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Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:44 PM

Anger as Hungary far-right leader demands lists of Jews

Source: Reuters

A Hungarian far-right politician urged the government to draw up lists of Jews who pose a "national security risk", stirring outrage among Jewish leaders who saw echoes of fascist policies that led to the Holocaust.

Marton Gyongyosi, a leader of Hungary's third-strongest political party Jobbik, said the list was necessary because of heightened tensions following the brief conflict in Gaza and should include members of parliament.

Opponents have condemned frequent anti-Semitic slurs and tough rhetoric against the Roma minority by Gyongyosi's party as populist point scoring ahead of elections in 2014.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/27/us-hungary-antisemitism-idUSBRE8AQ0L920121127



These people have actual influence in Hungary, they're not just some shouting fringe minority. Terrifying.

84 replies, 11296 views

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Reply Anger as Hungary far-right leader demands lists of Jews (Original post)
ButterflyBlood Nov 2012 OP
BainsBane Nov 2012 #1
kelliekat44 Nov 2012 #65
cliffordu Nov 2012 #2
Beacool Nov 2012 #3
struggle4progress Nov 2012 #4
Ash_F Nov 2012 #5
Orrex Nov 2012 #6
elbloggoZY27 Nov 2012 #7
liberalhistorian Nov 2012 #15
OnlinePoker Nov 2012 #8
The Wizard Nov 2012 #9
harmonicon Nov 2012 #10
iemitsu Nov 2012 #11
Tansy_Gold Nov 2012 #51
iemitsu Nov 2012 #59
Tansy_Gold Nov 2012 #60
iemitsu Nov 2012 #61
JustAnotherGen Dec 2012 #71
iemitsu Dec 2012 #73
David Zephyr Nov 2012 #12
Behind the Aegis Nov 2012 #13
Posteritatis Nov 2012 #31
lunatica Nov 2012 #36
Posteritatis Nov 2012 #44
Bohunk68 Nov 2012 #35
lunatica Nov 2012 #38
Xithras Nov 2012 #54
NickP Nov 2012 #14
hrmjustin Nov 2012 #16
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #17
Ken Burch Nov 2012 #18
Old Union Guy Dec 2012 #76
David__77 Nov 2012 #19
pampango Nov 2012 #25
leftlibdem420 Nov 2012 #20
cali Nov 2012 #26
iandhr Nov 2012 #21
ahostett Nov 2012 #22
sackabanana Nov 2012 #23
JDPriestly Nov 2012 #24
Marrah_G Nov 2012 #40
booley Nov 2012 #49
peacebird Dec 2012 #77
Carolina Nov 2012 #50
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #67
Carolina Dec 2012 #70
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #72
booley Dec 2012 #78
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #79
Carolina Dec 2012 #81
Carolina Dec 2012 #82
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #83
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #75
LeftishBrit Nov 2012 #56
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #66
democrattotheend Dec 2012 #74
loli phabay Nov 2012 #27
King_David Nov 2012 #64
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #80
MFM008 Nov 2012 #28
Skittles Nov 2012 #29
Posteritatis Nov 2012 #30
2on2u Nov 2012 #32
Nictuku Nov 2012 #33
Behind the Aegis Nov 2012 #34
Bohunk68 Nov 2012 #37
cali Nov 2012 #42
Bohunk68 Nov 2012 #45
David Zephyr Nov 2012 #55
cali Nov 2012 #41
AngryAmish Nov 2012 #39
UnrepentantLiberal Nov 2012 #46
AngryAmish Nov 2012 #47
LeftishBrit Nov 2012 #57
AngryAmish Nov 2012 #62
R. Daneel Olivaw Nov 2012 #43
booley Nov 2012 #48
iemitsu Dec 2012 #69
barnabas63 Nov 2012 #52
struggle4progress Nov 2012 #53
LeftishBrit Nov 2012 #58
Odin2005 Nov 2012 #63
Behind the Aegis Dec 2012 #68
sakabatou Dec 2012 #84

Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:45 PM

1. OMG

This is horrifying.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #1)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 06:30 PM

65. When is the next election and how soon can this nut be voted out? nt

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 10:49 PM

2. Gee, a quart of gasoline and a

road flare is a reasonable response.

Fuck 'em. Life is too short,

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:05 PM

3. Let me check the calendar.

Nope, it's not 1936.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:07 PM

4. shit

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:08 PM

5. What the hell?

Marton Gyongyosi...time to look him up.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:09 PM

6. Are you fucking kidding me?

There simply are not enough faces or palms in this world.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:18 PM

7. Intolerance

 

Amazing in 2012 that these attitudes of stupidity still exist but they do.

The best thing is that we know who the intolerant are.




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Response to elbloggoZY27 (Reply #7)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:35 AM

15. They exist in every generation in every nation.

And they must be constantly fought, it really is never-ending. As Jefferson said, true freedom requires lasting vigilance. It's one major reason why history really does repeat itself.

You'd think these inhuman motherfuckers would have had enough of Jewish and Roma blood by now (the Roma, or "gypsies" as they are often erroneously referred to, were also a targeted group who suffered persecution and death at the hands of the Nazis).

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:19 PM

8. Maybe it's time...

...to draw up lists of far-right politicians who pose a security risk to all humanity. Fuck, I hate these people.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:23 PM

9. Remember when Nixon

ordered the names of all the Jews in the Department of Labor after a bad jobs report was released.
They said it couldn't happen here.

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Response to The Wizard (Reply #9)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:39 PM

10. Yep... you gotta watch out for the Jews.

Keeping a list is a good way to avoid mistakes.

Last year, my Dad's dentist said to him, "happy Chanukah." My dad is not Jewish. I'm sure it was just that sort of embarrassment that Nixon wanted to avoid.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Nov 27, 2012, 11:45 PM

11. It sounds so shocking yet, I was reminded of

the lists of Ethnic Americans, whose names were complied in order to deny them equal rights as citizens on election day.
I'm not trying to equate Jim Crow with the Holocaust but our own right wingers are experts at instilling fear in minority populations by publicly identifying them as the enemy.
I wish the attitude of Marton Gyongyosi was confined to Hungary.

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Response to iemitsu (Reply #11)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:37 PM

51. You wish the attitude of Marton Gyongyosi was confined to Hungary?

I wish the attitude of Marton Gyongyosi was confined to a history book.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #51)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:04 PM

59. Your wish is better than mine.

And I'm ashamed that I didn't consider that before wasting a wish.

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Response to iemitsu (Reply #59)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:07 PM

60. Learning has taken place

And that's a good thing.

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Response to Tansy_Gold (Reply #60)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 09:08 PM

61. And I am grateful.

Thank you.

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Response to iemitsu (Reply #11)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:24 AM

71. Jim Crow

You are correct - it can't be equated. But thank you for acknowledging that it is in the same vein. How could we ignore the holocaust? Well - our faces were not exactly clean - and our racial laws went on until 1967. Two decades after we saw what abject racism and hatred could lead to.

And now - it continues in Hungary. And it continued in Rwanda, Bosnia, Sudan, northern Iraq ...Genocide is possible.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #71)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 01:30 PM

73. No, our faces aren't clean in the context of our own history

or in the context of global affairs.
The "divide and conquer" strategies employed by those, who harvest the fruits of our labor, promote hatred and mistrust of our fellows in order to shield themselves from our wrath. We, to our eternal shame, have embraced the notion that those weaker than us are the root cause of our problems. We fight each other over increasingly scarce scraps, preferring to take from those, traditional or convenient targets, rather than confronting those who have robbed us of the wealth we produce.
The only comfort one might take, from the story out of Hungary, is that the voice of hatred only becomes audible when it feels threatened. Elites, who normally want harmony among those who produce the wealth they enjoy, will encourage us to fight each other when they fear we might point our pitchforks at them.
The uber-folk are afraid and that is good.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:13 AM

12. What a disturbing article. Europe in 2012.

This really set me back tonight to read this. Disturbing on every level.

Are we making any progress in this world at all?

How can this sick hateful shit still be going on at that level in Europe?

Shame!!!!

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:16 AM

13. The sad thing is such a list likely already exists.

Sometimes, I think they say and do things like this as a way to test the water and see what the temperature is. It also attracts outliers.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 06:19 AM

31. They're probably compiling one; they try to screen their members via genetics tests. (nt)

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Response to Posteritatis (Reply #31)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 07:22 AM

36. You're assuming there's a genetic difference between Jews and the rest of humanity

I realize that at least some Jews consider themselves a different race, and I even had a conversation about that with one of our Graduate students who is a Jew when he was filling out the ethnicity page in the hiring paperwork, but I doubt that it shows up genetically as a singularity.


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Response to lunatica (Reply #36)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 05:32 PM

44. I'm not, the idiots in Jobbik are. (nt)

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #13)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 07:14 AM

35. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I'm on an Hungarian-American email list (although I haven't seen much lately) and that list had been reporting on Jobbik for the last couple years. I have been working on my genealogy for a couple of decades now and had long suspected that my namesake Hungarian ancestor was probably Jewish because of the last name (Tobias). His wife was native Hungarian and hence, the children, according to Jewish tradition, were raised in the faith of the mother. One day, I saw a posting on Ancestry.com about Central European Jewish Ancestry lists. When I went to it, there was a census taken in 1848 in Austria-Hungary that listed ONLY Jews. Why? Seems it was the Jews who had led the 1848 Revolution. On that list, I found many with the last name, Tobias. Had never found any in baptismal records. So, there was my answer. Yep, great-grandpa Tobias was Jewish. When I told the rest of that side of the family about my findings, OHHHHHHHH the shrieking!!!! And, the denial!!!!! I am now persona non grata. But, it does speak to a heavy anti-semitism that I have noted amongst Hungarians. You will note that a lot of Hungarian-Americans are Jewish. From 1880-1920, according to a study I read, 72% of all Hungarian emigrants returned to Hungary. They had left because the family farms had gotten so small that a family could not be raised. By sleeping in shifts in beds and eating the cheapest food, they were able to save up money and go back to Hungary and buy a larger farm to support their families. I suspect it was the non-Jewish Hungarians that went back.

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #35)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 07:26 AM

38. That's a fascinating story

Thanks for including it!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #13)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:46 PM

54. A list like this is trivially easy to make nowadays.

I didn't think about it until a co-worker pointed it out a couple of years ago. It took years for Hitler's henchmen to process millions of data cards and search birth records to build a list of Jews in Germany for extermination. Today, that same data could be compiled in hours.

Birth and death records are being rapidly digitized by most governments to reduce paperwork management (and all newer ones in most western countries are now digitized by default), and census data has both personally identifying information and religious affiliation. It would be trivial for a government to simply query out all users from past censuses to list those self-identifying as Jewish, and then run THAT list through birth and death databases to identify all of their relatives. Depending on the quality of the databases, we're potentially only talking about a few HOURS worth of work.

Computerization is great, but the march of technology has also made life much easier on those who would use it for evil.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:34 AM

14. Far Right political parties on the rise....

It's quite disturbing that Far-Right parties are beginning to rise and actually gain power, such as in Greece with the Golden Dawn.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:43 AM

16. Where did they get this nut? This is dangerous and could cost Hungary tourists. get rid of him.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:43 AM

17. Never go away, do they?

It's why the fight against hate must NEVER stop...because the haters and the harmers never do.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:45 AM

18. For anybody considering a trip to Hungary, here's the Jobbik logo...

When you see this on a building or poster or button in Hungary, you are looking at the symbol of hatred, rage, and the urge to slaughter "The Other" (even when that "other" has lived in the same land as you for a thousand years or more).



(It also reminds me of the faux-swastika symbol that Chaplin used for his mythical country of "Ostrich" in The Great Dictator...
a symbol that was described by the film's narrator as "the sign of the Double Cross")

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:53 PM

76. FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik

...

On the eve of the 2009 elections to the European parliament, a comment was posted on an unofficial and unverified Hungarian political internet forum, allegedly in the name of Prof. Krisztina Morvai, who then headed the party’s electoral list. Addressing their remarks to Hungarian Jews the comment poster stated that they “would be glad if the so-called proud Hungarian Jews went back to playing with their tiny circumcised dicks instead of vilifying me.” News of this comment, which has been roundly condemned, spread rapidly around the world and eventually even featured in an article by The Economist. Morvai’s critics have pointed to her refusal to even discuss the issue, let alone deny it; implying that this is sufficient to unquestioningly ascribe authorship of the remarks to her.

Her supporters however, claim that though she certainly has a record of being critical of the state of Israel given a sympathy for the Palestinian cause she developed while working as an international human rights lawyer, the idea of Morvai being an anti-Semite is "simply ridiculous," given that at the time of her alleged remarks she was married to a Hungarian of Jewish origin, with whom she has three children, but from whom she is now separated.

In a newsletter published by a group calling itself The trade union of Hungarian police officers prepared for action, the following was allegedly printed: "Given our current situation, anti-Semitism is not just our right, but it is the duty of every Hungarian homeland lover, and we must prepare for armed battle against the Jews." The editor of the union, Judit Szima, is a Jobbik candidate in the upcoming election for the European Union parliament. Haaretz alleged Szima "didn't see anything wrong with the content of the article."

During spring 2012, Jobbik representative in Hungarian parliament Zsolt Baráth caused an outrage by commemorating 1882 blood libel against the Jews in Parliament. The Tiszaeszlár blood libel, found latter to be unrelated to Jews, was known as first major anti-Jewish event in modern Hungary, predating the Holocaust.

In November 2012 Márton Gyöngyösi, a leader of Jobbik, advised the government to draw up lists of Jews who pose a "national security risk". As Al Jazeera reported, this led to "international condemnation of Nazi-style policies and a protest outside the legislature in Budapest

...

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:19 AM

19. First and foremost, Jobbik is an anti-communist, anti-secularist party.

Based on such a terrible foundation, it's unsurprising that it is racist and anti-Semitic as well.

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Response to David__77 (Reply #19)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 04:09 AM

25. True. It is also ethno-nationalist, right-wing populist and anti-globalization.

Jobbik has been denoted by scholars, different press outlets and its political opponents as fascist, neo-fascist, anti-Semitic, anti-Roma, anti-European Union and homophobic. The party describes itself as "a principled, conservative and radically patriotic Christian party", whose "fundamental purpose" was the protection of "Hungarian values and interests." Measured according to its representation in the European Parliament and the National Assembly, it is Hungary's third largest party.

Jobbik rejects the common classification of the political spectrum in left and right. It prefers a distinction of political parties based on their stance towards globalisation. On this scheme, the party sees itself as patriotic.

Jobbik's ideology has been described as right-wing populism, whose strategy “relies on a combination of ethno-nationalism with anti-elitist populist rhetoric and a radical critique of existing political institutions.

Jobbik rejects the globalised capitalism, and the influence of foreign investors in Hungary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:22 AM

20. The far-right is old school in Eastern Europe...

 

There's still a lot of Islamophilic, anti-Semitic memes dominating the far-right east of the former Iron Curtain, whereas the far-right in the West is "Zionist" and anti-Islamic.

Unmentioned here is that while Jobbik is beating up on Jews, the mainstream cente-right party, Fidesz, is just as bad to Gypsies as the far-right is to Jews. (No surprise there: 'I got gypped' is still more socially acceptable than 'I got Jewed' for some reason.)

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Response to leftlibdem420 (Reply #20)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 04:12 AM

26. Actually, it is NOT unmentioned. It's right in the excerpt posted.

reading before commenting: always a good idea.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:30 AM

21. I don't know what outrages me more.

the fact that they want to make lists or that it doesn't shock me.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 01:45 AM

22. History

Number three on the list of things people are apparently not learning from...

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 02:31 AM

23. If he was American

 

If this guy was an American, he'd be fully qualified to be a card carrying member of the Republican party... but only a moderate Repubican. He's not bat shit far right crazy enough to qualify for membership into the Tea Party wing of the GOP

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 03:26 AM

24. When people on DU criticize Israel, they need to remember this.

The threat to Jewish people is very, very real in a big part of the world.

It has not been that long since our own civil rights fight. And we still have a long way to go before we can really say that all people in our country have equal rights.

Underneath the tolerant facade in parts of Europe, Africa and Asia (I don't know about South America), lies a lot of intolerance especially toward Jewish people. It's just a religion, so it is hard to understand, but I have seen the manifestations of it in the not so distant past.

Please remember this, folks. Please do not forget.

Armenians have also suffered terribly. As have a few other minorities in the world. All minorities are to be protected. Jewish people have suffered perhaps more and for many, many more centuries than any other minority as far as I can tell from the history I have read.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #24)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 09:56 AM

40. This is horrifying and we can never let it happen again

But it doesn't excuse the bad things the government in Israel is doing and nor does it negate the fact that people SHOULD criticize those actions.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:28 PM

49. no one is doubting anti semitism exists

No one is saying jews don't deserve human rights.

The issue is we think Palestinians ALSO deserve human rights.

And right now Israel is far more capable of defending itself then Palestine is.

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Response to booley (Reply #49)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 07:05 PM

77. +1

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:33 PM

50. The criticism of Israel is about

its leaders and those complicit with them in what Israel has long been doing to the Palestinians, Lebanese and others in its immediate region. Israeli actions against Palestinians are analogous to Germany/Europe's against Jews in WWII. The victims have become the victimizers with the aid of US dollars and military support and the glaring habit of the US to castigate any Arab nation that fails to abide by UN sanctions while giving Israel a pass when it does likewise and even when it kills US citizens (e.g. Rachel Corie, Furkan Dogan).

Isreal's reactions to Hamas are frequently on the level of America's Shock & Awe against Iraq: overblown with considerable collateral damage that only seeds further hatred and kills the innocent.

Hamas like Al-Queda may be terrrorist but it is not a nation or state; and bombing an area to smithereens to get a cell or group has yet to yield any lasting coexistence, much less peace.

Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic; it's anti-injustice. And Israel is the bully of the Middle East

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Response to Carolina (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:26 AM

67. Israel is geographically encircled by hostile nations and

nations that could at an instant become hostile. That situation forces Israel to be vigilant to the slightest provocative act or challenge by a neighbor.

The rocks and missiles that the Palestinians throw across the border might simply give rise to diplomatic complaints were it not for Israel's extremely dangerous strategic situation.

Those who support the Palestinian unwillingness to agree to safe borders for Israel are actually encouraging the conflict and the killing.

Both parties need to negotiate peace in good faith. The US can insure that Israel will negotiate in good faith. But who will insure that Palestine does the same?

The right of return is merely an excuse to avoid good faith negotiations. It is absurd to think that Palestinians could return to properties located with Israel. Demanding the right of return is tantamount to demanding the right to destroy Israel entirely. The Israeli people have to defend their borders from Palestinians' rocks and other aggression including bombs and missiles. Obviously, Israel would not be secure if Palestinian loyalists, angry and aggressive were permitted to live within Israel.

So, the Palestinians are the ones who hold the power to change the situation, not the Israelis. In addition to the historical reasons for supporting a place that is safe for Jewish people who have been persecuted wherever they have lived for centuries, that is why I support the Israelis.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #67)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:16 AM

70. "the Palestinians are the ones who hold the power to change the situation"

Oh, puhleeze. The Palestinians are practically imprisoned and starving... not unlike the Jews during the holocaust who certainly had the power to change their situation

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Response to Carolina (Reply #70)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 12:12 PM

72. Your comparison does not work.

Israel is not NAZI Germany. The Palestinians are not in prison camps. They are not performing forced labor. They are not being gassed. They are free and elect their leadership.

Your analogy is simply false. It does not work. If Palestinians can elect their leaders, they can elect leaders who enter into agreements and then enforce those agreements against any Palestinians who do not want to comply with them.

Same can be said for the Israelis. They elect their leaders, and they, too, can elect leaders who enter into agreements and enforce the agreements against any Israelis who do not want to comply with them.

The Palestinians can negotiate over the borders. So can the Israelis.

The US will insure that Israel enforces its agreements. If Palestinians demonstrate that they can enforce any agreements they enter into, then there can be peace. Otherwise, there will be continued fighting.

The choice is up to the Palestinians.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #72)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 08:09 PM

78. right. it's more like apartheid South Africa or occupied east timor

where theoretically there were two groups of people who can "negotiate" with each other.

But not really

All the real power belonged to just one group which didn't see the need to negotiate when it could just take what it wanted. And then blame the people they are beating up for "not acting in good faith" and "fighting" (back)



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Response to booley (Reply #78)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 11:50 PM

79. Except that Israel has the US as its friend and can negotiate

from strength, and Palestine has enough friends to get voted partial recognition in the UN and therefore also can negotiate from strength.

Palestinians have found it useful to pretend to be the only victims in the situation. That is not true. Israel very much needs the cooperation of the Palestinians because Israel needs peace. Israel is a tiny country surrounded by enemies. It needs to negotiate with the Palestinians. The problem is that Palestine really does not want to present solutions to the situation that will bring security to Israel.

Palestinians need to put on their thinking caps. They actually have all the power in the situation. They just don't realize it. Or maybe they really like playing that they are the helpless victims. I don't know about that, but I do know that they hold the only cards that count. Because only they can make peace. Only they can bring demands to the table that are realistic and will guarantee Israel's security while giving Palestinians dignity and economic opportunity.

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Response to booley (Reply #78)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:05 AM

81. thank you

and that one group is NOT the Palestinians

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #72)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 07:14 AM

82. My analogy does hold

because as I said, the Palestinians are practically imprisoned and starving. Their homes are regularly bulldozed and innocents are killed. That is not unlike the Jewish holocaust and the Native American holocaust. After all, the land seized and occupied to create Israel was Palestine before 1948. And if you cannot see the similarity, then you are willfully blind.

"The choice is up to the Palestinians." Sheesh, as if they wield all the power and US endowed money and weapons.

Spare me this garbage. Israel with US aid has become a bully nation.

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Response to Carolina (Reply #82)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:31 PM

83. If vilification of Jews for sport were a thing of the past, I might

agree as I once did with you.

But here we go:

http://www.inquisitr.com/421880/thousands-attend-anti-nazi-rally-in-hungary-to-protest-far-right-partys-calls-for-screening-of-jews/

When I heard and hear (especially on DU) these kinds of anti-Jewish rants and the more I hear them the more I support Jews.

And not just Jewish people but also gays and lesbians and African-Americans and "illegals" and Gypsies and Armenians and all others who are vilified based on their minority status.

Palestinians do deserve a better fate, but they have to help to make it happen. Wanting to destroy Israel does not help them. The more they talk about destroying Israel, the more Israel determines to defend itself. To some that defense may seem aggressive, but what else is Israel to do?

Israelis and Palestinians should live side by side in peace. They should negotiate their borders. If Palestine came to the table in good faith, they would have secure borders and so would Israel.

"Settlements" are easily torn down. Water and other resources are easily piped in and shared. But as long as one side basks in the glory of martyrdom and points a finger at the other, there will be no security for either side and both sides will suffer.

The Palestinians hold the keys to negotiations in their hands. The Israelis will have to negotiate in good faith. Israel is too small and vulnerable to do otherwise.

Palestinians feel that they have a lot of support from the Arab and Middle Eastern world and that as long as they continue to stubbornly refuse to negotiate in good faith, they will eventually win. I don't think they have calculated the odds very well.

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Response to Carolina (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:23 PM

75. I am very critical of some of Israel's actions

But you cannot say with a straight face that Israeli actions against Palestinians are "analogous" to Germany's actions during World War II. Germans systematically rounded up Jews, used them as slave labor, and brought them to killing factories that were designed to slaughter Jews en masse.

I have a lot of criticism of Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, to the point where I cannot even discuss the subject with my religious Jewish friends because it would not end well. But to compare the Palestinians' conditions to a systematic slaughter of millions of Jews expressly on account of their religion/ethnicity is very offensive.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #24)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:27 PM

56. I fully agree when it comes to criticism of Israel's very existence

This sort of thing is just one example of why Jews need a safe haven.

But I think that Israel can be legitimately criticized for its actions as a state, just as the UK, USA, Hungary, etc. can.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:14 AM

66. Any state can be legitimately criticized for certain of its actions,

but there are a lot of people on DU who think that Palestinians are saints who do nothing wrong. They do not understand the complexity of the situation of Israel which is surrounded by hostile countries and which has to maintain the security and a sense of security for its population. Israel cannot afford to allow its citizens to feel that they are vulnerable to attack. That is because of their strategically sensitive and very lonely geographical position.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #24)

Sun Dec 2, 2012, 06:19 PM

74. Couldn't have said it better

There are obviously very legitimate criticisms of the Israeli government, but I feel that people on these forums often go too far and show at least indifference to the amount of persecution Jews have faced throughout our history.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 04:16 AM

27. my cousins in that region decamped last year. i would be looking to emigrate if i was jewish

 

Better to leave early than take the same fhances people took in the thirties.

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Response to loli phabay (Reply #27)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 04:00 PM

64. No Need in 2012,

Israel exists.

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Response to King_David (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 3, 2012, 12:11 AM

80. Thanks. That is why Israel has to be protected.

It is a haven, not necessarily a very easy place to live, but a haven, a last resort.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 04:17 AM

28. Didnt the world already try this

and find out it DID NOT WORK.??!! They just KEEP trying to put some group of people on a LIST?? No LISTS. Get the hell off our planet.

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Response to MFM008 (Reply #28)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 05:39 AM

29. how about a list of dangerous rightwing nutjobs

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 06:18 AM

30. A previous leader of that party was getting members gene-tested for "Jewish ancestry," too

They aren't just echoing fascist policies, they're actively trying to implement them.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 06:34 AM

32. He probably believes the earth is 50 years old. n/t

 

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 06:54 AM

33. Is a 'List of Muslims' any less offending? (n/t)

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Response to Nictuku (Reply #33)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 06:58 AM

34. Where was that in the article?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #34)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 07:25 AM

37. didn't read the article (on dialup and it takes forever and a day)

and I will do a baaaad thing and assume. What I read on the HA list about Jobbik has it that Jobbik is anti-Roma, anti-Jewish, anti-GLBT, and anti-Muslim. They are basically against anyone who cannot trace their ancestry to Attila and his bunch. Note on the symbol for Jobbik that it shows a Double-Cross over the Star and Crescent. Not sure why, but I can think of a couple of reasons.

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #37)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 10:19 AM

42. and you would be wrong. he is not, according to the article, anti-Muslim

to the contrary, the article depicts him as pro-Muslim. His reference to Gaza in the part posted is a clue.

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Response to cali (Reply #42)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 05:39 PM

45. Not the first time I've been in error.

I am always ready to be corrected. As I noted in my post, I'm on dialup and as a result often do not go to the links because of the time involved. That's just the facts. I can easily see how they would be pro-Muslim, after all, the enemy of my enemy, etc.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #34)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 04:22 PM

55. Exactly. And thank you!

I came back to this thread and am sadly not surpised to see that this story, rather than provoking outrage and sympathy, turned in to an opportunity for some to attack Jews and Israel.

I greatly admire you, Behind the Aegis, but you already know that.

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Response to Nictuku (Reply #33)


Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 09:19 AM

39. WHy does George Soros live in the US?

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #39)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:30 AM

46. What does that have to do with the article?

 

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Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Reply #46)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 01:50 PM

47. He is a Hungarian Jew

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #47)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:30 PM

57. He has been a US citizen for many years

Why should he be expected to go back to Hungary? A country which hasn't been his for a long time, and which does not particularly welcome Jews.

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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #57)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:19 AM

62. That is my point. He is here because of shiat like this.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 10:39 AM

43. Now this is the kind of shit that needs to be stopped by the international community.


Politicians the world over say some dumb things, but this is beyond dumb. This is evil, and it needs to be condemned accross the board.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 02:25 PM

48. so they aren't even going to pretend they aren't nazis

Most bigots know better then to be this obvious nowadays

Or so I had hoped

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Response to booley (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 04:37 PM

69. That's exactly what I thought during the election season this year

about republicans, "they aren't even going to pretend they aren't racist". I thought that most American bigots were smart enough to be covert about their sentiments in public, yet, this year, even the candidate was making birther jokes. And, since the election is over we have heard several lame explanations from the republicans, clarifying their loss, that complain about the role of ethnicity in the election outcome.
The "divide and conquer" strategy is as old as the hills but apparently still effective enough to be employed by those seeking power.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:37 PM

52. Oh, we've never seen anything like this before!

Oh..except in 1930s Germany.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 03:40 PM

53. the shoes beside the Danube


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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Thu Nov 29, 2012, 05:31 PM

58. Ugh. Like Poland, Hungary hasn't changed as much as it might in certain respects.

I have several British friends of Hungarian Jewish origin. Their families did not come to the UK just because they thought the view was prettier here...

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Fri Nov 30, 2012, 09:30 AM

63. Jesus. These idiots in Hungary and the Golden Dawn in Greece...

Is Fascism on the rise in Eastern Europe?

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Sat Dec 1, 2012, 05:47 AM

68. It isn't just the far-right...

Far-Right Hungarian MP Marton Gyongyosi Calls for List of “National Security Risk” Jews

---snip---

Reuters reports that 35-year-old Marton Gyongosi, a member of the far-right Jobbik party, called for the list after Foreign Ministry State Secretary Zsolt Nemeth affirmed Hungary’s desire for a peaceful solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Nemeth said that a peaceful resolution of the Palestine issue would benefit Hungarian Jews, Israelis of Hungarian origin and Palestinians living in Hungary.

--snip---

While the party is rife with anti-Semitism and anti-Roma racism, it has taken a strong stand against Israeli crimes against humanity in occupied Palestine. Jobbik President Gabor Vona recently accused Israel of operating “the world’s largest concentration camp” in Gaza.

British Prime Minister David Cameron is among the many international figures who has also called Gaza a “prison camp” or “the world’s largest open-air prison.”

Often, those who criticize Israeli crimes are accused of anti-Semitism. After Cameron’s remarks, for example, Israeli President Shimon Peres accused the entire nation of Britain of being anti-Semitic. Former Israeli education minister Shulamit Aloni candidly confessed that such accusations are “a trick” that Israelis “always use” to stifle criticism, but in the case of Hungary’s Jobbik party, the accusations are firmly rooted in truth.

For example, in 2009 a newsletter edited by Judit Szima, a former Jobbik candidate for European Parliament, declared that, “given our current situation, anti-Semitism is not just our right, but it is the duty of every Hungarian homeland lover, and we must prepare for armed battle against the Jews.”

http://morallowground.com/2012/11/27/far-right-hungarian-mp-marton-gyongyosi-calls-for-list-of-national-security-risk-jews/

FUN!!!

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 03:38 PM

84. When bad things happen, we tend to be the scape goat at one point or another

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