Christianity As State Religion Supported By One-Third Of Americans, Poll Finds

[PolitFreak]

Source: The Huffington Post

Posted: 04/06/2013 9:19 am EDT | Updated: 04/06/2013 9:31 am EDT

Although the North Carolina House of Representatives killed a bill Thursday that would have paved the way for establishing an official state religion, a new national HuffPost/YouGov poll finds widespread support for doing so.

The new survey finds that 34 percent of adults would favor establishing Christianity as the official state religion in their own state, while 47 percent would oppose doing so. Thirty-two percent said that they would favor a constitutional amendment making Christianity the official religion of the United States, with 52 percent saying they were opposed.

Although a large percentage of Americans said they would favor establishing a state religion, only 11 percent said they thought the U.S. Constitution allowed states to do so. Fifty-eight percent said they didn't think it was constitutional, and 31 percent said they were not sure.

The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the First Amendment, which (among other things) prohibits the government from establishing an official religion, also applies to the states.

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/06/christianity-state-religion_n_3022255.html

---

This makes me and

[rocktivity]

1. Then one third of Americans are trying to overthrow the government.

Maybe we really do need assault weapons.


rocktivity

[Joey Liberal]

2. One third of Americans are total morons.

Nuff said.

[RKP5637]

4. I'll go for 1/3, but really I think about

1/2 of "Americans are total morons."

[mountain grammy]

20. Well, 47% of voters picked Rmoney and 46% Palen.

That's enough to terrify me.

[MoonchildCA]

61. Actually, less than 60% of registered voters...

... voted in those elections, which makes the total less than 30%.
Of course, that means the other 40% either don't pay attention or don't care, which is equally frightening.

[csziggy]

91. And only 68% of voting age Americans are registered

So that makes the total percentage of morons who voted for Rmoney or Palin an even lower percentage of the American population.

American Voter Registration Rates Are Unusually Low: Approximately 68 percent of voting age Americans are registered to vote. That compares to 100 percent of Argentinians, 97 percent of Brits, 93 percent of Canadians and 77 percent of South Africans. As the Brennan Center explains, America does a poor job of registering voters because we place the burden of registering largely at the feet of the voters themselves, while most of our peer nations actively encourage voter registration.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/09/25/907751/five-facts-about-voting-in-america-for-national-voter-registration-day/

The White House puts the number of Americans 19 and over who voted in 2008 at 57%:

Even though voting rights have expanded substantially over the years, many people do not execute their right to vote. Beginning in the 1960s the percentage of people voting began to decrease. The 2000 election attracted the most voters in years—over 50 percent of those eighteen and older. The voting rate increased to over 55 percent in the 2004 election, with much of the increase attributed to younger Americans. An additional five million voters cast their votes in the 2008 election, which raised the voting rate to nearly 57 percent. This increase was due to votes from Hispanic, African-American, and Asian voters.
http://www.ourwhitehouse.org/whogetsvote.html

[LibDemAlways]

41. You have way more faith in Americans than I do. I'd put the total

moron population at around 80%.

[FreeBC]

18. It's always the same third

They should have asked them other questions. The same third probably believes Bush was a good president and that Obama is a communist born in Kenya.

[Rozlee]

40. They're the same third that Lincoln fucked us up by not allowing to secede.

No grumbles from the Southern peanut gallery. I'm from the South myself and if all my relatives didn't live down here, I'd be in friggin' Vermont.

[SkyDaddy7]

55. I feel the same way!!!

I was born, raised & lived in the South my entire life except for my time in the military & I would head out West if I had not promised my wife we would remain in Georgia to be close to her relatives.

The South is a disgustingly undereducated, blinded by Christian mythology & racist & bigoted to the core!! I hate it here & I live about 35 minutes South of Atlanta!

Just yesterday I think was a another story about a segregated prom! It saddens me to no end to think how many of the minority kids in Georgia who are not allowed to attend their prom because they are not the right color! DISGUSTING!!

I know there are many who live in the South & do everything they can to try & play down the fact most in the South are hard core bigoted racist Christians who have not changed much since the Civil War. Folks down here would cheer a return to slavery regardless of what many Southern apologist would try & have you believe!

[The Wizard]

58. slave state mentality (NT)

[cordelia]

74. Horse shit.

[Trajan]

79. LOL ....

Same personalities saying the same things ....

You are a defender of 'The South' .... Well .... What exactly is 'The South' anyways ?

It is apparently a place that is both hated and loved .... despised and admired ....

It is a land ... A group of people .... A history .... A tradition ....

There is much to DISLIKE about 'The South' ... Ask just about anybody, and they will tell you ...

There is AT LEAST SOMETHING to LIKE about 'The South' ... Ask just about anybody, and they will tell you ...

The things that we DISLIKE; The government ... The extreme right wing christian ideology which drives many of the state level policies .... ALL are worthy of disregard by level headed persons on both sides of that grand boundary ...

Yet; when someone criticizes 'The South' .... You take it very personally .... Why ?

Why is is you get so bent out of shape about criticism of 'The South' ? ....

This is a classic verbal dispute ..... There is more to 'The South' than wonderful Liberals like you .... There is a history of centuries to cannot be ignored .... There is the immediacy of current policies, forged in the halls of government by righteous Southern Baptists and foisted onto the entire population .... There is a strong strain of hatred of ethnic groups that are not Caucasian ...

ALL of those things are worthy of our criticism, yet you scream out in metaphysical agony whenever someone has the 'gumption' to say an unkind word about 'The South' .... But the truth, Cordelia, is that NONE of that criticism says 'I hate Cordelia' .. none of it ...

Are you conflating this fair criticism with personal attacks against Southern Liberals ? ..... When someone says "The South is an awful place to live", do you consider that a personal affront ? .... YOU need to understand something - There are many reasons why 'The South' should be criticized, and most have to do with it's cultural history ......

But NO criticism of 'The South' is directed to 'Cordelia' .... or to any of the fine Liberals who live there still ....

The "Horse Shit" reply you offered was offered to a bona fide Southerner, who had the unmitigated gaul to criticize their own ancentral home, and you obviously took offense ....

So NOBODY can criticize 'The South' ... Ever ?

I haven't forgotten our last go round on this issue, and this seems to pop up on a regular basis around DU .... We need to separate what it is we are talking about ..... Criticism of 'The South' is NOT the same as saying "I hate Cordelia" .... You have to understand that ....

[SkyDaddy7]

141. YES...

There is also lots of horse shit in the South...But my guess is there is more chicken shit in the South than horse shit.

[cordelia]

75. Bull shit.

[Phillip McCleod]

116. What a cogent argument.

Beware of proving your opponents' point.

[FreeBC]

100. I'm not from the south...I disagree

Yeah, obviously the red states have a higher percentage of conservative jerks, but in the end it's just a slightly higher percentage. There are plenty of red staters in New York and California too.

I often feel the urge to blame all our problems on the south too, but it's really just not fair to do that. And it's not fair to look at the blue states as progressive havens when, once again, it's just a slight shift in the percentages. There are plenty of conservative jerks in the blue states too.

[City Lights]

25. Yup. nt

[RKP5637]

3. Yep, US = Religious Freedom. Well, that is, my way only, not your way. How backward. Another

reason why I have nothing to do with religion. Many whine about religious freedom, then, they want to limit religious freedom if it doesn't match their delusional choice.

[byeya]

11. I agree with you; I have nothing to do with religion. Religions want you to bow to their imaginary

friend while they dump on those who have a different imaginary friend(IF) or (gasp!) no IF at all.

[u4ic]

46. I am both a Unitarian Universalist and a Pagan

Neither has any impetus to convert you - in fact, you'll find the majority of UU's are agnostic or athiest. There are even Pagans who are athiest. Both of my religions (yes, they can co-exist) have social justice and environmental issues at the top of their agenda. Both ask you to think for yourself.

There are also many liberal denominations of Christianity that aren't evangelical, and would be horrified that a state (or in my case, provincial) religion be instituted.

Please do not broad brush ALL religions.

[defacto7]

62. You may want to read this....

Can I be an Atheist and a Unitarian

[1ProudAtheist]

80. Just Because One Chooses Not To Give Money And Blind Obedience

To a snake-oil selling gawwd-pimp, does not make one less of a person than one who chooses to do so, it actually makes that person more of a person. Living your life just to please others by putting on fancy clothes, goofy hats, reading fairy tales, and holding hands while singing songs, a couple of times a week, while completely ignoring the "strict codes of life" 98% of the time, actually, makes you a gigantic hypocrite.

Let me simplify this for any of you who may be confused............

There are 2 simple rules that will forever set you free and make you eternally happy:

Rule #1-You do not need religion.

Rule #2-Religion needs you.

Now, you do the simple math and the answer to eternal bliss will be yours.

[defacto7]

87. Hey... I agree!

I'm an atheist myself. I was commenting to this reply about being Unitarian and an atheist. The link is one to a well known atheist blog that tells about a former head of the Unitarian Universalist Church who wrote a book that is considered a UU standard which basically pisses on atheists.

[u4ic]

145. I read it. Did you?

One guy had an issue with one minister's book - which he didn't even directly quote from. From the email the minister wrote back, he pointed out some instances where suppression of religion led to violence as well; he also had issues with reactionaries - controlling is controlling, whether you're on the right or the left of the spectrum.

There is no pope here. You'll even find some differences between ministers, as the basis
is the 7 principles: http://www.uua.org/beliefs/principles/

By the way, your subject also wrote, verbatim: "I was and am glad to be a Unitarian Universalist".

But I guess it's just too easy to google "athiem, Unitarian" to and get this, without even understanding what UU is all about. There are ministers who believe in a god (and not necessarily a Xtian one either - it could just mean higher power, collective consciousness, etc), some don't. Same with the congregations. Some congregations do not want that word to be uttered in their buildings, others freely use it. Sometimes there's a mixture. Within the UUA and the CUC there is CUUPS (covenant of UU Pagans), Buddhist and Christian groups, Interweave (GLBTQ) and plenty more I don't even know about. There are a even few Xtian congregations in the US.

I have two close friends who are both retired UU ministers and are both athiests. Many in the congregation I attend are athiest, about as many are agnostic. The purpose is community/social, education and working as a group towards specific goals (ie environmental/social justice issues).

Unitarian Universalism is diverse.

[defacto7]

147. You seem to take a position to the extreme.

I thought you should read it. No more. I did not comment, did I?

I have been a part of that blog for almost 2 years so I am well acquainted with the blogger who is considered one of the best writers and advocates of atheism on the net. I know what it was about and your knee jerk reaction is solely your own. I'm sorry if you feel defensive.

If I belonged to any group I would want to know all there is to know about it. I also know a bit about UU and the diversity it has. That is no reason to dismiss the reality that there has been a strong movement to disassociate with atheists, part of which was documented and proposed by one of it's chief executives who, for the better in my estimation, is no longer at the helm though his book is still promoted by the UU as representative of it's position and purpose. If you wish to defend UU, I would think that reasonable and would not argue such, but I would consider defending it from threats emanating within it and not pretend it doesn't exist because you don't like how it sounds.

It's all information. If you are not into that, then I'll let it alone.

[u4ic]

148. Extreme? Ooookay.

Last edited Fri Apr 19, 2013, 01:46 AM - Edit history (1)

Trying to educate someone makes one an extremist? I've heard that from the right before, but never from the left. Not that everyone on here is a progressive...

I see you've taken a page from the Republican handbook. Attack and project your own foibles onto someone else.

I told a few of my UU friends the other day, all of whom were athiests. "Well", one piped up, "thank him for telling us that. I had no idea that for the past 17 years of being an athiest UU, that I wasn't welcome!"

It's quite obvious that you don't understand what Unitarian Universalism is about. If you choose not to educate yourself, or understand - on any issue - that's your problem. It doesn't make any difference to me - whatever works for you or other people works for them. Whatever doesn't, doesn't. People can think for themselves (or not) and decide their own path.

[Archae]

5. This is mostly thanks to the right-wing infotainment industry.

Faux, Rush, WND, etc.

Sure they want Christianity to be the official religion.
But only THEIR version, conservative protestants.
Maybe conservative Catholics.

[Andy823]

43. I agree

There are many groups that claim to be christians, but it's their version that they think is the ONLY true christian religion. If states were to go to a state religion, pick christian as their choice, how long would it be before they narrow it down to on specific group that will be "the" religion, and then how long would it be before the problems start with the "others" that were left out?

Many religions say they are christians, and claim they are the ONLY way to salvation, all other religions are false. They feel only "their" beliefs are from the bible, and only they can save you when the end comes. Trying to get these groups to agree on things is impossible. How long would it be before one group dominated in the state political arena, and how long would it take for those politicians to start pushing their religious beliefs on the entire state?

This idea of a state religions is not a good plan as far as I am concerned.

[struggle4progress]

6. "Thirty-six percent of Americans think aliens have visited Earth"

Most Americans Believe Government Keeps UFO Secrets, Survey Finds
Survey for National Geographic finds extraterrestrial visits not that crazy an idea to most Americans
By Seth Cline
June 28, 2012

[rrneck]

12. I understand your point but

to be fair, there is no constitutional amendment declaring the non existence of imprisoned aliens in Area 51.

[struggle4progress]

29. I'm more concerned by what folk do than by what they say they think, and silly knee-jerk reactions

to polls concern me much less than organized activity

[rrneck]

35. What they think determines what they do.

It's one thing to believe in a fiction, which not only is perfectly healthy and beneficial to the believer, and another to believe in a fiction that contravenes certain obvious realities.

To me, belief in UFO's actually indicates a very positive impulse: The need to believe that there are others who we would like to know and understand. Belief in the establishment of a state religion flies in the face of history and constitutional law. Such a belief displays a predatory and intolerant perception of the beliefs of others and when followed by action would result in tremendous violence and destruction - again. And the result of that thinking is in no small part an organized activity that is little more than a cluster of oligarchic media empires busily perverting the political process in this country.

[struggle4progress]

84. Well, before we all set our hair ablaze and rush screaming into the night, let me remark

that the silly NC bill was introduced Tuesday and shipped off to some legislative committee; that by Thursday even the rightwing Franklin Graham had opposed it and the House leadership had described it as "dead"; and today one of the NC bills sponsors is quoted in the newspapers apologizing for it

That is, it lasted about as long as would have been expected for a really wackadoodle bill, rather comparable to what might have be expected if it had instead called for all North Carolinians to go outside and take off their clothes at noon Sunday to await the opening of the Stargate Portal and transport to Alpha Centauri

[rrneck]

132. That's a fine example of what I'm talking about.

That whackadoodle bill never had a chance of passage, and the goof that proposed it knew it. But he also knew that there was a sufficient number of constituents who would like to see it. Considering the location, that means that a good deal more than one third of the population thinks a theocracy is a splendid idea, and most of them don't even know what the word means.

Do you think Rep. Whackadoodle would have thought it a good idea to propose legislation to compel people to believe in UFO's? No. That's because religion is just as much in the entertainment business as Hollywood, and they have a lot less compunction about using their money and power to influence government. Hence the whackadoodle "statement" in response to, I believe it was, complaints about opening official sessions with prayer.

So before you rush flaming into the night because you think mean old atheist was dissing religion, this is just another skirmish in the culture wars and in and of itself means very little. Lots of people believe lots of foolish things. But the purveyors of certain foolish things are making a fortune selling them to a credulous public. When they treat citizenship like the source of a revenue stream it gets difficult to convince people that their government is the best tool to protect their interest. Entertainment masquerading as serious religion has been devouring our culture and a lot of people have suffered for it. Since those who profess to really understand religion have been unable to police their own ranks you're just going to have to deal with the shit that gets inadvertently splashed on you in the culture war shitfest.

[struggle4progress]

136. Yes, it's about some idiotic city council demanding to open council meetings with prayers,

as I pointed out here

It's fine with me if you don't share my religious views, and I understand completely if the fundamentalist disgust you. I expect that your suggestion -- that the so-called "culture war" partly results because persons such as myself "have been unable to police their own ranks" -- would be be revealed to you as silly, if you would think carefully about it, because persons such as myself have no credibility whatsoever with the fundamentalists: at best, they regard me as a heretic; usually they think I'm an atheist; and often they regards me as a satanist

If you reread my posts carefully, you will see that, in this thread, I have not complained anywhere about your views on religion or anyone else's views of religion, nor have I anywhere in this thread complained "mean old atheist was dissing religion" or any other such nonsense: these perceptions are simply figments of your own active imagination

What I have actually done is point out that the fraction of people who believe we need an official religion is about the same as the fractions who think extraterrestrials have visited earth or that ESP is real

You say, "Considering the location, that means that a good deal more than one third of the population thinks a theocracy is a splendid idea," but I think you are wrong: the bill was introduced on Tuesday and referred to committee that same day; by Thursday, even rightwinger Franklin Graham had come out against it and the Republican leadership had announced it was dead; and by Saturday, one of the bill's sponsors was in the newspapers apologizing for introducing it. If there was any serious organized support for such idiocy, the bill would still be alive and kicking; its quickly-announced demise means North Carolinians won't tolerate this shizz. In a way, that's too bad, because this bill (had it lived for two weeks instead of two days) might have be a delightful and productive talking point against "Republican lunatics who control the North Carolina General Assembly"

You are of course entirely connect certain "religious" displays with entertainment, money, and politics. That seems to me a very productive avenue to follow, with close attention to details that can be carefully studied

[rrneck]

140. If it fizzled that quickly with that little support that's certainly good news

and I'm happy to be wrong about its popularity. I'm from the south and I was raised not terribly far from where they will hand you a snake in church. I tend to think the worst about such things.

While those who think we should institute a theocracy in this country are a minority, there are politicians and corporations who will eagerly pander to them. At this point I usually post a big composite picture of the luminaries of the political and religious right but I think that's hardly necessary with you. The destruction of the commons is a real problem in this country and the privatization of government services is turning our government into a kleptocracy. While most people consider publicly owned infrastructure the commons, our national identity is part of the commons as well. Ideology has become a consumer product and organizations that produce it for profit thrive on both sides of the political aisle.

So while that thirty percent of people who believe UFO's exist are outliers, they aren't out looking for signs of extraterrestrial life three times a week. Those who support a theocracy are a politically motivated minority and they are paying a lot of money for it. And the organizations that profit from them are doing quite well. That's why religion is mentioned in the Constitution and UFO's are not.

I was raised Southern Baptist and my brother, a man for whom I have profound respect, was a missionary for many years. Those who follow the teachings of Christ are not deluded fools. But the theological brain trust that understands the real value of religion needs to get on the stick because they have allowed their stock and trade to become a cudgel for wealthy social dominators - again. It is difficult for people to distinguish between "good religion" and "bad religion" when both the good and the bad are struggling for a piece of the national identity pie.

I don't have a solution for the problem. I wish I did. I don't know how religion is supposed to survive when the tools of its survival are the implements of our destruction.

[struggle4progress]

137. Here's the sort of thing folks in NC should be paying attention to:

North Carolina College Voting Bill Seeks To Tax Parents Of Students Who Change Registration

[rrneck]

138. Absolutely.

The culture wars are bread and circus.

[Ter]

133. Those who don't believe it are the nuts

n/t

[Phillip McCleod]

7. interesting.. almost as many as believe jesus will return w/in 40 years..

http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/jesus-christs-return-to-earth/

41% believe he'll be back to take the throne as monarch of the earth by 2050. yep we're wasting our time struggling for democracy, since jesus will institute an absolute global monarchy when he gets back.

all this democracy stuff?

apparently that's just one of the games the mice play while the cat's away.

[hrmjustin]

26. I don't think he is comming in my lifetime but I do believe...

...he will return before the end of humanity. I don't believe in the Rapture at all but I think Jesus will come back.

[Phillip McCleod]

27. far out.

and absolutely absurd.

he ain't coming back. get over it. the world is not going to end (other than, y'know, by natural causes in millions of years).

do you WANT a global theocratic state, as long as your invisible beardo buddy is wearing the crown?

[hrmjustin]

32. I think he is coming at the end of humanity.

And no I do not want religion in government here.

[Phillip McCleod]

47. then we're both heretics, i guess.

..since that's not what the biblical prophecy predicts, which is the end of all living things and the establishment of an absolute monarchy led by the apotheosis of a carpenter.

is that what we're working toward? is that what all this work and struggle for our rights has been for? to be subjects to a tyrant of body, mind, AND soul?

if jesus does come float down from the heavens in our lifetime, i hope somebody has the good sense to put him down before he kills everything and makes slaves of the remainder.

[hrmjustin]

48. Many biblical scholars and christians believe that the Book of Revelation should not have

been included in the canon of the bible. I don't take it that seriously.
When Jesus comes he will come in glory and in peace to start a new heavens and a new earth IMO.

[Phillip McCleod]

49. well if christians keep cherry picking up..

eventually they'll end up with Jefferson's bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

how is this any different than just making stuff up like joseph smith or l.ron hubby?

[hrmjustin]

53. You have to remember that when the NT was put together the Book of Revelation was not the only book

that was under consideration for entrance into the the canon of the bible. They settled on that book. Several churches consider other books to be more direct revelation from God. We must remember that there were likely up to 50 separate bibles in the first and second century that was written about Jesus. So while the councils in the fourth century said these 27 books are divinely inspired there are other books out there as well.

[tabasco]

71. Pickin' and choosin' which fairy tales to believe

Religion is stifling human progress.

[hrmjustin]

72. Well not everyone agrees it is fairy tales.

[Phillip McCleod]

81. yeh i read the 'lost books of the bible' cover to cover..

..as many of the nag hammadi texts as have been published.. and various other apocrypha as well.

the winnowing process had more to do with what the church in rome wanted to call 'orthodoxy', if such a thing could be obtained, than with the historicity or even coherence of the mythology that had developed around the christ figure. by that time multiple syncretisms had occurred in various regions spanning all of the levant, north africa, and away east and northeast.

none of which helps to support the thesis that it's anything but slightly insane to be waiting for the 2nd coming.

[hrmjustin]

90. I am not waiting for the second coming.

I would say as a matter of faith I believe Jesus will come back again. What happens after that I do not know. I am not an end times person because Jesus said even he did not know when the end was coming so do not try to guess.
It is not insane to have faith.

[Humanist_Activist]

92. Actually Jesus implied that his own apostles wouldn't "taste death" before he returned...

he's about 2000 years late.

[hrmjustin]

93. It is very true that the early church did think that the end was coming in their lifetimes.

And yes Jesus did imply that but he also said he did not know when the end times were. He might have thought himself it might happen soon.

[Humanist_Activist]

94. Aren't you implying that Jesus isn't God? I mean, can he just turn off his omniscience?

Its no secret that Christianity started out as an apocalyptic cult, and Jesus was cult leader(assuming he existed).

[hrmjustin]

98. The majority of Christians believe Jesus was not God when he was on Earth. He became divine when he

the Holy Spirit descended to heaven on Pentecost after he went to heaven.

[Humanist_Activist]

103. So he became a demigod, kinda like Perseus or Hercules?

ON EDIT: WAIT A MINUTE, your implication flies in the face of established Christian dogma, Jesus is both fully divine and fully human. This was established by the 3rd century or so. You are close to heresy here.

Oh, and this makes him a demigod from birth, like the two characters I mentioned above.

[hrmjustin]

106. Jesus was not man and God at the same time.

Jesus when here on Earth was Man. !0 days after he got to heaven at the feast of Penecost Jesus became divine. That is Christian doctrine.

[Phillip McCleod]

110. Technically that is Orthodox doctrine, not Christian doctrine.

Wow. My new phone capitalizes words for me. That's 'handy' since I have a missing pinky. I'm liking it. Probably easier to read too?

To the point.. what you say is not technically accurate. There was dissent and brutal suppression to bring that point of contention to a close.

Just more examples of Christian sectarian violence, oppression, and body count to keep the religious going another generation. All in the name of beliefs which cannot be substantiated and differences of opinion which can never be resolved. Ever. Based on beliefs that have absolutely zero basis in reality.

How is it not insane that 2000+ years later we are having the same discussion, and the body count keeps climbing?

[Humanist_Activist]

113. True, Arianism and other sects were brutally suppressed...

But it IS the belief shared by all major sects of Christianity(Catholicism, Orthodox, Protestantism).

ON EDIT: I was sort of playing devil's advocate in that I was judging his beliefs versus those of orthodox Christians.

[hrmjustin]

115. Where are we killing each other over the doctrine of Jesus divinity?

We were just discussing it. No harm done here my friend.

[Humanist_Activist]

119. We are talking about history, not current issues, back in the day, Christians did kill...

each other over varying beliefs in Jesus' divinity.

[hrmjustin]

122. Point taken but today we are not killing one another over the divinity of Christ.

[Phillip McCleod]

120. To bring the subthread back to point..

..'we' were killing each other over the doctrine of Jesus' divinity from about the 3rd CE up until.. let's see.. does Irish Catholic-Protestant violence ring a bell? Or the brutal suppression of Mormons in Missouri? Or the KKK?

It is that history of sectarian Christian violence that motivated the authors of the U.S. Constitution to establish the wall of separation between religion and government. Because 'We can believe what we want' ALWAYS leads if left unchecked to 'and you will too.'

[hrmjustin]

121. The KKK and Ireland was not about the divinity of Christ.

The Mormons you have a point. I also agree with you 100% that the government must never have religion in it. It does not mix well.

[Phillip McCleod]

123. The divinity of Christ violence lasted until about the 17th century.

Arianism as pointed out was still a punishable heresy in England when sir Newton was alive, and he was an Arian.

(BTW for those unfamiliar w/it.. Arianism has NO relation to Aryanism.)

[hrmjustin]

124. I know this but I was talking about today.

[Phillip McCleod]

125. I wasn't. I was talking about history this whole time.

The history of Christian sectarian violence which motivated the authors of the constitution to stack brick on mortar and separate religious belief from governmental policy.. supposedly what the OP is all about.

[hrmjustin]

127. OK fair point! Than we agree that the government must be secular.

[Phillip McCleod]

128. Of that let there be no doubt, friend.

[Phillip McCleod]

96. i fail to see the difference between 2nd coming and Jesus coming back again.

sounds like 6 of one and a 1/2 dozen of the other, to me.

but, ok. maybe i just don't 'get' your highly individuated form of religiosity. we can believe whatever we want, then, in total contradiction to reality, without reference to dogma or doctrine or religious texts, and use it to justify our actions and demand respect for our convictions in the public sphere?

..

and people accuse atheists of moral relativism.

[hrmjustin]

105. I accuse atheists of nothing.

I did not say Jesus coming back was not the second coming it is. I am just not sitting here waiting for it.I am sorry I was not clearer about it. We all believe what we believe. I do not demand respect from anyone. I give respect and I usually get it back in return. Yes I pick and choose what I think is true and what I don't think is rubbish.
By the way some of the most moral people I know are atheists and agnostics and some of the most immoral people I know are believers.

[Phillip McCleod]

107. 'We all believe what we believe.'

exactly. my grandma was schizophrenic and in 1981 told the preteen me that the year was 1999. she's been palming her meds.

believe me, her conviction was ironclad. at least it was benign.

tell me again how we should be free to believe anything. better yet, tell the victims of religious oppression and violence.

[hrmjustin]

108. So what we can't believe what we want? I don't oppress anyone my friend.

People can believe what they want. We can't tell people what to believe, but we can try to get people to have respect for different opinions and not to use their faith to oppress or commit violence on anyone. To do this we must teach respect for all people and the dignity of all people must be respected.

[Phillip McCleod]

111. Oh, we CAN believe what we want.

I won't dispute that. Grandma was perfectly ABLE to believe that the neighbors were stealing her soap and leaving their leftover sliver of soap in its' place. But she was wrong. In fact, she was insane.

At least she had an excuse.. her disorder was genetic.

[hrmjustin]

112. Are you implying that believers or I am insane for believing or am I just reading you wrong.

[Humanist_Activist]

109. What would constitute the end of humanity? Extinction?

If so, how? Nuclear war, asteroid strike, other type of global disaster?

Being on one planet, we are vulnerable to such things, so you think Jesus will come back when such events happen?

If so, should we bother trying to save ourselves from such disasters?

Let's take a longer view, assuming that we don't kill ourselves, and no global, extinction level events happen that we can't adapt to, and we move off this rock, what then. Granted we are still vulnerable to localized events, such as something happening to the Sun, but taking it even further out, let's say centuries, or millenia from now, we may occupy a significant fraction of the Milky Way Galaxy. At that point, what would constitute the "end of humanity".

Or, if you want to take it out to hundreds of thousands, or millions of years, I doubt Homo Sapiens would still exist, however, our descendants most likely will, but evolution would have caused them to branch off into either one or many subspecies, would these still be classified as a humanity that Jesus would recognize, or did he finally show up when the last Homo Sapien died.

[hrmjustin]

114. I do not know.

I am sorry that I can't give you a better answer but I do not know what will happen at the second coming.

[Humanist_Activist]

117. I don't really expect an answer, I'm just illustrating some of the issues I have with this...

aspect of Christian belief, which frankly is rather silly, literally fantasy stuff.

[hrmjustin]

118. Your point of view.

[VirginiaTarheel]

143. Jesus will return for sure

But He told us that no one knows When He will return to rule and reign.

[Humanist_Activist]

146. See, beliefs like this is why I don't like Christians, and they frankly scare me...

you look forward to a theocratic dictatorship while others burn in hell for eternity, this is some fucked up shit.

[Arugula Latte]

95. It blows my mind that people really think this dead guy will come back.

The mental gymnastics involved to have "faith" in that utter nonsense ...

You might as well believe that Athena came out of Zeus' head.

[Phillip McCleod]

97. she didn't?!

[Arugula Latte]

99. I'm sorry ... there, there ...

*pats hand*

[RKP5637]

101. They better prepare, as he's coming to kick their asses !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[Fantastic Anarchist]

8. We are a nation of idiots. n/t

[struggle4progress]

9. Three in Four Americans Believe in Paranormal

June 16, 2005
Little change from similar results in 2001
by David W. Moore
GALLUP NEWS SERVICE
PRINCETON, NJ -- About three in four Americans profess at least one paranormal belief, according to a recent Gallup survey. The most popular is extrasensory perception (ESP), mentioned by 41%, followed closely by belief in haunted houses (37%)...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/16915/three-four-americans-believe-paranormal.aspx

[BlueJazz]

59. I was born with ESP and I'm extremely proud that I can "Sense things"

For example: 75 percent of Americans are most likely unaware of what the hell is going on around them.

[struggle4progress]

65. I had to give up my ESP: it was too fuggin confusin listenin t'all th'noise

[Phillip McCleod]

130. i had to give up my ISP.

does that count?

[struggle4progress]

131. Everybody told Cleopatra to give up her ASP, but she didn't listen

[Tribalceltic]

10. So...

34% of Americans are anti-american traitors who oppose the constitution. Is the death penalty still in effect for treason?

[danbeee46]

69. Nope..............

........because Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are still walking around free.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

13. Well...90% or so of Americans favor background checks for gun purchases too but...

...no one listens to them, so the Taliban should be SOL on this one. If 80-90% doesn't count, sure as Hell 34 percent doesn't.

So the AmeriTaliban can just f*ck off.

[n2doc]

14. Bush's base. And McCain's , and Mitt's.

I guess these folks have never bothered to read, or respect, the Constitution.

[EC]

15. Since it's unconstitutional - why was this

question even asked in the first place? We shouldn't encourage the nuts.

[struggle4progress]

19. There's a local fight in a North Carolina town about prayers before city council meetings,

so a handful of legislators in the Republican-controlled General Assembly decided they could win wackadoodle friends with a bill to establish a state religion, with the usual blah-blah about the Tenth Amendment. But even most of the Republican leadership knows the bill wanders into KraaazyLand and has stated it won't go anywhere. Still, this hit the news, as bill sponsors intended, and it got the sponsors names in print, as intended, so HuffPo has decided its a hot topic to talk about

[MindPilot]

39. the 34% who said "not sure" are the ones who worry me.

One third do not know enough about what is in the BoR & Constitution to say "no".

Our president is a constitutional law professor; there should not be this level of national ignorance.

[Bjorn Against]

16. Just wait until they figure out the state religion is not their version of Christianity

There are many different Christian denominations and they are often in disagreement with one another. It seems that all the people calling for a Christian government seem to assume it will be based around their particular version of Christianity, the moment a state religion is established that does not revolve around their specific interpretation of what Christianity is they will be the ones yelling the loudest to get religion out of government.

[Populist_Prole]

45. Major Bingo with that comment

If these lunkheads were to think things through, they'd see that they would be cutting off their noses to spite their face if their particular sect wasn't the "official" one.

Of course they're certainly NOT thinking critically, rather more like a bellicose drunk. In their hatred for President Obama they are simply and reflexively snapping as deliberately hard right as they can in some misguided scorched earth policy.

Cool username BTW

[defacto7]

63. Now that's the truth! n/t

[hobbit709]

17. Idiocracy is a documentary.

[mountain grammy]

85. It really is. I laughed through my tears.

[PSPS]

21. A "national HuffPost/YouGov" poll? Oh, please.

These ridiculous attention-seeking "stories" from the silly Huffington Post don't belong in LBN. It would be quite easy to get a "national HuffPost/YouGov poll" that said "One-Third Of Americans" support anything from slavery to public beheading.

[love_katz]

31. ^^^^^This^^^^^

Thank you for the perspective. It helps to keep this in mind when reading disheartening information like the OP.

More idiocy from the Talibornagains.

[Stainless]

22. Religion is disgusting

Mixing government with religion is vile.

[hue]

23. I had a psych professor once who thought mental rigidity should be a psych diagnosis.

[tincanguy]

24. It has everything to do with the man running the State of North Carolina

Art Pope a close ally with the Koch Brothers owns the state!

http://www.artpopeexposed.com/

[we can do it]

28. Its the same buch who thinks Jeebus rode dinosaurs and there was an ark.

Who cares, they are beyond help.

[excringency]

30. I heartily approve of a state religion if

it is along the same lines as state tree or official state reptile. Here in Texas next to the Texas longhorn as the official large mammal, the cowboy boot as the state's footwear, and chili as the state dish we could have "Intolerant Fundamental Evangelical Christianity That Applies and Benefits Only The White Male Patriarchy" as the official state religion.

[Jerry442]

33. I really wish we had an alternative reality where we could watch this sort of thing play out.

Wouldn't you love to see the reactions of the members of the Whoop and Holler Chapel when their sect got banned because it didn't meet the state-approved religion guidelines?

[Phillip McCleod]

50. mannn... that would be *really* useful. :)

[on point]

34. People who love the constitution but understand neither the letter nor spirit of it

[DissidentVoice]

36. But WHICH SECT of Christianity?

These people who answered this question did not apparently consider which sect of Christianity would be the "state religion."

There are profound (to say the least) differences between Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists and the myriad of "non-denominational" churches. I am a member of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and have had the churches who insist on "adult/believer's baptism" say to me that my church and others who baptise infants aren't "truly Christian" because "the Bible doesn't sanction sprinkling babies."

All Christian churches claim to be based on the Bible...but which Bible? Fundamentalists (especially in the South) insist on the King James Version...but which King James Version? The one sold in the United States is in the public domain and is a 1794 revision. Versions sold in the British Commonwealth differ (sometimes drastically) and are under Crown Copyright. Then there are the myriad English translations available...NIV, RSV, NRSV, ESV...and some churches accept the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals as inspired (Roman Catholics, Orthodox), others as kind of a "supplement" (Anglicans/Episcopalians, Lutherans) and others (mostly fundamentalists) think they are Satanic.

If we go down that road, there is a chance we could end up as many of the Muslim countries do, fighting over which sect (Sunni, Shi'a, Wahabbi) is truly the will of Allah. And what would such a ruling say for those in this country of another religion (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Unitarian Universalists, Wiccans, Buddhists) or of no religion?

I almost went to seminary some years ago. I fully support the Constitutional guarantee of no state religion. Martin Luther spoke of the kingdoms of the left and right hand - the left being the kingdom of the world (or state) and the right being the kingdom of Heaven - and that they are NOT to be mixed.

[wandy]

51. Ya know, If I didn't have to have a front row seat, and could observe from a safe distance......

Alpha Centauri maybe?
That would be fun to watch.
Roman Catholics vs. Orthodox Catholics it's self would be worth the price of admission.

[defacto7]

66. I probably would go like this....

First, destroy the non-theists...

Then destroy all pagans and non Abrahamic religions

Then rid America of the Judeo and Muslim sects of the Abrahamic root

Then it would be between the Catholics and the Protestants "again"

Welcome to the crusades!

The Martin Luther reference may have been a reference to the Catholics who were the state and the Kingdom of Heaven which would have been his new reformation which BTW caused the sacking of Rome during the renaissance with the most heinous inhuman acts ever recorded in the history of mankind.

But that aside... all of the above are good arguments for separation of Church and state.

[mwooldri]

89. There's plenty of differences between the sects themselves.

Lutherans - Missouri Synod - or the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America... and other Lutheran offshoots.
Anglicans - I could say "Church of England" because all the various theological differences are in the Anglican Communion. Even the wider Anglican communion has lots of schisms in it.

And then which church is right, based on which church is in communion with who ? ELCA is in communion with ECUSA, which in turn is part of the wider Anglican Communion (with CofE etc).

I do view mainline Christianity church communion as a form of "Christian Internet", except for the Catholic branch which appears to not have a church in full communion with it that is also in full communion with a church that doesn't recognize the Pope. All Protestant branches have links and interweave with each other.

[Phillip McCleod]

104. Enough of a difference to fight many the religious war over.

Starting before the Nicene councils.. in fact motivating those councils in order to hold the Roman empire together a while longer.

It was those wars between Christian sects.. like the 30 years war not distant in memory of the likes of Jefferson and Franklin.. that motivated the building of a wall of separation. It wasn't war between Christianity and Islam, or Islam and Hinduism, or Hinduism and Buddhism, or .. etc. all of which have also occurred .. that motivated the founders to make the U.S. a secular state. It was sectarian Christian violence.

[UrbScotty]

37. While the other 2/3 of us have actually read the Constitution (nt)

[bulloney]

38. These people who support a state religion somehow think this makes them holier than thou.

They're the same bunch who try to drag a display of the 10 Commandments on courthouses or other public property.

[patrice]

42. My read of The Gospel suggests that would be the opposite of the life of Christ, his anti-life.

It was, after-all, his de facto state-religion that killed him.

[iandhr]

44. I agree with the OP

I don't know weather to laugh or cry.

[classof56]

52. Didn't O'Reilly declare awhile back that christianity is not a religion it's a philosophy?

In my oh-so-Baptist upbringing, at one point it was declared that christianity was not a religion it was a way of life. Then there's all those many-many denominations. I became alarmed enough a few years ago that I walked away from the Baptist church I attended and haven't looked back.

If the 34% can get their competing tenets, doctrines, scriptural interpretations, etc. figured out, I'll be astounded. In the meantime, perhaps the 34 and 32 percenters ought to take an in-depth look at what Jesus had to say about life, the universe and everything. As something of a biblical scholar, I'm guessing he would not approve of this official state religion idea. I do recall, however, that when Dubya said his favorite political philosopher was his lord and savior Jesus Christ, the evangelical fundies fell all over themselves, praising god that this "man of faith" could be their leader. Then he said god told him to run, and the deal was sealed. Sigh...

Religion. Philosophy. Way of Life. It's all so confusing...and they want to change our constitution to declare whichever one it is as our official state religion? All I can do is roll my eyes and hope I get to vote on that one.

Blessings.

[JoePhilly]

54. Its the same folks who are terrified of Shria law.

[Wolf Frankula]

56. It would end badly

The Church of the Fighting Amurkan Jesus of Pigkick, Georgia fighting the Church of the Fighting Blond Haired Blue Eyed Amurkan Jesus of Hoghump, Wyoming (tell me Why Oming?) over what accent Jesus spoke King James Bible English with.

Eventually the Chinese would invade, and outlaw all forms of Christianity.

Wolf

[appleannie1]

57. The majority still rules in this country. We need to work hard to insure it always does.

[Agnosticsherbet]

60. You can fool some of the people some of the time, part of the people...

part of the time.

But one third are always idiots.

[drm604]

64. Notice how the headline emphasizes the minority opinion.

How about

"Two-Thirds of Americans do not support Christianity as State Religion"

[Why Syzygy]

67. One third...

of the population is consistently insane. You can bank on it.

[sakabatou]

68. And politicians support it too

[The Second Stone]

70. The 47% come through again

to protect us from the stupid third.

As a Christian, there is nothing I want less than a state religion. It would wind up being a Sarah Palin sort of collection of idiots.

[dtotire]

73. What Denomination of Christianity?

[LoisB]

76. Which version of "Christianity"?

[mac56]

77. One third is NOT "widespread support."

[Hekate]

78. Morons know no history. Their "brand" of religion is largely heretical...

... according to European theocracies of centuries past.

The Founding Fathers were a lot closer to these events than we are today and they knew that they were not just protecting Deists and Atheists with the Bill of Rights, but Christians as well. Whole communities of dissenting Christians were wiped out across Europe in war after war after being declared heretics or apostates or blasphemers, by sword and fire and torture.

Idiots. American idiots.

[OldHippieChick]

82. One can only assume these are the same people

who scream about their "freedoms and liberties" being taken away whenever reasonable gun safety is discussed. Apparently they define "freedom" differently than our founders. Who woulda guessed?

[mwooldri]

83. Having a state religion of Christianity is far too broad.

What is acceptable to one Christian sect is heresy to another.

[1ProudAtheist]

86. Lest We Forget

That fleeing the oppression of the Christian Religion was the basis for the founding of this nation.

[mountain grammy]

88. My sister in law says "it's all in God's hands. He will decide what happens."

so I said, ok, quit voting.

[paleotn]

129. No it's not. It's in Vishnu's hands.....

....he's got 4 so he beats the Christian god hands down.

[brewens]

102. That's media bias for you. "Wide spread support". Clearly there is even wider

spread opposition.

[truebluegreen]

126. The same third as the Booosch dead-enders

altho even their numbers got whittled down in the end.

But but but real 'Muricans, every one!

[xxqqqzme]

134. How is 34%

'widespread support'? A candidate polling at 34% would be going down to defeat.

[blkmusclmachine]

135. 34% want The USA to be another Iran.

The King James Version, of course.

[MountainLaurel]

139. The Constitution: You're doin' it wrong n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

142. which is to say 2/3rds do not, which is a good number of sensible people for one country to have

[slackmaster]

144. Our eduction system is not doing an adequate job of teaching the basics of US history or civics

Even the most devout Christians should understand and appreciate the importance of the separation of church and state. Both institutions benefit from it.