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Mon May 28, 2012, 12:47 PM

Gallup: Veterans Still Going Big For Romney And GOP

Source: TalkingPointsMemo.com

A new Gallup poll analysis released on Memorial Day shows that among veterans with a very clear preference in the presidential race, a majority supports Mitt Romney, corresponding with veterans’ Republican leanings.

Romney has 58 percent support among veterans, to Obama’s 34 percent. The data was collected from daily tracking polls between April 11 and May 24. During that same time frame, the two were tied overall at 46 percent among all registered voters; among non-veterans, Obama led with 48 percent to Romney’s 44 percent.

The Obama administration has has aggressively reached out to active and former military personnel. But the new numbers suggest winning over what has traditionally been a solidly Republican bloc might be a bridge too far.

The numbers are consistent with recent past performance. In the 2004 exit poll, George W. Bush carried voters who had served in the military, with 57 percent to John Kerry’s 41 percent, while Bush narrowly won the national election. In the 2008 exit poll, John McCain carried voters who had served in the military 54 percent to Barack Obama’s 44 percent, while Obama won the election by a wider margin than Bush had four years earlier.



Read more: http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/gallup-veterans-still-going-big-for-romney-and-gop.php



So much for Michelle Obama's campaign to help military families. Looks like the majority of vets will just continue to vote against their self-interest.

Standing Up on Veterans’ Issues: On issue after issue of importance to supporting our veterans, Democrats lead while most Republicans are nowhere to be found. For example, the 2010 Congressional Report Card from the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America ranked the voting records of members of the U.S. House and Senate on issues such as full and advanced funding for the Veterans Administration health care system (so that the VA does not always have to stand by nervously to see if they are going to get enough funding), supporting improvements to the post-9/11 GI Bill, modernizing the VA claims system, and providing unemployment benefits to combat veterans just returning from war. All of the Senators earning an A+ or A ranking are Democrats, while almost all of the Senators who earned a D or lower grade are Republicans. On the House side, most of the representatives earning an A+ or A are Democrats, while most of the D or lower grades went to Republicans. Similar results can be seen in IAVA’s 2008 report, IAVA’s 2006 report, and a recent ranking from the Disabled American Veterans.

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Reply Gallup: Veterans Still Going Big For Romney And GOP (Original post)
SunSeeker May 2012 OP
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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 12:49 PM

1. Veterans of which wars?

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Response to hedgehog (Reply #1)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:04 PM

2. Yeah, did they enjoy going to Iraq?

And repeatedly??

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #2)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:20 PM

8. I'm wondering if there is a divide between Vietnam vets

(who would all be over 58 years old by my count!) and the current crop.

Is someone who has been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan three times counted as a vet if they're still on active duty?

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Response to hedgehog (Reply #8)

Mon May 28, 2012, 03:32 PM

34. Veteran Demographics
















From: Profile of Veterans: 2009
Data from the American Community Survey
Prepared by the National Center for Veterans Analysis and Statistics January 2011

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Response to hedgehog (Reply #8)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:14 PM

51. Active military was donating more to ron paul than OB, you cannot blame it all on the older vets.nt

 

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #51)

Tue May 29, 2012, 05:56 AM

82. O.B. = "other bastards"?

Rick Santorum
Newt Gingerich
Willard "Mitt" Romney
Michelle Bachman??

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #51)

Sat Jul 7, 2012, 02:57 AM

154. Link?

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Response to hedgehog (Reply #8)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 01:15 PM

129. What do you expect when Rush is all over the military networks?

 

Many joined to simply be able to kill those "others" legitimately. the military is still one of the most racist institutions around and it simply gets back to Obama being black.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #2)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:17 PM

67. It was (is) a volunteer military, most joined to go.

 

There were also far more volunteers in vietnam than most realize, 2/3's of them. I was drafted. This page was recommended by the history channel, it has a lot if stuff on it:

http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

The point is that a lot of people DO join to go.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #67)

Tue May 29, 2012, 05:54 AM

81. I know that and it has nothing to do with my post

Multiple deployments to Iraq is a good reason to hate Bush &the Republicans.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #67)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 10:41 AM

143. Yes, more people enlisted in Vietnam, so they could SELECT what branch they would be in

Last edited Fri Jul 6, 2012, 11:24 AM - Edit history (1)

The best way to avoid combat in Vietnam was to enlist and then as part of your enlistment to opt for a non-combat arm of the Military. My older brother enlisted in the Navy, after the head of the local draft board told my Father he was to be drafted. The Air Force and the Navy thus avoided MOST draftees during the time period (Some Draftees did serve in both, but Volunteers to avoid the infantry were common).

The Army and Marines tend to get the most draftees, but even in those branches, you could opt for a specialty (Such as AA Defense) that that was almost never sent to Vietnam (Ground to Ground Missiles was another such branch). You could opt for a branch that rarely saw combat, such as Clerk Typists. Most of the US Army at that time was tied in with the "Tail" of the Combat team, the support elements, roughly about 10% was Infantry and Armor (The two branches most likely to see combat in Vietnam). Artillery, he other combat arm, was generally in the bases, subject to Mortar attacks, but other then that rarely saw combat (Through given the nature of the war, anyone in Vietnam could be attacked anywhere at anytime).

Thus you could minimize your risk of seeing actual combat by enlisting even into the US Army and Marine Corps. Thus a lot of potential draftees enlisted just for that option. These "Volunteers" would outnumber the actual draftees, but how many of these "Volunteers" would have Volunteered except for the Draft?

The best answer is seen in the 1970s, After the end of the draft in 1982, the number of Volunteers declined. The decline was so bad the US Army, was forced to use a little known exception in regards to women. In the 1947 law that set up the present US Military establishment was a cap on how many women could serve in the Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force, but no such cap for the Army, This was done in 1947 to avoid the issue of desegregation of the US Army. The law avoided that issue by just putting caps as to the other services, but NOT for the US Army. Truman and the Korean war ended segregation in the US Army, but the underlying law was never changed till the 1990s. Thus the US Army could, and did, increase the number of women in the Army (Up to 10% in the 1970s from almost none in the 1960s). All had to go to non-combat arms. I mention the women in the US Army of the 1970s to show HOW many men who volunteered in the 1960s was to avoid the combat arms, NOT do to any desire to enlist AND how many positions existed in the Army of a non-Combat role.

This phenomenal was known in WWI, WWII and Korea. FDR actually had served as an undersecretary of the Navy during WWI and saw the full effect of permitting draftees and volunteers to serve together. The Army favored the Volunteers for the simple reason, to encourage volunteers (Thus Volunteers were permitted to select the arm they would serve in, as opposed to draftees who were given no such choice). FDR response to this was to END the right to enlist after 1942 (From 1942 to 1945 you had to be DRAFTED, once drafted you could select the specialty you wanted to be in, but you could NOT volunteer). When the draft was reinstated FDR's restriction was NOT i.e you could enlist once again and much of the same pressure that FDR had tried to avoid during WWII came back into play.

Just pointing out that just because most people volunteered did not mean they actually wanted to go, most did so to avoid being drafted and LOSING ALL SAY IN WHICH ARM OF THE MILITARY THEY COULD SERVE IN.

Side note: Now a lot of people enlisted to actually served, but these were the exceptions not the rule for most volunteers. Some people wanted to be special forces, officers, or some other combat army (Pilots and their air and ground crews were well known for this), but compared to the people who just wanted to have a say where they would serve, these were a minority (i.e. they enlisted so to avoided the draft so they could retain some options by enlisting).

AS to the History Channel, it is a place for bad history. The spin in terrible, anything negative to a right wing agenda is minimized (or avoided). The movies on the History Channel are the worse (Showing Attila the Hun as a six foot athlete is an insult, Attila was a DWARF, regular body size but with short arms and legs was one of the worse example of this). Right now, the draft is viewed as bad by the Right Wing, for one of the side affects of the Draft was it brought in a huge number of people who would never have thought of joining the Military, and once in many stayed in (By Chief Drill Sargent in 1981 was such a draftee who then re-enlisted, but admitted he would NEVER have enlisted in the first place, this was more common then people think). A second side affect was a true universal service draftee army reflects the will of the people NOT its pay masters and much of the Right Wing wants an Army that will do what the Right Wing wants it to do, not want the people want.

A good example of this is the Vietnam era Army and the Iraqi/Afghanistan army. Both were long wars, but the Vietnam Era Army was a draftee army. It was as good (and in some aspects better) then the Army that went into Iraq and Afghanistan (Please note I an ignoring the technology differences, just looking at the enlisted ranks). The Vietnam era army fought well TILL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TURNED AGAINST THE WAR IN 1968. With that change in the attitude of the American People, the draftee army being a reflection of the people, also turned against the war (among the enlisted ranks). The US Army went into rapid decline, in many ways Nixon pulled US Troops out of Vietnam in 1972 due to how much it had declined since 1968.

In Afghanistan and Iraq, the US Army was a Volunteer Army. Unlike the War in Vietnam (Which had the support from the Majority of Americans till 1968), the American people NEVER gave Majority support for the war against Iraq (Through to get bin Laden they was majority support, but once it was clear that bin Laden was NOT going to be captured or killed AND the goal in Afghanistan was NO longer to get bin Laden, the majority of Americans opposed the war in Afghanistan). The number of African Americans enlisting in the Military dropped drastically after 2002 (African Americans viewed the Military as a way to get an education NOT as an opportunity to fight, the vast majority of such African Americans would fight, but did NOT enlist just for that opportunity) so that today the main area of enlistments is rural America. This army no longer reflects what the American People want, but what they paymasters want. Thus the 21st century US Army did NOT deteriorate, like the Vietnam Era Army did once the American people came to oppose a war.

This observation is ignored by the History Channel and most of the Right Wing. They want an Army that does as its Paymasters want it to do, not want the American People want it to do. Ancient Rome had a similar change, as long as the Roman People supported the Wars of the Roman Republic, Rome kept its universal service army, once the Roman People no longer supported such wars Rome switched to a Mercenary Army (Called a Volunteer Army, made up or Roman "Volunteers") and that army did as its paymasters wanted it to do (And within 70 years had converted the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire, Maius "Reforms of 109 BC, Caesar's Dictatorship 45 BC, please note Sulla was a Dictator using the new paid legions as his power base from 86-78 BC).

More on Sulla:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Cornelius_Sulla
Side note: One of the reason Sulla ended up resigning the Dictatorship was he was losing control over the people of Rome and the Legions. Thus to avoid a revolution, he resigned and then claimed it was part of his plan for Rome. Caesar and later Augustus saw what the problem had been for Sulla, both proceeded to obtain the power of Tribune with its support from the people of Rome AND obtained command (via being the paymasters) of ALL of the Legions (Sulla had NOT done that, Maius's reforms permitted legion Commanders to pay the volunteers out of the commander's own pocket, NOT out of the Roman Treasury, Augustus Kept this tradition, but made sure Augustus was the paymaster not the actual commander of the Legion. i.e Augustus was the "Dux" of the Legion, the actual Legionary Commander was his "Legate" i.e lieutenant in command of the Legion when ever the "Dux" was not present. Maius tried to keep up with the Roman Tradition of division of Power, a concept abandoned by Augustus who retained all the real power of all of the offices of the Roman Republic.

More on Marius:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Marius

Just a comment on Rome and its lost of its liberties from 109 BC to 45 BC. .

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Response to happyslug (Reply #143)

Sat Jul 7, 2012, 11:00 PM

156. You are wrong, Vietnam was not a "draftee war" WWII was.

Only 1,728,344 men were drafted from 1965 through June 1973 when the draft ended.
I enlisted in the Army for instance, and was totally safe from the draft, before enlisting.

In 1970, 22% of the Army was draftee. Volunteers accounted for almost 70% of the combat deaths.
The biggest draft year for Vietnam was 382,010 in 1966.

In 1953 (the Korean War) 59% of all Army enlisted were draftees. a total of 1,569,141 were drafted between Aug. 1959 and July 1953.
The biggest draft year for Korea was 561,770 in 1953.

In WWII 93% of the Army that served was drafted, and even the Navy and Coast Guard had to draft (36% of sea faring military was draftee, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard).

Marines had to draft big during WWII and Korea, but only drafted 42,633 men during Vietnam, (they drafted 83,858 from Aug. 1951 to Oct. 1952 for instance).

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Response to braddy (Reply #156)

Sun Jul 8, 2012, 04:41 PM

157. What is a "Volunteer"?

Last edited Sun Jul 8, 2012, 05:49 PM - Edit history (2)

From 1942 to 1945 NO ONE COULD ENLIST, you had to be DRAFTED to get into any service. Thus the high rates of Draftees during WWII, it was the ONLY way to enter the service from 1942-1945. Thus if you wanted to volunteer you could NOT.

By the time of Vietnam, it was clear the best way to avoid the draft was to enlist, the various service encouraged this and kept pointing this out, by enlisting you could pick not only the branch of service, but the specialty so you could avoid combat. Thus the high rate of Volunteers during Vietnam, it was the most effective way to avoid the draft.

Come the end of the draft in 1972, enlistment rates dropped drastically, the Army had to resort to expanding the specialties women could enlist into.

Thus a lot of "Volunteers" during Vietnam were people trying to avoid the draft, thus were "de-facto" draftees (i.e. draftees in fact, while technically enlisting but enlisting to have a larger say in where he can serve within the Military as opposed to people actually drafted).

More on some of Myths of Vietnam:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7t-XPOvtWUkC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=Vietnam+Draftee+Infantry&source=bl&ots=yuPP_KFbxt&sig=0gUOzIG-YAby19Gw_SGHvao0QiI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7ur5T-OhDaji0gGH2anDBg&ved=0CFcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Vietnam%20Draftee%20Infantry&f=false

In simple terms, while enlistment in 1965 and 1966 stayed at the level it was before Vietnam, after 1966 more and more draftees ended up in the Army Infantry, which lead to a rapid decline in the Army infantry (The Marines managed to hold up the quality of its its infantry, but more and more that looks at the cost of the Army's Infantry). People enlisted to avoid the infantry, which consistent of only 10% of the US Army in Vietnam, but made up 83% of all Casualties in Vietnam. Thus the best way to avoid injury was to avoid the infantry, and the best way to do that was to enlist, it was the draftees that filled in the Army infantry (and to a much lesser degree the Marines).

Recruiters of ALL of the Services knew of the above, thus encouraged to enlist to avoid the draft. That is what my older brother did, as did MOST OF THE SAILORS he served with. These were thus "Volunteers" but only volunteer due to the fact they wanted to avoid being drafted.

2004 article that make the same point as I did, the best way to avoid combat was to enlist.
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles2004/2004217.asp

Yes, most Americans serving in Vietnam were "Volunteers" as was my brother (on a naval ship off the coast of Vietnam), but many, if not most of those "Volunteers" were like my brother, volunteered so they could avoid combat. Thus volunteering was better then running off the Canada or committing some other illegal act. The local draft board head advised my father to get my older brother enlisted, even they new the best way to avoid combat was to enlist. IT was COMMON KNOWLEDGE and thus used extensively, but rarely written down for no one wanted to appear to be encouraging draft dodging. Today, the rate of volunteers in Vietnam is used to show that the Draft did not WORK, the problem is that the rate of enlistments in Vietnam was driven by the Draft. This can be seen in the drop in enlistments (and the quality of enlistees) in the 1970s, after the draft was abandoned.

The army infantry hit rock bottom about 1972. it took the Army to about 1985 to get its infantry units up to what it had been in 1965. Several factors permitted this to occur AND for the Military as a whole be functional in the 1970s:

1. The peak year for the baby boom was 1957, add 18 to that you come to 1975, thus unlike the 1950s and the 1960s, but the 1970s you had a much larger pool of young people entering the job market thus larger pool to get enlistments from. One side affect of this was long term unemployment. The unemployment was NOT structural, i.e. it was Not the same people unemployed, but people taking up to 18 months AFTER entering the job market to find a job.

2. The economics of the 1970s was a series of recessions followed periods of high oil prices, Thus another factor for people to enlist, as did my two older sisters, for the bonuses to enlist and an inability to find other employment opportunities at that time. i.e. economic draftees.

3. Bonuses to enlist, especially into the combat arms, extensively done in the 1970s (I even had one when I enlisted into the National Guard in the early 1980s into the Field Artillery).

Both of the above lead to higher percentage of young people looking at the military as an option. Despite this, the Military had to do TWO things to reflect the drop in who was willing to enlist, first was the US Army widespread adoption of women in non-combat position, but also that the US Military reduced its "conflict" ability from 2 1/2 wars (Two offensive operations and one defensive operations, the norm from the end of WWII to 1972) to 1 1/2 wars. This was to reflect the reduction in the ability of the US Army to do its functions. The US rule stayed at 1 1/2 wars till the collapse of the Soviet Union, then do to lobbying the Pentagon went back to a 2 1/2 was policy (While reducing the number of people in the military, but this post 1992 policy has nothing to do with our discussion, but more the result of lobbying by lobbyists to congress to keep up the money to people who sells to the Military).

Just pointing out how much of the Volunteering for Vietnam was driven by the draft, something some people do NOT want to accept.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #157)

Sun Jul 8, 2012, 10:08 PM

158. More nonsense, I was a volunteer as were most servicemen during that era.

The idea that men enlisted by the millions"to avoid the draft" is nonsense. Vietnam was not like Korea and WWII where the draft was a desperate measure to fill the ranks.

Most people don't know that from 1965 through 1973, only about 695,00 more men were drafted than from 1956 through 1964.

Marines total draft needs were half of what they were in Korea, yet Vietnam is the second most bloody war for the Marines second only to WWII for them, and much longer. Less than 5% of the Marine Corp deaths were draftees.
Also, between 50% and 60% of the Marines enlisted for 2 years.

Al Gore enlisted in the Army for two years which was common, that meant you had no contract and no choice of job, it was the same as being drafted in that sense.

In 1971 there were only 184,000 military people in Vietnam, the real military service for most people was here, and in Europe.

I fought the draft and beat it, I didn't believe in the draft and was somewhat active as part of the anti-draft movement, I did believe in military service though and I and all of my brothers enlisted during the war, I was well aware of the discussions of the time, and your scenario was not a common one at all.

The draft ended in 1973 and it didn't keep almost 70% of the men killed in Vietnam from being volunteers, the Vietnam war was more popular with the under 30 age group than any other age group in the later years of the war, as far as enlistments slowing in the aftermath of the war, of course they did, the war was over and the military was in disfavor, it was reducing it's size, officers were being forced out, budgets reduced, the Army/military from 1973 to 1980 was a crummy place to be, boring, poor, nothing to do, no career advancement, an unpopular commander in chief, pay shrinking, no new weapons, no money for training, rif-raf and idiots brought into the ranks, a perception that America was broken and timid.
From 1970 to 1980 the military was reduced by one third, it had a million fewer people by 1980.

Political pressure changed the situation for females, it was not because the military was so desperate for personnel.

Do not think that during the Vietnam war things were totally different somehow, people enlisted to serve, and they enlisted for jobs that they preferred to do, and for benefits such as the GI bill, not merely to avoid the infantry. The same exact thing takes place in a peace time military, people enlist for jobs that they want to do or for training that they want to receive.

Here are the reasons for the 1970s military. The term hollow force was being widely used to characterize not only the shortages of experienced personnel but also the shortages of training, weapons, and equipment that undermined military readiness during the mid and late 1970s.

• low public support for the military;
• pressure to cut defense spending;
• difficulties in maintaining an all-volunteer force (i.e., failure to attract and retain
high-quality recruits)
• declining pay;
• poor morale;
• delays in fielding modern armaments and equipment; and
• inadequate attention to maintenance of existing equipment

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #2)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 10:56 PM

150. Enjoy? No, of course not. But vets believed in the mission and judge

that those denegrating it in effect attacked them by proxy.

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Response to hedgehog (Reply #1)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:42 PM

17. No Wars, it's all BS

Notice the carefully worded qualifiers "among veterans with a very clear preference in the presidential race". Since when do they count only those with a VERY CLEAR Preference? That's not standard polling.

Then they throw in some rigged stats to make it sound all so professional. Really they had accurate voting stats for 2004 when the bushes tried to stop most exit polling?

These fake opinion polls are to convince you to vote for fools. Notice they don't mention 2000 where they refused to count absentee votes from the military in many states including Florida.

It's pure spin and propaganda. This veteran wont be fooled again.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #17)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:47 PM

46. Exactly.

Nothing but propaganda.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #17)

Thu May 31, 2012, 11:01 PM

104. +1000 +++, n/t

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Response to fasttense (Reply #17)

Sun Jun 3, 2012, 11:02 PM

116. +1

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Response to fasttense (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 6, 2012, 10:05 AM

125. Good catch, wtf is Gallup up to, ...they're losing gredibilty

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Response to fasttense (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 08:55 AM

141. Good catch.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #17)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 02:16 PM

145. It smelled bad, I do not buy this shit either...

I can not see ANY vet who would want to see their VA Benefits/Medicad/Medicare cut and handed over to wall street.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:07 PM

3. Yeah, nothing says military service like the Romney family. Oh wait . . .

They are eager to send OTHER children into war. Almost forgot.

And by the way, the president's grandfather was with Patton in WWII. Find a Romney who ever served. I have no problem with that, except he's a warmonger. That, I have a problem with.

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Response to Faygo Kid (Reply #3)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:29 PM

54. Military service should not be an issue. I say that as a vietnam veteran

 

who voted for obama that did not serve and twice for clinton who did not serve. They are all warmongers. Clinton in bosnia, obama and the surge. There are real reasons to not vote for Rmoney.

My point is that military service does little to sway us. Look at Bob Dole and McCain.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #54)

Tue May 29, 2012, 09:07 PM

92. Ohhh, it sure should.

Willard had a deferment in the late 1960s. And he WILL send more Americans to die in more wars. That hypocrisy must be pointed out again and again and again and again.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:10 PM

4. Veterans: Higher rate of stupid?

Looks that way.

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #4)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:41 PM

29. I hope this isn't true. I would expect more from our veterans -

toward their Commander-in-Chief, whose wife and family (AND his Vice President and HIS wife and family - one of whom recently served in Iraq) have laser-focused this entire term on the needs of veterans and their families. Their Commander-in-Chief is more focused on bringing troops home, compared to his chickenhawk/hid-out-in-Paris-in-the-champagne-missionary-division-during-Vietnam opponent who somehow thinks we're back in the Cold War against Russia, and whose foreign policy advisers are all part of the bush/cheney war-criminal lie-us-into-illegal-war machine. And they're for THAT guy? INGRATES.

No need to worry about saying something that somehow dishonors their service. THEY'RE taking care of that just fine, on their own.

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #4)


Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #4)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:35 PM

44. Not stupid, but conservative--in some cases

The military leans right most of the time, but other polls show this to be an outlier.

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Response to Maeve (Reply #44)

Tue May 29, 2012, 08:01 PM

90. When you see what "conservatism" does to this country, you'd be stupid to support it.

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #90)

Thu May 31, 2012, 11:04 PM

106. Conservatism + fundy religion will eventually take this country under IMO if not stopped. n/t

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #106)

Mon Jun 4, 2012, 01:25 PM

120. You got that right. n/t

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Response to Maeve (Reply #44)

Mon Jul 9, 2012, 01:11 AM

161. I'm in the military...

 

Army, 14 years active duty. It is no outlier. I am on a Brigade staff and regularly overhear anti-Obama/Liberal conversations on an almost daily basis. By officers, NCOs, junior enlisted, black, white, hispanic, you name it. It is just a different culture, you have to experience it. I listened to an African Officer (MI, from Ivory Coast) joke to me that he heard Obama was leading in the polls 60-40... In France. And he laughed heartily assuming I would appreciate it. You have no idea how deep the mistrust is with this President. I've had a Honduran Master Sergeant (I'm a very white Major) say to me "there's you're boy" as President Obama was giving a minor speech on the television. Hell, I've had a Puerto Rican female Captain ask if I was "really" an Obama guy. The only pro-Obama guy I know of for sure is an African-American warrant officer who gave our civilian training guy crap for keeping the channel on Fox News (he only watches The Five, which I kinda like because I like Greg Gutfeld.) And the ladies are nice to look at it.

All I'm really saying here is let's try our best not to deceive ourselves. When we deceive ourselves, we are the only ones who suffer the consequences of false intelligence. The military is regularly bashed here because, IMO, some of us realize the military will never be anything other than right/center. I realize that but I am a part of it and see it for more good than bad because I am involved. I've had 4 deployments to Iraq and one to Afghanistan and know that half of what is reported is unadulterated crap...and I'm a self-proclaimed liberal. That being said....get the hell out of Afghanistan NOW. They are a worthless group of assholes that deserve nothing from the rest of us. If they were as noble as we thought they were they would toss the Taliban out. They won't because courage and bravery are not an Afghan trait. In fact there is no such thing as an Afghan trait. They are a disparate group of tribes malingering within an artificial border. What did we expect?

The military will likely never be a rich source of votes for us. Not because of the training. Because it generally attracts a certain type of person. The type of person that is likely to vote for the GOP. 14 years in the army, I've been paying attention the whole time and have been a D the whole time. I was raised in a union family (Dad's a retired Teamster, truck driver) and I was a union guy (Teamster, UPS) while I was working my way through college. I'm just not surprised by this poll.

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #4)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:17 PM

52. Why not just drive all veterans away, who is the stupid one?nt

 

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #52)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:33 PM

62. Note that it was a question.

Not a statement but a question. I am open to other suggestions.

Julie

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #62)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:46 PM

63. It shows what you think to word it that way. nt

 

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #63)

Tue May 29, 2012, 02:36 AM

78. When I think Mitt Voter

I think either stupid or rich. What do you think?

Julie

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #4)

Wed May 30, 2012, 12:11 PM

97. I thought the same thing, but

it may also be a higher rate of brainwashing.

Sadly, I think this country has devolved into the truly ignorant and the willfully ignorant.

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Response to Carolina (Reply #97)

Wed May 30, 2012, 12:32 PM

98. I think you're right.

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #4)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 10:25 AM

128. If it's true I want out of this country full of idiots

I really can't take it anymore

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Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 9, 2012, 12:31 AM

159. Jeez...

 

Higher Rate of Stupid? Are you still confounded as to why veterans (I am one) are overwhelmingly (R)? Continuing to insult an entire group for not voting your preference will likely not result in their voting the way you want them to. Or maybe it will. Let's keep trying and see what happens.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:14 PM

5. One Word

IDIOTS!

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:15 PM

6. We're still living the days of Guadalcanal

John Wayne might be dead but his spirit lives on.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:16 PM

7. Why would any vet back this chickhawk asshat?

 

It just seems so ridiculous.

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #7)

Mon May 28, 2012, 03:45 PM

36. Veteran Voters and Veteran's Organizations

In reality it is the various Veteran's Organizations that sway the vote one way or the other. Here in West Virginia it has been swayed for many years by the American Legion and VFW through the West Virginia Veteran's Council.

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Response to kworkman (Reply #36)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:23 PM

42. BS. I am lifetime DAV and MANy years Ametican leion and they have NEVER tried to sway my vote.nt

 

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #42)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:13 PM

50. Veteran Voters and Veteran's Organizations

I too belong to the DAV. It is the one non-political group in the state. Having been involved in Veteran's issues for many years there are some thing you just learn. You may not like them but that doesn't change their way of thinking. I'm speaking of course from personal experience. Yours may be different.

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Response to kworkman (Reply #50)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:24 PM

53. ???? I stated I am a lifetime member and they have never tried

 

to sway my note. Why would you say I may not like them? I am very active in veterans issuse and love them. Just as you say they are VERY non-political. Not sure why you are directing your post to me.

If anything people on our side expressing hate toward them (us) does much more to sway the vote. In reality I have had NONE of the veterans groups try to get me to vote either way. Claiming so hurts us far more than helps us, these groups help far more than most so called charity organizations.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #53)

Tue May 29, 2012, 11:08 AM

87. going back in history on DU, we discussed

a leader of DAV in the south who endorsed little boots; and had buyer's remorse afterwards. Before 9/11 the flag pin was only worn by congresscritters who actually served in the military. After, every chickenhawk was wearing one and the media questioned those who did not wear one. Most of those in congress wearing that flag pin before 9/11, were democrats. Party hardy little boot's got preferential treatment, he did not serve in vietnam and five deferment cheney, apparently, had more important things to do than serve his country. Some in the military are completely clueless about how these sociopaths think. As kissenger said, they are cannon fodder. And yet, we have those in the military who will endorse those who put them in harms way on a lie? Especially a lie, that increases certain favored corporate interest over the well being of the citizens in this country.

The repugs want to privatize VA. Most, are for cutting benefits. And yet, some claim that both parties are for the veterans?

Also, I'm not a fan of the american legion. Weren't they for mussolini before they were against him? It seems that fascism was just fine for some folks in this country.

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Response to kworkman (Reply #36)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:13 AM

83. The American Lesion is a pox

http://zenhuber.blogspot.com/2006/09/rummy-and-american-legion-of-lemmings_06.html

2006:
...
Today, the American Legion is abetting the same line of horse feathers to support the Bush administration and its agendas and policies. It's not the fault of young Mister Bush or old Messrs Cheney and Rumsfeld or any of the rest of the bad men of the neoconservative cabal that America's misadventures in Afghanistan and Iraq have put our ship of state bow down in the water. It's those pesky old liberal reporters, and the likes of that wicked old Cindy Sheehan that don't know how to practice their rights to freedom of speech in a "responsible" manner.

According to Resolution 169, Iraq War protestors "are not only causing additional pain and anguish to America’s heroes, they are also encouraging the enemy, thereby lengthening the war."

War protestors who want the war to stop are lengthening the war? Come on, American Legion.

Proposition 169 acknowledges the right of war protestors to speak out, but admonishes them to limit their activities to things like writing letters to their local newspapers, e-mailing their representatives in Congress, and voting against political candidates whose stances on the war they find objectionable. In other words, anyone who disagrees with the administration's policies and war strategies should feel free to voice their opinions as long as they do so in a way that no one can hear them.

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #7)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 08:57 AM

142. They are fed BS that Defense cuts = less pay for them.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:20 PM

9. They want perpetual war

and slashed benefits?

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Response to abolugi (Reply #9)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:24 PM

43. Nobody has slashed benefits, neither party. Where did you get that? I get veterans benefits.nt

 

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:26 PM

10. I am not sure if this poll is say much

Veterans? Why not break it down more to show what war or time frame served? Why not state age? Why not state race?

In one way I don't find this surprising. My whole life I have heard how the military supports the Republican. I can tell you from my observations it is difficult to get a group of people to change certain preconception on politics, no matter if the evidence against any logic in those preconceptions.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:28 PM

11. Sorry, I don't buy it

Any poll can be swayed one war or another depending on where you run the polls. The right wing is doing all they can to make Romney look good, but I don't buy any of this shit.

Romeny is a chicken hawk through and through, while I sam sure there are some "old" timers who are vets and still only vote for republicans, I really don't think the numbers as as high as this article says they are, far from it. Since the right wing owns the media, and since polls change all the time depending on who does the poll, and like I said, where they do the polling, I don't trust polls.

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Response to Andy823 (Reply #11)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:34 AM

77. Vets (unless drafted) have always been pro-GOP

 

It's no surprise to me at all. Just like guys who make action movies. Almost all are Republican.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:28 PM

12. Well, it's Gallup, and they are friendlier to the GOP.

I know many vets, but few and far between are the supporters of RMoney. Most prefer the incumbent.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:30 PM

13. Srsly? Vets suport a chickenhawk over the guy who got bin Laden?

Oh, right. He was just doing his mission. He wasn't dodging any draft. Yeah, that's the ticket! I'll have to go tell my wife, Morgan Fairchild, who I've seen naked!

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #13)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:33 AM

76. Neither of them served

 

Both are hawks too, sadly.

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Response to Ter (Reply #76)

Tue May 29, 2012, 11:00 AM

86. But Obama didn't dodge the draft

He's three years older than me. We both came of age during a lull (relatively speaking) in the seemingly endless series of wars.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:40 PM

14. This has already been debunked

By the poll two weeks ago showing Obama leading by 7 among veterans.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/14/us-usa-poll-military-idUSBRE84C02120120514

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #14)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:48 PM

21. Of course!

'Terry Seawright, a Navy reservist who drives a Fedex truck, voted for Obama in 2008 and plans to do so again in 2012. "I like the coolness and calmness of him," said Seawright, 46. "I like the way he handled Egypt and Libya. He said, ‘No troops on the ground.'"'

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:41 PM

15. gallup

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Response to elleng (Reply #15)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:14 PM

25. throwup



Throwing up random numbers and vomiting out whatever they want them to say. Gallup's latest puking has about as much relevance as the thing my cat hawked up last night.

I'd love to know what percentage of vets have that so-called "very strong preference." A statistically significant percentage of all vets? I'll bet not.

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Response to beac (Reply #25)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:47 PM

30. I'll bet not too, AND

consider the different demographic of 'vets,' as in How many wars have we engaged in during the last 70 years?
(As an example, my Dad, who passed on in April, was a Vet, served in WWII, was 98, and was a Dem. I'll bet Gallup didn't poll HIM!)

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Response to elleng (Reply #15)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:25 PM

27. Gall"made it"up

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:41 PM

16. I blame the Armed Forces Network that's horribly slanted in favor of rightwing programs.

Astonishing, considering how Republicans try to CUT funding for Veterans every chance they get, so, for me, the only explanation for this wrongheaded phenomenon - I blame the Armed Forces Network that's horribly slanted in favor of rightwing programs.

Propaganda, courtesy of the American taxpayers who are predominantly progressive.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:42 PM

18. And yet virtually none are contributing to him.


The following article certainly doesn't mesh with this one. Currently Obama is outraising money from Veterans 5 to 1.



http://www.kpbs.org/news/2012/may/25/Military-giving-more-money-obama-romney/

Members of the U.S. military and Department of Defense employees are giving more money to President Obama's presidential campaign than Mitt Romney's, according to an analysis of campaign finance reports by USA Today. In fact, Obama is gaining military contributions at a 5-to-1 ratio to Romney.

Which branch of the military is giving the most money to the candidates? According to USA Today:


Army employees are the biggest source of military contributions to each: $108,571 to Obama and $22,004 to Romney.


Moreover this excerpt from the article would seem to indicate that the poll is an outlier:

Romney has 58 percent support among veterans, to Obama’s 34 percent. The data was collected from daily tracking polls between April 11 and May 24. During that same time frame, the two were tied overall at 46 percent among all registered voters; among non-veterans, Obama led with 48 percent to Romney’s 44 percent.

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Response to grantcart (Reply #18)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:07 PM

49. Most active contributed to Ron Paul.

 

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:42 PM

19. If they supported AWOL Georgie, they'll support any R-hole.

Veterans are not immune to the ignorance that suffuses our politics. White people tend to vote their race and veterans tend to vote their "patriotism." Sad, but nothing new.

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Response to hay rick (Reply #19)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:32 PM

55. Yes, attack us. That'll get the rest on our side.

 

Funny how we want, and hope, to be the party that supports veterans but when the chips are down the haters show up. Thar REALLY shows we want to support veterans.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #55)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:08 PM

60. Boo hoo.

This is a Democratic web site. Statements that veterans who vote Republican are misguided is what you should expect when you come here. Maybe you wandered onto the wrong site.

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Response to hay rick (Reply #60)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:53 PM

65. What a stereotypical hater.

 

You are absolutely one of the reasons the majority of veterans vote republican. Comments have been made here against veterans in general, do you not see the difference? Do you not see it would be better to win them over than drive them further away and possibly more? Of course not, you would have to be able to see past your nose.

If these statements were made about any other group you would be whining. Veterans make up a good sized voting block, better to have the

Congrats, if the majority of veterans vote for romney you can thank you and people like you.

There are a lot of union people that vote republican, I have not seen people here attacking unions in general. Why? We are unfortunate enough to have military and veterans haters like you.

My message to you and those like you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=130126

I am latino, born in mexico to be exact. If you had said the same things about latinos or mexicans people would be appaled. You probably would not have said it.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #65)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:21 PM

68. Poor logic. A vet votes repub. Calling him misguided for doing so didn't make him vote that way.

I see winning vets over by providing better healthcare, better support to them as being the way to go, not anonymous postings on an internet forum. Especially one with a political slant like this where of COURSE people voting repub, no matter vet or not, are going to be called misguided.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #68)

Mon May 28, 2012, 11:46 PM

71. Misguided? Who said misguided? That's warped logic.

 

I am not talking about someone saying misguided, I am talking about blanket comments on vets like stupid. Democtats already perceived as vet/military unfriendly, do you think attacking vets will draw them over to our side? It just solidifies us as vet haters. Places like this get referred to on vet forums, there ARE no secrets on the internet.

Adios, If I stay here I might even decide to vote 3rd party. I'll leave this place to the haters. I contacted the admin earlier to delete my account.

Calling them misguided? Give me a break. Threads like this bring out the haters and yes we have more than I would like to admit to. Those things you refer to are what I am talking about exactly. Not attacking and putting the blame on my generation of vets when the majority of active donated to Ron Paul.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #71)

Mon May 28, 2012, 11:55 PM

73. The person you replied to, who you called "a stereotypical hater" said that. Since you called

him "a stereotypical hater" for his mild post saying "This is a Democratic web site. Statements that veterans who vote Republican are misguided is what you should expect when you come here."

That is who said misguided.

Since you called him "a stereotypical hater" and "You are absolutely one of the reasons the majority of veterans vote republican" and "We are unfortunate enough to have military and veterans haters like you", I naturally assumed that that was who you were talking about.

Since you did say all that to hay rick in response to his "misguided" statement, wtf are you going on about?

Is this your Good Bye Cruel World post? Perhaps you have missed that most of us are trying to get healthcare, better support to vets. Ah well, GBCW. As you said, threads like this bring out the haters.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #71)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:00 AM

74. Educating yourself will make you vote 3rd party? Here's how to delete your account, if you are serio

serious about doing so.

Click "log out". Close the internet browser. If you fear you may come back and want to post more, you could change your password to gibberish. Or pull a Walt Starr, though that is more difficult these days.

If you fear reading other posts, educating yourself, learning how to participate in the political process, then I can see your problem with being here. Good luck to you, wherever you may go.

Before you go, I am curious as to how you found DU and why you came here. What you were expecting, etc. I've been here since 04, walked away several times for a break, found it useful in some ways and frustrating in others. There is a wide group of people here, wide range. Tell me about you?

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #68)

Tue Jun 5, 2012, 12:07 PM

122. why would vets go with ron paul?

he wants to privatize, corporatize everything, including the VA. You think the corporations have power now, just wait when they start giving every government service to the corporations. Oh, I believe that's fascism. You know, "government and business against the will of the people." Do vets really know ron paul's stances on deregulation and business? Of course, me being a woman, I would never, ever vote for the man.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:44 PM

20. May not want to believe the poll

but I really do believe that they are working night and day to control the polls and they have the power and the $$$'s to fix this any election.

They are working night and day to suppress the vote and that is why they don't really care what Democrats think about any issue.

Have you noticed that they don't change their negative positions on ANYTHING?

Romney "chinning and grinning " at The Donald's Moneyraiser.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:55 PM

22. This "poll" is the polar opposite of one reported about a month ago.



I say it's too early to tell. But from the photographic evidence of the Prez's visits to the active duty troops, I call it lies.


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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 01:59 PM

23. Can't believe this poll

Especially when just two weeks ago, Obama led by 7 [link:http://news.yahoo.com/weary-warriors-favor-obama-040547455.html|

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:11 PM

24. As pointed in post #17 "among veterans **with a very clear preference in the presidential race**".

This is a subset of veterans, so the title (and the article) is misleading.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:20 PM

26. They probably went to the VFW to take the survey..,most

of them are 70 and older...

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Response to movonne (Reply #26)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:03 PM

47. You seem to be ignoring that Ron Paul was getting more donations than anyone among active duty

 

military. It's just easy and a cop out to blame someone else.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #47)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 05:30 PM

138. Would you mind posting the supporting link for that?

...and active duty military and veterans are not the same thing.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:29 PM

28. thats bullshit. It infuriates me that the right think they have a lock on the military

they dont. Most of them dont even vote. Here's a shocker, especially in the guard and reserve, we're just a slice of society and we run the political spectrum.


IAVA is, by far, the best and most effective veterans organization in this country. They are so apolitical it drives me fucking crazy sometimes when they could really nails repubs and get something passed. But their restraint is a great asset, because they can get into the offices almost every representative and senator. They also have a real online network for veterans, and get actual dialogue going on the gritty stuff. I can't recommend them enough> Keep them in mind if you donate to a veterans organization.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)


Response to krawhitham (Reply #31)

Mon May 28, 2012, 02:54 PM

32. Classy comment...

My dad volunteered for the Vietnam War and was a Democrat. But in your eyes, he was just a murderer.


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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #32)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:08 PM

61. He did participate in a very very big wrong.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #61)

Mon May 28, 2012, 10:56 PM

69. Keep shrugging...

You just show how awful so many on the left can be and prove why many vets choose to support Republicans. At least they don't denigrate and shit on their memories for a decisions your sorry mind can't even begin to comprehend.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #69)

Tue May 29, 2012, 02:41 AM

79. So US military action in Vietnam was right?

You don't get to be absolved of your deeds because someone else made a decision for you. Please explain to my sorry mind why you think it should be any different.

PS - Many brave vets chose to resist unjust and inhumanely executed wars before. Conservatives are usually pretty quick denigrate and shit on them for their decisions too. The difference is these vets are usually in the moral right. Cheers

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #79)

Tue May 29, 2012, 02:49 AM

80. You're not worth my time...

It's clear what you think of my late father. So, I see no reason to carry on this discussion. My father was a patriot and a good man who fought for his country and then returned home, settled down and died because of that war. Don't lecture me on Vietnam. Don't presume to know shit about my dad or his decision making.

But continue shitting on the veterans. It shows how shameful you really are.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #80)

Wed May 30, 2012, 07:26 AM

95. You seem angry. Dodging my question shows weakness.

I know the difference between right and wrong. Choosing to do the right thing is hard sometimes, especially when society around you tries to bully you into thinking the wrong way. But giving in and going along with society does not absolve you of your deeds.

Obviously you have trouble criticizing the people who came before you, especially if they were your family. That's ok; the ability to criticize others is not really that useful anyway. What is really important is self-reflection.

When I read about Vietnam, I came to the conclusion that I would never participate in the abrogation human rights, nor people's right to self-determination. Even if that means being called a traitor by my neighbors. Even if that means going to jail.

Have a nice day.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #79)

Sun Jun 3, 2012, 03:45 PM

113. Bullshit. Both my grandfathers did tours in Europe and North Africa during the second World War

and one of my uncles served in Vietnam.

Just because they didn't burn their draft cards doesn't make them murderers.

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Response to Arkana (Reply #113)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 03:45 AM

126. Was I talking about WW2?

Those men were heroes. Thanks for making my point.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #79)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 05:38 AM

127. "Absolved of your deeds"?

With no knowledge of an individual's actions in a combat zone you'll "denigrate and disparage" him merely because his government sent him there to participate in its war.

That sounds very much like the conservative reaction you criticize--that, in the case of draft resisters and dodgers, conservatives "denigrate and shit on them for their decisions."

You're doing precisely the same thing to those who ended up--for whatever reasons--being sent to war.

Many served because they believed it was the right and moral thing to do, and JFK had asked them to consider what they could do for their country. Others were drafted, and didn't see going to jail or escaping to Canada as viable options.

The distinction you make is that the resisters "are usually in the moral right." But if you stop and think for a second, how many of those you denigrate and shit on who went to Vietnam went there intending to serve the moral wrong? Do you really believe that they went along with it all only because they were evil and immoral?

That's the same attitude that led to many Vietnam vets undeservedly being called "baby-killer" and other names after they got back.

Maybe you're off-base in expecting them all to be politically astute philosophers at that age. Maybe you forgot that that their average age when they arrived in-country--after initial military training--was 19.

I was one of them (though I didn't arrive in Vietnam until I was 20). I turned 21 on a hill in the A Shau Valley on a night when I was sure we'd be overrun and I was going to die.

Your view doesn't reflect any understanding of the many reasons why people ended up in that fucked-up war, or any compassion for those who did end up there.

But what the hell. We got used to being "denigrated and shit on" a long time ago...

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #127)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 06:04 PM

132. Thanks for the reasoned and thoughtful response

Except for the part where my view was characterized as "denigrating and shitting" these people as well as considering them all as being "baby-killers" which is way off-base. But I'm sorry, I do not except most of what you have written. Anyone who participated was an accessory to something was extremely and obviously morally wrong. Not just politically wrong but morally. You bring up the fact that many, if most, thought what they were doing was right. No one has the right to tell people who they can and can't vote for, especially when they are trying to rebuild their country in the wake of brutal foreign oppression, and then prop up a brutal, unelected dictator. It is not a complicated concept. You don't need to be philosopher to understand this. Nor is not being "astute" mitigating in any way. If you are going to travel halfway across the globe to pick a fight with people you don't know, you damn well better take a moment to figure out what you are doing and why.

This is why there are wars. In every war there ever was, it was because at least one side was wrong. Maybe sometimes the other side is a little wrong too, but there is always one side that is mainly wrong, and it is usually the instigator. There could not have been a greater difference in the US's moral position in WW2 and Vietnam.


Every single branch of the military, including the Air Force, called me twice in high school to go to Iraq in a time when a majority of this country was clamoring for war. Because of what I had read about Vietnam(which btw was all pro-US material, but I had a bs detector) I knew the US would not have the best in mind for the Iraqi people, but quite the opposite. So I didn't go. I fancied myself quite the patriot after reading about the civil war and WW2. I was proud of what had I read; to belong to this country. You could say reading about Vietnam was what first 'broke' my patriotism. And the more I read about this countries shift after the forties, and it's actions in other countries, the more disappointed I became.

No I did not have have to deal with the draft, like you, but I can say with conviction I would have resisted tooth and nail. Until this country changes. In your post, you seemed to speak mostly for others. I am curios what your personal reasons were for your decisions back then.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #132)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 06:14 PM

139. It's easy to sit back and say that you would have done this or done that...

But you're basing your decision on the information available now.

I wasn't old enough to go to Vietnam. I joined the army during the Carter administration. I was in basic training when the Shah took the hostages in Iran, and I was scared shitless.

When i was a teenager; I asked my dad (a Korean war vet) what the deal was with people 'burning their draft card'. He explained to me that this was a new thing. In the past; when your country called you up to go. You went, period; there was a lot of pressure to conform because only cowards didn't go.

Sure, you can sit in a high school classroom and determine that you wouldn't have gone; looking through the eyes of history. Knowing full well that there was a pardon for draft dodgers later; knowing that horrific things went on and our young soldiers did unthinkable things for the sake of survival. But not knowing, for certain, if not going would have put an impossible to reconcile gap between you and you parents, or your lifelong friends, or their parents, or the guy who owned the grocery store down the street. Without knowing that everyone you know and respect; would consider you a coward.

From where I sit (as a veteran with no combat experience) you're out of your league criticizing any Vietnam veteran; because at that time; it took balls to go and it took balls not to go. There wasn't the ball-less option you're claiming you would have taken.

It is disrespectful to sit here and be critical of the kind of sacrifice even desk jockey veterans have (or had) to endure. You leave your family, your friends, your support structure, and people yell at you all the time. They aren't yelling to thank you for your service; they're trying to train you to survive.

In the end you come out more of an adult.
Something you could stand to endure.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #132)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 03:25 PM

147. Jury rejected the alert on your post.

Thought you might want to know that 5 of 6 found the alert IMO to be an abuse of the jury system. People will always hate those who will not participate in war. I embrace their hate and stand against our military and those that participate in it as much as they hate me and think I should join and side with them. They are not going to dictate what murder is to me. Innocent children and people are just that and deserve to have more respect than to be called "bug splat" by those that participate in our military.

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Response to krawhitham (Reply #31)

Mon May 28, 2012, 03:37 PM

35. My brother is a bigger lib than I and I take offence to your disparaging comment

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Response to Veruca Salt (Reply #35)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:06 PM

48. Many veterans stick up for each other. With people like this (above poster) on our side

 

we can expect to lose some. Just like the racists on the right drive off minorities.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 03:23 PM

33. My father is a Vietnam Vet

volunteered when he was 17 years old and went into the Marines. They were treated like shit when they returned to the US. He keeps in contact with many of the vets and I would say majority of them will vote for Pres O. This poll is bullsh*t and Gallup has always favored repugs.

And the GOP knows that in truth that they are losing the presidential race, therefor, thats why there are so many suppression laws. Look at Florida.

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Response to Iliyah (Reply #33)

Tue May 29, 2012, 07:04 AM

85. For your dad - Semper Fi

Mr. pig enlisted at age 17, went to Nam and exactly as you stated, he was treated like crap when he came home. He's a hard-line Democrat and can't stand the Repuke hypocrisy.

I email him constantly with posts about Mittens, like his current thing about privatizing VA medical coverage. He lost much of his hearing flying 400 helicopter missions and was through the wall.

(I do this to piss him off - and then we have a hug and a glass of wine and watch "America's Got Talent).

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 03:51 PM

37. Since Bush's time, the Armed Forces Network have been showing Limbaugh. This probably helped to

brain-wash our troops.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 04:29 PM

38. The older veterans certainly will be voting for any Republican.

Remember, the silent generation is not the GI generation(which has mostly past).
Younger veterans and the active military is another matter.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 04:56 PM

39. Is Romney a chickenhawk?

I know he has never served a day of his life in the military but what exactly was his position regarding the Vietnam war?

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Response to BlueStater (Reply #39)

Thu May 31, 2012, 11:06 PM

107. He took part in a pro-draft rally during the Vietnam war.

Here are pics and the story: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/01/09/mitt-romney-took-part-in-a-pro-vietnam-draft-rally-image/

So yeah, he's a chickenhawk douchebag just like his worthless POS sons.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:20 PM

41. right--they asked 8 old white guys the question

that's how they got those numbers. I don't see anywhere in that article stating how many people were involved and what the margin of error was.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 05:40 PM

45. I am a vietnam veteran and some of the comments on this thread explain why the ones that vote Repub

 

do so. It's the loud, anti military big mouths that we would like think do not exist and do. While they are still with us we can expect to loose some. They were the ones throwing coke on us when we came back. Not the majority by any means, but loud and still manage to drive a significant number away whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

Calling them names will do NOTHING toward bringing them to our side and would most likely alienate those borderline. ESPECIALLY attacking on memorial day.

I do not give a damn who likes my comments, there will be some that come along and make my point.

Clinton also went a long way toward alienating SOME veterans. I voted for him, but things got much worse at the va under him than any other. It took me 2 years to get a specialist appt and then they were so short handed you may get it cancelled. Call me what you want, attack me, but it is true. It did not drive me to the republicans at all.

Here is an article from military times, paul got the most donations from active military so I question those stereotypical age comments. I also question that young military liberals would support paul. I think some of you are just using my generation as a skapegoat, it looks more like the younger guys supporting someone else.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/outside-the-wire/2012/05/15/the-veteran-vote-is-it-up-for-grabs/

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #45)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:49 PM

64. Welcome Home Brother

 

I too am a Vietnam Vet and I agree 100% with your post. I will be voting for Pres. Obama in Nov., especially after watching his speech at the Vietnam Memorial today.

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #64)

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:58 PM

66. Thank you my brother and welcome home to you.

 

Some of the people on our side sure make it hard to convince the rest (or those that need it) that we are not the party of veteran and military hate. I know some that read this forum and point to it. Maybe some day.

Best of luck to you.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 06:58 PM

56. A bunch of B.S.!

I am a Veteran and they didn't ask me???

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 08:25 PM

57. this thread should be locked

 

All the people spitting on vets on memorial day is just
well,
ignorant

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Response to may3rd (Reply #57)

Mon May 28, 2012, 08:52 PM

58. It is important to discuss why vets vote against their self-interest.

Although some of the comments may be harsh, there are some very thoughtful posts. I particularly appreciate the posts pointing out that the Gallup poll conflicts with another recent poll that shows vets favor Obama...which gives me hope for the future.

I care about our vets. I do not want vets to be killed in senseless wars, and have the ones who survive suffer from homelessness and lack of healthcare. If Romney gets in, the chance of use engaging in another useless war will go up, and the social services that support vets will go down. I don't want that to happen. I would like to know why vets support Romney so we can do something about it. You have to understand a problem before you can fix it.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 08:53 PM

59. It's Gallup:

Proceed accordingly.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon May 28, 2012, 11:41 PM

70. I always had a belief that the millitary brainwashes....

 

trainees to the right. That's why I don't like our military as it is.

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Response to Great Caesars Ghost (Reply #70)

Mon May 28, 2012, 11:54 PM

72. You are wrong. Obviously you have never trained in the military.

 

Want to know why it is? Because it's a volunteer military and liberals generally do not join. In a draft it's more of a mix, joiners are more to the right. I don't know why that's so hard to figure out. Most in the military are rural conservatives. Not all, but most. The democrats are mostly toward the conservative side. You see very few progressives/liberals joining. The people that went to canada to avoid the draft were not right wingers, libs tend to be more anti war.

I was drafted and stayed in 12 years. After the draft ended there werte far more conservatives.

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Response to expatriate2mex (Reply #72)

Tue May 29, 2012, 12:16 AM

75. It is changing, though...

The new military is young and very diverse. I would not be surprised if Obama actually won the votes of current active duty. But you're right about the old guard. They generally came from rural America where conservative values are at the heart of everything they've ever experienced in life - from school to church to work.

But from what I've gathered, while many active duty members are conservative, a lot are from inner-cities, or larger cities, ethnically not white (either Hispanic or black) and politically more progressive than a generation ago.

Then there are people like my grandfather and father. Granddad fought in World War II, stormed Utah Beach during the Normandy Invasion, came home and spent the next 30 years teaching at the junior high and high school level. He was a union man and a precinct captain for the local Democratic Party. He only voted Republican once - for Eisenhower during his first term (then flipped, oddly, to Stevenson four years later). I think, though, he was influenced by his mother, grandmother and aunt (his father bailed before he was born, so he was raised by three women).

My dad was a Democrat too. His last election, '08, he proudly voted Obama. Drove up to the VA all the time with an Obama sticker right on his back window just to grate the nerves of some of his fellow soldiers. Dad was a Screaming Eagle and served over in Vietnam.

So, they do exist. But yes, they're rare - not 20 points rare, though. The one thing I question about this poll is that. Obama lost the military vote by only 10 points in '08 - to a military hero - and I'm to believe he's trailing a chickenhawk like Romney, who never served, by 20 points? He's trailing - but not by 20.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #75)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:49 AM

84. I really respect your reasoned posts, Irishman

Robme is such a fraud. Mr. pig and I have both lost pensions due to his ilk.

My father and all four uncles (both sides of the family) served in WWII or Korea. The one surviving uncle is 91 and not well, but I'm sure he'd kick Robme's butt.

Has anyone detected any military service in the Romney family tree?

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Response to spiderpig (Reply #84)

Tue May 29, 2012, 02:07 PM

88. I went over it in another thread and I don't think so...

His father, nor his grandparents served in any wars from what I recall.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #75)

Tue May 29, 2012, 06:50 PM

89. Obama lost the active military vote by 6% last time.

He can very well win the majority this time.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Tue May 29, 2012, 08:16 PM

91. The reason is due to...

Commenders, who are usually wealthy, telling the troops stuff like Obama is not American or is a Communist sympathizer or whatever...If the troops actually knew it was the GOP who tried to cut their benefits during the height of the carnage in Iraq back in 2005 & 2006 & it took a threat of filibuster by the DEMOCRATS in order to get the minimum amount of money needed to fund the VA thing might change for some.

But lets be honest most troops are under educated many with GEDs they got simply due to heavy coaching by recruiters. I am a vet & I know even in the Air Force, the hardest branch to get in, there were folks who had great difficulty passing some of the very basic 8th grade level testing in boot camp!

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #91)

Wed May 30, 2012, 01:18 AM

93. So true. And so sad.

I have a father-in-law who is retired Air Force; he flew bombers in Vietnam. He is very right wing. Just today he sent me this hideous viral e-mail full of lies about how Obama disrespected Vietnam Veterans at the Memorial yesterday. I spent quite a bit of time responding to it point by point, exposing all the lies, complete with links to pictures and videos. (What do you think, should I post the exchange on DU?) Anway, I doubt it will change his mind, but I keep trying.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #93)

Wed May 30, 2012, 01:35 AM

94. Hard to believe that any VN vet could take issue with the President's Memorial Day address at the Wa

For me, and for other VN vets I've talked to about it (including some conservative vet friends), it was an excellent--and healing--speech.

Especially meaningful was hearing our President, in that place and on that day, tell us "Welcome home." That DID mean something.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #94)

Wed May 30, 2012, 10:28 AM

96. Wow. Thank you for your post.

It just brought tears to my eyes...the thought of all those vets, waiting decades, to be told "Welcome home."

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #94)

Thu May 31, 2012, 10:04 PM

99. Whats the story behind your username?

 

Was that your call sign in Nam? Were you the actual or did you hump the "Prick"?

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #99)

Thu May 31, 2012, 10:35 PM

102. That was my last callsign in-country, SGM

After we changed from the 'Six' system and began using random number designations (before that, I'd been my company's 'One-Six'). I was the actual, a draftee in '67 who'd ended up going through Infantry OCS at Benning in '68. At least I didn't have to hump the Prick-25.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #102)

Thu May 31, 2012, 10:59 PM

103. I kinda thought that.

 

Thanks. I hated that PRC-25, only had to carry it for about 5 weeks but I hated every minute of it.
Peace be with you brother.

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #103)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 03:34 AM

109. Love & Peace to you, too, brother

So you stayed in and retired as an E-9? Many here won't realize how impressive that is, but my hat's off to you.

We have a bunch of retired E-9s in my community. Mostly AF, because we're near Edwards AFB and and some big military contractors, but my favorite here is an Irish-American Army SGM-Ret. here who's the devil of the lot. I wouldn't be surprised if you know him, or at least know of him, in your circles.

In my case, JFK inspired me to "ask what you can do for your country," so I called up my draft board and asked them to take me (figuring that I could get out in only 2 if I didn't like the military, lol). OCS extended my commitment, and after I got hit in VN and had to spend 18 months hospitalized, that extended it further. I ended up retiring as a Captain for partial combat disability after 4 1/2 years in.

Welcome to DU, Sergeant Major! It's good to have you here. And be sure to check out our Veterans Group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1179

Welcome Home, Brother!

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #109)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 05:03 PM

111. Thank you for the warm welcome

 

After VN I seriously considered getting out after my enlistment ended but myself and my wife talked about it and we both agreed that I should go ahead and make a carreer of the Army. Have never regretted that decision and neither did my wife.

Just enjoying retirement now and enjoying life with the wife,

I'll definitely check out that forum.

Again thanks for the warm welcome.
Peace Brother.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #93)

Sat Jul 7, 2012, 05:18 AM

155. Yes, I too have a very Conservative father...

Who is a USAF Veteran & he too is extremely gullible to right wing talk radio & of course FOX "News"...I send him very detailed replies to his comments in the past & it does not matter. Anything they see in the press that does not agree with what he wish were true or what talk radio says then he claims the usual "Liberal Bias in the media".

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #91)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 11:08 PM

134. Same thing happened in the Civil War. Wealthy plantation owners and businessmen

 

told the poor whites that those "darkies" will be taking your jobs, raping your wives ( something they themselves were doing), they are animals,...just remember there were huge numbers of indentured servants who went to war for their evil employers.. at any rate it was the poor fighting the war for the wealthy mostly except for the brainwashed professional military officers trained at WPoint fighting for family honor.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Thu May 31, 2012, 10:07 PM

100. B.S!!!!

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Response to elleng (Reply #100)

Thu May 31, 2012, 10:12 PM

101. I'm with you

 

I just don't see vets, especially Iraq and Afghan vets voting for that chickenhawkshit asshat Romney.

How could any vet not vote for Pres. Obama after that awe inspiring speech at the Wall on Mon.

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Response to SGMRTDARMY (Reply #101)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 12:30 AM

108. They didn't hear that speech. They watch Fox.

My father-in-law, a Vietnam vet, and Fox viewer like all my in-laws, is constantly sending me these creepy anti-Obama viral e-mails, full of Fox talking points.

We've got to figure out a way to reach Fox viewers.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Thu May 31, 2012, 11:04 PM

105. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Hmmm...let's see. People who have taken to an authoritarian social structure with little tolerance for ambiguity or independent thought. I wonder which way they would vote. Duh.

J

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 07:23 AM

110. White vets vote Republican

this is not new info. Who cares? Ask what Romney is polling among Black people, among Latinos, among LGBT people. Answer, not very well.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Fri Jun 1, 2012, 05:30 PM

112. Are these self-identified "veterans"? The republican party seems to attract lots of liars

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Sun Jun 3, 2012, 09:28 PM

114. It's that "effing" mythical "Hippies Spitting on Returning Vets" Bull****

I don't know who the hell they are sampling, but I've been in the Navy for 28 years now, and the type of enlisted folks in the military are a majority of the demographic that traditionally supports Democrats.

I blame the "effing" media, and the myth of the Hippie Spitters. Unless they had passes to military bases, there is no way hippies were able to spit on, or call "baby killers" the over 95% of troops that returned to MILITARY BASES.

I've worked with people who know that the Democratic policies are the ones that help them the most, and are best for the nation, but they'll say; "I'll never forgive them for the way they treated our troops".

It's an entire cottage industry, and it's about as factual as the "liberal media"

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Response to maxrandb (Reply #114)

Sun Jun 3, 2012, 10:31 PM

115. Yes, I've always wondered about that one.

It's always reported as fact, but I have never seen any "hippies" on actual video doing such a thing. You'd think if this was such a prevalent thing, someone would have captured it on camera, you know, like how they captured tea baggers spitting on Congressman Lewis after healthcare reform was passed. But it has made it into a few movies, like Born on the 4th of July with Tom Cruise, as I recall. In my experience, spitting on people seems to be more of a right wing thing. Repukes like to accuse liberals of the crap they do themselves. It's a constant exercise in projection, like their claims of voter/election fraud.

The other, related, meme is this incessant harping about what Jane Fonda did, going to Vietnam during the war. My in-laws are always bring that up as proof that liberals are traitors.

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Response to SunSeeker (Reply #115)

Mon Jun 4, 2012, 09:41 AM

118. I used to piss off my Wingnut co-workers with this joke

Q: What's the difference between Jane Fonda and George Bush?

A: Jane Fonda went to Vietnam.

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Response to maxrandb (Reply #118)

Mon Jun 4, 2012, 09:47 PM

121. LOL. Works using Romney too.

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Response to maxrandb (Reply #114)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 01:57 PM

131. Goes right along with Reagan's Cadillac-driving welfare queen

...and the incubator babies.

A nation that will keep falling for shit like that does not deserve to survive.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Jun 4, 2012, 09:16 AM

117. So veterans are a small subgroup.

Can anyone say Venn Diagram?

Try overlaying all the other subgroups that Gallup supposedly polls.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Jun 4, 2012, 01:23 PM

119. Omg are they nuts?

It would be insanity if war monger Romney got in control of this place.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)


Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Tue Jun 5, 2012, 09:22 PM

124. I can only speak for my family.

My dad was a lifer who,traditionally,voted for The Republican candidate.He voted for Barack Obama in 2008,saying "I just can't go there anymore".

My son,3 X Iraq-War vet,is 100% behind Ron Paul...and ne'er the twain shall meet.Paullites will NOT vote for Romney.(As an aside,he IS joining IVAW...)

Most Viet Nam Vets I know vote on the Democratic ticket- they are either union members or teachers...and this is Red Texas we're talking about,friends.

WW2 vets- that's a different story....and the same goes for people who had Grandpa in WW2 but no current skin in the game.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Thu Jun 14, 2012, 01:34 PM

130. AKA: "Jews for Hitler" - n/t

 

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Wed Jul 4, 2012, 02:07 AM

133. Two words explain why Vets vote Republican

Cognitive dissonance. The more you invest, the more skin you have in the game, the harder it is to see, let alone admit when you are being fooled. Think Jim Jones and Jonestown. Vets put their life on the line, see good friends die terribly, see the carnage and horror of war up close and personal. Repugs are all about patriotism, about our country right or wrong, about the glory of America and tell them what they want to hear, what they wish were true. Dems not so much.

Vietnam Vets think of the Democratic Party and think of Jane Fonda, The Chicago Eight, the antiwar movement that called out the truth that we didn't belong there that the war wasn't worth a single dead American, let alone the 60,000 that did. The vets knew it was true but for many it hurt too much to accept. Gulf War vets remember how they were psyched up and ready to face biological and chemical weapons to take out the evil Saddam, and then watched Republican leaders let him off the hook after devastating his country and killing God knows how many people. For what? For Kuwaiti's? Most Gulf War vets know they were lied to and used. But republicans tell them they did the right thing there too. Repugs keep a simple message while the Dems cloud it up with uncomfortable facts and different perspectives.

The military instills xenophobia, group think, respect for authority and discourages challenging that authority. Which party best embodies those values?

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 01:37 PM

135. The military still leans Right

Nothing new here.

It's really sad since Republicans treat them like trash and have them thrown out into the street.

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Response to ilikeitthatway (Reply #135)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 10:51 AM

144. Agree that the military leans right...

... to the point that it will be their downfall.

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Response to ananda (Reply #144)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 02:22 PM

146. They've got the weapons and the tax bucks

it will be OUR downfall, not theirs.

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Response to FiveGoodMen (Reply #146)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 03:29 PM

148. tax bucks = my money going for what I hate.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #148)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 04:08 PM

149. Agreed!

So very agreed.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 01:48 PM

136. Not Surprising

 

Not at all surprising more military supports Romney than Obama. The military has traditionally been more conservative than liberal.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Thu Jul 5, 2012, 04:15 PM

137. what is the gender and ethnic breakdown of that group? demographically probably match

overall Americans that will vote for Romney

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 08:51 AM

140. My Vet cousin keeps spamming FB with "Obama wants to cut our pay" BS.

The sad this his that he voted for Obama in '08, before he was deployed. They must have brainwashed him while he was in Iraq because he came back a RW asshole.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Fri Jul 6, 2012, 11:25 PM

151. Why would you post a discredited poll from 5 weeks ago?

Veterans are somewhere between +5% for Romney and +5% for Obama.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #151)

Sat Jul 7, 2012, 01:47 AM

152. I wouldn't. It was current when I posted 5 weeks ago.

Check the date on my post. Gallup released the poll on May 28, the same day I posted it in Breaking News--because at the time it was breaking news. If you have a more current poll, please provide a link. I would love to see a poll that is +5 for Obama.

And other than it being a Gallup poll, which I understand skews right, do you have any links for it being discredited?

I'm not trying to stir up controversy, I'm just trying to figure this out. It really bugs me that soldiers who have been most hurt by Republican policies still favor Republicans.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #151)

Mon Jul 9, 2012, 07:08 AM

162. Why would you make an accuation without bothering to check?

The date of the post is right up top.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Sat Jul 7, 2012, 02:36 AM

153. Not This Veteran

I'd be really surprised if the veterans I see at the VA Hospital break so heavily in favor of Romney. Of course, it's a big country, and there are a lot of veterans.

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Response to SunSeeker (Original post)

Mon Jul 9, 2012, 12:44 AM

160. Considering who's in the military, I'm not that surprised

Military service appeals to conservatives more than it does to liberals.

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