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Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:13 PM

Student Suspended for Refusing to Wear RFID Tracker Loses Lawsuit

Source: Wired

A Texas high school student who claimed her student identification was the “Mark of the Beast” because it was implanted with a radio-frequency identification chip has lost her federal court bid Tuesday challenging her suspension for refusing to wear the card around her neck.

Radio-frequency identification devices are a daily part of the electronic age — found in passports, and library and payment cards. Eventually they’re expected to replace bar-code labels on consumer goods. Now schools across the nation are slowly adopting them as well.

Northside Independent School District in San Antonio began issuing the RFID-chip-laden student-body cards when the semester began in the fall. The ID badge has a bar code associated with a student’s Social Security number, and the RFID chip monitors pupils’ movements on campus, from when they arrive until when they leave.

Sophomore Andrea Hernandez was notified in November by the Northside Independent School District in San Antonio that she won’t be able to continue attending John Jay High School unless she wears the badge around her neck. The district said the girl, who objects largely on religious grounds, would have to attend another high school that does not employ the RFID tags.

Read more: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/01/student-rfid-suspension/

195 replies, 15750 views

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Reply Student Suspended for Refusing to Wear RFID Tracker Loses Lawsuit (Original post)
IDemo Jan 2013 OP
ChairmanAgnostic Jan 2013 #1
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #35
ET Awful Jan 2013 #58
TheMadMonk Jan 2013 #90
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #114
MADem Jan 2013 #126
dixiegrrrrl Jan 2013 #149
BlueNoteSpecial Jan 2013 #65
docgee Jan 2013 #68
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #74
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #86
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #101
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #107
customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #177
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #188
Sunlei Jan 2013 #178
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #187
FiveGoodMen Jan 2013 #131
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #150
FiveGoodMen Jan 2013 #165
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #167
alp227 Jan 2013 #159
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #162
alp227 Jan 2013 #163
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #166
alp227 Jan 2013 #169
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #170
alp227 Jan 2013 #171
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #172
DeschutesRiver Jan 2013 #184
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #185
DeschutesRiver Jan 2013 #191
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #195
MADem Jan 2013 #127
dixiegrrrrl Jan 2013 #152
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #155
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #70
ChairmanAgnostic Jan 2013 #80
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #99
Cynicus Emeritus Jan 2013 #112
ChairmanAgnostic Jan 2013 #120
Occulus Jan 2013 #137
BlueNoteSpecial Jan 2013 #83
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #87
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #94
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #103
Occulus Jan 2013 #138
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #140
Occulus Jan 2013 #142
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #160
Mutatis Mutandis Jan 2013 #175
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #189
TheBlackAdder Jan 2013 #71
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #77
TheBlackAdder Jan 2013 #115
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #183
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #117
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #182
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #186
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #190
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #194
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #116
Tempest Jan 2013 #2
TeamPooka Jan 2013 #5
Tempest Jan 2013 #8
Javaman Jan 2013 #14
Tempest Jan 2013 #19
Javaman Jan 2013 #64
GeorgeGist Jan 2013 #21
rhett o rick Jan 2013 #31
leveymg Jan 2013 #55
atreides1 Jan 2013 #72
Kelvin Mace Jan 2013 #79
jeff47 Jan 2013 #93
Occulus Jan 2013 #139
Ter Jan 2013 #27
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #36
freshwest Jan 2013 #3
Ter Jan 2013 #28
The Second Stone Jan 2013 #4
TeamPooka Jan 2013 #6
Tab Jan 2013 #17
ChairmanAgnostic Jan 2013 #81
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #37
DonViejo Jan 2013 #7
KoKo Jan 2013 #9
DonViejo Jan 2013 #12
Robb Jan 2013 #16
Cynicus Emeritus Jan 2013 #10
BainsBane Jan 2013 #11
crim son Jan 2013 #33
Cynicus Emeritus Jan 2013 #111
BainsBane Jan 2013 #113
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #133
Cynicus Emeritus Jan 2013 #144
daschess1987 Jan 2013 #20
ThoughtCriminal Jan 2013 #32
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #34
Trillo Jan 2013 #13
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #38
Trillo Jan 2013 #47
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #49
Trillo Jan 2013 #51
tammywammy Jan 2013 #63
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #118
Trillo Jan 2013 #143
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #154
Canoe52 Jan 2013 #15
JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2013 #56
FiveGoodMen Jan 2013 #193
Joe Shlabotnik Jan 2013 #18
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #39
Joe Shlabotnik Jan 2013 #42
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #45
Joe Shlabotnik Jan 2013 #48
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #50
Joe Shlabotnik Jan 2013 #52
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #119
neovente Jan 2013 #84
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #134
Angry Dragon Jan 2013 #22
lunasun Jan 2013 #108
think Jan 2013 #128
tomm2thumbs Jan 2013 #23
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #24
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #40
Ash_F Jan 2013 #69
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #85
Ash_F Jan 2013 #88
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #96
Ash_F Jan 2013 #102
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #105
LiberalFighter Jan 2013 #78
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #82
LiberalFighter Jan 2013 #89
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #92
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #147
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #146
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #153
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #157
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #158
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #161
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #164
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #168
tammywammy Jan 2013 #192
Sunlei Jan 2013 #25
SemperEadem Jan 2013 #59
Sunlei Jan 2013 #173
SemperEadem Jan 2013 #181
Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #148
Sunlei Jan 2013 #174
Politicalboi Jan 2013 #26
SemperEadem Jan 2013 #60
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #29
defacto7 Jan 2013 #54
lunasun Jan 2013 #109
RKP5637 Jan 2013 #125
LanternWaste Jan 2013 #135
LiberalFighter Jan 2013 #30
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #43
LiberalFighter Jan 2013 #73
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #91
jeff47 Jan 2013 #95
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #106
blkmusclmachine Jan 2013 #41
Comrade_McKenzie Jan 2013 #44
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #46
sickwidit Jan 2013 #100
Thegonagle Jan 2013 #132
LarryNM Jan 2013 #53
LiberalFighter Jan 2013 #75
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #121
LiberalFighter Jan 2013 #145
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #151
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #122
SkyDaddy7 Jan 2013 #57
SemperEadem Jan 2013 #61
Macoy51 Jan 2013 #62
jeff47 Jan 2013 #97
Macoy51 Jan 2013 #176
jeff47 Jan 2013 #179
ripcord Jan 2013 #66
dembotoz Jan 2013 #67
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #76
randome Jan 2013 #98
yellowcanine Jan 2013 #104
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #123
lunasun Jan 2013 #110
reACTIONary Jan 2013 #124
Xithras Jan 2013 #129
hunter Jan 2013 #136
Posteritatis Jan 2013 #141
avebury Jan 2013 #130
tawadi Jan 2013 #156
actslikeacarrot Jan 2013 #180

Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:19 PM

1. I dislike religions, but RFIDing students?

That's just wrong.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:06 AM

35. Why is that wrong? It's just an id. If they swiped in...

...would that be wrong? What's the big deal?

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:44 AM

58. An RFID isn't simply "swiped". An RFID is read from a distance.

RF means "radio frequency".

An RFID can be used to track someone everywhere they go if you ever wanted to do so.

They have been proposed as marketing tools so not only does an individual have an RFID, but so do all products, so as you walk into a store, they know it's YOU walking in to the store, if you buy any product from hemorrhoid cream to beer, it's got an RFID that's now associated with you. The concept was to use these tags to then trigger not only advertisements on your home television based on purchased made by you and tracked via RFID, but to trigger targeted advertising in mall/store displays, etc.

The original use (to my recollection) was in warehousing and manufacturing to track products from receipt to shipping for both inventory control and (in some industries such as pharmaceuticals and food products) to track where merchandise had been shipped in case of a recall).

RFID's for people isn't really a good idea.

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Response to ET Awful (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:46 AM

90. Whilst this is true, it's also practicable (and practiced)...

 

...to make it "swipe and go" with a simple flip cover. Best of both worlds if it's implemented correctly.

Hell on Earth is implemented badly. Suposedly readable at a distance. Many swipe and gos seem to require 1/2 to a full second of close proximity and near imobility to properly register. Strikes me your data is safe enough from casual intrusion. Push comes to shove, cutting a key from a photograph is no great task.

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Response to ET Awful (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:35 PM

114. Yes, your description is basically correct, but I would note...

...that while their doesn't have to be in physical contact, the range is rather limited, a few yards or so from the reader.

The fact that physical contact and correct alignment is not necessary is what differentiates this technology from other identification systems. That works well with kids, who are not going to line up to swipe or scan a card.

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Response to ET Awful (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:45 PM

126. It's made to track them--IN THE SCHOOL. Once the student leaves campus, they can remove the

ID from around their neck and stuff it in a lead envelope.

Problem solved.

It's not implanted in their asses!

A careful tap of a hammer can disable the things, too.

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Response to ET Awful (Reply #58)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:00 PM

149. As in Minority Report...see the movie for how evil this can become.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:40 AM

65. "What's the big deal?"

This is the question always asked, by enablers of lost freedoms, rights, and standards, that took lives, and lifetimes to achieve, throughout our history. They always ask this question in the most innocent, and innocuous of terms, stating "it's not that bad", or "if you have nothing to hide...", rolling over, submitting, aghast that anyone would consider the downside. It's a big deal because the People say it's a big deal, because the People have seen this type of baiting before, from bills of attainder, through worker solidarity, and safety, all the way to the "war" on....pick one. If you have to ask the "what's the big deal" question?, you just won't "get" the answers anyway!... See?!!!, see how it works?

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Response to BlueNoteSpecial (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:09 AM

68. +1000 Exactly! nt

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Response to BlueNoteSpecial (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:47 AM

74. They always ask the same question:

"If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem."

Of course, when the tables are turned they get royally pissed off.

Back in 2002, a police woman who made enemies of her bosses for suing (and winning) for sexual harassment was indicted on drug charges after police pulled her garbage from the her driveway, recovered a used tampon, and tested it for drugs and semen. They claimed that they were completely in their rights to search trash without a warrant.

When the local independent paper decided to search the trash of the local DA, the police chief and the mayor, the DA took it in stride, but the police chief and the mayor went ballistic and threatened arrest and civil action.

http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-1616-rubbish_.html

This kind of shit is a direct result of the idiotic "war on drugs". The use of RFID tags is partially that, and a result of the pants-wetting fear mongers post 9/11, and now gun violence.

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Response to BlueNoteSpecial (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:31 AM

86. Its a ding dong high school. HS kids have always been...

... tracked, counted, and scheduled since long, long ago. Parents expect the school to know where their kids are, when they arrive and when they leave. Those are legitimate, reasonable, and understandable goals. This makes it easier to do and provides a financial benefit to the school.

There is nothing wrong with it. To the contrary, it makes life better for the students, the teachers and the parents.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #86)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:18 PM

101. Ther is a difference between tracking kids

and placing them under surveillance.

Also, roll calls, lesson plans, and scheduled activities do NOT require hundreds of thousands of dollars to install and maintain, just pencil and paper.

What is wrong with it is it indoctrinates children to the surveillance society .

This is what you do to prisoners, not children/teens.



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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #101)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:39 PM

107. After visiting the school's web site...

... it seems that the principle reason is not "surveillance" but to increase the school's revenue from the state by improving roll calls in a way that can't be done with pencil and paper.

They hope it will improve attendance records when a kid is not in class at the time of the roll call but actually is in the school building. I'm not sure of the mechanics, but if they can locate the kid and count his presence, they get more revenue from the state.

The whole point of the pilot is to see if the increased accuracy of attendance records increases revenue and makes the system cost effective. Cost effective meaning getting much more money for the school than the system costs.

My bet is that if they get more money than it costs, it stays. If they don't, it goes. In any case its just tracking attendance, not nefarious surveillance.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #107)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 07:21 AM

177. Sounds like it's enabling fraud

If the student is not in class, how are they learning things supposedly taught there?

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #177)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 04:47 PM

188. Its up to the state to decide...

...whether the accounting system is accurate and fair and prevents fraud or if it enables or encourages some form of cheating. If the state isn't satisfied the won't, and shouldn't, pay for the "extra" students. If the system is a fair accounting they definitely should pay for the students that are being served.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #107)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 07:31 AM

178. the school cares more about the card in the school than the actual child.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #178)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 04:43 PM

187. I think the school cares about the actual child...

...and knows that the additional funding will help the kids. They may have some lessor concern for school safety. I don't think they care about anything else. Why would they?

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #86)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:11 PM

131. A post befitting the name of its poster

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #131)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:02 PM

150. There are those who...

...want our schools to adopt cutting edge advanced technology in order to relieve our teachers of paper-pushing administrative burdens, save expense, and increase school revenues through better attendance tracking.

They are progressive.

Then there are fundamentalists who have a delusional fear the gubment, believe the school board is in league with the devil and think their student id is the mark of the beast.

I'm with the progressives. And you?

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #150)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:21 AM

165. I'm with the people who wrote the 4th Amendment

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #165)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:27 AM

167. Unreasonable searches and seizures? I don't see...

...how that is relevant. Not even the ding-bat Rutherford foundation claimed that. It was litigated on first amendment religious grounds, wasn't it?

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #86)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:00 AM

159. Except the tracking is thru roll calls rather than virtual tracking.

Teacher takes roll at beginning. Show up late, get a tardy counted on your record. Unexcused absence = robo-call home. I'm ok with keeping in touch via mobile phone. However if parents need to rely on frickin' RFIDs to know where their kids are, they are FAILURES as parents.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #159)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:12 AM

162. This system really seems to be about school funding...

...the school receives state funding for each student for each day he attends. The accounting takes place according to state standards. With the traditional roll call, when the student is not in "home room" in the morning, the school can't get credit. Even if he is at school, but just not in his seat. With this system, if the student is anywhere in the building he gets counted as present, so if he isn't in home room johnny on the spot the school still get credit because they can prove he was in attendance.

The school (or the district, I can't determine which) is expecting to pull in an additional two million a year. This is a pilot program at two schools to see if they can achieve that.

I'm all for using technology to improve administrative tasks and bring in more revenue for the kids.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #162)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:13 AM

163. Instead of rationalizing this invasion of privacy how about a better solution for school funding?

Look at how schools have to rely on this invasive RFID, soft drink machines, pleas for parcel taxes, etc. for funding. What does that say about the states and nation?

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Response to alp227 (Reply #163)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:22 AM

166. A better solution for school funding...

...is OK by me. I wouldn't object to it.

However, any system of funding needs accounting controls to ensure that what is being paid for is being received. A state government can't / shouldn't fund a school for students that don't really exist or are not actually attending class.

So, great, come up with a new system with proper attendance accounting controls and no tracking. I don't think anyone will complain.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #166)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:38 AM

169. So you can't trust teachers to take roll call properly?

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Response to alp227 (Reply #169)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:53 AM

170. A teacher can't count a kid who is not in the room...

...and the school loses money. This system can count every kid in the building, and the school gets the proper level of funding.

This isn't about trusting teachers. It's about what is and is not physically possible without technological assistance. It's just a practical problem that needs to be solved, not a melodrama of right verses wrong, the state vs. the individual, or God vs. 666.

Chill.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #170)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:06 AM

171. Except if the kid is on campus but NOT IN CLASS...why should the school still get per pupil funding?

Maybe student is sitting in the hallway listening to music or doing dope...I remember seeing my fair share of hallway loiterers when I was in HS.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #171)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:12 AM

172. They are using state standards for attendance. You would have to ask the state. NT

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #162)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 01:57 PM

184. What stops skipping kids from hanging their badges in their lockers or the restrooms or

in their friends backpacks in the morning, and then they skip out all day? Their "badges" will be read as though they were present.

RFID tags make it far easier to skip school. You at least have a chance at a decent attendance rate if the teacher takes the attendance in person. But with this new RFID method, the child that is "not in the home room in the morning" because he is at the mall will be counted as present because his trusty RFID tag is at school, just not in its owner's home room seat.

Is there a method to prevent this? No. Not unless you have eyes taking roll, not a scanner.

This seems like a way for a school with bad attendance to continue to get funding by pretending that the children are there, when it is only a badge left there by a skipping child. Legislating badges merely avoids the real issues for the poor attendance. Worse, it will encourage skipping school - I mean, it was tough to duck out of a class after roll call... but if all I had to do was ditch my badge for the day anywhere in the school and be counted?

Whose dumb idea was this? RFIDs are clearly all about the money. Not about the kids, or curing what is causing the attendance issues. This school ought to be ashamed.

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Response to DeschutesRiver (Reply #184)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 04:25 PM

185. RFIDs are clearly all about the money....

... absolutely, agreed. The school (or district, don't know which) seems to think it can bring in an extra two million dollars per year in state funding.

What's wrong with that?

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #185)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 05:36 PM

191. Kids will hang their RFID badges in the school, then not attend classes.

If there is no way to prevent that, then the attendance counts using RFID badge will never accurately reflect attendance (as would a real headcount, which is not that difficult nor time consuming). A school doesn't need money for a child who doesn't attend, right? So if a school gets funding for students who are not attending by showing inaccurate RFID numbers, then the school is committing fraud.

Are you asking what is wrong with that?

I guess they can just skip the RFID and go straight to the lie about attendance part. That would get them the extra funding AND save on the costs of the inaccurate RFID equipment.

So anyway, how will the school know if a child is in the building, or if the child has merely left his/her RFID badge behind to be counted?


And yes, if there is no solution to that problem of improving attendance, then the RFIDs are only being deployed by a school that wishes to to defraud the state, so that the state will allocate funding based on those fraudulent attendance numbers. If children are not attending a school when they should be, then the school needs to figure out why and try to eliminate the problems causing the lack of attendance.

Not lie about the numbers using a flawed RFID system that children can circumvent, and then hauling in $$$ that won't be used by the kids who aren't in attendance. And should be deployed in other in schools where children are showing up. This is about correctly allocating money, not giving it to a school to use to engage in fraud, which is what it is when you merely count the "existence" of a badge as actual attendance by a child.

It is critical to get resources where they are needed, not to line the pockets of those who are not acting in the best interests of the students. Real attendance counts provide certainty; RFID appears to provide nothing more than a "badge count". Not a true "child" count. The more I analyze it, the more clear it is that this RFID system cannot achieve its purported goals.


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Response to DeschutesRiver (Reply #191)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:13 PM

195. Interesting points. But they aren't civil rights issues. NT

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Response to BlueNoteSpecial (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:46 PM

127. Well, the people--or in this case, the person--didn't prevail.

She doesn't HAVE to attend that school, but if she does, she has to wear the ID around her neck while on campus.

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Response to BlueNoteSpecial (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:07 PM

152. Welcome to DU and thank you for the great reply.



sadly, "what's the big deal?" people are what made it possible to lose as much privacy and civil rights as we have lost to date.
and TPTB know this. They know they have to invest a little time, a lot of propoganda until all the ones who remember
"the good old days" of confidentiality are all gone.
I heard a formula some time ago on how it all works:
1/3 of the people ain't gonna figure out what the problem is
1/3 of the people ARE gonna figure it out
and they will waste thier time trying to get the remaining 1/3 to accept that there is a problem.
Meanwhile............

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Response to BlueNoteSpecial (Reply #65)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:27 PM

155. Yep, the deer in the headlight people, the I never did anything wrong crowd,

the ones that always select the response "don't know / not sure" ... the ones that will allow every last freedom to be taken from them while saying, "ain't this great!" And then one day they get trampled on, and they say, "what, how the fuck did this happen." And, then, it's way too late. The faithful and the do it for the children crowd. The herded lemmings and guppies.


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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #35)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:19 AM

70. It is wrong because 1984 was a cautionary tale

not a bloody political manifesto!

Let's see, we want an armed police presence in schools, metal detectors, tracking tags on students, and surveillance cameras.

You know what I want in schools? More teachers, books and decent hot lunches.

But we are cutting back on these to feed our police state fetish.

?1357587276

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #70)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:11 AM

80. exactly.

today's kids have grown to expect every move being done under CCTV cameras.

That alone would scare those folks who brought us this country, fighting for freedom and democracy.
Yet, in the cities where surveillance is pervasive and perversely widespread, there is little or no impact on crime. Chicago, London, several others, have seen little impact in prevention.

Most office buildings in Chicago now require ID to get in. Why? What security does that offer? What comfort level does that provide? How does that insure our freedom movement, freedom of assembly, or freedom of speech?

Once every school has RFID and xray machines, how will that make students better educated?

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #80)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:12 PM

99. plus is there is the ongoing cost to maintain

these machines, further draining budgets.

All security precautions I have seen so far not only do not mitigate danger, they increase it. The solution to nuts bringing guns into schools is not even more guns in schools.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #80)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:06 PM

112. The culture of subservience

 

Instead of gullible we would be better served being cynical. Many read "1984" but didn't learn from it.



Populist, Progressive, Libertarian for peoples rights. Corporations are not people.

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Response to Cynicus Emeritus (Reply #112)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:16 PM

120. and some think of it as an instruction manual.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #120)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:17 PM

137. Quite a few right here on DU.

The HOA threads are full of them.

Let me make it clear: if you support any form of a homeowner's association, wherein the homes are individual, and not part of a building sharing walls (such as a high-quality, high-price apartment, commonly called a "condominium" by the overly class conscious), you do not fully support, value, or appreciate the freedoms affirmed (and specifically not granted) by the American Constitution, period, and you desire that others' freedoms be similarly eroded.

HOAs are one of the most common forms of that kind of basic, fundamental erosion of freedom. As with all other forms of Authoritarianism, it's "reasonable" to demand a person paint their house beige and clip their lawns to a maximum of 2 1/2" until you really think about it.

I'd prefer permitting a home to have a few weeds, a lawn that hasn't been mowed for two weeks because it's fucking hot outside, and purple shutters on green paint over what I always see in HOA-"represented" subdivisions without a second thought. The former are free people; the latter only think they are.

I know better. That makes them angry because they are stupid, and call their stupidity a virtue.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #70)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:40 AM

83. ^^^THIS^^^

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #70)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:39 AM

87. More teachers, books and decent hot lunches....

...require more time and money. This program relieves teachers from having to count and record attendance, and gives them more time to teach. Since it allows the school to more accurately record attendance, it brings more money into the school.

It sounds to me like it supports the goals you are interested in.

(BTW, The schools web site says the RFID will be used to access the cafeteria. I don't know what this means, but if it means that kids in the school lunch program can pay for their lunch without the embarrassment of revealing that they are in the program, that's a good thing. A lot of families don't participate because of the embarrassment.)

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #87)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:03 PM

94. I seriously doubt that the 30 seconds required to call the roll

is easting into the teacher's work day.

Spending hundreds of thousands of dollars per school to install and maintain the system does.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #94)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:22 PM

103. It takes more than 30 seconds, and attendance reports have to be filled in...

...at least when I was in school, they did. These were collected and then reconciled at the end of the day. I believe I've read reports that count instruction time increases of five minutes or so per class as being significant in learning.

I would agree, however, that this seems like a trivial benefit if the system costs a substantial amount. So why would they be doing it? It seems that the real benefit is greater revenue through better attendance records when the kid is not in class at the time of the roll call but actually is in the school building. I'm not sure of the mechanics, but if they can locate the kid and count his presence, they get more revenue from the state.

The whole point of the pilot is to see if the increased accuracy of attendance records increases revenue and makes the system cost effective. Cost effective meaning getting much more money for the school than the system costs.

My bet is that if they get more money than it costs, it stays. If they don't, it goes. Why would they pay a lot for trivial information if it doesn't add to the bottom line? I don't think they would.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #87)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:21 PM

138. Don't make us laugh.

Taking attendance never took more than a few minutes in any class I attended ever.

Want more time for teachers to actually teach? Get rid of the useless mandatory testing required by NCLB and its attendant madness.

I promise you'll see more actual teaching from actual teachers.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #138)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:01 PM

140. Getting rid of the testing...

...can be done whether there is an RFID attendance tracking or not. Why bring it up?

I read the school web site. This is a pilot program. They are hoping to substantially increase their state funding by being able to improve their attendance tracking. If they can, it is well worth it - if not, they won't go forward with it.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #140)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:30 PM

142. Why bring it up? Here, I'll quote you:

"This program relieves teachers from having to count and record attendance, and gives them more time to teach."

If you want more time to actually teach, stop teaching to the test. I promise you more actual teaching (and that's not just facts regurgitated by rote, but includes comprehension and critical thinking) will get done. Your reasoning was flawed; you mentioned the time taken in attendance taking, and that was the whole of your primary point. Your point, as stated, was thus invalid, because attendance taking requires a very small slice of time at its worst.

Your final, following paranthetical, depending on school cafeterias and public school lunch assistance as they relate to social stigma, is better handled by requiring (as one possible, plausible, and very doable example of many possible solutions) school account lunch cards, into which parents deposit their child's lunch funds for the week/month/year, capable of use solely at the school, solely in the cafeteria. Students using public assistance would never be visibly 'flagged' for such; the flag would go on the account, into which the parents would deposit the public assistance money, or into which the state would deposit the money directly. Nobody but the cashier need ever know a child is taking public assistance to be fed a school lunch. That nearly every "solution" ever implemented includes a visible sign of the fact the student is getting public assistance to eat lunch means that the people proposing those "solutions" have a very wide and deep streak of evil when it come to the poor.

Since I grew up in a public school system in which creative thinking was still allowed and outside-the-box solutions were still accepted (and, more to the point, taught to be accepted), I'm able to come up with solutions for taking attendance other than hanging a wage-slave-style card around a kid's neck- things teachers already did for literally centuries without any real ongoing problem with the method. I'm willing to do this because I see the long-term consequences of such an easy, short-term 'fix' for a "problem" that has never really been a problem.

Isn't it funny how things that teachers have done for literally forever are suddenly not enough when dollar signs are involved? Ha ha ha. I must pause while I wipe away my tears of mirth.

Besides, if it takes too much time (and even five minutes is too long) for a teacher to take attendance in their own classroom, they are either freshly-minted and very green teachers, or don't have enough control over their students to be teaching in the first place. I can forgive the former and am willing to give lots of time and patience for that particular stew to cook. I will not tolerate, excuse, or condone the latter.

That's why I brought it up. Your reasons for defending these electronic leashes are better dealt with in far less intrusive ways.

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Response to Occulus (Reply #142)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:04 AM

160. RE: If you want more time to actually teach, stop teaching to the test.

You can stop teaching to the test AND implement an automated attendance system. The one is not dependent on the other. If both are good ideas, do both.

RE if it takes too much time for a teacher to take attendance in their own classroom...

I've looked into this a bit more. The problem is not that it takes too long, the problem is that the students aren't in the room to be counted present. The result is that the school loses state funding. With this system they just have to be in the building and they are counted. This solution fits the problem very well.

RE: Isn't it funny how things that teachers have done for literally forever are suddenly not enough when dollar signs are involved?

School funding - dollar signs - are very important for education. Nothing funny about it at all. If automated systems can improve administrative choirs such as attendance accounting and put more money where it is needed, I am all for it and I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #35)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:35 AM

175. drip by drop, by cover of labyrinthine code masquerading as law, and sealed with the kiss of years

 

of 'product placement' and normalisation in the zeitgeist, thus is first your privacy, then your very liberty bled out.

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Response to Mutatis Mutandis (Reply #175)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 04:49 PM

189. Very poetic. Changed things having been changed...

...its just a slippery slope argument. All of life is lived on a slippery slope. Best to get used to it.

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Response to ChairmanAgnostic (Reply #1)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:40 AM

71. RFID works both ways.

It can not only prove a child wasn't in class but also can prove that a child was somewhere when the teacher claims otherwise.

With regard to RFID distances, accurate scans are from a dozen feet away or so, it's not an EZPass type of transponder.

Now, the only thing I would worry about is the type of data on the card. There should be no personal identifiable information on the card as RFID readers are relatively cheap.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #71)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:51 AM

77. Let me see,

they need a $100,000 plus system to know if students are in class?

In my day it was called "taking attendance", took 30 seconds and entailed a piece of paper and a pencil.

This is just another chunk of money being taken away from actually TEACHING children.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #77)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:35 PM

115. Well, I didn't see the price, but...

The wired article cites:

"Like most state-financed schools, the district’s budget is tied to average daily attendance. If a student is not in his seat during morning roll call, the district doesn’t receive daily funding for that pupil because the school has no way of knowing for sure if the student is there."

===

I know that a school is the custodian of minor children and could be open for a lawsuit if that kid skips out.

Don't worry. The town will make up the funds when the kids loe their tag. They'll charge them $10 to replace it, when the unit cost for an RFID tag and lanyard is about $1.50.

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #115)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:45 AM

183. Ah, that explains the "revenue"

mentioned in another post.

And how does the RFID tag get him into his seat? If he is skipping school, he is skipping school. He is either in his seat when roll is called or he isn't.

Pencil and paper records that much cheaper than all this hardware.

They started this shit in businesses, now they are doing it in schools. Do you seriously think it will stop there?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #77)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:46 PM

117. This is a pilot program to see if it is cost effective...

...if they can improve attendance records, they may get more money from the state. Their interest is increasing school revenues. My bet is that if they don't bring in a lot more than it costs, out it goes.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #117)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 11:37 AM

182. "Their interest is increasing school revenues. "

Huh?

Public schools are profit-making enterprises now?

Also, it has been my experience that no matter even when systems like this cost more than the method they replace, they are kept. Too many people are making money on the "new system" and the cash is spread to the people who will keep it in place.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #182)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 04:41 PM

186. The school gets funding from the state...

...the state funding is proportional to attendance. The state demands attendance to be accounted for and they pay only to the degree that attendance can be certified. If the district improves attendance accounting they may be able to get more state funding.

RE: Costly systems are kept: Maybe, maybe not. This is a pilot to see if the system is cost effective. The school board is responsible for evaluating the results of the study. The citizens are responsible for evaluating the effectiveness of the school board. Hopefully that keeps everybody honest and the right decision is made.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #186)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 05:13 PM

190. Again, the question is

whether the student is present or not.

"Bueller?"

"Here, sir!"

Tick mark bedside name.

I don't see that an RFID chip somehow compels our student to be in his seat and not skip school.

Bueller is either there, or he isn't. One system cost a fortune to determine this, the other system costs pennies.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #190)

Fri Jan 11, 2013, 09:11 PM

194. OK. But that just isn't a civil rights issue. NT

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Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #71)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:42 PM

116. The data on the RFID is a simple arbitrary serial number...

...that is associated with the student in the school's database. There is no data that has any meaning or significance outside the context of the database.

(From the school's web site.)

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:19 PM

2. Easy solution. Home school. n/t

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Response to Tempest (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:22 PM

5. easier solution: don't tag kids like cattle.

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Response to TeamPooka (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:34 PM

8. Questions for you

Do you think they would have helped track down all the students during the Sandy Hook tragedy?

Second question: Do you think parents at the school would support it now?

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Response to Tempest (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:04 PM

14. You first. nt

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Response to Javaman (Reply #14)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:15 PM

19. That's a cop-out. Adios.

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Response to Tempest (Reply #19)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:31 AM

64. LOLOL

You're so funny!

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Response to Tempest (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:24 PM

21. NO. NO.

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Response to Tempest (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:02 AM

31. Ben Franklin would not approve. nm

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Response to Tempest (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:53 AM

55. The next accessory for the AR-14 will be an RFID tracker. Feel safer now?

This is just more Big Brother technology. It doesn't make anyone more secure, it just makes the job of monitoring people easier.

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Response to Tempest (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:41 AM

72. What???

Care to put that first question into some context? What does this have to do with what happened at Sandy Hook?

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Response to Tempest (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:56 AM

79. How would have tracking students

have helped?

The gunman had no ID, so knowing where the children were would help how? Any orders to move children from spot A to B ran the risk of providing the shooter with more targets. Also, no one knew how many shooters their were. At Columbine, there were two. So while you might be sure you saw a guy with a gun walk past your door, your instructions to folk in the next building to leave, might put them in the path of the next shooter.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #79)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:03 PM

93. Because it took a while to find all the students, as some had run away.

RFID tags might have shortened that search.

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Response to Tempest (Reply #8)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:26 PM

139. "think of the children" is always a piss-poor excuse.

Always. That is because those who use it don't even consider anything close to a long-term, general consequence. It's an excuse grounded in fear, and such always pointedly lacks anything like reasoned thought.

I won't even dignify that mentality with the word "reason", because people who support their argument with "think of the children" have lost any argument with me by default.

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Response to TeamPooka (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:46 PM

27. +1 million

 

Can't believe anyone would support tracking devices on students.

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Response to TeamPooka (Reply #5)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:07 AM

36. What's wrong with a student id card? And what's wrong with making easy to read? NT

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:21 PM

3. After all the Jones and Teabagger ravings, TX has more surveillance than ever...

Last edited Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Both approved of forced transvaginal ultrasounds for women. What do they expect?


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Response to freshwest (Reply #3)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:49 PM

28. They do give a damn

 

Texas has a neo-con governor, and that's who's in power over there. The Ron Paul/Alex Jones crowd hates Perry, and tried to oust him with Deborah Medina. Transvaginal ultrasounds for women were strongly opposed by Libertarians.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:22 PM

4. Time to require all judges to wear tracker RFID

so that the public can make sure they are at the Courthouse.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #4)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:22 PM

6. Can we RFID Congress?

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Response to TeamPooka (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:12 PM

17. Why bother?

Washington, golf courses, or home districts.

That is, unless you want to put scanners in airport bathrooms.

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Response to Tab (Reply #17)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:12 AM

81. Think Vitter.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #4)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:10 AM

37. I'm sure judges, as well as other court employees, have id cards...

... RFID or not, its just an id card. Big deal.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:23 PM

7. The family is represented by the Rutherford Institute...

If I remember correctly, they also represented Paula Jones at some point.

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Response to DonViejo (Reply #7)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:40 PM

9. How does that matter? I wouldn't allow a daughter or son or mine to wear one

and I wouldn't wear one either.

Whoever represented them was doing a favor...it would seem.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:51 PM

12. Statement of fact; nothing more, nothing less. eom

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Response to KoKo (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:11 PM

16. Why not?

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:42 PM

10. Could this be why we have a 2nd Amendment?

 

Some will bend over and do anything if the institutions order it.

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Response to Cynicus Emeritus (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 08:48 PM

11. No, that's why we have the FOURTH Amendment

are you suggesting the appropriate response is to shoot school officials or judges?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:15 AM

33. Nah, s/he's just concerned about the "slippery slope."

You know, the same one that leads from gay marriage to people marrying their dogs.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #11)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:02 PM

111. The Second Amendment has nothing to do with violence

 

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Response to Cynicus Emeritus (Reply #111)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 01:08 PM

113. So what is the utility of the Second Amendment in this case?

If you don't intend to use guns against the government? It has nothing to do with privacy or surveillance. Your justification in the linked posts depends on the threat of violence. As tyrannical as you may believe school teachers are when they gave you bad grades, the constitution doesn't allow you to threaten to kill them.


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Response to Cynicus Emeritus (Reply #111)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:23 PM

133. What then does it have to do with "bending over...?"

What then does it have to do with "bending over...?"

And please, take as much space as you need to write to allow us coherence.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #133)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:20 PM

144. It means we must bend over to the corporate elite

 

Ask them and they will tell you that they represent the true aspect of being an American. More for the rich and less for us as well as weakening that pesky US Constitution. AKA: More wealth for themselves and elimination of rights for the masses.

Bend over means acquiesce and submit to the master. You'll learn it. Those who are really behind making America disarmed are the corporate/media elite like Goldman and GE and others. They want more serfs and less citizens. What is best for them is not necessarily best for us. They gain power at our loss and naive foolish Americans seeking false security still see it as good for society.

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Response to Cynicus Emeritus (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:23 PM

20. nice signature line

but they already took the pensions and could give a fuck less if we shoot each other.

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Response to Cynicus Emeritus (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:36 AM

32. Ever heard of ALEC

and big corps and banksters are happy allies of the NRA.

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Response to Cynicus Emeritus (Reply #10)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:04 AM

34. You are going to shoot people dead...

...just because the school wants to know if a kid is in the building? IMHO, that's sick.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:01 PM

13. Let us hope she doesn't learn that it's okay to "cast away that which offends".

That seems to be the main lesson of suspension. Dissention is supposed to be protected First Amendment activity.

I hope she can find a school that accepts her, instead of one that commands her.

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Response to Trillo (Reply #13)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:12 AM

38. The school offered to remove the RFID. Its just an id card. Big deal. NT

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #38)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:33 AM

47. Suspensions are never a big deal to third parties. NT

edited to add, they can be a big deal to other students. "Make an example" so there's no more "dissent". It's reminiscent of union busting.

Don't you find it rather _ironic_ that she refused to wear a badge, so the school temporarily refused to allow her entrance?

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Response to Trillo (Reply #47)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:42 AM

49. What I meant by "not a big deal" was...

...its not a big deal to have to carry a student id while at school. That just ain't no big deal. The school offered to remove the RFID, so that shouldn't be a problem either.

If suspension is a big deal, why did she choose suspension over the simple, no big deal requirement to carry a student id.

One other thought: I'm not sure this should be characterized as a "suspension". I might be wrong, but she is just being required to transfer to another school. Is that a "suspension"?

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #49)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:53 AM

51. Sorry, I added to my post above, didn't see your reply.

If she is being required to be transferred, that's an expulsion, not a suspension. If she has friends at that school, it certainly can be traumatic, particularly given the circumstances of school contempt, and also if she tends toward introversion.

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Response to Trillo (Reply #51)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:54 AM

63. The original article when this first came out said

The school offered to remove the chip from her badge at her current school, but she wanted to wear her old badge. The school was making a reasonable accommodation for her.

You can read the ruling here: https://www.rutherford.org/files_images/general/01-08-2013_Hernandez_Ruling.pdf

She is attending a magnet school. Once she refused the badge without the chip - wanting to wear her old badge - is when the school district said that she'd have to return to her 'home school'.

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Response to Trillo (Reply #51)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:04 PM

118. Given that she thinks the RFID is the "mark of the beast" and...

...seems to think the school is in league with the devil and intent on persecuting her, my bet is that she has a variety of psychological problems. The school attempted to accommodate her by removing the RFID. Beyond that, I'm not sure what they can do other than ask her to attend a school that doesn't have the ids. I don't see why they should be held accountable for any mental suffering.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #118)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:36 PM

143. I read some of the pdf tammywammy left.

It seems this is more about Mr. Hernandez than his daughter, but that's just my impression. Mr. Hernandez is thinking on his own, except for a 2000-year old text, and his daughter is getting punished. It's too bad they didn't take a constitutional argument.

Nonetheless, that the school's final answer is "get out of dodge" so to say, that is also pretty much her argument, take your ID and put it in a dark place. I fail to see much difference. In the end, they're both on the same page in that regards.

I don't think there's anything more American than a Eff You attitude. It seems Ms. Hernandez has received the typical American educational training. She's definitely an American through and through. It's too bad she needs any more "education" past that point. I'd advocate that the White House or Congress should grant her her High School diploma, with the words, well done, you've learned your lessons well.

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Response to Trillo (Reply #143)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:26 PM

154. Start a whitehouse.org pettition to grant her the diploma...

...post it on WND, they seem to be all up in arms about this. (For that crew "up in arms" is not a metaphore.)

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:05 PM

15. Glad they didn't have those my senior year

It would have kept me from ditching second period study hall and going to dunkin donuts!

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Response to Canoe52 (Reply #15)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 05:20 AM

56. If they installed an RFID reader in the trees across the street from school

... then they'd have my name on the list of kids smoking.

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Response to Canoe52 (Reply #15)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 07:00 PM

193. And I'd have missed out on many deep dish pizza lunches

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:14 PM

18. This is a tough one.

I saw her interviewed a few months ago, and she just radiated junior-religious-wingnuttery. But I really hate the idea of RFID monitoring of students or anyone. I wish a different plaintiff with a less religious angle would challenge this.

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Response to Joe Shlabotnik (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:13 AM

39. Without the religious angle, on what grounds would you challenge it? NT

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:19 AM

42. I dunno

but its sad that RFID has to be fought on religious grounds as apposed to unreasonable-search grounds.

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Response to Joe Shlabotnik (Reply #42)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:29 AM

45. How is issuing a student id to be construed as a search? NT

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #45)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:39 AM

48. Simply because thier presence or absence is suddenly suspicious

without any examination. Its an unreasonable, unusual, and unjustifiable expectation.

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Response to Joe Shlabotnik (Reply #48)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:47 AM

50. I don't know about a kid's presence in school being suspicious...

...but in my day, being absent was DEFINITELY a reason for suspicion. And it required an examination to ascertain presence or absence, often with a follow up call to the parents. I just don't see how ascertaining school attendance is unreasonable or objectionable, or why anyone would have anything against students carrying student ids.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #50)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:00 AM

52. because the school has no real authority

My days were different perhaps, and maybe there was more legwork involved with ascertaining a students whereabouts (which seldom happened). BUT make no mistake: this all about commoditizing kids as cattle for tax dollars. It has nothing to do with educating our young ones, but rather using them as data entries to determine where pork can be spent, and civil liberties be slashed.

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Response to Joe Shlabotnik (Reply #52)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:10 PM

119. They definitely are interested in collecting tax dollars from the state...

...which is absolutely necessary to educating our young ones. No money, no education. It's that simple.

The state (and taxpayers) also has an interest in making sure its payments are being put to use as intended, and they are not paying for "ghost students". It provides a strong incentive for the school to make sure the kids actually show up and are in their seats.

I don't think anyone is interested in limiting civil liberties. Nor do I think this does. Kids don't have the right to privacy in school, they are there to learn and the school needs to keep watch over them. If this system doesn't help to do that (and bring in extra revenue for the school) it will go away.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:15 AM

84. the school will know where...

kids go to skip classes and have a smoke!!(gasp)

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Response to Joe Shlabotnik (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:36 PM

134. Fun to watch the reverse gymnastics.

It's tough when we faced with two things we really don't like and have to choose one.

I kinda thought this thread would show who hates what more-- religion or Orwellian visions in our stocking.

Fun to watch the reverse mental gymnastics and upside down rationalizations.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 09:44 PM

22. Big Brother

or is it 1984??

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:45 PM

108. Could move to employers saying take or leave it too if you take it off at lunch no pay

They could say it is really a lunch break in a continous work day

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Response to Angry Dragon (Reply #22)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:52 PM

128. Neither

It's Skynet...

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:03 PM

23. The district said it would allow her to continue attending school with the battery and chip removed

The district said it would allow her to continue attending the magnet school with “the battery and chip removed.”

Not sure if the letter mentioned in the article link (below) actually said they would have to stop criticizing the program & support it, but I understand they felt it as wrong so continued their fight against the program. Since it was a school of choice (magnet school) vs. standard public school, my guess is they had less choice in opting-out than a student in standard curriculum as I believe participation in the magnet school was voluntary.

Would love to see if this occurs at a public school and what the outcome would be. My guess is a very different outcome.




ref:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/11/student-suspension/

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:17 PM

24. A card around the neck? Whoa. I'd object, too. How horrible. What's the purpose?

Never mind. The purpose doesn't matter. We're talking about hanging cards, and trackers, around a person's neck, like a collar with a microchip.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #24)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:16 AM

40. Everybody where I work has an id card, and we wear them so others can see them...

...what's the big deal? Even at a burger joint the casher has a pin that says "hi, my name is...".

This is a big brew-ha-ha about nothing.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:17 AM

69. School is not work

They should not be compared to each other and should be kept as dissimilar and separate as possible.

I too have worn a id badge for work but don't think kids should be forced to wear them around their necks all the time. Teachers should know their students well enough to realize they are absent or if an individual is not theirs. If they need an ID for this then there is a massive problem within the institution. People need to get to know their kids while giving them room to breath, not be as coldly domineering as possible while regimenting them. I'm not a fan of school uniforms for the same reason.

That said, this student's reason is nuts.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #69)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:24 AM

85. Student id cards are ubiquitous in schools. With thousands of kids in each school...

... it is a lot easier to say that teachers "should" know who is and is not in the school than it is to actually do so.

According to the school district's web site, the two pilot schools have a combined enrollment of 4,200 students. That would be about 2,000 kids per school. I would say trying to keep track of 2,000 kids who are constantly moving around from activity to activity during the day is a significant problem and expecting teachers to do it by memory is not reasonable.

Here are the goals of the program from the school web site:

Increase student safety and security. Our students' parents expect that we always know where their children are in our schools.

Increase attendance. Through more efficient attendance management, schools can generate additional revenues by identifying students who are not in their seats during roll call but who are in the school and locate them. (Increased attendance = increased state revenues)

Provide multi-purpose "Smart" Student ID card. The Student ID will provide access to the library and cafeteria, serve as a photo ID, and allow for the purchase of tickets to schools' extracurricular activities. Other uses will be rolled out during the pilot program.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #85)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:42 AM

88. Then you are misinformed

"I would say trying to keep track of 2,000 kids who are constantly moving around from activity to activity during the day is a significant problem and expecting teachers to do it by memory is not reasonable."

My high school had 3,000. If you entered a class you didn't belong in, your teacher knew because they knew who their students were. If you were absent, it was noted and followed up on by either a councilor or the teacher themselves.

I don't know, maybe teachers are just on autopilot these days? It's not good either way. I would be interested in the school's track record if this indeed something they can't get a handle on.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #88)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:08 PM

96. I'm pretty sure that teachers at this school...

...are just like teachers at any other school and know their student's just as well as they do elsewhere.

Where I went to school, we started each class with a roll call and the teacher filled in an attendance report. If a student wasn't in class at that time, the teacher had no idea if the kid was out for the day or just skipping one class. All of the attendance reports had to be reconciled at the end of the day to determine who was and who wasn't there and why.

I know they did the reconciliation because I skipped half a day once and the next day I was called into the office.

If this system helps teachers deal with all this administrative BS and gives them more time to focus on teaching, I'm for it.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #96)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:19 PM

102. That is a completely different argument then where we began

I thought we were talking about security. Now your are talking about efficiency. There really isn't any evidence that it is more efficient either. In fact, I could see it being extremely prone to error and abuse. What stops a kid from carrying their friends card into class, now that teachers don't even have to look at their students and pay attention to who is there?


Edit - I just did a double take

"I would say trying to keep track of 2,000 kids who are constantly moving around from activity to activity during the day is a significant problem and expecting teachers to do it by memory is not reasonable."

How do you reconcile this statement with your most recent response? Almost slid by me. Do you at least concede that it is not unreasonable for teachers to know who their students are?

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #102)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:31 PM

105. You reminded me of what it was like to be in high school, and I visited...

...the schools web site.

I think there are multiple reasons for a system like this. Security and access control are good reasons. Taking administrative burdens off of teachers and lowering administrative costs are good reasons. But from the school's web site, it seems that the principle reason is to increase the school's revenue from the state.

They hope it will improve attendance records when a kid is not in class at the time of the roll call but actually is in the school building. I'm not sure of the mechanics, but if they can locate the kid and count his presence, they get more revenue from the state.

The whole point of the pilot is to see if the increased accuracy of attendance records increases revenue and makes the system cost effective. Cost effective meaning getting much more money for the school than the system costs.

My bet is that if they get more money than it costs, it stays. If they don't, it goes.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:54 AM

78. They aren't used to track every micro second of the worker's time at work.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #78)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:25 AM

82. And why would you think that is done at this school? No where does it say...

...that this is done. It isn't done where I work, why would it be done at this school? That would be costly and would not serve any purpose.

The RFID is just a way to get the kids through the entrance way quicker and more efficiently. Big deal.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #82)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:44 AM

89. Read the article again.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #89)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:00 PM

92. Instead, I went to the school's web site...

Here is what the school web site says the uses / goals of the system are:

* Increase student safety and security. Our students' parents expect that we always know where their children are in our schools.

* Increase attendance. Through more efficient attendance management, schools can generate additional revenues by identifying students who are not in their seats during roll call but who are in the school and locate them. (Increased attendance = increased state revenues)

* Provide multi-purpose "Smart" Student ID card. The Student ID will provide access to the library and cafeteria, serve as a photo ID, and allow for the purchase of tickets to schools' extracurricular activities. Other uses will be rolled out during the pilot program.

Taking attendance at the start of each class is a traditional and expected practice in HS. Making such administrative tasks easier gives teachers more time to teach and costs the school less money.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #78)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:11 PM

147. If it tracks, it tracks. Employers who read e-mails also keep track of info from trackers. nt

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:10 PM

146. You don't see wealthy people with cards hanging around their necks, do you?

Or fashion models? Executives?

It messes up the outfit, and is a device for the Big Brother worker bees. The nobodies. The nobodies who must be tracked every minute, watched, clocked.

It's not right. I wouldn't wear one, unless I had to, in order to be gainfully employed. And I don't have to...there are other jobs.

There is nothing wrong with dignity.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #146)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:21 PM

153. Actually, I see several wealthy people, every day or so, wearing them...

Here is Carlos Slim Helú, the world's wealthist person (beats Bill Gates by a few mill) wearing one. I don't think one should base one's dignity or pride on such a shallow, insubstantial thing.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #153)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:45 PM

157. You got me there...except I'm gonna guess he's at a special event

that requires the electronic card for easy ingress and egress to different areas. If that's what that is.

I will also guess it's good for business, since he's in the telecom business, and all that electronic business stuff is connected.

Just a guess. I do have the common sense to know that the world' richest man does not, and does not need to, wear a card around his neck in his daily life so others can track him.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #157)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:53 PM

158. A few thoughts...

My guess is that when he does and does not wear a badge is contextual and based on the what the activity and security requirements are.

At home? No. And I don't either.

At work? If I had to guess, I would say yes, but of course, I don't know. I know where I work, everyone wears their badge, even the top execs. And the security guards would stop them if they didn't.

I looked at the web site for the school for more information about this. Apparently, the purpose of the system is to make sure their attendance records are complete so they can get more funding from the state. Before this system was in place, if a student was anywhere other than home room when they take attendance at the beginning of the day the school couldn't claim the attendance for state funding because they could not verify the attendance. With the new system, if the kid walked in the front door and was id'ed, or registers anywhere in the building, he gets counted and the school gets a credit with the state. So some "tracking" capability is necessary, since it is an attendance system, not an access control system.

Some news sites say the school (or the district, I don't know which) thinks they can get two million more state dollars per year. This is a pilot program at two schools to see if it will actually perform.

Personally, I think its important for the district to get this money.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #158)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:06 AM

161. There's always a stated "good reason" for restrictions on one's liberty.

If there weren't, people wouldn't go along with it.

There are good reasons for The Patriot Act, too.

I don't know where you work, but most people don't need to have their movements tracked. And I wouldn't agree to that, unless I were forced to. And I use the word "force" intentionally.

As for the school...so they tag the kids to get more money than they got last year. Interesting. It usually comes down to money, doesn't it? So they make a kid wear a tracking chip all day, so that his walk thru the door one time can be registered. I don't buy it. They're trying to catch kids who skip.

Skipping school occasionally is a tradition. I hate to think that the important rite of skipping school, and getting caught, will be missed by kids. How 'bout the teacher just be aware of who is supposed to be in his/her class?

I would object to any child of mine being microchipped that way. It's abhorrent. It's wrong.

If they want to chip someone, they should chip the teachers and make sure they're working a full day and not skipping out early. And making sure the principal doesn't leave to run a personal errand (and you know they do).

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #161)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:16 AM

164. I'd say, yes, there always should be a good reason...

...for restricting freedom.

I see several good reasons for this system, and I don't see any significant restriction on freedom. Knowing where a kid is in school is not a restriction of that kids freedom. And if they do know, the school can be less restrictive in that it doesn't lose money if the kid heads to the library in the morning and misses roll call.

Sorry, I don't share your concerns about this. I think its a good idea.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #146)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 12:32 AM

168. FYI, Another rich guy with an id around his neck...

Bill Gates, No. 2 world's rich guy:

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #146)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:54 PM

192. All employees where I work wear a badge.

That includes from the CEO down to the janitorial staff. Without a badge they cannot access parking lots let alone buildings. If you're not wearing a badge you will be stopped. If I left my badge at home I'd have to visit Security for a temporary one to use. All visitors wear badges, and that includes high ranking government officials.

The CEO made $23M last year as salary, so yes wealthy people wear badges at work too.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:25 PM

25. I would not have liked being tracked at all in school or work, but I can see the benefits of this.

Think of the time saving with attendence alone.

However, it could be so easy for a student to 'cheat' and have a fellow student carry their card around.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:55 AM

59. until that student doesn't show up in the right classroom at the right time

and the one carrying the card can't be in two places at one time.

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #59)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:00 AM

173. true but some high school students are pretty clever :)

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #173)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:49 AM

181. the day they can split themselves into two is one I'll be waiting for...

that is my litmus test for clever.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #25)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:15 PM

148. But sometimes a good end doesn't justify the means.

The Patriot Act spies on people without warrants, listens in on conversations, tracks people...all without a showing of the need to do that. The reason is justified, the cause is good, the results are probably good.

But...does a good end justify the means? There's just something wrong about tracking people electronically. Esp with cards hanging around their necks. Even if it's for a good reason.

There is always a good reason for encroachment of liberties.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #148)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 06:20 AM

174. international conversations, communications.

I do think it was a knee jerk reaction for the Gov. to cram in these laws just 10 days after 9-11.

That statrted a whole private industry of for profit businesses around those laws. Same for the anti-mexican laws, medical marijuana regulation systems, border patrol stuff and now a 'school security" and childrens education businesses.

Any business that can grab federal and state money to enjoy a huge profit from it will write and lobby hard for new laws.

Once a law is in place it is almost impossible to get rid of. The private bussinesses do not want that bonanza of state/federal money to ever stop.

Student ID cards have been around forever, many businesses, hospitals use security cards. People could make a fake card, fake student ID and walk into a place..test cheat for example. but with a chip in it, that is much harder.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:40 PM

26. I'm so happy I don't have to even care about

Myself or children going to school. Never had a kid, but I think children with baby teeth should have some kind of chip drilled into their tooth so they can be tracked. Baby teeth are lost through the years, so it wouldn't be forever.

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Response to Politicalboi (Reply #26)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:56 AM

60. well when you do have children

you can rethink the absurdity of what you suggest.

because it is absurd.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 10:56 PM

29. When we reach the point of RFID Trackers in schools, armed teachers, endless

surveillance and zero-tolerance rules/laws, I think we have failed as a society or damn close to it ...

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:16 AM

54. I honestly don't have a strong opinion either way concerning this issue...

but your comment is as summarily true as this subject deserves.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #29)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:50 PM

109. In the future what do you imagine a police state run school would be like?

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Response to lunasun (Reply #109)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:42 PM

125. Yep!!! n/t

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Response to lunasun (Reply #109)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:41 PM

135. Much like a Dickensian workhouse.

Much like a Dickensian workhouse.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Tue Jan 8, 2013, 11:37 PM

30. My main objection to it is the use of SSN in the implementation of the device.

Is it encrypted?

I have a strong objection to the tracking. Do they track the teachers and administrative staff?

They say the purpose is tied in with school funding. The problem is that they don't need to keep track of the students from start to finish. They could just as easily provide scanners that students could slide their card thru when they go to their first class or home class.

How much did it cost to implement this program?

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #30)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:27 AM

43. A couple of points...

My understanding of the RFID is that it transmits an arbitrary number that is specific to the RFID system. A data base in the school's computer would associate the arbitrary RFID to the SSN. So the RFID would not contain any information that would make any sense without access to the school's data base. Of course schools keep student's SSN in their data base regardless of whether then are using RFIDs, so this does not represent anything unique to this particular case.

Second, the RFID is probably read ONLY at the entrance when the kids enter. It would be expensive and would not serve any purpose to put tracking devices all over the school. In reality, this is no different from swiping a card to get in at the door.

Third, moving a bunch of rambunctious youngsters through a door all at the same time in the morning by having them swipe in would cause a huge traffic jam, and most of them would jump the line and NOT swipe in. This just gets them through the door faster and with fewer mistakes.

It ain't no big deal.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:43 AM

73. Why would there be a huge traffic jam for a school

and not for a workplace that requires employees to clock in? The workplace had 2700 hourly employees for 2 shifts. Hint hint the workplace had more than 1 scanner at two different entrances. I would consider placing the scanners differently then what was at the workplace.

By the way did you see the part where it says RFID chip monitors pupils’ movements on campus, from when they arrive until when they leave. Nothing about the student sliding the card through a scanner. It tracks each student each second they are in the school.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #73)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 11:55 AM

91. It would be a huge traffic jam because...

...students arrive in mass on buses all at once, and they are not organized and disciplined like adults are. They will just run in without sliding their card. It is much easier and less of a hassle to use RFID. What value does requiring physical contact between the card and the reader provide? It seems to me that it detracts from the ease of use of the system.

It tracks each student each second they are in the school: Taking attendance at the start of each class is a traditional and expected practice in HS. Making such administrative tasks easier gives teachers more time to teach and costs the school less money. Here is what the school web site says the uses / goals of the system are:

* Increase student safety and security. Our students' parents expect that we always know where their children are in our schools.

* Increase attendance. Through more efficient attendance management, schools can generate additional revenues by identifying students who are not in their seats during roll call but who are in the school and locate them. (Increased attendance = increased state revenues)

* Provide multi-purpose "Smart" Student ID card. The Student ID will provide access to the library and cafeteria, serve as a photo ID, and allow for the purchase of tickets to schools' extracurricular activities. Other uses will be rolled out during the pilot program.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #30)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:07 PM

95. It doesn't use actual SSNs

The reporting doesn't give details, but it says the ID number is associated with an SSN. It's problably something as simple as a database that contains both the ID number and the SSN for each student.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #30)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:32 PM

106. Schools do not use SSNs for student ID numbers anymore.

That practice was stopped a long time ago - back in the 1980s if memory serves.

The school funding has to do with attendance verification. If a student leaves school without permission during the school day this system provides a record of that. Simply recording the student presence in the morning in not enough. The school is responsible for knowing the student is in school the whole day.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:16 AM

41. Step by step, inch by inch, creeping stealthily into 1984.

Red light cameras, EDR's/GPS/cameras in your cars. Coming Soon: cameras and microphones installed in your TV's.

.
Operation Northwoods: The 9/11 You Never Knew

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Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:27 AM

44. Could be a lot of job creation out of that... I'd gladly apply to work at an RFID factory. nt

 

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Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:32 AM

46. My TV? I've got a camera and a microphone installed in my computer...

...it cost extra. Its a feature.

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Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:14 PM

100. It's already here...

XBOX 360 and Kinect

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Response to sickwidit (Reply #100)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:16 PM

132. And your laptop, your iPad, your cell phone... the list goes on. :)

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 03:07 AM

53. The Urban High School I went to had

some off-limit areas, truancy officers and a few problem students. No Dress Codes. No IDs. There was even a place about 100 yards from the main school building where Guys were Allowed to Smoke, yes smoke cigarettes during lunch and No Big Deal to carry a Pocket Knife. Never a stabbing and never a fire. What Happened?

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Response to LarryNM (Reply #53)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:49 AM

75. They have too many students in the schools.

Too many students mean they become more anonymous and easier to cause trouble.
Too many students mean teachers and administrators know fewer of the students.

The school I went to had 500 students in our class even that might had been too many. There shouldn't be more than 500 students in each class and not more than 1500 in the whole school.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #75)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:27 PM

121. I looked up on the school district's web site. They have...

... 4,200 students in the two schools that are participating in the RFID pilot - so that's on the order of 2,000 kids per school. The district as a whole has a student/teacher ratio of about 16 to 17.

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Response to reACTIONary (Reply #121)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:57 PM

145. So far you haven't understood anything I have posted.

Which leads me to doubt your sincerity.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #145)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:04 PM

151. Sorry about that. I'll have another look. (NT)

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Response to LarryNM (Reply #53)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:29 PM

122. They don't seem to have a security problem...

...from their web site it looks like they just want to collect more revenue from the state by improving their attendance accounting system.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:22 AM

57. Good!!

Just because you think a Bronze Age era book says something is no excuse to opt out of a sensible safety system.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:01 AM

61. is it really that much of a security feature

or rather a way to cut back on administrative staff and their attending costs who used to patrol the halls of the school and knew what kids did and didn't belong there? Since no one wants their taxes raised in order to fully and properly staff schools with adults, is this the way they get around doing that? That it's cheaper to hang a meat tag around a child's neck (at least they aren't inserting them under the skin on their foreheads or right hands, huh?) and point a tracking device at them than it is to hire 8 people to patrol the school grounds and document truancy?

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Response to SemperEadem (Reply #61)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 07:26 AM

62. Just Disable the Chip

 

Sound like a great time for civil disobedience.

How to disable a RFID tag: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-blockkill-RFID-chips/step4/How-to-kill-your-RFID-chip/

“The last (and most covert) method for destroying a RFID tag is to hit it with a hammer. Just pick up any ordinary hammer and give the chip a few swift hard whacks. This will destroy the chip, and leave no evidence that the tag has been tampered with. This method is suitable for destroying the tags in passports, because there will be no proof that you intentionally destroyed the chip.”

I can imagine this idea catching on with the students. If a large number of chips just stopped working, the school will have to scrap the program. At a minimum, it will turn a tracking ID in to just a regular student ID.


Macoy

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Response to Macoy51 (Reply #62)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:10 PM

97. Yes, because the students benefit greatly when they're marked absent for weeks.

Oh wait....

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #97)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 07:19 AM

176. While Turning in course Work

 

Kinda hard to mark the kid absent when they have a paper trail of home work, tests taken ect. Of course the school may lose funding if the child is marked absent, so there is that going for the idea as well. If the school doesn't respect the students, maybe they will respect getting hit in the wallet.


macoy


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Response to Macoy51 (Reply #176)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 09:13 AM

179. Because the teacher's written grade book is integrated with the RFID computer

Oh wait.....

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 08:53 AM

66. What do the gay kids wear

tags with pink triangles on them? Just tattoo a bar code on their foreheads and they will be ready for corporate life.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:00 AM

67. wrap it in tin foil in a stylish manner or find a stylish metal case to protect it with

wear the damn thing but render it useless.

i see a cottage industry here

come on students
be creative here

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 09:50 AM

76. Misleading because district agreed to allow her to wear an ID without the chip.

"She sued, a judge tentatively halted the suspension, but changed course Tuesday after concluding that the 15-year-old’s right of religion was not breached. That’s because the district eventually agreed to accommodate the girl and allow her to remove the RFID chip while still demanding that she wear the identification like the other students."

So she really was refusing to wear the ID card, not the chip.

Wearing an ID is presumably not against her religion, so there is no Constitutional issue involved, just stubbornness on the student's part.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #76)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:11 PM

98. Much ado about nothing.

I wonder if this family refuses to buy food packages with bar codes on them. I guess it's possible but very problematic.

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Response to randome (Reply #98)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:24 PM

104. Some of the "Rapturists" do think that bar codes are the mark of the Beast.

Even some who don't think barcodes are the mark of the beast do think they are "paving the way" for the mark of the beast. http://www.av1611.org/666/barcode.html

Maybe they cut the bar codes out of the packages as soon as they get them home, I don't know. I feel sorry for their kids.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #76)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:32 PM

123. +10 (NT)

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 12:57 PM

110. Money and danger involved

The Northside Independent School District is set to collect north of $2 million in state funding to revise its poor attendance records; the RFID program will cost only about a quarter of that amount, with another $136,000 in annual maintenance costs.

But that money will likely not offset damages from unintended privacy violations on the back end: Heather Fazio, of Texans for Accountable Government,filed a Freedom of Information Act request regarding the program, for which she paid a $30 filing fee, and received the names and addresses of every student in the district.

Wth aRFID reader, you could track a child no matter who you are

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Response to lunasun (Reply #110)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:37 PM

124. The names and addresses don't help RFID tracking...

...unless the RFID serial number was included? Did they give her that?

In my state, FOIA could not be used for this purpose. It would be refused. Sounds like they need to revise their FOIA.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:57 PM

129. My sons went in the microwave.

The visible ID part still works, but the RFID doesn't.

I've actually done it to a few of them. The school threatened to make me pay for any more replacements, but I just reminded them that there's no way the government can legally place a tracking device inside my home. I told them that, if they wanted my son to wear one, they'd need to have it available for him to pick up in the office before school, and drop off at the office after school. Their policy requires that students wear them as they're entering campus, but that's a de facto requirement that they bring it into my home, and the school lacks any authority to mandate that my son bring a government tracking device onto my personal property without a warrant.

They never did get back to me, and he's still wearing the nuked one.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #129)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 04:28 PM

136. Yes, destroying the RFID chip is a simple solution, and works well.

If enough people push back, the scheme fails.

ID cards actually make it easier to get past security because people with false or stolen identifications don't face the same scrutiny they would in a place without these identification schemes.

School staff is less likely to ask "hey, who are you?" to a kid who is wearing an identification card that looks right.

If teachers and staff rely on these high tech systems to keep roll and track kids then their ability to see when a kid is out of place is much reduced.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #129)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 06:11 PM

141. Far better reaction than all the ho-humming elsewhere in this thread. (nt)

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 02:58 PM

130. By introducint RFID tags to school children the system is

indoctrinating them to the process. How long would it be before tags are introduced to to population as a whole? I don't buy the religious grounds argument but would look upon it as an infringement on personal liberty.

As a side note, what is to keep some student from giving a friend his/her badge and letting the friend carry it around for them. Also, depending upon where on the badge is the chip (bar code reader) I wonder if it would be possible to take a saw and hack that portion of the badge off. Or, what if the parents took her badge into another business and have the business manufacture a similar badge without the chip.

In the town that I grew up in, all 5th graders were finger printed at school (this was long before the current concerns about child disappearances). Of course the kids thought that it was a lark. This was not done to provide parents with a set of fingerprints should their child ever disappeared, they were kept by the police. Looking back on it, it was an infringement on the rights of the children as the town was building a database of fingerprints of people who had never committed a crime.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Wed Jan 9, 2013, 10:28 PM

156. This is not good

And leads me to believe we really are living in a police state.

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Response to IDemo (Original post)

Thu Jan 10, 2013, 10:25 AM

180. but just think....

...of all the advertising space on the back of the card!





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