of even one other suicide? If perhaps (and of course, ASSUMING THE SPECULATION IS TRUE) this were confronted and discussed, maybe it would be the critical-mass moment for other families with this inner struggle - the way many gun afficionados have been moved to change some of their attitudes about gun ownership after the Sandy Hook tragedy smacked them in the face? Because this stuff happens. AS speculated here - even if it seems unkind or too blunt. Unfortunately, this shit does happen.

[Melinda]

55. ^^^THIS^^^

[Ian David]

14. That's pretty darn likely, whether or not people like to hear it. n/t

[Faygo Kid]

18. Why don't you wait to find out the facts

"Likely," Mr. Expert? Get a brain, moran.

[dsc]

20. It is natural to wonder

given the statistics of suicides and lgbt. Assuming both a 6% LGBT population and a 5 times more likely to commit suicide, you get 30% of suicides being lgbt. That said, that still leaves 70% not lgbt. Regardless this is a very sad thing. It sounds like Matt was battling depression for decades.

[AlbertCat]

46. That's pretty darn likely,

Indeed. But just as likely as he might have lost his faith and couldn't deal. He may have realized that his father's god doesn't exist.

There are a host of reasons his life in such a judgmental environment that depends on magic and a cult of personality could have become unbearable. All of them sad.

[Divine Discontent]

88. "He may have realized that his father's god doesn't exist."

you have no shame.

[AlbertCat]

92. you have no shame.

Nonsense. I just don't believe in fairy tales.

[Divine Discontent]

95. You're the one who used the suicide of a man with lifelong depression to take a potshot at religion.

It's highly unlikely the deceased did what he did for the exactly specific reason you stated.


---Kay and I often marveled at his courage to keep moving in spite of relentless pain. I’ll never forget how, many years ago, after another approach had failed to give relief, Matthew said “ Dad, I know I’m going to heaven. Why can’t I just die and end this pain?” but he kept going for another decade.---

[BuddhaGirl]

138. And you're being judgemental about it

Projection much?

[amuse bouche]

117. Warren Sr is the one without shame

or decency

He supports Uganda's Kill The Gays Bill.That man is disgusting through and through

[ButterflyBlood]

135. Objectively false

http://www.christianpost.com/news/rick-warren-condemns-uganda-anti-gay-bill-after-faith-lgbt-groups-call-for-response-8628

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms and lines of attack against Warren that can be used without resorting to incorrect slander.

[amuse bouche]

143. No

It's true. He only backed down after the heat in the kitchen got a bit much for the bigot

[AngryOldDem]

21. Then if "you don't know," keep your opinions to yourself.

Reading some of the comments here, I'm getting the distinct impression that that is the situation people are hoping for. More pile-ons for Rick Warren and his wife.

Fact is, we don't know a damn thing about this situation, so why make it worse with speculation based on an agenda?

Let's just extend deepest sympathies to the young man's parents, and LEAVE IT AT THAT.

[truebluegreen]

23. As unkind as it may be, that was my first thought as well.

Fortunately, I'm not a Christian so I won't burn in hell for it.

My heart goes out to that young man, wherever he may be. I'm reserving judgment on the family.

[karynnj]

28. Or he was depressed as was said - and that can happen gay or straight;

rich or poor; brilliant or mediocre. This is not a time to try to make it fit your agenda.

[calimary]

34. Welcome to DU, OldRedneck!

Hey, good to have you here. Gotta admit - this was the first thing that crossed my mind, also.

Offspring with tangible emotional or psychological issues - in an environment that is possibly quite rigid, dictatorial, repressive/suppressive, and controlling - ESPECIALLY if religion of any sort is in the mix. How could it not be, in a household headed by a VERY public religious figure? Especially since Rick Warren made sure to question then-candidate Barack Obama in a VERY public forum that got a shit-ton of coverage, to make sure that he and his followers could be confident that the candidate's stand was "right" on the whole gay marriage thing. Doesn't anybody remember that? That was the biggest take-away from his televised interview with then-Senator Obama, and it got a massive amount of press. Imagine a child with inner confusions and doubts - being brought up on a household like that. I can't imagine how painful that would be! And to have to carry that around - the shame the son might have felt deep-down, the disappointment he may have assumed his father would feel towards him, the "failure" this might imply to someone brought up in that culture - where being gay is regarded as sinful. I'd shudder to think - if my father were out there pounding away on the superiority and, indeed, Godliness, of certain rigid belief systems, while inside myself knowing something about that just doesn't add up for me in my own personal reality. Depression that profound and deep stems from something deeper. How do we know this wasn't it?

Unfortunately, jumping to this kind of conclusion is sadly understandable in THIS politico-religious climate, among those who insist on bringing religious theory and dictates into EVERY issue.

I don't know how the Warrens were as parents. I don't know how tolerant or intolerant they were. I don't know what philosophy or moral code or ethical code they fed their kids with their breakfast cereal every morning. But if one of those kids starts feeling like the proverbial square peg in a round hole, results like what happened in their family are not completely surprising. Sad as hell. But, sadly, not surprising.

[CBHagman]

48. There are myriad reasons someone might commit suicide...

...so any rush to speculate is not in the job description of a mensch.

[dixiegrrrrl]

36. Hopefully the wisdom of not speaking every thought in one's head

will grow on you.
There are many reading this who have gone thru the always present heartache of losing a grown child.

[TheDebbieDee]

43. That was my first thought as well, OldRedneck.......

[Hekate]

3. How heartbreaking for his family

May the young man rest in peace at last, and may his family find solace...

Hekate

[qanda]

9. My heart goes out to Pastor Rick and his family

A friend of mine just lost her daughter to suicide and she is having an incredibly difficult time dealing with the loss. I don't wish this type of pain on anyone.

[ChazII]

12. Condolences to the family and friends

of Rev. Warren's son, Matthew.

[BeyondGeography]

16. Brutal

eom

[SunSeeker]

17. Sad.

More details from another article:

Warren described Matthew as "an incredibly kind, gentle, and compassionate man," as those who grew up with him would also say.

"He had a brilliant intellect and a gift for sensing who was most in pain or most uncomfortable in a room. He'd then make a bee-line to that person to engage and encourage them," he continued. "But only those closest knew that he struggled from birth with mental illness, dark holes of depression, and even suicidal thoughts. In spite of America's best doctors, meds, counselors, and prayers for healing, the torture of mental illness never subsided. Today, after a fun evening together with Kay and me, in a momentary wave of despair at his home, he took his life."

Warren said that he and his wife often marveled at Matthew's courage "to keep moving in spite of relentless pain."

"I'll never forget how, many years ago, after another approach had failed to give relief, Matthew said, 'Dad, I know I'm going to heaven. Why can't I just die and end this pain?' but he kept going for another decade," he wrote.


http://www.christianpost.com/news/rick-warrens-son-takes-own-life-after-lifelong-battle-with-mental-illness-93388/#KXGU22gmtypWKmUa.99

[bananas]

35. "he struggled from birth with mental illness" - wonder what it was? nt

[SunSeeker]

67. Apparently severe depression.

Rick Warren apparently went through depression himself. http://www.christianpost.com/news/rick-warren-biography-uncovers-rocky-marriage-depression-42115/

I remember reading Rick Warren's book, Purpose Driven Life, to see want all the fuss was about and being struck by a passage about the death of his father, who was also a preacher. He described his father's last words to him as something to the effect that he must bring more souls to the Lord. Not, "I love you," not "I'm proud of you, son."

[bananas]

83. Sounds like the depression was a result of something else.

AP quotes a statement from the church: "mental illness resulting in deep depression".

Sounds like the depression was a result of another mental illness.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iJ3XVP5CBNCa_tcsqLfusBqlBfnQ?docId=9bd0a89f4f9d4eedbf366a267e6e4cab

Church: Pastor Rick Warren's son commits suicide

(AP) – 1 hour ago

LAKE FOREST, Calif. (AP) — The Southern California church headed by popular evangelical Pastor Rick Warren announced Saturday that Warren's 27-year-old son has committed suicide.

Warren's Saddleback Valley Community Church said in a statement that Matthew Warren had struggled with mental illness and deep depression throughout his life.

"Matthew was an incredibly kind, gentle and compassionate young man whose sweet spirit was encouragement and comfort to many," the statement said.

"Unfortunately, he also suffered from mental illness resulting in deep depression and suicidal thoughts. Despite the best health care available, this was an illness that was never fully controlled and the emotional pain resulted in his decision to take his life."

<snip>

[SunSeeker]

102. Whatever it was, having a gun in the house made it fatal.

It blows my mind that someone with a long history of mential illness and/or severe depression, like this poor kid, had a gun in his house.

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/pastor-rick-warrens-son-matthew-commits-suicide-church-says

[Socal31]

155. Did it really have to go there?

Poor kid? He was not a 15 year old with hormones raging who thought it was the end of the world because his GF/BF or whoever broke up with him. He was obviously sick.

A belt and a chair could have accomplished the same thing. As could a bottle of bourbon and acetaminophen.

It was an adult making their own decision about how their time on this earth would end. Unfortunately people who are (not terminally) ill do not realize that there is a way out, or that life can get better. They do not realize the real victims are the family, even more so the one that finds the body.

Something tells me that by that age, suicidal ideation had been going on for quite some time. Why choose the day and method he did? Nobody knows. But can we let the body get to at least room temperature before we start politicizing the motive and method?

I could literally throw a rock onto the Saddleback property from my office parking-lot. I am not a fan of that or any church. But this is as private a matter as any other family medical issue, unless it comes out that he was pushed to do it because of institutionalized hate, or he was murdered.

[SunSeeker]

157. If we don't learn from a tragedy it compounds the tragedy.

It is not "politicizing" when someone points out the role of a gun in a tragedy. I am not speculating on his "motive." I am just pointing out a fact. The fact that Matthew Warren had been suicidal for at least a decade and yet still had a gun is a very salient fact about this particular tragedy, it being a suicide by gun.

I am a firm believer in people being able to end their life if there is no hope (terminally ill cancer patients in horrible pain, etc.), but it seems the vast majority of suicides are the tragic result of mental illness or depression. Committing suicide due to mental illness or depression is not a choice--it is the mental illness consuming you. Having a gun around makes otherwise manageable depression far more fatal. I lost a friend to a gun suicide. People should know that just having a gun in the house makes suicide over 5 times more likely.

http://theincidentaleconomist.com/wordpress/more-guns-more-suicides/

As previously noted in another DU post, at one point the Israeli Defense Forces changed policy, so that soldiers leave their guns on base rather than bringing them home with them over the weekend. After the change, suicide rates dropped by 40%, mostly attributed to a drop in gun suicides on weekends. In particular, there was no significant change in suicide rates during the week, so it's not the case that the timing of the policy coincided with some other change which made soldiers less suicidal overall. It was a clear case of means reduction.

http://gsoa.feinheit.ch/media/medialibrary/2010/12/Lubin_10.pdf

As Matthew's father put it, "after a fun evening together with Kay and me, in a momentary wave of despair at his home, he took his life." http://www.christianpost.com/news/rick-warrens-son-takes-own-life-after-lifelong-battle-with-mental-illness-93388/#KXGU22gmtypWKmUa.99 If that gun was not there, that momentary wave of despair may have passed and he'd still be alive. Other forms of suicide take much more deliberation and effort (i.e. a belt and chair contraption), allowing that wave to come and go. But guns are split-second quick, and unlike other suicide methods, extremely successful and irreversible. You can't try pumping his stomach like after a night of bourbon and pills.

[greiner3]

130. Clinical Depression;

IS a mental illness defined by the DSM (any) as;

according to the "DSM IV" (V has come out but this link came up easier)

"Major Depressive Episode

A. Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood or (2) loss of interest or pleasure.

Note: Do note include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations.

(1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.

(2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)

(3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains.

(4) insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day

(5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)

(6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day

(7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)

(8) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)

(9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide

B. The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode.

C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism).

E. The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation.

Major Depressive Disorder


Single Episode

A. Presence of a single Major Depressive Episode

B. The Major Depressive Episode is not better accounted for by Schizoaffective Disorder and is not superimposed on Schizophrenia, Schizophreniform Disorder, Delusional Disorder, or Psychotic Disorder Not Otherwise Specified.

C. There has never been a Manic Episode, a Mixed Episode, or a Hypomanic Episode. Note: This exclusion does not apply if all the manic-like, mixed-like, or hypomanic-like episodes are substance or treatment induced or are due to the direct physiological effects of a general medical condition.

Recurrent

A. Presence of two or more Major Depressive Episodes."

At my worst, I had 8 of the 9 symptoms characterizing Clinical Depression.

Recently, I have had a recurrence and am showing 7 of the symptoms.

The only one that's changed is I am not having suicidal 'ideations'.

I have also been diagnosed with 'rapid cycling';

"...Rapid cycling, according to the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, occurs when a person experiences four or more mood swings or episodes in a twelve-month period. An episode can consist of depression, mania, hypomania or even a mixed state. According to Mitzi Waltz in Bipolar Disorders, women and children are more likely to be rapid cyclers. Expert Consensus states that five to 15 percent of those with bipolar disorder fit the criteria for rapid cycling."

There are many terms not usually used by the general public and I won't post the meanings for brevity sake.

If any are curious and want to explore how the 1%er's, the mentally ill that is, check out;

http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx

FYI

[bananas]

146. Yes, so what do they mean by "mental illness resulting in deep depression"

that implies the depression was caused by another mental illness.

[Tx4obama]

19. R.I.P. n/t

[still_one]

22. Unfortunately many parents do not recognize their kids depression or problems. That is why if it is

At all possible communicating and listening is so important, but doesn't always work either

[valerief]

25. It has to be difficult being the son of HATE. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

44. Apparently it's much easier being the daughter of spite. n/t

[musical_soul]

109. I don't think Rick Warren hates people.

I don't like his politics at all, but he seems sort of gentle.

People need to remember that depression is a physical illness. If this started in childhood, it's unlikely that politics had anything to do with stuff.

[markpkessinger]

125. Yes -- he very gently encourages Uganda's "kill the gays" law n/t

[amuse bouche]

116. Absolutely

+1

[RussBLib]

26. prayer didn't help?

go figure

[nolabear]

29. Oh, how terrible. My heart goes out to that family. Poor child.

I hope they can somehow find comfort, but this is the absolute worst.

[alp227]

31. As much as I disagree with Rev. Warren's beliefs, no parent should have to bury a child. n/t

[sheshe2]

33. Matthew's pain has ended.

His families has just begun. It is something they will never forget. I know, I lost my brother to suicide.


My heart goes out to the Warren's

[SunSeeker]

149. Oh sheshe2, I am so sorry. Yes, may Matthew and your brother rest in peace.

[sheshe2]

150. Thank you SunSeeker.

My brother was a troubled soul as was Matthew.

It will be seven years ago next month. I had nightmares for the better part of a year. You don't forget. As I said their pain ends and yours starts. Breaking the news to my mom was the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life.

to you

she

[Marrah_G]

38. Perhaps his father will learn from this and become a less hate-filled human being

Poor kid

[amuse bouche]

47. As I recall

Rick Warren supported Uganda's 'Kill the Gays Bill'

No matter the reasons for his son's suicide, I can't see daddy becoming human, anytime soon

[Marrah_G]

49. yes he did

I wonder how many other kids have killed themselves due to his influence on their families?

I have sympathy for the son. I can't muster up any for the father.

[amuse bouche]

51. Me too

and I won't pretend otherwise.

[closeupready]

59. Ah yes! I wasn't going to say anything in response to this story,

since I try to follow the old axiom, 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything', but on second thought, you have put it very well.

Sad for his son, but I hate what his father did and does just as much now as ever, and I certainly don't respect him. That's that.

[BuddhaGirl]

137. I'm no fan of Rick Warren

but I can feel compassion for him as a father and fellow human being.

It's a horrible thing to lose a child

[Marrah_G]

141. I can understand that

I feel for the young man's family. I feel for the young man himself. I just can't muster up any for Rick Warren. I'm just being honest. He didn't give one thought to the young lives he was destroy by preaching his hate and influencing families to believe their children mentally ill and/or tools of the devil for being gay? How many other children's suicides did he have a hand in?

Anyway, I know, I sound cold and callous, but I'm just being honest.

I'm going to hide the threads on these now so I won't be tempted to say any more on the topic.

[mzmolly]

40. So very sad.

My condolences to the family - differences aside.

[City Lights]

42. RIP, Matthew. nt

[OmahaBlueDog]

45. My condolences to the Warren family

I can only envision a few things that would be more devastating than to lose a child to suicide.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

61. Speaking as an atheist it proves to me that money isn't everything.

[Festivito]

69. Welcome to DU. Very sad story. It's not that proof though.

The response says: "God says, no, at times."

The Bible also notes that some people can become self-deluded with the Bible. But, it also lets us know that we cannot judge who is and who is not a true believer. If he was gay, and his father knew it, his father must be doing some soul searching at this moment. But, he might be keeping himself too busy to do that.

I wish his soul well, and then that his sorrow soon becomes a strong desire to keep good memories of his son.

Hey, on a lighter note, welcome again. You'll find some like minded thinkers in the Religion and Atheists forums. They seem to hate my guts and some have me on ignore. But, I think they'll like you. For now, I wish that bit of you, that is your heart turned to soul, that is you, is well -- even if you end up hating my guts.

[DinahMoeHum]

52. I'm no fan of Rick Warren, but I feel sorry for him right now.

The situation he faces sucks big time, and there's no way around it.

As the saying goes: There but for the grace of G*d go you or I.

[iandhr]

53. The lack of compassion of some of these posts

is creeping me out.

[arcane1]

57. Particularly those who signed up just to post uncalled-for nonsense

[Niceguy1]

58. thought I was

On free republic eek

[Occulus]

62. It's what happens when the compassionless suffer a loss.

You just can't treat people the way he did and then expect carols of moral support and sympathy over something like this. That's NOT how the world works.

[iandhr]

68. So we should descend to their level?

[Occulus]

72. Sauce, for the goose.

[840high]

75. Maybe not your world -

I feel sorry for the young man and his family.

[Occulus]

76. On his son we can agree.

But I have not one jot nor scintilla of sympathy for Warren himself.

Not. One.

[BeyondGeography]

63. Using personal tragedy as a prop

Pathetic.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

65. No me. People are PISSED.

[iandhr]

73. Its too much to ask to show...

... some compassion when a young man takes his own life? He is 27 thats two years old then me.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

78. I'm sure many here feel for the son but think the dad drove him to it.

[iandhr]

80. And its wrong to make statements like that while the body is still warm.

Before any facts are known.

[JanMichael]

85. ummm yeah. no doubt

his family is reading DU as I type.

[iandhr]

86. I was talking about common decency

[JanMichael]

87. it's an anonymous internet forum

from your name, I have no idea if I am even responding to a male or female. Seriously, lay off. Who cares. I think it's sad the guy is dead, but jumping on people for writing negative comments about Rick Warren is beyond ridiculous.

[iandhr]

89. I am no fan of Rick Warren.

But people here are saying that Warren is responsible for his son's suicide with out any evidence. That I find ridiculous and cruel.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

96. Dad wrote "The Purpose Filled Life". Do you know what kind of opening that is for a tasteless joke?

[iandhr]

122. I dont care.

There is something called decent interval.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

123. Which is why I didn't do a joke.

[okasha]

70. Me too.

Vultures in a feeding frenzy aren't a pretty sight.

Edited to add: A number of people are dropping their dirty little socks on this thread. Cleanup is overdue.

[BuddhaGirl]

140. not to mention very sad :-(

eom

[Inspired]

60. My heart aches for the Warren family.

So sad.

[deutsey]

66. That's terrible

I don't agree with Warren at all theologically or politically, but there are things that transcend theology and politics.

I'm am very saddened to hear this news and send my deepest condolences to the Warren family.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

71. May he rest in peace. My condolences to the family and friends.

[PD Turk]

74. Oh no :(

Peace be with them, may the Great Spirit comfort them in this difficult time. I may vehemently disagree with Rick's world view but I'm a parent too and can't imagine losing my child. The disagreements can wait for another day, for now they have to bury their child. Great Spirit bless and keep them while they go about that difficult task.

[hrmjustin]

79. May he rest in peace and rise in glory.

I so sorry for his family.

[Divine Discontent]

90. +1. tragic.

[Ilsa]

82. I feel sad for everyone who knew the poor soul.

I hope his father's heart changes instead of calling for death for people who are different. Feeling pain of loss like this might change his mind about wishing it upon others.

[struggle4progress]

84. ouch

[gauguin57]

91. I'll pray for the Warrens.

I won't agree with the Warrens on most things ... but parents who have been touched by suicide need our prayers (if you believe in prayer), regardless of their politics.

A member of my extended family committed suicide after a bout with depression, and it was just absolutely devastating. The effects on the family last for years.

Depression is an illness like any other illness, and it can cause death like so many other illnesses.

[Pab Sungenis]

93. See? It's a lot more than

"just one prayer."

I hope his soul is at peace and his father is in eternal torment.

[sdfernando]

99. man that is cold

He lost his son, isn't that enough? Eternal torment, really???

Maybe this tragedy will enlighten him...ever thought of that?

You would sentence this man to eternal damnation with no hope of reprieve?

Tell me you don't really mean that.

[Pab Sungenis]

100. It's what he wishes for me

and the attitude that drove his son to take his life. It's no less than he deserves.

[hrmjustin]

151. Do we know why he killed himself yet?

[Indykatie]

94. Warren's Comments Strike Me as Odd

So sorry to hear about this young man's death. For some reason I found his father's comment about "another failed approach" odd for some reason. In the back of my mind I could not help wondering whether this poor child was gay and struggling because his family saw this as a condition to be cured. Depression is usually treated with either psychotherapy or drugs and his comment seems to reference something else to me. The child was 17 at the time according to Warren's comments.

"I'll never forget how, many years ago, after another approach had failed to give relief, Matthew said, 'Dad, I know I'm going to heaven. Why can't I just die and end this pain?' but he kept going for another decade."

[SunSeeker]

103. Even more odd, Warren called the suicide a "decision." No one decides to be mentally ill.

It is the depression that made him blow his brains out, that and our gun culture that lets folks with a 10-year history of mental illness and depression have a gun.

[MarcoS]

121. Just as no one decides to be gay or straight

Ask Rick Warren if he agrees with that.

[Eleanors38]

127. Should anyone who is mentally ill have rights curtailed...

by government? Don't the mentally ill have the right of due pricess? Maybe it was the Constitution which let him have a gun.

For some, gun politics seem to be the end-all for explaining anything; like corn sweetener it creeps into everything.

[SunSeeker]

148. Mentally ill people don't have a right to a gun.

Ask your buddy Scalia. The fact that you are to the right of Scalia says a lot about you. And yes, some people can only talk about guns. I have never seen you post about anything else.

That's all this thread needed: a gungeoneer hijacking it.

[Eleanors38]

158. Ah, yes, more insults & attacks. Typical.

I pose the question to you, even as you seem to have answered it: Do the mentally ill have due process rights?

BTW, my response came about from someone who posted about guns.

Anytime you want to show your... left/right credentials, I'm listening. But I think I've got you beat.

[SunSeeker]

159. Of course the mentally ill have due process rights.

And if this man was not mentally ill, he would have a right to a gun under current Supreme Court law. This is not a situation where anyone, including this man, was disputing that he was mentally ill. That would be a different discussion. It is pathetic that you look at this as a game, wanting to "beat" me with silly trick questions. It is unfortunate you have no other hobbies.

[HangOnKids]

163. The silly trick questions and the OUTRAGE are tells

Bad poker players. They just do not realize this.

[SunSeeker]

165. LOL.

Yes. Thanks, HangOnKids.

[Eleanors38]

168. Trick question? If he was prevented from having a gun...

by law, then that will come out. There are millions of people who are mentally ill who drive, operate machinery and own guns. Until due process prevents them. The deceased was an adult, and only the law can restrict. That is not pathetic, and it is not "to the political right" of anyone, so keep the insults to yourself.

[SunSeeker]

170. Arguing that mentally ill people should have guns is not in the mainstream.

And being pro-gun is not a progressive position. And hijacking a thread about a gun suicide to defend gun ownership by the mentally ill is beyond the pale.

[Eleanors38]

190. Sounds like poutrage; it would be more convincing if...

you didn't sound so routine & bored.

[SunSeeker]

192. No, I'm just stating the facts. nt

[Eleanors38]

194. And I see none coming from you. nt

[HangOnKids]

161. Complaining about attacks and insults with....

Attacks and insults. Typical.

[Eleanors38]

169. No attacks & insults issued by me. Re-check your cards.

[SunSeeker]

171. Implying I do not think the mentally ill have any rights is an insult.

You probably think your farts don't stink either.

[Eleanors38]

188. I asked a reasonable question based on your remarks

Don't get so huffy & insulting.

[SunSeeker]

191. It was not reasonable to accuse me of believing the mentally ill have no rights.

And it is not reasonable to argue that the mentally ill should be armed.

[Eleanors38]

195. Again, distortions:

I asked you a question, you accuse me.

On another note, who is arguing the mentally ill (or anyone else, for that matter) "should be armed?"

[SunSeeker]

197. You.

You speak approvingly of "millions" of "mentally ill" people owning guns. See your post #168. If you didn't believe the mentally ill should own guns, then you wouldn't have hijacked this thread to attack me for my rather obvious observation about how inappropriate it was for this mentally ill person to have had a gun.

As I said further up the thread, nobody, not even Matthew Warren, disputed he was mentally ill, and seriously suicidal. In the words of his own father, Mathew had been mentally ill his whole life. This is not a situation involving some kind of attempted infringement on his due process rights, such as having him declared mentally ill over his or his family's objection.

If you agree with me that mentally ill people should not have guns, wonderful.

[Eleanors38]

198. You #102. You #157. You brought it up...

I think you wanted a my- way-or-highway narrative. I challenged you & you went ballistic with your "hijacking" accusation, which led to your gross distortions about guns & the mentally ill. Nothing I said in the post I made speaks approvingly of Anyone -- mentally challenged or otherwise -- owning guns. Quote it back for me, or withdraw your attack.

Incidentally, you seem to acknowledge the truth of the matter in the last line in your latest post.

[SunSeeker]

199. YOU attacked ME for saying our gun culture lets mentally ill folks have a gun.

My posts #102 and #157 were to ANOTHER poster, not you; you were not even involved in that subthread. You did not make any comments to posts 102 nor 157.

Post #102 was directed at someone wondering what sort of mental illness Matthew Warren had. All I said was: "Whatever it was, having a gun in the house made it fatal. It blows my mind that someone with a long history of mental illness and/or severe depression, like this poor kid, had a gun in his house. http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/pastor-rick-warrens-son-matthew-commits-suicide-church-says "

You jumped into this thread at my post #103, which was responding to someone who had noted that Rick Warren's comments about his son's death sounded odd. All I said to that person, who I agreed with, was: "Even more odd, Warren called the suicide a 'decision.' No one decides to be mentally ill. It is the depression that made him blow his brains out, that and our gun culture that lets folks with a 10-year history of mental illness and depression have a gun."

That's when you jumped in to attack me. I had apparently set off the gungeoneer radar by mentioning guns. Your first post, #127, to me was: "Should anyone who is mentally ill have rights curtailed...by government? Don't the mentally ill have the right of due process? Maybe it was the Constitution which let him have a gun. For some, gun politics seem to be the end-all for explaining anything; like corn sweetener it creeps into everything."

These sarcastic rhetorical questions state that you believe the mentally ill should not have "rights curtailed by government" and that "the Constitution" "let him have a gun." In other words, that the mentally ill have a Constitutional right to a gun. And of course, you had to end it with a personal attack, accusing me of playing "gun politics" and that it is my "end-all."

To which I responded (post #148): "Mentally ill people don't have a right to a gun. Ask your buddy Scalia. The fact that you are to the right of Scalia says a lot about you. And yes, some people can only talk about guns. I have never seen you post about anything else. That's all this thread needed: a gungeoneer hijacking it."

To which you responded (post #158): "Ah, yes, more insults & attacks. Typical. I pose the question to you, even as you seem to have answered it: Do the mentally ill have due process rights? BTW, my response came about from someone who posted about guns. Anytime you want to show your... left/right credentials, I'm listening. But I think I've got you beat.

Here, you are implying that the mentally ill have process rights to guns, albeit with a silly question and game-playing. Demonstrating that you were attacking me personally, you gleefully note "I think I've got you beat."

To which I responded (post #158): "Of course the mentally ill have due process rights. And if this man was not mentally ill, he would have a right to a gun under current Supreme Court law. This is not a situation where anyone, including this man, was disputing that he was mentally ill. That would be a different discussion. It is pathetic that you look at this as a game, wanting to "beat" me with silly trick questions. It is unfortunate you have no other hobbies."

To which you responded (post #168): "Trick question? If he was prevented from having a gun...by law, then that will come out. There are millions of people who are mentally ill who drive, operate machinery and own guns. Until due process prevents them. The deceased was an adult, and only the law can restrict. That is not pathetic, and it is not "to the political right" of anyone, so keep the insults to yourself."

You did not suggest it was a bad idea that "millions of people who are mentally ill" "own guns." You stated it in the context that it was their right, "until due process prevents them." My original point was that mentally ill people should not have guns in the first place; applying "due process" after a mentally person gets a gun to take away the gun of that mentally ill person may be too late.

I responded via post 170, stating: "Arguing that mentally ill people should have guns is not in the mainstream. And being pro-gun is not a progressive position. And hijacking a thread about a gun suicide to defend gun ownership by the mentally ill is beyond the pale.

You responded (post 190) with more insults, calling my statement "poutrage." And of course, you could not let it go, continuing with the back and forth, apparently realizing that what you said sounds crazy and attempting to backtrack. However, I have yet to see you clearly state that the mentally ill do not have a right to guns. I am not holding my breath.

[Eleanors38]

200. Well, at least you admit bring up the subject before I did. There is little credibility left...

in the rest of your post. You have an active imagination if you think that a clear question as an attack; you have a low threshold for defining "trickery."

You:
"However, I have yet to see you clearly state that the mentally ill do not have a right to guns. I am not holding my breath."

No need to gas-huff yourself: The mentally ill DO IN FACT have a right (whether you or I like it or not) to own guns as long as they have not been ADJUDICATED (5th Amendment) mentally ill. Is that clear and fast enough for you?

And once again -- you quoted yourself and mis-represented me -- by saying I was "arguing that mentallly ill people should have guns..."

You:
"My original point was that mentally ill people should not have guns in the first place; applying "due process" after a mentally person gets a gun to take away the gun of that mentally ill person may be too late."

No one is arguing that a mentally-ill person should have a gun IF they have been first adjudicated mentally incompetent. Unless you have something else in mind before "...applying 'due process' after a mentally person gets a gun to take away the gun..." What you are saying doesn't square: Due process can and should be used to prevent mental incompetents from obtaining arms. Are you suggesting something different?

Now, I ask you: Do you think the mentally ill have a right to own guns if they have not been ADJUDICATED mentally incompetent?
Of course that requires more "back and forth."

[SunSeeker]

201. Wow. Just wow. You're so far out there.

Apparently, just bringing up the fact that our gun culture allows mentally ill folks to have a gun allows you to attack me. That'll teach anyone to dare state the obvious!

I think if a doctor/psychologist thinks a person is a danger to himself and others, and time is of the essence, there should be a way to alert a background check system to prevent that person from purchasing a gun. That would have prevented Aurora, for one. Of course, that patient should be able to challenge that, just like you can challenge being put on the no-fly list.

But this post was not about that. You are changing the subject. That is what's called hijacking a thread. It must be lonely down in the gungeon. Find someone else to talk to--not me. Your posts are offensive and uninformative. You've wasted enough of my time in this thread.

[Eleanors38]

202. You can't take a challenge well, and think it is an attack.

Incidentally, I don't buy your method of b.g. checks as due process. And that includes the no-fly stuff. Transportation is not necessarily a right, but the laws governing such must reflect equal protection, yet another consideration in the potential denial of both rights and privileges. Any such "doctor/psychologist" pronouncement would not be tolerated with other rights; it's like prior-censorship, and wouldn't be tolerated if applied to the rest of the B.O.R.

[HangOnKids]

173. Not likely Steve

Your bluff is way too cheap.

[Eleanors38]

189. Got nothin' to show? nt

[BainsBane]

172. No one decides to be mentally ill

but they do decide to commit suicide. That decision is borne of the pain of illness, illogical, but still a decision.

[SunSeeker]

177. Suicide is the mental illness consuming you.

Matthew Warren's mental illness drove him to kill himself, not some reasoned decision. Saying he "decided" to kill himself suggests it was a voluntary reasoned choice, as we understand a decision to be. IMO calling it a decision shifts the responsibility for the suicide onto the mentally ill person, which I think is cruel.

[BainsBane]

182. choices need not be reasoned

but even in illness, we make choices, though those choices come from pain and despair.
I think what often drives a person to want to kill himself is a desire to be free from pain more than anything else.

[SunSeeker]

185. I get what you're saying.

And I'm just saying we should avoid words that make it sound like we're blaming the victim.

[BainsBane]

186. I agree with that

and I appreciate your concern about the mentally ill. I just wouldn't want people to feel that they don't have a choice. Even at our sickest, we always have a choice, even though we may not see it at the time.

[sdfernando]

97. I think the most tragic thing in life is to lose one of your children

And I say that as someone who has no, nor never will have children.

I cannot imagine the heartbreak the Warren family is going through right now. I hope that with time the good memories of their son will carry them through and that no one in that family falls into despair. I am not a religious person but I do hope that every one of the Warren family finds comfort in their beliefs whatever they may be.

Matthew Warren: It is my sincere hope that wherever you are now, you are at peace.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

98. "I could not help wondering whether this poor child was gay"

That was my first thought.

Maybe dad will see the light, but I doubt it. There's too much money coming in by being anti-gay.

[yellowcanine]

160. I don't see the usefulness of such speculation.

There are many reasons for suicide and frankly it is offensive to be speculating this way. The reason the family gave was depression. That is all anyone needs to know.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

164. I disagree...

If the father was like the mom from Carrie.

[yellowcanine]

175. If you precede any reason with "IF" just about anything can be justified.

Speculation of this type is basically gossip.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

180. And we all know the internet is no place for that sort of thing.

[yellowcanine]

181. No more justified on the internet than anywhere else.

And just as corrosive, actually more so, because a wider distribution is almost guaranteed.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

183. And consider the audience...

[DeSwiss]

101. RIP

No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

John Donne, 1624

[senseandsensibility]

120. Very apt quotation.

It's one of my favorites and a good reminder at times like this that we are all in this together.

[DeSwiss]

124. Yes, it is a good reminder because.....

[Hulk]

104. "heaven was waiting"....how absurd.

Is that supposed to be helpful to someone conemplating suicide? honestly, I have really mixed feelings about this story. Of course I feel bad for anyone and their family that resorts to taking their own life as a way out. Then again, pump me full of so much bull shit that I fervently believe their is peace and comfort on the other side, I might just be more tempted to bail out.

I had zero respect for this religious hypocrite. I feel bad for him and his family; but more sad for his son who had enough emotional depression to deal with without his crazy-ass old man stuffing his head full of "jesus is waiting" crap to find his "peace". Tragic, just tragic.

[Beacool]

105. I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm no Warren fan, but I wouldn't wish the death of a son on anyone. My condolences to the family. Depression is a terrible thing.

May he rest in peace.

[musical_soul]

106. It's so sad.

I can't think of a worse way to go than through your own hand. I hope Rick isn't the type to believe that suicides go to Hell. That would be even more devastating. I'll keep their family in my prayers.

[MarcoS]

107. Details

Anyone know if Matthew Warren had ever been married? Was he gay?

Easily the most frightening thing about this story is how discussion regarding this question, as well the fact that his dad was one of the initial backers of Uganda's law to execute all gay people in their country, his support of so-called "reparative therapy" legalized genocide centers, etc has been surgically removed from mainstream sites. Utterly frightening. He's allowed to commit mass murder against gay people but we're not allowed to ask if his son was gay.

[musical_soul]

111. Rick didn't support the Ugandan bill.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/10/rick-warren-publicly-cond_n_387512.html

[MarcoS]

112. Did you miss the last part of that article?

Rick Warren publicly condemned Uganda's law because and only because of public outrage at not only his support of it, but initial funding as well. Privately he's never wavered from his "traditional" OT position that gay people are to be put to death.

[musical_soul]

113. Which part of the article did he say that?

I saw where it says he was close to one of the pastors pushing for the bill and that he is influential among the elite. Neither one of those means he supported the bill. I think we all have an extremist friend or two and being influential doesn't mean you always get your way.

He said in the video that the law was wrong because it's harsh against homosexuals, would put pastors in a position of having to report homosexuals, might discourage homosexuals from seeking medical assistance in fear of being reported, and because the church is not supposed to be about condemnation.

[MarcoS]

114. No offense but

clearly you've unfamiliar with the Ugandan story. Follow the links in the referenced article. Warren and his Ugandan Taliban-wannabe counterpart foisted this law on their country nearly single-handedly.

[musical_soul]

115. Looking at the links around the article....

and haven't found it. Which specific link says that Rick Warren supported the Ugandan bill?

[MarcoS]

118. Can we get answers to my questions

Follow these references from the article and my previous post:

http://americablog.com/2009/11/rick-warren-refuses-to-condemn-proposed-ugandan-law-executing-gay-people.html

But I'd like to get back to my initial questions if possible. Does anyone know if Matthew was ever married, and if he was gay?

[MADem]

126. He wiffle-waffled when asked on MTP, but later condemned the bill.

See here--all is revealed:

http://www.towleroad.com/2009/12/video-pastor-rick-warren-condemns-uganda-antihomosexuality-bill.html

[Marrah_G]

132. His actions and words advanced the thinking that brought about these bills

When it became public here in America that his friends and colleagues were putting forth these bills he covered his ass by saying that killing them was to "harsh".

He has caused alot of damage, here and abroad and for anyone to pretend otherwise is frankly just disingenuous.

[MarcoS]

133. Disingenuity

Again we simply need to ask Rick Warren if he believes or disbelieves the Old Testament edict regarding people who engage in physical expression of self-love, oops I mean "homosexuality". It's a direct question that requires a direct answer, but from what I've read he gives very different answers depending on his audience.

[oldandhappy]

108. I am sorry for the family

[Douglas Carpenter]

110. I wish them peace

[DesertRat]

119. Oh, that's horrible

I have a 27 yr. old son myself and can't imagine what they're going through.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

128. This is deeply, deeply tragic

Whatever one thinks of the father's politics/religious views, I grieve for him and his family on a deeply personal level and I cannot even begin to imagine the depths of grief, pain and despair among the family that follows a tragic event like this

Something like this will likely leave a lifelong legacy for those whom he has left behind and things will never be the same again.

I deeply grieve for the loss of an innocent soul who was obviously suffering deeply. I wish that no human soul ever had to experience that kind of pain and suffering but so many do. I pray that he is at peace now

But my deepest, sincerest and most heartfelt thoughts, prayers, condolences and sympathies are reserved for those he left behind. I wish no-one ever had to go through this

[Jennicut]

129. Depression is very misunderstood, judging by comments here. I have suffered from it for years.

I am sure having a parents that can be difficult or not as understanding can make it worse but it is largely an internal process, at least for me. Sometimes I just feel depressed for no good reason. It's not something that can be totally controlled by outside factors. Stress can make it worse but sometimes in the most stressful moments of my life I am not depressed. I am married and have two beautiful little girls and wonderful, supportive parents. But the depression still happens. I have been on many different meds, been to different therapists. I have a much better handle on it now. But some people never really do. My own cousin was depressed and committed suicide last summer at 24. He shot himself too. Depression kills, depression sucks. Mental illness is a horrible thing to go through. I don't like Rick Warren but I understand the pain his son was in all too well.

[Patiod]

131. "You can't know what is in another person's heart"

One of my sorority sisters had what people used to call a nervous breakdown, but she was clearly struggling with depression as one component (anxiety being the other). When the pain got to be too much, she killed herself.

It wasn't her parents' beliefs or politics, it was her own pain.

At the funeral, the rabbi told the congregation, and particularly her parents, "You can never know what is in another person's heart. Only God knows that, and we're not God."

She got along great with her parents, who had gotten her help and counseling, and supported her decisions, whether it was to go back to school or take a semester off. But no one knew how to get her back from the dark and scary place she was in.

Condolences to the Warren family and all their son's friends.

[Sunlei]

134. very sad. RIP.

The side effects of all these daily drugs maked me scared for humanity. The drug corporations fought like hell to not have the side effects listed at all. The side effect "thoughts of suicide', is it just me? why would any Doctor risk those side effects on their patient.

[Exultant Democracy]

136. My sister drank the Rick Warren koolaid a few years ago, and her poor son is clearly gay

I've watched him become angrier and angrier over the years as the church has told him how evil and tainted he is. My greatest fear is that he is going to lash out and harm himself or someone else because of what their sick religion is doing to him.

[SunSeeker]

139. Wow. I hope he knows he has your support, if not his mother's.

He is lucky to have you. Some kids have nobody.

[Crabby Appleton]

142. Rest In Peace Matthew. My condolences to his family and friends.

[Sivafae]

144. I'm quoting Olivia Pope on this one.

"Why am I helping him? Because even the devil loves his children."

My heart aches for the man who took his life. When you struggle that long with mental illness, it takes its toll. For whatever speculated reason this man struggled, the truth is that his mental illness is the winner in this.

This is a private matter, and what has been told us, the public, doesn't need to be truth.

[MarcoS]

166. Pardon but

that's one of the most outrageous claims I've ever heard.

Would you like to guess how many millions of gay people have been shamed into self-loathing, depression and suicide over the last 3000 years?

Just so we're clear, Rick Warren is allowed to support legalized genocide against gay people (via his support of "reparative therapy centers", etc), but nobody is allowed to ask if, just maybe, the only "life-long mental illness" his son had was possibly being gay. The cowardice and disingenuity literally make me wanna puke.

[PolitFreak]

145. Nobody's immune from mental illness

Nobody!

[yurbud]

147. I feel for this guy and his family, regardless of his politics

[kestrel91316]

152. I have one question, not just for Pastor Warren, but for all

biblical literalists who say that this life is only transient and a test by Gawd to see if we are worthy, that earth is really a horrible demon-infested place, and that going to heaven to be with Jesus is a glorious thing to celebrate:

Why are you mourning this young man, or any dead person for that matter???? He has gone to glory and left this fake existence.

I guess this is where their hypocrisy and utter lack of belief in what they themselves preach become apparent.

Very sad about the young man's suicide, at any rate.

[Union Scribe]

154. You really can't see how

people can believe in a loved one going to heaven AND still miss them deeply?

What a fucked up thing to use this as an opportunity to slam religious people.

[kestrel91316]

156. I am slamming people who say one thing and expect others to

do it, yet don't themselves do it.

[yellowcanine]

162. It is wrong to use the death of a family member as an occasion to slam anyone.

For whatever reason. Sorry that is just wrong.

[MarcoS]

167. It's not half as wrong

as sweeping gay people under the rug and lavishing sympathy on the one holding the broom.

[yellowcanine]

176. "Not half as wrong" is still wrong.

And having compassion for someone and disapproval of that person's actions are not mutually exclusive.

[MarcoS]

178. Just so we're clear

It's ok for Rick Warren to commit legalized genocide against the gay community (via "reparative therapy centers etc), but not ok to ask if his son, who suffered from depression ("from birth" yet, somehow) to the point of suicide, was gay.

[yellowcanine]

179. About as clear an example of a "false choice" as I have ever heard.

What is clear is that you don't do logic well.

[NutmegYankee]

174. Grief is a normal Human emotion.

You can't logic it away. And even if they believe their departed loved one is going to a wonderful place, they will still miss the company of that person for the rest of their lives.

[tavalon]

153. I'm so sorry this happened to this family or any family

May he get the peace he couldn't find here.

[slackmaster]

184. Depression is a horrible illness that kills many people

RIP Matthew Warren.

[Jamastiene]

187. I feel for what the son might have gone through.

May he rest in peace. Suicide is a horrendous thing to go through for that person and the people who loved them.

As for Rick Warren, I will say...nothing at all...even though I am sure with all his other hate-filled preaching, he probably believes suicidal people go to Hell too. He probably has no problem with that thought either, even in his own son's case. I mean, this is a guy who supported a law that would kill gay people for simply being gay. What kind of hate does someone have in their heart to support that sort of thing? His own ideology will keep him through this.

So, to be polite, to a degree, I will say nothing at all regarding Rick Warren other than acknowledge that this gay person has received his hateful message and rejects it outright.

[hughee99]

193. Will the Westboro Baptist Church be at the funeral to protest? n/t