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Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 03:42 AM Feb 2017

As a retired Military Officer, if Michael Flynn is guilty of Espionage (for Russia) would the UCMJ..

as per Article 2 and Court Martial and the sentence of Death be applicable?

I believe that as a retired General receiving a retirement pension, that he qualifies under its jurisdiction. I am also going to go on a gut feeling here: that Michael Flynn has long been a mole for Russia and was directly involved and coordinating for the Trump campaign with Russia and the military and intelligence community have been spying on him for well over a year. I believe it's very possible that the intelligence community has known and been recording and watching him for awhile and they also were waiting to release and reveal this after Trump had in fact rescinded sanctions on Russia. The Trump administration did this last week when he rescinded the sanctions put in place by Obama that allowed transactions with the FSB.

If my hunch is correct, then I believe that Michael Flynn and many others are about to be charged. And I believe he faces court martial and death penalty. And I believe to spare his life, he will cooperate and testify about the involvement of Trump, Manacort, and even Pence....

Just my sense of where this is all headed....

This is really possibly the biggest scandal and story in US History about to unfold...

45 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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As a retired Military Officer, if Michael Flynn is guilty of Espionage (for Russia) would the UCMJ.. (Original Post) Pachamama Feb 2017 OP
I totally agree with you. I would add McConnell and Paul Ryan underthematrix Feb 2017 #1
Even if he were technically eligible... butdiduvote Feb 2017 #2
As a military officer and receiving retirement pay (in terms of jurisdiction) of the military court Pachamama Feb 2017 #5
The Rosenbergs exboyfil Feb 2017 #6
Can you recall a bigger act of treason in the last two hundred years? He colluded with Russia Squinch Feb 2017 #10
Rosenbergs executed for espionage for Russia lostnfound Feb 2017 #11
Yes. we can do it Feb 2017 #28
They can use the threat... Cracklin Charlie Feb 2017 #34
Great post Frogg Feb 2017 #3
How would he stop a crime before it's committed? Cracklin Charlie Feb 2017 #35
If what you're saying is true madokie Feb 2017 #4
He won't be court marshalled Sgent Feb 2017 #7
I agree with you. It will never happen. pangaia Feb 2017 #31
Suspect you have Dan Feb 2017 #37
Nope, never been in the military. Does it show. :))) pangaia Feb 2017 #38
Here's Article 106(a), the Espionage article jmowreader Feb 2017 #8
Paragraph (3) jmg257 Feb 2017 #13
Yep malaise Feb 2017 #9
Congressman Adam Schiff said on Rachel Maddow last night: "Stepping down from office will be the Pachamama Feb 2017 #21
+1,000 malaise Feb 2017 #36
Would this be "espionage"? Or merely "schmoozing"? JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2017 #12
This discussion isn't a debate of the death penalty - I too am an opponent of the death penalty. Pachamama Feb 2017 #16
Agree, this was more than "schmoozing", ... JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2017 #18
It's legally being called "Counter Intelligence". That is spying. It's espionage. KittyWampus Feb 2017 #19
Exactly - I was just about to suggest people read up on the definition of espionage in US Law Pachamama Feb 2017 #20
You also have to factor the way the military and intelligent agencies thnks Dan Feb 2017 #43
The impact from a military and security perspective is far greater than we know Pachamama Feb 2017 #44
The thing to do would be to find out this: "(a)(1) Any person subject to this chapter who"... jmg257 Feb 2017 #14
Spoke this morning to a family member who is a retired officer and not only could he be called up Pachamama Feb 2017 #15
Thanks! Lots of good info. jmg257 Feb 2017 #17
A thought just occured to me mercuryblues Feb 2017 #22
It must be a very uncomfortable weekend down at Mar a lago - perhaps Prime Minister Abe will inspire Pachamama Feb 2017 #23
He'll probably flee home to Russia and become Pootie's BFF. Vinca Feb 2017 #24
Lord, this is scary Corgigal Feb 2017 #25
I hope so anarch Feb 2017 #26
I hope you are right. appleannie1943 Feb 2017 #27
Why in the world would an army general turn traitor? vlyons Feb 2017 #29
Money is almost always reason. Bribery or threats another. Philosophical and political differences. Pachamama Feb 2017 #40
Good points all vlyons Feb 2017 #42
He was the Director of the Defense Intel. Agency, dgibby Feb 2017 #41
Also Pence, Trump also. they knew benld74 Feb 2017 #30
Wow orangecrush Feb 2017 #32
Death penalty possible for "Causing grave risk or subtantial damage to national security" ElementaryPenguin Feb 2017 #33
So I was just checking Malcolm Nance's twitter acct, and find this - ? Rybolovlev a Russian bagman? Leghorn21 Feb 2017 #39
knr triron Feb 2017 #45

butdiduvote

(284 posts)
2. Even if he were technically eligible...
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 03:51 AM
Feb 2017

...would they REALLY sentence him to death over this? I've never heard of someone getting the death penalty except for murder.

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
5. As a military officer and receiving retirement pay (in terms of jurisdiction) of the military court
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 04:20 AM
Feb 2017

That he can be charged with court martial and the crime of Espionage against our Nation and I believe the penalty of death is what exists for espionage and has never been changed.

If we have any JAGs here on DU, I would love to have their knowledge on this matter.

Squinch

(50,955 posts)
10. Can you recall a bigger act of treason in the last two hundred years? He colluded with Russia
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 08:57 AM
Feb 2017

to invalidate America's election process and install a Russian puppet as president.

I don't believe in the death penalty, and I don't wish for more than a life sentence for the man, but the penalty for treason is death.

Frogg

(365 posts)
3. Great post
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 03:52 AM
Feb 2017

I don't believe this is going to go away. People seem to think it is possible to completely silence an entire Intelligence community. I believe Obama knew a great deal about this story but he was at a disadvantage during the transition. But I think there are enough informed operatives in place who are not going to lie and cover up this story but who have always been in place to leak. Think about what we are talking about here...a Russian mole has been placed in the WH. It will not stand.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
4. If what you're saying is true
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 04:00 AM
Feb 2017

I'd say he'll have an incidence that will render him no longer a threat to the powers to be

I wouldn't want to be him is all I know for sure

Sgent

(5,857 posts)
7. He won't be court marshalled
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 05:49 AM
Feb 2017

the US has never court marshaled a general officer, I don't see it starting now.

Dan

(3,570 posts)
37. Suspect you have
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 06:12 PM
Feb 2017

Never been in the military. This isn't a groping issue, or some sexual issue.... the military has little to no damn sense of humor over issues like treason. Now, he might end up having a car accident or a unknown heart defect that kisses his ass good bye. But if the case can be made for treason, the military will have no sense of humor. Having said that, if there is a chance of charges, he might decide to opt out.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
38. Nope, never been in the military. Does it show. :)))
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 06:20 PM
Feb 2017


In spite of all the research I do and find.. a lot of it here...it is hard for someone like me, way down the food chain, to know what is what..

jmowreader

(50,560 posts)
8. Here's Article 106(a), the Espionage article
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 06:14 AM
Feb 2017
http://www.ucmj.us/sub-chapter-10-punitive-articles/906a-article-106a-espionage

(a) (1) Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any entity described in paragraph (2), either directly or indirectly, any thing described in paragraph (3) shall be punished as a court-martial may direct, except that if the accused is found guilty of an offense that directly concerns (A) nuclear weaponry, military spacecraft or satellites, early warning systems, or other means of defense or retaliation against large scale attack, (B) war plans, (C) communications intelligence or cryptographic information, or (D) any other major weapons system or major element of defense strategy, the accused shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court- martial may direct.


Two-part answer:

Helping to throw an election doesn't fall into any of the Special Circumstances that'd justify the death penalty. They could conceivably throw him in Leavenworth for life, but they probably wouldn't go that high...ten years and a $250,000 fine would be more like it, but I'd settle for a $10,000 fine if we could get him to roll over on Trump and Pence. (No need with Manacort; they're already working on him.)

Given that, unless they could prove he was on active duty at any time when he was working with Russia they'd handle this through the civilian courts. To court-martial a retiree they'd have to reactivate him first. The espionage laws in this country are no joke; whether he was tried in the civilian courts or the military courts he's still sure to be making license plates for a good long while.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
13. Paragraph (3)
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 11:23 AM
Feb 2017
(3) A thing refereed to in paragraph (1) is a document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance or information relating to the national defense.



Does conversation(s) about sanctions constitute information relating to national defense?

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
21. Congressman Adam Schiff said on Rachel Maddow last night: "Stepping down from office will be the
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 03:43 PM
Feb 2017

....least of the worries of Trump Administration Officials"



Congressman Schiff and many other members of Congress on both sides of aisle know that the shit is coming....

I hope any of the members of congress that knowlingly colluded with them or pretended and ignored will also be losing their jobs and more....

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,350 posts)
12. Would this be "espionage"? Or merely "schmoozing"?
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 11:11 AM
Feb 2017

I don't think the death penalty would apply if he wan't passing secrets to an enemy.

But, I'm prejudiced: I am against any use of the death penalty.

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
16. This discussion isn't a debate of the death penalty - I too am an opponent of the death penalty.
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 11:59 AM
Feb 2017

This discussion is whether or not if Michael Flynn could be court martialed under the Uniform Code of Military Justice and be charged with espionage and if so, the penalty as prescribed in the UCMJ is the death penalty.

This was not a case of "schmoozing" as you asked above....

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,350 posts)
18. Agree, this was more than "schmoozing", ...
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 02:31 PM
Feb 2017

... but I don't think it rises to the level of "espionage".

I don't think he could get "death". Heck, I don't even think he'll lose his military retirement benefits. But, it could and should at least cost him the security clearance necessary to hold any high office.

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
20. Exactly - I was just about to suggest people read up on the definition of espionage in US Law
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 03:04 PM
Feb 2017

...and this description of counter-intelligence and description of its value to the security of our nation and conveying it to another nation, especially one that is regularly engaged in confrontational nature with US and even an enemy of our NATO allies is seen under the definition as "espionage".

Remember - in December, when Michael Flynn did these texts and calls with the Russian Ambassador, he was a retired general and was speaking directly to a foreign nation, arguably enemy, about taking back national security decisions that the POTUS Obama had just announced where they were giving notice to deportation of Russian spies and diplomats and also sanctions to the Russian intelligence FSB. This is a big deal. Especially since in less than two weeks of Trump's swearing in, he issued an executive order rescinding those very same sanctions that the President Obama had announced due to what Russia was doing in hacking and other activities.

But you know what I really want to know? Is what was discussed during the campaign before the election in communications between Flynn and the Russians. And who else knew.



I believe that Michael Flynn and more than several others, conspired and are guilty of espionage and treason and will be eventually revealed and charged.

I am also starting to smell impeachment in the air....it may be faint, but it's there....

Dan

(3,570 posts)
43. You also have to factor the way the military and intelligent agencies thnks
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 09:56 PM
Feb 2017

Has his actions done anything to impact the security of the nation; has his actions put any military personnel (ours or our allies) at risk? Then let's have some fun... what does 'impact the security of the nation' mean? A broad or narrow definition.

Plus, are we dealing with other people (conspiracy within the nation) and the security levels/ exposure of national secrets to a foreign enemy by the the people involved.

Kicking the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff of the Military Security Council so that you can insert a Steven Bannon (White Nationalist) (with the stated goals of bringing down the establishment, potentially also wanting to promote a war with another foreign power - so that he can bring about a new world order) - probably will not make the military/intelligence/security organizations feel all fuzzy.

Now, our political leaders (even those that are currently helping the Trump administration) will be seeking to cover their asses - so they will be the first to scream for vengeance.

But ultimately, it will depend to a large degree on the people of the U.S. How many families have lost relatives (just in my life time) fighting proxy wars, etc. for our national security? Even the red-states might not embrace treason regardless of how much they love and admire Trump. If these allegations become real, confirmed and start to attract the attention (such as Watergate did at the end), there will be hell to pay, for everyone identified as a participant in sharing information (actively - by action; or via misprision of a felony (knowledge of without telling) will be at risk for charges.

Based on what has been revealed - you cannot take the death penalty off the table - you have to know the scope of damage that the nation has been exposed to - via the actions of the parties involved. What I find incredible (something that I read a few days ago, I wish I knew where) that the White House is talking to Russia and they are turning off the recording equipment.

This is a mess - my thoughts.

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
44. The impact from a military and security perspective is far greater than we know
Sun Feb 12, 2017, 02:43 PM
Feb 2017

I agree with all the points you just made...and I forgot about the removal by Trump of the role of the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff as a full participating member on the security council and substituted by Bannon, only serves as another example of where the military has concerns.

The reason going back to why I believe with General Michael Flynn being at risk of court martial and the seriousness of all the matters and the jurisdiction of the military court.

PS: heard that too about the White House turning of recording device when Trump talked to Russia. But I am pretty certain there are recording devices they don't know exist and can turn off, along with human witnesses.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
14. The thing to do would be to find out this: "(a)(1) Any person subject to this chapter who"...
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 11:34 AM
Feb 2017

WHO is subject to "this chapter"?

IF this is it (I can't tell), sure seems it...

802. ARTICLE 2. PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER
by admin on Jul.21, 2010, under 01. General Provisions
(a) The following persons are subject to this chapter:
(1) Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it.
(2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipman.
(3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service.
(4) Retired members of a regular component of the armed forces who are entitled to pay.
(5) Retired members of a reserve component who are receiving hospitalization from an armed force.
(6) Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve.
...

http://www.ucmj.us/category/sub-chapter-1-general-provisions


AND of course did he commit espionage? Not so clear...

906a. ARTICLE 106a. ESPIONAGE
10. Punitive Articles
(a) (1) Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign nation, communicates, delivers, or transmits, or attempts to communicate, deliver, or transmit, to any entity described in paragraph (2), either directly or indirectly, any thing described in paragraph (3)...
...(3) A thing refereed to in paragraph (1) is a document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, note, instrument, appliance or information relating to the national defense.

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
15. Spoke this morning to a family member who is a retired officer and not only could he be called up
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 11:54 AM
Feb 2017

...in time of a war out of retirement, but his retirement pension he said is actually defined as receiving pay and he said that he was quite certain that this as an officer would under the UCMJ qualify Mike Flynn as being under the jurisdiction of the Military Court and could be court martialed.

And yes, even the communication of information to the enemy about things that could relate to national defense, could be seen as a violation of the definition under espionage. He also pointed out that Russian Spies were expelled out of our country in December 2016 by the Obama Administration and the sanctions put in place involved the FSB, Russia's spy apparatus. Mike Flynn would have been communicating with the Russians in this case about something involving National Defemse.

Those sanctions against the FSB were just lifted per Trumps executive order last week.



PS: My Stepfather is a retired Lt. Colonel. He is also a lifelong Republican. Served in Vietnam. Lived through Cold War in Military. Stationed later in Europe. Worked on NATO related activities. He is outraged and disgusted and hopes Michael Flynn if this is all true is court martialed and charged with espionage - the greatest crime committed by an American soldier against his Nation. He said he sees Michael Flynn as possibly being guilty of trying to overthrow his nation if he also worked with the Russians during the campaign to throw it to Trump.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
17. Thanks! Lots of good info.
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 12:02 PM
Feb 2017

This retired Lt. General agrees too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028630809

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/02/maybe-he-had-a-case-of-the-dumbas-ret-army-gen-slams-flynn-for-thinking-hes-above-the-law/

Retired Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling is not happy with Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn in President Donald Trump’s White House.
Reports surfaced late Thursday that confirm previous allegations that Flynn previously spoke with Russian officials before taking office. Doing so broke several laws.

mercuryblues

(14,532 posts)
22. A thought just occured to me
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 04:52 PM
Feb 2017

When Flynn finds out just how much the CIA and FBI have on him, will he confess to all and commit suicide?

Will he be Lieutenant Colonel Markinson from A Few Good Men?

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
23. It must be a very uncomfortable weekend down at Mar a lago - perhaps Prime Minister Abe will inspire
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 04:57 PM
Feb 2017

...the Japanese honor method?

I believe Moscow Mike will do this or it will "look like he did" to protect Mother Russia and Comrade Trumpsky....

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
29. Why in the world would an army general turn traitor?
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 05:11 PM
Feb 2017

Help me to understand this. It's a serious question. We know that FBI agent Hanson spied for the Russians for money and for the arrogant pleasure of proving to himself that he was smarter than everyone else in the FBI. But an army general? Surely Maddis will kick his butt around the parade ground a few times.

If he's convicted of treason, the firing squad is way too good for him. Locked in a solitary cell 23 hrs a day for the rest of his life seems about right. Give him plenty of time to contemplate his treason, as he stares at the wall all day.

Pachamama

(16,887 posts)
40. Money is almost always reason. Bribery or threats another. Philosophical and political differences.
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 06:38 PM
Feb 2017

Fanaticism. Mental illness...

I can think of many reasons people spy and betray their nation. Even historically, why an officer like Benedict Arnold would be a traitor, albeit he saw Britain as his Nation. There are many reasons what and why people who seemingly could or should never become a traitor or spy do. I think there are many things about Michael Flynn that we don't know all the details about, including for example why a lifelong democrat general was removed from Obamas military council and what then motivated him to work for RT and then campaign for Trump and then surround himself by people like Bannon, a White Nationalist, why we see the bizarre conspiracy theories from him and even from his son and "Pizza gate"?

I suggest that some where along the line this "General" got "radicalized" and whatever that radical and extreme viewpoint was, led him on this path to betray the United States. He is likely also a Narcisstic Sociopath like Trump and Bannon and many of these others who believe their "truths" and that only they can "save America" from itself. They see themselves as Patriots when really they are Traitors and Enemies of the State and our Constitution.

vlyons

(10,252 posts)
42. Good points all
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 06:58 PM
Feb 2017

I read somewhere that he had low social skills and pissed off and caused stress and division as commander. Did not engender loyalty.

dgibby

(9,474 posts)
41. He was the Director of the Defense Intel. Agency,
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 06:55 PM
Feb 2017

but "did not play well with others" and was offered a chance to retire from the position a year earlier than his tour of duty would have ended. That's military speak for "being kicked to the curb". In other words,I suspect he was given the opportunity to retire rather than be fired. No doubt that caused some seriously hard feelings. Added to the fact that he seems to be a fan of conspiracy theories, it's a perfect set up for "getting even". Just my opinion, of course, but it makes sense.

ElementaryPenguin

(7,800 posts)
33. Death penalty possible for "Causing grave risk or subtantial damage to national security"
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 05:21 PM
Feb 2017

Conspiring with a hostile foreign power to insert a treasonous President that is beholden to that foreign power...

Sounds like Flynn could seriously be a death penalty candidate.

I agree that he could well be offered to sing like a bird to spare his life.

Leghorn21

(13,524 posts)
39. So I was just checking Malcolm Nance's twitter acct, and find this - ? Rybolovlev a Russian bagman?
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 06:29 PM
Feb 2017

Enter a topic, @name, or fullname
♨️Saucy Stacey♨️
@DrCrane72
4h
@RejectTrump @realDonaldTrump We also want to know why Rybolovev's #MKATE is in West Palm Beach! #PutinGate twitter.com/LouiseMensch/s…
View conversation ·

Jesse Herro
@_zeitgeist
4h
@greenleafjenjen @LouiseMensch And not just any RU jet, but #MKATE, owned by a Mr. Rybolovlev. Also seen at a number of Trump campaign stops
View conversation ·

♨️Saucy Stacey♨️
@DrCrane72
4h
@realDonaldTrump Why is Dimitry Rybolovev's #MKATE in West Palm Beach? #Flynn #PutinGate #WilburRoss
View conversation ·

Louise Mensch
@LouiseMensch
5h
So Dimitry Rybolovev and which FSB spies flew to Miami to meet Trump and #MoscowMike today as Trump spits in Pence's face? #MKATE
View details ·

JeffRunnels
@jarvik7
4h
Media Cut off likely due to Dmitry Rybolovlev being there too. #TrumpTreason #MKATE twitter.com/EricLiptonNYT/…

----------

I don't know what any of this means, but the sequence I followed was a tweet on Nance's
page from Louise Mensch, which led to MKATE:

Nance:

https://mobile.twitter.com/MalcolmNance

Louise Mensch:

https://mobile.twitter.com/LouiseMensch?p=s

MKATE:

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/MKATE?src=hash

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