I am amazed - really quite amazed - at some of the Brexit opinions I am reading here on DU

[Stinky The Clown]

In line with the new rules I will neither point out posts or posters, or even some of the drivel as that would connect it back to a post or poster.

People, do some research. See who backed the LEAVE vote. This wasn't about democracy or the will of the people. The people, it turns out, were far too ignorant to even know what they were voting for. They were sucked in by xenophobia, racism, and, as we hear in our own presidential campaign, taking their country back.

Here's the thing about "populism" . . . it is an easy sell. People who understand what the salesman is actually saying, and agree with it, will buy what's being sold. That's the good part and usually accounts for most of the sales. The bad part is that it is easy to sell the same product to the ignorant fucks who are too stupid or lazy to find out what the salesman is selling. Sell to enough ignorant fucks, add that to the informed buyers, and the product is sold enough to make a profit - or win a vote.

That's what happened with the Brexit vote. Too many lazy or ignorant fucks bought the right wing shit that was being sold. It was pure democracy at its very worst. The sort of democracy that brings demagogues and strongmen to power.

And if you think this was a vote against the elites, think again. Not all elites are made the same. One set of elites lost yesterday, but rest assured, a very different set of elites won. The losers were . . . . . guess who.

So please, do some research before you extoll the glory of the Brexit vote.

[PSPS]

1. Yes, what you're espousing seems to be the officially-approved interpretation.

I don't buy it, though. The EU merely imposes a federal governing system on its member countries. The problem, of course, is that the governing body in Brussels isn't elected which, if it were, would make a big difference.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. what do you mean by officially endorsed? if you mean historically accurate then you are right

if not, you are wrong.

[yardwork]

8. Which officials approved the interpretation?

Link?

[Surya Gayatri]

15. YOU ARE SO WRONG. "the governing body in Brussels isn't elected..."

The proportional European Parliament, which convenes in Strasbourg, is directly elected in each member country.

You need to update your data set.

[Surya Gayatri]

66. It is a supra-national body. It can and does study, approve

Last edited Sat Jun 25, 2016, 02:38 PM - Edit history (1)

and sign off on legislation, which is then forwarded to Brussels for implementation.

Just as in a presidential system of government, the proposed legislation sometimes originates in Brussels (vaguely comparable to the White House) and sometimes it originates in the Parliament (a weaker version of Congress).

[Surya Gayatri]

81. There are channels for Parliamentary proposals to be presented to Brussels for study and approval.

True enough that any legislation brought before the body for a final vote must have been signed off on by Brussels upstream.

[OrwellwasRight]

213. MEPs cannot introduce legislation.

Legislation comes from the unelected Commission. The European Parliament can reject it, but it cannot draft its own legislation. MEPs can draft resolutions and reports, as I understand it, but resolutions and reports do not have the force of law.

This is not consistent with real democratic principals.

[Surya Gayatri]

231. See here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027954279#post81

[OrwellwasRight]

241. I'm sorry

But I take the word of my friends who work in the European Parliament regarding the powers of MEPs over a link to an unrelated Stinky the Clown post. But your implication was received loud and clear. Offense taken.

[scscholar]

227. How is elected by each country not elected?

You have a very strange definition of elected.

[Surya Gayatri]

232. The post with the quote "the governing body in Brussels isn't elected..." was hidden.

I was refuting that post and that quote.

Direct votes are held in all EU member countries to elect proportionally allocated MEPs, who are then convened at the beautiful European Parliament headquarters in Strasbourg, France, right on the banks of the Rhein.

[Odin2005]

43. This is a good example of the point I made below.

Dismissing arguments as the "officially-approved interpretation" sets one on the road to the sort of conspiracy-based thinking where everyone who disagrees with you is just "brainwashed by The Man".

[Metric System]

129. Your argument would make more sense if the UK didn't have the unelected House of Lords.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

140. People were saying they didn't trust "experts" and trusted this Trump-like politician. Sort of like

our "climate-change" doubters who don't trust the scientists.

[truebrit71]

221. I think you're confusing that with the real unelected body known as the House of Lords...

...but that one is fine, apparently, because it's British...

MEP's are elected. The "governing body" is not autonomous, and cannot pass legislation by itself.

That is a common fallacy used by the liars in the Leave campaign.

[HuckleB]

2. "Living in the Age of Stupid: How to comprehend Brexit, Trump and the Anti’s"

https://risk-monger.com/2016/06/25/living-in-the-age-of-stupid-how-to-comprehend-brexit-trump-and-the-antis/

This piece cuts to the chase on what's happening to our world, all too well.

[flying rabbit]

26. Good read.

thanks for posting.

[mobeau69]

194. Yes, it is.

"The Irony of Democracy" explains why The Founding Fathers actually had a fear of direct democracy. The masses are asses and trump is playing these fools like a fiddle. It's sad and scary and if he and they are not stopped we are all in big trouble and this "democracy's" days, I fear, are numbered.

[treestar]

70. good article

you can see how the social media allows people to believe what they want to believe.

[HuckleB]

87. Indeed. Our education system has to adjust in some way.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

195. That's exactly the type of voters

we have a majority of in this country and we call it public opinion.

[greiner3]

197. "...type of voters..."

And some posters as the OP mentioned

[sarae]

146. Interesting read, thanks for the link.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

198. +1000 nt

[yeoman6987]

3. You are right but all of this is irrelevant. It's done.

All the knashing of teeth will still result in the UK out of the EU. The world will continue.

[GoneOffShore]

10. And Great Britain will shrink down to Little England.

The tech companies are already contemplating moves, the pound is plummeting, the stock market in the US lost 600 points yesterday.

Yep, the world will continue, but England will be England.

Flanders and Swann had a song that totally fits the Leave folks about this back in the 1960's

There's a bit of a monolog at the beginning but worth listening to:

[Stonepounder]

13. Totally off topic but ... I absolutely LOVE Swan & Flanders!! n/t

[thucythucy]

97. Also off topic, but an interesting side note:

the first Flanders and Swann albums were produced by none other than George Martin, who would go on to have some modest success with another English combo (the Beatles).

I love their song about pollution (can't remember the name), and also "20 Tons of TNT" about the nuclear arms race.

Also--and this is so cool--they are one of the first (if not THE first) successful comedy acts to include a wheelchair user as comedian. They do an incredible bit about access (or lack there of) at airports. "By Air" I think it's called.

[GoneOffShore]

125. My ex wife introduced me to them soon after we met.

I still have the vinyl albums At The Drop of A Hat, and At The Drop of Another Hat. Regretfully I don't have Bestiary of Flanders and Swann.

Fell in love with their stuff the first time I heard it.
Always a lot of fun.

Donald Swann also wrote liturgical music and was a CO during the war. Here's his Wikipedia entry - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Swann

Flanders contracted polio(pre Salk vaccine) when he was in the Royal Navy and hence was in a wheelchair the rest of his life.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Flanders

[thucythucy]

255. This is ironic,

seeing as how it's now the Brits who are calling it a day and taking their toys home with them.

Great stuff.

[yeoman6987]

22. It's been 30 hours. Let's talk next week.

I'd say we will see gains in the stock market next week.

[ToxMarz]

76. I'd say we'll see rain next week

How vague and yet still prescient. Trump predicts there will be another terrorist attack. If he's right, then I guess he should be elected.

[philosslayer]

175. In 1945, Germany was a hollow shell

Millions of its citizens were dead, and additional millions were homeless. They were utterly defeated both physically and psychologically.

Today, Germany effectively rules Europe.

England was great before the EU. And the challenges it faces today don't compare in any way to what Germany faced in the post war era.

England will be fine.

[GoneOffShore]

185. I do hope you are correct, but with the rise of Farage and Johnson,

I'm not so sure.

They are modern day Moselys.

[Helen Borg]

191. Ukip is done though

They got the vote. Mission accomplished. Now they can disband.

[GoneOffShore]

239. They probably won't though.

The racists have found a home, platform and a network of fellow travelers from the remains of the BNP.

[libdem4life]

230. They had lots of help from other countries to rebuild...mostly US.

Not so sure even the Europeans are excited about getting behind this. It's always been an angsty relationship and the Brits aren't known for their humility. I'm wondering who needs who the most...the EU or the UK.

It has brought to the fore a number of issues with the EU in Brussels.

[Surya Gayatri]

48. It's anything but "done". The fallout has not even begun.

[greiner3]

200. Scotland is making noise about another referendum to leave UK

One more reason for people to vote Trump, world markets falling, dogs and cats together (well, last one from Ghostbusters) but yes, the world goes on.

[7962]

228. They should be careful; oil is low & they get a lot from England.

They vote to break off & they'll see a lot of subsidies go away as well

[DirkGently]

4. Tend to agree. But there is more going on as well.

It sure looks like nationalism and xenophobia carried the day -- European NeoNazis and fascists seem thrilled. Doesn't mean there isn't a kernel of righteous fury at oligarchy in there as well though.

I think there's a danger whenever the population senses establishment forces have run amok that popular anger is directed not at the problems in the establishment itself, but at the usual bogeymen of the uninformed -- groups of people outside the traditional culture.

Putin is selling homophobia to distract from the kleptocracy he's running. Trump soothes the fearful by promising to build a wall.

Meanwhile, the TPP sails blithely forward, and U.S. banks look for the next speculative bubble they can use to transfer the remaining scraps of middle class wealth into their bulging pockets.

Everyone seems to recognize we need change; no one can agree on what that needs to look like.

[mdbl]

25. Agreed. They threw caution to the wind

hoping something good comes of it but have no idea how that will happen. Democracy is supposed to be there so changes can happen from the ground up. Brits didn't even try to get a new plan first, which is pretty irresponsible. Of course, they are all blaming it all on Cameron now for even bringing the vote up.

[brush]

80. Buyers' remorse is setting in. Cameron foolishly set the referendum as a simple majority . . .

instead of a 2/3 majority because he thought it would never pass.

He screwed up.

[Rex]

84. Cameron is done, stick a fork in him.

WTF was he thinking?

[uponit7771]

89. +1

[DirkGently]

108. Didn't he pull the same bluff with Scotland?

"I'll resign if they vote to pull out of the U.K."

And they very nearly did. Escaped by the skin of his teeth, then decides to roll the dice again?

Who was advising this guy?

[Rex]

118. Yes, the guy is an idiot.

I am baffled by the fact this ever made it out of committee. So much for his career, I don't think he will survive this politically.

[Surya Gayatri]

141. Not only will he not survive, he will be reviled as the incompetent jackass who

enabled the disintegration of the United Kingdom and who sparked the unraveling of the European Union.

[Stinky The Clown]

143. I agree. A total idiot.

[JonLeibowitz]

121. Perhaps what Jim Messina, political advisor to Cameron and Hillary superPAC co-chair told him

Just a thought.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. The tools available to the general public are votes, torches or pitchforks. n/t

[suffragette]

63. Completely agree, dirk. More going on in post Brexit manipulation as well.

Doing some digging here about the Brexit vote poll that's circulating and the background and intentions of the pollster.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027952015#post48

[ancianita]

100. Could you perhaps summarize what the problems are in the establishment itself?

Are they the same problems as those in the US establishment? Do both countries' establishments' communicate and do business with each other? Create the same problems with their respective general worker populations?

Are there definable sub-groups one can include in the circle of power called the establishment?

I want to know how any voters of either country can force their respective, dispersed and inaccessible establishment to deal with its own problems when voters get almost no representation before the establishment but their own votes, or bodies, or voices -- none of which are not regularly heard.

In the US it's been proven that public polls that voice majority opinion have been routinely ignored across four presidencies in this country. Were those administrations part of the establishment?

No one can agree what change looks like because the people who need it do not have their hands on the levers of change nor their voices in the halls of lawmaking or in capitalist boardrooms -- nor do they know who make up the establishment.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

5. i know. so many dumb and informed posts backing xenophobia and other far right values

so dumb. so fucking dumb.

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. There are an awful lot of amazingly ignorant people with opinions, yes

as someone who lives in the UK it's kind of maddening to read all the incredibly ill-informed nonsense some people who know absolutely nothing whatever about the actual referendum campaign are saying.

[ReRe]

21. Please stay...

...and please tell us more. Tell us what it's like to be there, and where we have gone all wrong!

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. Racist scum feel emboldened to be openly racist by the "leave" vote

which was the result of "we don't like immigrants" more than anything. People are going up to people they perceive as "foreign" and telling them "go back where you came from". Honestly it's kid of scary and as an American in the UK as I'm afraid I'll find myself on the receiving end of it at some point. All the people here talking about "a vote to stick it to neoliberal elites" are completely wrong about why it happened and it's NOT a good thing at all.

[Agnosticsherbet]

51. Thanks. It is better to here this from those who are affected.

[Surya Gayatri]

74. ^^^This!^^^

All the people here talking about "a vote to stick it to neoliberal elites" are completely wrong...

[uponit7771]

90. +1

[DonCoquixote]

105. Agree

Down in Florida, we have a number of English ex-pats who took advantage of strong pounds and Euros to buy homes. With rare exceptions, they are hide bound conservative, lovers of UKIP, who sit around having tea with the more conservative Canadians, the ones so happy that they do not have to speak French down here. The point is that, even among people WHO HAVE BENEFITED from the EU, there is still an ugly, very xenophobic, frankly bigoted aspect. Some of the worst double down and buy rebel flags down here which they take to the UK.

[Surya Gayatri]

119. ^^^This!^^^

"The point is that, even among people WHO HAVE BENEFITED from the EU, there is still an ugly, very xenophobic, frankly bigoted aspect."

Stoked by decades of vile Euro-vilification in the British, Rupert-owned gutter press, I should add.

[DonCoquixote]

124. Funny thing is

A lot of these people sipping tea down in Central Florida are going to find their second property hard to own. Gee, where will they go to stash their tax money now? Enjoy your tea, wankers, and do not be surprised is your welcome home party consists of a bunch of pissed off young people who decide to re-enact a few scenes from "A clockwork orange."

[ReRe]

123. Thanks for the info...

If it is truly the racist thing... then shame on them. That's not what the vote was about really. Bigotry is the scourge of the earth. What makes people think that way has been a question of mine since I was a wee little child. Didn't handle the schoolyard bullies very well.

[Hissyspit]

149. +1000

[lovemydog]

161. Thanks for your observations.

I'm so sorry this vote occurred.

[auntpurl]

167. Me too, I could have written this word for word

including being an American in the UK myself.

[Dworkin]

235. It happened to me yesterday

Hi,

Yesterday my wife and I went to a village garden fete. We accidentally stepped through the wrong gate (no sign) and a nearby stall holder said, without eye contact, "Sneaking in; that's a German thing".

As racism goes it was quite subtle, but it got under my skin.

D.

[auntpurl]

236. Jesus wept.

So sorry that happened to you. And so sorry this is what England has become.

[yardwork]

9. I'm sorry to say that it doesn't surprise me at all.

[Surya Gayatri]

11. Thank you SO much for this dose of reality, Stinky.

As an EU resident and citizen, I'm shocked and appalled at the level of ignorance and misinformation being displayed on this topic.

Amen to this:

The people, it turns out, were far too ignorant to even know what they were voting for. They were sucked in by xenophobia, racism, and, as we hear in our own presidential campaign, taking their country back.

Just tune into any British media outlet and you'll hear interviews of the over-50-year-old electorate proclaiming:

"WE'RE the ones who worked to build this country and get what we have."

"It was time to take OUR country back." (verbatim)

I have yet to hear ONE (1) of them speak against the "CORPORATE ELITES"...

[The Wielding Truth]

37. I'm in agreement with you and Stinky.

[Surya Gayatri]

46. Chalk one for informed, rational opinion! Thanks...

[lovemydog]

163. Thanks also for your observations

my friend.

Speaking in very broad terms of course, sometimes I feel the western caucasian baby boomer generation is the most self-absorbed, shallow generation of the past century.

It's also the first in hundreds of years that are leaving their children much worse off financially than they were. By their own short-sighted selfish actions.

[Surya Gayatri]

165. You're welcome. I live in France, so like everybody on the Continent I feel directly concerned.

Agree about so many boomer babies growing into selfish gits. (I can say that, as I am one--born just months after WWII.)

[stupidicus]

12. many of us think the same about the support neoliberalism gets

the differences in substance and the voting against one's self-interests component notwithstanding

[Rex]

14. Well we can't let those poor groups of elites lose anything that would suck for them.

It shook up the markets so the elite can buy back what they want at pennies on the dollar. They do it all the time with disaster capitalism. They certainly don't care about the working class, but I am sure some elite group does somewhere.

[alarimer]

16. I agree, by and large.

But I think it is deeper than that. These people, like Trump voters, have been left behind by neoliberalism and thrown their lot in with exactly the wrong sort. But Labour has done itself no favors by selling out.

But there always will be people left behind. There is almost no way everyone can benefit equally from any sort of free market system. The EU was an attempt at least to do that. In some cases, the labor and environmental laws were better and stronger than what existed before. And a lot of people benefited. But as always, sometimes they benefited at the expense of others. This was not a good vote; it will be terribly disruptive and in the end, the extreme right may end up in charge, which will be bad for everyone. Think Kansas or Wisconsin. Those are the kind of policies that will be in place.

I also think progressives need to stop labeling people who don't vote as we do as nothing but racists. It is far more complex than that.

[Buzz Clik]

18. "like Trump voters, have been left behind by neoliberalism" LOL!

God, I love DU. You cannot hear stuff like that anywhere else.

[sufrommich]

19. +1000. nt

[Person 2713]

73. Entertainment from bizarro land?. Chuckles since all that primary whack is gone I guess

[Buzz Clik]

17. Xenophobia was definitely part of the equation, along with ignorance.

Two attributes that know no political boundaries.

[awoke_in_2003]

122. I always liked to believe

the Brits were less likely than we to be stirred up by racist and xenophobic rhetoric. Being that we started as an Anglo-Saxon nation, I should have known better. The traits didn't originate with us.

[asiliveandbreathe]

20. So much was being written about Brexit -

Choose wisely as so many Brits failed to do -

A good piece Brexit the morning after - by Paul Krugman NYT

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. Populist isn't good, nor bad.

At it's core is the idea that people need to run their government, and not elites. When you narrow the realms in which the people have any autonomy over, or even influence in, their own government, they use the tools available to them.
The brexit vote was better than torches and pitchforks, the only other tool available.

We've chosen a risky path.

One other thing, it's lazy and stupid to base ones opinions on a current event based solely on who supports it. I don't think people fully understand what's behind the pushback.

[mdbl]

27. unfortunately, they are marching to idiocracy

because that is what they will end up with when doing it that way.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. England did fine before the EU. n/t

[mdbl]

31. yes but now they are under the thumb of sky news

and other crap like that. I think your confidence might be misplace this time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. I'm not confident, but I'm not leaping to any conclusions either.

I'm at a loss of why our distaste of the TPP, WTO or NAFTA are a good kind of populism, but Brexit is not.

[mdbl]

45. I can only speak for myself

I don't doubt that England has the capability to turn into something else, but will they like how that ends up? Half a century ago, the EU was created for many reasons. To just throw it under the bus in one fell swoop is, as I said before, irresponsible. I hope England will be happy with the result. I don't want to see any suffering as a result but the population there used the same lame nonsense as the idiots in Texas who think they don't need the U.S. I won't have much empathy if it doesn't work out for them.

[truebrit71]

219. Because Brexit was at its base xenophobic rather than any altruistic desire to shake the yoke...

...of faceless 'unelected' officials in Brussels...

[Laser102]

40. Totally different time with different challenges.

[Surya Gayatri]

57. Yeah, like the sun now sets on a much smaller, less influential, read "non-existent", empire.

[Odin2005]

53. We live in a different world now.

Europeans have a choice between political union and being satellite states of the great powers, there is no other choice. European nationalists seem to not have yet realized that their cute little countries are not the rulers of the world, anymore.

[DonCoquixote]

109. yes, and I suspect

That both Trump and Farage have quite a few rubles in their gas tank. Let's face it, considering France and Holland both are talking about leaving the EU, we know what city will be the capital of Europe, Moscow. If Trump gets in, he dismantle NATO because he wants to make a profit elsewhere,and voila, Lisbon might as well be Moscow's western border.

[LeftishBrit]

59. There wasn't an EU at that time, so it was hardly a case of England choosing isolation

There were a few years when the Common Market existed, and England was excluded. But when most other countries weren't in it either, we weren't off on our own in isolation.

Part of the problem IMO is that many parts of England ARE worse off than in the early 70s; but it isn't because they were screwed by the EU; it's because they were screwed by Thatcherism. And the most neo-Thatcherite of our politicians and media types managed to persuade just enough people to blame the EU and the immigrants, rather than Thatcherism.


The worst IMO is not that we're out of the EU as such. That's a very bad thing, especially under current economic circumstances, but no doubt we could muddle our way through to compensating to some extent. The worst is that we've given our country on a silver platter to our worst right-wing demagogues.

I despair at times.

Please, Americans, don't make the same mistake in November.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. The alternative to right wing populism is leftist populism.

Western society (obviously not only the US) is defined by this polarity. Embracing socially centrist economically-neoliberal establishment to ineffectively counterbalance these right wing demagogues is a huge mistake.

We're past the point at which we can solve the problem by becoming part of it.

[libdem4life]

229. As someone said, the Middle isn't holding...i.e. Middle Class.

Instead of a continuum, I fear we are reaching back to the dyad. I forgot who said that...You can't solve a problem with the same systems that created them.

Well put, BTW.

[Surya Gayatri]

77. ^^^AMEN to this!^^^

"...it isn't because they were screwed by the EU; it's because they were screwed by Thatcherism."

I'm gutted by this, LB, as are my British friends. They wanted to move to France, but now think it won't be possible.

Sitting here on the other side of "La Manche", watching beloved Britain tear itself apart. So sad.

I curse them all--Cameron the Craven, Boris the Big Mouth Boor, Farage the Fabricator, and Murdoch the Mogul of Mendacity.

[LeftishBrit]

79. Thanks! And those titles are so appropriate for them!

[HuckleB]

111. +1,000,000 ... 000

[Boudica the Lyoness]

62. I lived in the UK before the EU.

It was a lovely country then. Now it's a shit hole.

[LeftishBrit]

88. It was never totally 'lovely' and it's not a 'shit hole' now

(and I was a child in pre-EU times).

Some things were better due to the Postwar Consensus: government leaders of both parties believed in full employment, a mixed economy and reasonable spending on public services, though these things certainly differed in degree between the parties.

But there was never a time when everything was perfect. In the 60s, most children left school at 15 and did not seek further education; the life expectancy was about 10 years lower than now; and pollution was a serious problem in cities. Many urban parts of the country, including most of East London, were very run down, and often had big crime problems : e.g. London with the Kray brothers. Racism and sexism were rarely even challenged - women didn't have the right to equal pay until 1976. Until the 90s, Northern Ireland was in a state of civil war, sometimes resulting in terrorist outrages on the mainland. Not saying that any of this was BECAUSE we weren't in the EU; just that it wasn't some sort of perfect golden age.

And going back a little earlier, Europe certainly had its problems such as millions of people being killed in two world wars!!! The EU certainly contributed to the maintenance of peace.

[TubbersUK]

153. So did I, and still do in fact

It was a mixed picture then and it's a mixed picture now.

[lovemydog]

168. It always is and always will be.

I hate nostalgia that neglects how awful it was for large numbers of people.

[TubbersUK]

171. +1 n/t

[truebrit71]

223. Me too and I totally disagree with you.

In fact, imho it was total shit until it joined the EU and started acting like a grown-up country rather than a bunch of elitist, stuck up snobs still feeling butthurt that they didn't have an empire any more.

[reACTIONary]

78. World War I, World War II . ....

.... good times ! !

[brush]

83. You mean when it was Great Britain and had an empire? Sorry, that's long gone.

[GliderGuider]

67. So is America.

[matt819]

24. The second most popular search time on Google UK yesterday?

What is the EU?

Talk about an uninformed electorate.

[whathehell]

193. What was the first?

[Thirties Child]

29. Our daughter's take on the vote

Our daughter married a Brit, has lived in Yorkshire for 13 years. She's not a British citizen so couldn't vote, but would have voted to remain in the EU, which surprised me since she's somewhat conservative and somewhat xenophobic. Her husband, who is far more liberal than she is, voted to remain. She's an advertising copywriter, said the remain ads were terrible.

From what she said, scheduling the vote was a ploy for the UK to get what it wanted in negotiations with the EU. They apparently said they'd take their toys and go home if they didn't get what they wanted. It backfired big time.

Fwiw, she lived in Buffalo for 12 years before moving to the UK, voted for HRC for senator, would vote for her for POTUS.

[TheCowsCameHome]

32. Stupid sells. Really stupid buys it in large quantities

[DCBob]

33. Spot on.

[BlueCaliDem]

34. Preach it, STC! I'm with you 100%. eom

[Odin2005]

36. Sadly there is a lot of overlap between some elements of the populist Left and populist Right.

And I say that as someone who is part of the populist left.

The common thread seems to be a tendency towards engaging in conspiracy theories, seeing everything bad as caused by the personal decisions of individual scapegoats portrayed as cartoon villains rather than impersonal social and economic forces, and a juvenile "Fuck The Man" attitude.

[sufrommich]

69. Well said. nt

[uponit7771]

91. hear here

[Surya Gayatri]

169. A-friggin'-men, Odin.

The common thread seems to be a tendency towards engaging in conspiracy theories...and a juvenile "Fuck The Man" attitude.

[msanthrope]

215. This post says it all. nt

[Laser102]

38. This is the danger of uninformed voters. Had the leave crew been pressed for specifics, I doubt

the outcome would have been the same.

[TubbersUK]

39. Yep

Boris Johnson (one of the most rabid, self-serving and heavily networked Tories Eton has ever spawned) and his cronies, in charge of shaping what comes next for the UK.

Brexit = Vote against the elite?

Brexit = Vote for working class interests?

Hardly.

[SCantiGOP]

41. Agree with you, OP

[lillypaddle]

44. Thanks for posting

kick

[pkdu]

47. K&R....this will lead to "Great Britain" becoming "Little England". nt

[LeftishBrit]

49. Thank you!!!

This was, more than anything, about political rivalries on the Right, with the far right using Brexit as a club to fight the centre right.

The main leaders of Brexit are Nigel Farage, a public-school educated ex-stockbroker who thinks the Tories aren't right-wing enough; Boris Johnson, a Tory MP from a very upper-class background (went to Eton), who is currying favour with right-wingers who might make him Prime Minister; and a bunch of RW Tory MPs. All, of course, egged on by Rupert Murdoch and most of the press barons. The Brexit campaign was not about TPP or whether the Greeks had been badly treated; it was about blaming bloody foreigners for everything. 'Hop Off You Frogs' as the Sun once said. And still worse, all those bloody immigrants! Not to say that every Leave voter cast their vote for these reasons, but the Leave campaign at the top was based on xenophobia.

[TubbersUK]

103. You've summed it up there n/t

[truebrit71]

225. Yup. Got it in one.

...

[Android3.14]

50. The lesson here is to invest in public education

Brexit and Trump are two sides of the same coin. If you want a progressive populace, you must support a conservative approach to education.

[Gman]

54. That's why I don't even post on this topic

The issue crept up on me while on vacation for a few weeks. I just don't know enough about it.

[Denzil_DC]

55. Thanks for saying this.

The last few days have been like playing Whack-A-Mole while trying hard to stay patient and not get hides or fall out with folks for no productive reason.

I've followed US politics closely for years, I'm married to an American, and although I'll chip in on some conversations about US politics, I wouldn't dream of making some of the grand assumptions and pronouncements about it that I see about UK politics here on an hourly basis.

DU has a fairly numerous UK sub-community and a currently increasingly active UK Group. We're certainly not in lockstep, but we have relevant perspectives and experiences and views that so often seem to get lost or ignored among the stream of opinions from afar that swamp threads. That's been more and more apparent in the last few tumultuous and traumatic days.

That's not so much a complaint as an observation.

[GliderGuider]

56. I have a very different interpretation of what happened.

In my opinion, Brexit is not exactly a political event, confined to the European political theater of war. I see it as the political expression of a deeply felt social anxiety. Yes, objectively it was a dumb move, but more significantly it was an inchoate scream of rage and frustration coming from the beleaguered classes. Similar to the possible upcoming election of Trump in America. All around the world the alarms are flashing red across all human and natural systems. Brexit is just one of those alarms and frankly it is small beer compared to what is happening in the large political institutions/oligarchies and across the natural world.

[ljm2002]

176. Your interpretation seems correct to me. n/t

[Hekate]

58. Aghast, is my word of choice. Ta, Stinky.

[IronLionZion]

60. People love to be called stupid lazy fucks

It's the best way to win their votes.



The REMAIN campaign should have done a better communication strategy so that people would know what they are voting for and what are the benefits. They failed. Elections have consequences.

[Frances]

61. Putin is probably laughing

The breakup of the EU makes Putin stronger.

Personally, I think the invasion of Iraq led to the wars in the Middle East that led to the rise of ISIS that led to immigration to Europe that led to backlash from people in Europe.

And to think that Gore won the popular vote in 2000.

That was the most crooked election in our history and it had the most profound negative long term effects on this country and the rest of the world IMO.

[Stinky The Clown]

151. Connecting those particular dots is very much a part of this story

Indeed, they may actually BE the story, as hinted in my OP.

[rockfordfile]

64. I agree

The entire push for Brexit are from right wing extremist. Elite right wing extremists supported the Brexit.

[Akamai]

65. Seems clear to me that the austerity politics of the Eurozone motivated many people

to vote the way they did. The EU requirements that countries do not have more than 3% deficit in any year and never have a national debt higher than 60% of GDP spun many countries into a tailspin, including Greece, Portugal, Spain.

Take a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_and_Growth_Pact

This has led to high unemployment, cut back on social services, etc., for Europe, even far higher than the unnecessary unemployment, tenor, and our country because of Republican enforced austerity programs, which are neither effective nor productive.

If I wasn't unemployed youngster in the UK, the austerity politics of Cameron may well have motivated me as well to react with strong antagonism to his suggestions to stay within the EU. And in other countries are part of the EU, many, many citizens are watching their life savings being eaten away from the demonstrably false "austerity" economics forced on them by wealthy elites.

Thom Hartmann points out that austerity measures have never made a country great, that deficit spending--especially for such useful things as roads, bridges, etc.--bring real prosperity and wealth to others. Since Ronald Reagan, public works have been side lined, especially with these know-nothing Republican extremists.

Keynesian economics has been proven time and time again to be effective in restoring economic growth by Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and other right wing thinkers, or stopping that effective set of tools.

[Denzil_DC]

71. The UK's leading political parties are independently wedded to austerity.

It's unfortunately a home-grown concensus, a hangover of Thatcherism, and doesn't stem from EU membership.

Unless there are radical and highly unlikely changes, austerity will continue with the UK outside the EU.

In fact, the Leave section of the electorate just handed the establishment a very handy justification for continuing it in spades: Tighten your belts, plebs! Us against the world! Pass the port, Cedric.

[TubbersUK]

128. + 10000000000

[Odin2005]

96. IMO a big cause of this is the disproportionate influence of Germany on EU economic policy.

Germans for both historic and cultural reasons are wary of large deficits and scared of inflation.

[Akamai]

112. That has certainly been a large part of Paul Krugman's

argument against how the EU has enforced austerity on the countries within the group.

And meanwhile, the hell with the savings of the people! with job prospects! Wealthy bankers don't have to deal the riff-raff while they drink their scotch and sodas in their meeting rooms.

[TubbersUK]

126. The UK Conservatives

have never needed any external encouragement to visit austerity on workers and the disadvantaged.

They're past masters at deflecting blame and creating diversions when they take another bite out of the poor while sparing or giving handouts to their cronies.

Basically, they're quite happy to have created a growing precariat in the UK - it was done knowingly and it suits them.

It was in no way necessary though.

ETA: Blairite Labour governments don't have clean hands on this either.

[modem77]

85. I have been saying this for a while now. The open border policy of the EU was just the last straw.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

82. Older people "lazy ignorant fucks" voted to leave because we remember.

I remember the Pearlie Kings and Queens, the men selling hot chestnuts on London street corners. The rag and bone man. The milk man. The knife sharpening man. "Fresh strawberries, get your fresh strawberries". Street parties. No crime. No vandalism. No rubbish and dog shit everywhere. Children playing all over the place until it got dark. We left our babies in their prams outside the shops along with our dogs leads tied to the bins. We looked out for each other like we were a family.

We had imports from all over, New Zealand, Argentina, Australia, Denmark. A lot of our stuff was 'Empire Made'. And it wasn't all 'Hong Kong rubbish'.

We left school at 14 and then 15 because good paying jobs were abundant. Girls often worked in shops or factories and saved until they got married. Boys were apprentices. A man could be the sole bread winner. Girls were often sent off to college by their companies for extra education/training. At age 15 I worked at an American company called Texas Instruments. You'd need at least a four year degree to do what I did there now. My mother left school at 14 and worked until she was 65 at a good job, because she enjoyed it.

Now your going to tell me how rubbish it was pre-EU and I don't know any better because I'm an uneducated idiot. Those boys who fought and often died in the trenches were also uneducated 'ignorant fucks'. Toffs would be fucked without us.

[Surya Gayatri]

93. Nice meander down nostalgia lane. This "Mary Poppins" Britain did not disappear under EU influence.

It was already gone when I lived there for six months back at the beginning of the 70's, before Britain's accession to the EU.

The pavements were over-crowded, the streets were filthy, the underground was stinky, and everywhere was chock-a-block with "ferriners".

I couldn't walk down the street without being hit on by a Pakistani, a West Indian, a West African or even a Hong Kong Chinese. They knew another "outsider" when they saw one.

The only place the more stand-offish native Londoners would hit on me was in the boozy atmosphere of a pub.

Modern technological and population pressures, modern media hegemony, the Thatcherite revolution (or devolution) etc. etc. are responsible for the demise of your dream, not EU decrees.

[Surya Gayatri]

107. No, but six months gives you a pretty accurate view of the lay of the land.

And, I'm not a "fucking" expert or a "fucking" anything else.

Why Duers feel they have to resort to profane insults is a mystery. I was polite and in no way offended you. Why can you not respond in kind?

[PJMcK]

159. A little over-the-top, I think, Boudica (n/t)

[TubbersUK]

139. LOL - Mary Poppins Britain

You're quite right, that Britain never existed - at least not in the severely airbrushed way the poster describes it.

Oh, I remember some of the characters and practices from the 1950's and 60's he/she describes, but I also remember a lot of the less picturesque stuff.

Plus, as you say, wtf has its disappearance got to do with the EU?

ETA: It's just struck me, maybe it was satire ?

[Surya Gayatri]

144. The wrong-headed nostalgia sounded pretty sincere. I don't believe the poster

meant to be satirical.

He/she is an ex-pat British subject who voted "LEAVE" in the referendum.

The idealized Britain he/she described has never existed anywhere but in books and movies.

That gauzy dreamscape reminded me of "Pygmalion" and "My Fair Lady", too.

[Denzil_DC]

145. "It's just struck me, maybe it was satire ?"

Gin.

Needs more tonic.

And cowbell.

[muriel_volestrangler]

187. It reads remarkably well in a Tony Hancock voice (nt)

[TubbersUK]

188. Oh, it does .......brilliant n/t

[Paka]

196. I never lived there...

...but I did spend several months in the UK in the late '60's and yours is the England I remember, not the happy strawberry sellers in the street.

[uponit7771]

94. This is a prime example of people voting against the best interest, why did UK vote for nearly...

... permanent policies like Thatcher and RayGun !!

WHAT THE FUCK DID THEY EXPECT!?!??

You will have less economic security and there goes all the other securities with it along with the neighborhoods !!

I have a semblance of the good stuff you describe in your post in my subdivision in the US (in Texas nevertheless) but that's because MOST here are economically SECURE.

Of course people have time to pick up dog shit and snot and people aren't scared to leave buggies out with their critters cause anyone else can get one too if they want one.


It was Thatcherism and RayGunism that started this ball rolling !!!


The way it was KEPT rolling was to point out the "others" and have people vote against the "others" and their best interest just like the assholes did with the Brexit

[Boudica the Lyoness]

102. If you expect to live in a shit then you will live in a shit hole.

I expect more.

[TubbersUK]

164. The UK is not a shit-hole n/t

[Denzil_DC]

95. Your nostalgia is touching, especially coming from an ex-pat.

It's really quite poignant.

If, as you've colorfully observed elsewhere, compared to your vision of past loveliness, the UK nowadays is a shithole, who's to say it wouldn't be more of a shithole now without EU membership over the intervening years?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

104. Not if people like me ran it.

Anyway we voted to leave! WE FUCKING WON! People have have enough.

[Denzil_DC]

110. Then maybe you should have stayed rather than moving abroad, huh?

Congratulations for FUCKING WINNING!

Now we people who actually bother to, you know, live here have to live with and try to tidy up the mess you've contributed to creating while you gloat and cheer from abroad. That's actually more than a little distasteful and annoying, TBH, but I don't think it'll affect your lifestyle any, so that's all good.

Thanks a bunch, anyway. We'll be sure to let you know when we've had enough.

[Surya Gayatri]

127. The irony of an ex-pat voting for a gauzy dream England that hasn't existed for decades.

Go figure...

[auntpurl]

173. I know. Seriously unbelievable.

[LeftishBrit]

249. That hasn't ever really existed at all!

[Surya Gayatri]

250. I still remember the bemused reactions of the Brits when, during my first visit back in the late

60s, I naively wondered why things didn't look like I'd known them through British literature, music and avant garde cinema.

Where were all of those cool places I'd seen in "Blow Up" and "Georgie Girl"? Where was "Swinging London"? LOL!

While hitchhiking through the Yorkshire Moors, I got some raised eyebrows when I said I could envisage Kathy and Heathcliff cavorting on the mist-covered hills.

[Odin2005]

99. Your post is the definition of rose-tinted nostalgia glasses.

You sound like older white Americans who idealize the 1950s, forgetting about Jim Crow, suffocating gender roles that drove many women insane, homosexuality being considered a mental illness, industry free to pollute the environment, etc.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

106. No Jim Crow in England.

We won!

[Spider Jerusalem]

132. You don't live here. You don't get to say "we".

[Surya Gayatri]

152. Boom! Mic drop!

[auntpurl]

174. AMEN

[treestar]

238. I'd question or at least research it

I would bet any people of color in England at that time did not get equal treatment.

[Hissyspit]

150. Oh, good lord.

[auntpurl]

190. Jesus wept.

[truebrit71]

222. What a load of bollocks...

You sound like the "make America great again" crowd.

Rose-tinted horseshit.

[TubbersUK]

226. Perfect response to that load of crap :) n/t

[treestar]

237. Why is leaving school at 14-15 a good thing?

[LeftishBrit]

248. People wouldn't have had to sacrifice their lives in the trenches if there'd been no wars

Whatever one thinks of the EU, it's helped to keep the peace in Europe and perhaps prevent millions more deaths.

And what time exactly are you referring to? Do you actually think that things were better for most people in Britain before WW2? The Depression? People not being able to afford health care - or often, even enough to eat?

There was a 30-year period after the war when we had near-full employment and that was a very good thing, and it's tragic that it was destroyed, but it wasn't the EU that destroyed it. It was Thatcherism - as a matter of policy.

[bucolic_frolic]

86. Global International Capitalists Won

because they can now move money and resources without EU interference

The UK being sold for its depressed currency

[Vattel]

92. I have been in the UK the last couple weeks, and my British friends and colleagues here

would all agree with your post.

[bemildred]

113. Yes, cognitive disconnect is very upsetting, I hope you get over it soon. nt

[Hissyspit]

148. It's not cognitive dissonance to be disgusted that some here want to side with the far-right UK

racists. It's just disgust.

[niyad]

114. considering that many of the people who voted for it, at least in what I am reading, didn't actually

understand what the hell they were doing (which is why the number one question on google friday was "what does leaving the EU mean?), your assessment is quite spot on.

oh, not to mention the outright LIES that the people promoting this vote said, including how much money would be going to the nhs.

[Surya Gayatri]

134. "...the outright LIES that the people promoting this vote said..."

Already the Brexit ringleaders, Farage in particular, have recanted on two major promises:

1) No monies "saved" because of Brexit will be re-allocated to the NHS (the figure of £350m a day was bruited about and used in "LEAVE" campaign billboards),


2) There will likely be NO appreciable reduction in immigration in the foreseeable future, in spite of Brexit leaders' pre-vote promises.

British voters were sold a crock of shit and they willingly bought it.

"...the negative effect from lower economic growth will outweigh the fiscal savings from the UK no longer having to contribute to the EU budget."

Says it all really.

[niyad]

135. somebody should have reminded these people of an old adage: "if something sounds too good to be

true, it probably is"

[ConservativeDemocrat]

115. Hell Hath Frozen Over

Stinky the Clown has made a clear and obviously true statement that I'm completely on board with.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Stinky The Clown]

154. Pardon me.

Do I know you? Should I know you?

Should I care?

[ancianita]

117. Being confused, I usually say nothing. But I'm not getting what you're saying about what

the proper Democratic voter should be thinking here on this board. When you say "...do some research before you extoll the glory of the Brexit vote," I get that if we all read the same range of articles and facts that we'll see the merits of being against the exit.

Then I read from a blog HuckleB posted about other countries' polarizing around social and economic issues:

In countries from Austria to Greece, from the Philippines to France, the mainstream centre is melting and we are witnessing a polarisation of the extremes on the far, xenophobic right and the far left, now occupied by radical ecologists. Social media in the Age of Stupid makes anything that you want to believe suddenly make sense.

The "Age of Stupid" case here comes off as an attempt by a pro- 1%'er to slam social media as the purveyor of "stupid" with the 99% as much as it casts the same label on the latest vote. The blogger sounds as if he's making a case that says, no matter what any majority wants, it's too stupid and variously uninformed to know what's best for it, and so, social media's utility is dead.

Then I see a Pew article summarizing polls about the Muslim assimilation capacity issues of these countries, and I try to keep in mind that England's issues aren't everyone's, that they were never founded on a constitution like the US's, anyway.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/07/21/chapter-1-the-rift-between-muslims-and-the-west/

I'm willing to sit out these arguments over the merits of EU membership vs. local identity issues without trying to mediate consensus around here.

To me, the Brexit vote represents social, economic and legal complications Brits have lived with for a long while -- regardless of what 'positions' got media attention -- and so I'm not willing to say that the Brexit vote stands as a reflection of their on the ground bigotry or stupidity.

Homework and research these days can deepen our ambivalence as much as confirm biases or harden positions, I think.

[Warpy]

120. The "leave" videos over at You Tube were slick beyond belief

and steeped in the fantasy of no regulation on business leading to riches for all.

While they did make the case for an overpaid oid boys' club in Burssels that was cozying up to multinational corporations, it somehow failed to mention all the labor protections that had overturned much of Thatcher's cruelty in Britain.

How this will shake out is anyone's guess. The Pound bottomed out and has recovered slightly. World stock markets will likely be jittery next week, but Chicken Little will realize that the sky has resolutely stayed in place and so they will recover.

The problem with populism is that it can be both manipulated by propaganda and turn into mob rule. Anyone who has seen a mob in action is frightened by the prospect.

[Surya Gayatri]

130. "Anyone who has seen a mob in action is frightened by the prospect."

And, that's exactly what this was--a mob stoked into Euro-hate by a gutter press and lying ringleaders.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

131. Turnout was low due to the weather....

"Stay" would pass in a re-vote.

[mwrguy]

138. Is a re-vote possible?

[Surya Gayatri]

157. There are already over 1,000,000 signatures on a petition to do just that.

It has surpassed the minimum number required and must now be presented to Parliament for consideration.

[auntpurl]

178. 2.3mil now nt

[Surya Gayatri]

179. Amazing...I've heard this phenomenon called "REGREXIT". LOL!

2.3 million! That's far more than the margin of victory.

Thanks for giving us the lowdown from on the ground, as it were.

[auntpurl]

180. You can follow along with the petition votes here:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

And you're welcome.

Edited to add: you can also see a "map view" of where people are signing, at that link.

[Surya Gayatri]

182. Hey, this looks REALLY interesting. Ta, as our beloved Brits say.

[Denzil_DC]

202. Thanks for the link.

When I signed, it was up to 2,668,667 signatures. Five minutes later, it stands at 2,675,766!

[auntpurl]

204. When my spouse signed last night, it was just over 200000

Really incredible response and shows just how motivated people are to oppose this. I hope it continues and doesn't fade into the background.

Wish I could sign.

[Denzil_DC]

205. 2,690,870 now!

This could get hypnotic.

The map's interesting. Hotspots in London and a few other locations in the south east. It doesn't seem to have caught on in such a big way up here in Scotland, but that could change very quickly if some of our social media big bitters like Wings Over Scotland get hold of it (though by now some up here will no doubt be developing their own agenda about the whole thing - we have big fish to fry ...).

[Spitfire of ATJ]

162. Only when it goes against the will of the banks.

[TheKentuckian]

245. Yup, you already know if the vote went the other way it would be the "the people have spoken

and it is time to look forward" no matter how many petitions came.

I'm not making a call on this particular vote but about a more general principle, though I'm not very pro EU because I have significant difficulty determining where the baby ends and the bathwater begins and when it gets like that doubt about the existence of the baby other than as an ideal creeps in.

Can a baby exist, then thrive, and finally not grow into some kind of monster in such sludge?

Why is there so much effort in selling bathwater rather than focusing on babies when trade agreements come up other than the unfortunate delivery of orders of magnitude more bathwater than baby so selling the win is hollow so better off doing a snake oil job on the garbage, right? Get the win, deal with the largely irrelevant blowback from the pawn class after there are no go backs.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

251. I look upon it as a hijacking....

Kinda like how the hippy movement is reduced to a sale on tie dyed jeans.

[TheKentuckian]

256. Fair assessment

[muriel_volestrangler]

189. I did a calculation; the weather made little difference compared to the margin Leave won by

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7955814

About 27,000, compared to a 1,270,000 margin.

(That was just looking at London; but the area 2nd most affected by the weather was the South East, which tended to vote Leave, so a larger turnout there would tend to increase the margin)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

192. Try it again in 8 years.

[Teamster Jeff]

133. If you know so much, who was the guy who fucked a pig? And did the pig figure in any of this?

[Stinky The Clown]

156. Ask LBJ

Your move

[Teamster Jeff]

160. I deny everything

[LeftishBrit]

247. Yes, it did

Years ago, Cameron (allegedly) put his equipment in a dead pig's mouth. This time, he did it again, but the pig turned out to be live and with sharp teeth. Guess what that did to Cameron - and to the country that was put in the same dead pig's mouth.

[Teamster Jeff]

254. Ouch!

[NobodyHere]

136. How dare people have varying opinions!

[Stinky The Clown]

137. You can have any opinion you wish, but you can't have your own set of facts.

[former9thward]

172. Every CEO was for Remain.

That's a fact you leave out. Norway and Switzerland do just fine without the EU.

[Stinky The Clown]

177. I didn't leave it out.

It isn't really germaine.

[auntpurl]

183. You are absolutely hitting it out of the park in this thread.

[Hissyspit]

155. Wrong.

Come up with something else.

[Hissyspit]

142. Agreed. People here defending a referendum set up by a right-wing PM to appease the

racist, xenophobic wing of his party, all in the name of "democracy." Amazing.

I brought up "tyranny of the majority" since it took only ONE idiot to pass this nonsense, and people, U.S. citizens most likely, tell me I hate democracy.

Oh, but they are fighting the "New World Order." Who cares how much women and children and minorities will suffer, and whether the NHS gets dismantled.

[auntpurl]

181. Spot on. Good post.

[mcar]

147. K&R

[spanone]

158. K&R...

[auntpurl]

166. Absofuckinglutely spot on. I just posted another thread about this, should have read yours first.

[ljm2002]

170. Here's the thing about "populism" ...

... it's an easy sell when the population is unhappy. And the population tends to be unhappy when their economic standing goes down or stagnates, while they work more; and when their children have fewer opportunities than they do; and when their leaders could give a flying rat's patootie about the well being of their constituents.

Yes, some of that populist rage was molded by demagogues who took advantage of the unhappiness, and who knew how to whip up xenophobic fervor.

But you know what? If the so-called elites had given a fig about the populace in the first place, we'd all be in a better place. But they did not, and they do not. The only message they got out of this result is "Britain's population are a bunch of angry bigots". As long as that is the only take-home lesson, expect things to get worse.

[TubbersUK]

203. For what it's worth:

Last edited Sat Jun 25, 2016, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Yes, some of that populist rage was molded by demagogues who took advantage of the unhappiness, and who knew how to whip up xenophobic fervor.

Unfortunately, from what I've experienced over the last few weeks, a great deal of the working class anger and pain caused by successive Conservation and Blairite governments was minted into xenophobia. I have to say that I've also met a lot of natural, grassroots Tory and UKIP types (usually in the older age groups) who are just dyed in the wool Little Englanders and/or racists. Bear in mind that the Conservatives won a comfortable victory in 2015 and it's the party which historically has attracted the anti-immigration vote.

Brexit voters outwith these two main groups exist, but seem to be pretty rare.

But you know what? If the so-called elites had given a fig about the populace in the first place, we'd all be in a better place. But they did not, and they do not.

True.

ETA: I did some shifts with my local Labour Party's 'Remain' campaign and met a lot of Brexit voters & supporters.

[ljm2002]

240. Thanks for the insights...

...and yes, it is painfully obvious that xenophobia played a large part in the Brexit vote. My point though, which I think you get, is that it would not have found such fertile ground if the powers-that-be were able -- and willing -- to enact policies that help the majority of the population rather than just the top .5%.

[Wernothelpless]

184. After listening to this again, I wonder

She predicts the Friday market fall when her charts show the 1% were selling early in the week ... Doesn't this means the fix was in on Brexit? ... didn't matter which way the vote fell ... Charts aren't fiction

[seabeckind]

186. I'm afraid I just don't go along with the idea

that 52% of the people who voted for Brexit did it for xenophobic motives.

Don't buy it.

I also don't go along with the idea that 52% of the people are stupid.

Don't buy it.

[Stinky The Clown]

201. Why am I not surprised?

Have a swell day.

[seabeckind]

212. Gee, I don't know.

Perhaps you've gotten accustomed to people suggesting you missed a spot with your broad brush?

I really don't know why you're not surprised.

Did you paint me also?

[fleabiscuit]

208. How big a margin would it take to believe it? nt

[seabeckind]

211. Irrelevant deflection.

The number was in fact around 52%.

Assuming that xenophobia was the reason for over half the population just seems like a stretch.

I'm sure there are people who didn't blame their plight on immigration. Some just might have blamed it on globalization.

Meh.

[SunSeeker]

199. K & R

[L. Coyote]

206. Trump loves backruptcy, so no wonder he loves Brexit. Watchingh money disappear, such fun!

[OrwellwasRight]

207. As I read somewhere on DU today:

When people are denied populist solutions on the left, they will turn to populist solutions on the right. That's it in a nutshell.

Sadly, most Americans and Europeans have been living under 30 years of pro-business, pro-austerity, deregulatory, wage stagnating, neoliberalism. The tried voting left, and got bullshit pro-business tax cuts in return. So they don't think the government is responsive to their needs. And they're not necessarily wrong. Spain, Italy, Ireland, Greece, in every case it was the Democratic Socialists who implemented austerity, not the parties of the right. As Thomas Frank has eloquently written, the party of the left largely abandoned the economics of the left. I don't necessarily applaud the Brexit, but I understand it.

And I don't think you are rights about the elites. They are the same everywhere. There is a global elite class. They all went to Harvard, Yale, MIT, U Chicago. They all speak perfect accent-free English. They all want to make money and don't care about abusing workers in the process.

[Stinky The Clown]

209. Wow.

Do you have a roster of Club Oligarch?

That was being being silly.

Now I'm serious. You make it sound like "they" control b both sides of every issue. I really doubt that. I actually doubt that there is some cohesive elite group.

Hmmmm . . . maybe there is a Club Oligarch.

[OrwellwasRight]

210. Try reading:

You might learn something from The Global Class War, A People's History of the United States, The Price of Inequality, and even The Communist Manifesto.

And what is your alternative, that we should rely on the noblesse oblige of the kindly elites?

Maybe if the overlords were just kinder, we'd all be OK with being the underclass.

[Stinky The Clown]

218. Seriously

If you want to be taken seriously, avoid words like "elites" and "overlords". They make your argument sound as if delivered by a pimply faced kid with a scraggly almost-beard.

[OrwellwasRight]

220. You're hilarious.

Read your OP. YOU raise the term elites in your OP. The use of overlords is sarcasm, in response to your use of "club oligarch." The day I care if you take me seriously, I'll let you know. Until then, please keep insulting people who are using your own vocabulary to respond to your own posts. It's brilliant.

[Stinky The Clown]

224. Thanks.

I'm here all week.

And try the veal. Don't forget to tip your waiter.

[Agony]

257. Spot On.

Thomas Frank is brilliant, and I will throw Steve Keen in there with him.

[romanic]

214. Oh no some people have different opinions than me, how dare they!?

[fleabiscuit]

216. If you don't know where you are going, you might wind up someplace else. ~ Yogi Berra

[AllTooEasy]

217. He people weren't suckered into racism, xenophobia, etc

The Leave voters ARE racist xenophobes.

[Veruca Salt]

246. While I don't disagree there was definitely some of that

In the mix for leave voters, it definitely wasn't all of them. Otherwise how do you explain Priti Patel?

As an EU citizen in the UK, this is depressing.

[Betty Karlson]

233. So many tin ears: calling those who want anything but the status quo BOTH racists and duped.

But I will agree with you that tin-eared status quo and demagoguery often go together, although not always on the same side of the debate.

[Stand and Fight]

234. Kicked and recommended. Spot on analysis. n/t

[roomtomove]

242. Referendums ARE real demoracy

but they need two things

an informed and educated electorate

an educated, independent (non-corporate), non-partisan media

AND if the above can become reality, "populism" is a true democracy

your comments about "populism" sound elitist as well, especially if you blame the voters

if you were king or a governor of say North Carolina I suspect you you would require IQ tests to vote

unfortunately the corporatists and globalists created a monster that bit them in the arse

[FairWinds]

243. Not impressed with the crude lingo in this post . .

who is it meant to persuade or impress?

If that is the only way you can communicate, then
please don't bother.

And if populism is "an easy sell," then what is
neo-liberalism - which is actually winning against
populism nearly all the time.

And don't forget PROGRESSIVE POPULISM
(aka Bernie)

Please follow your own advice, and "do some research."

[Stinky The Clown]

244. Wow. Where to start?

:snort:

But thanks for the critique of my delivery.

By the way, use of the word "fuck" is not related to intelligence, but to manners.

I'm sorry, I missed the rest of your point.

[FairWinds]

253. Well Mr. Stink . .

Where to begin?

You could start by reading up on Progressive Populism
vs. Reactionary Populism.

They are not the same thing at all.

You're original post was less than helpful because you
made no distinction between the two . .

http://prospect.org/article/our-progressive-populism

You're welcome.

[vintx]

252. Agree almost completely. The only reason I say 'almost' is that it was a vote against 'the elites'

if not in fact, then at least in the minds of the voters (who were lied to, duped, etc, but still)

We have seen the same thing happening here for decades. The right gets low-income conservatives on their side by lying to them about 'the elites' and it works.

And the same thing applies here too regarding racism.

When the right co-opts populist rhetoric they are extremely dangerous.