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[GarroHorus]

This message was self-deleted by its author (GarroHorus) on Sun Jun 10, 2012, 03:19 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[shcrane71]

1. Don't believe everything you read in the US media.

The election was rigged. There needs to be an investigation.

[GarroHorus]

2. Really?

So please post your hard evidence to prove the election was rigged.

[BamaFanLee]

11. Walker won

There is your evidence. Walker won.

[GarroHorus]

48. That's conspiracy theory nonsense. n/t

[spinbaby]

57. What it proves is that money can buy elections

I'm so depressed about the state of this country.

[GarroHorus]

93. That is definitely evidence

It is evidence that a majority of Wisconsinites did not want to remove Walker from his first term.

It most definitely is NOT evidence of election fraud.

[Dokkie]

29. social conservative

union members? I am guessing that there are hardcore conservatives within the union ranks. Its akin to smokers approving a raise in cigarette taxes even when they know that the money raised isn't going to we used in a way that benefit them.

[shcrane71]

87. Who are you voting for in 2012? You ignore evidence.

[Chipper Chat]

4. I concur.

That's like saying "36% of US gays to vote for Romney in November."

[GarroHorus]

6. Okay

Then would you please post the hard evidence to prove the election was rigged?

[shcrane71]

55. Yep. Doesn't happen.

[badtoworse]

5. This election was not close - Barret was trounced.

You're delusional if you think it was rigged.

[shcrane71]

8. Exit polls showed Obama winning WI in November by 12 points, yet those same voters voted for Walker?

Nope, doesn't pass the smell test. In other countries, a full-on investigation takes place when exit polls don't match the official results coming from their media.

NBC called the election with less than 10% of precincts reporting, and you're not skeptical? I've got a bridge in Kansas that I want to sell you.

[badtoworse]

10. I dealt with this question in another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=774161

[joeglow3]

14. Seems 100% reasonable to me

We had people on the right try to recall our mayor because they did not like his policies. I guarantee if there was a regular election, he would have lost. However, many people who opposed him would not vote to recall him because they felt you should only recall someone for breaking a law. They did not like the idea of recalling simply because he enacted something they did not like.

I guarantee you saw much of that yesterday. There is no way in hell he will win re-election.

[GarroHorus]

15. Same exit polls said 60% felt recall elections were only warranted for misconduct

So your smell test fails the smell test. Democrats voted for Walker out of a sense of principal that recall elections should only be used in cases of misconduct.

[RC]

37. Wasn't misconduct the reason for the recall?

Or isn't destroying people lives for monetary gain misconduct?

[GarroHorus]

49. Nope, that's policy.

Misconduct is breaking the law.

[Historic NY]

52. Well we let Republicans recall Gray Davis.....and it wasn't misconduct...

[GarroHorus]

54. Apparently Republicans only believe recalls should be for misconduct for Republicans.

Democrats can be recalled for simply being Democrats.

It's the IOKIYAR meme.

[shcrane71]

56. Maybe Republicans have Dems on the take... they do have all the money.

How much are you getting?

[GarroHorus]

59. You don't like the truth much, do you?

How much are you being paid?

[shcrane71]

60. Character Assassination, that's a fav with RW trolls.

[GarroHorus]

65. That's odd coming from somebody who attempted to assassinate my character. n/t

[shcrane71]

66. Who are you voting for in 2012, troll?

[newspeak]

68. yeah, I remember when Issa thought he was going to be the next governor

after being one of the instigators of the recall. Enron was screwing california hard, gray went to little boots pleading to allow regulation of enron after california had deregulated. Little boots turned his back on him; thus, allowing his "friend" to screw grandmas in california.

So, california voted for gropenfuher who just happened to attend a meeting with enron. That state lawsuit against enron, went down after he was elected. There are too many people clueless in this country or they really, really love being hurt by greedy, corrupt arseholes.

Now that walker has his little mandate, watch him turn into a little dictator. I guess there are enough people in this country that love going back to the old days where you have to work over eight hours without getting paid extra, work seven days a week and work in unsafe, miserable conditions; while getting screwed by the company (no pension, pretty soon no health care) so the company can make an extra few bucks on you. And don't forget, with no regulation, they can also pee in your drinking water and poison your air causing damage to your family; but, hey, it's all for the good-WS and profits. The NWO where every country in the world is a corporate playground.

[HiPointDem]

77. baloney.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

23. Indiana voters went for President Obama in 2008

despite giving former Bush II Budget Director Mitch Daniels a second term as governor. Yeah, I know, voters work in mysterious ways sometimes.

My other thought too is that some people might have opposed Walker but didn't like the recall effort. I wouldn't put too much stock in pundits whom think that this election is a harbinger of things to come in November.

[wpelb]

95. It was also very close

It only takes a small number of voters voting a split ticket to produce some odd-looking results--sometimes.

[cali]

25. bullshite. this was the equivalent of people splitting

their vote. happens all the time, dear.

[Mayflower1]

28. Maybe those same exit polls are wrong about Obama winning too ?

Obviously, they were wrong about Barrett winning.

[cali]

22. every freakin' time we lose an election, someone says it was stolen

it's pathetic to make that claim with zero evidence.

[sharp_stick]

36. Of course they do

it's easier for people to believe that the bad guys stole it than it is to believe that they actually may have lost. This happens in every election and the loser in every election always has a group of supporters who will never believe that they legitimately lost.

It makes a lot more sense to just let it go and move on to the next one but it won't happen with some people.

[newspeak]

69. it's easier to believe that the election was stolen

than to believe there are enough ignorant people who love dictatorial, possibly corrupt dickheads; people who vote against their own interests (labor rights, civil rights, education). Like I've said before, watch what your power hungry governor does now, since he's got a small mandate.

[We Want Peace]

45. there is zero evidence this election is fair

Ever heard of the central tabulator that all votes go through?

Did the votes get counted by hand and posted at the precinct level?

I didn't think so.

[Capt. Obvious]

64. Checkmate!

[former9thward]

73. The votes are posted at the precinct level.

At every precinct there are poll watchers watching the vote count. Sorry to burst your conspiracy theory.

[Douglas Carpenter]

53. again I have to agree with you. It is sad, it is depressing. The rightwing may have outspent 7-1.

They certainly benefited from years of anti-union propaganda and a biased meda. Years of right-wing forces reshaping the political culture creating a more money-centric body politic and a more seflish society and pushing the Democrats to the right and the Republcans into insanity and all of this becoming mainstream have certainly taken their toll. But unfortunately, whatever the reasons - they did win. We have to face reality. Crazy conspiracy theories of the left are just as stupid and ignorant as crazy conspiracy theories of the right. At the balot box they did indeed win last night. It is sad. It is depressing. But it did unfortunately happen. Nutty thinking will not change that or prepare us for future important battles. To face reality is the first step in the effort to build a progressive majority.

[We Want Peace]

43. clearly- this doesn't pass the smell test

there sure are a lot of people quick to catapult the propaganda and manufacture consent

[GarroHorus]

50. The only people I see catapulting the propaganda are those making claims of a stolen election. n/t

[okieinpain]

79. lol, got proof. n/t.

[onehandle]

3. My guess is that these are inactive union members and straight out liars.

And morons. Can't forget morons.

[nanabugg]

9. My guess is it was those members of unions exempted from Walker's hit on unions.

Divide and conquer...the GOP did it well. He will get them the next time around...cause they still will have more budget needs.

[GarroHorus]

13. I tend to agree with you

Non-public employee union members with a grudge against government voted in favor of a guy who has already said he wants to tear down all unions.

So basically, Union members are tearing down unions with idiotic votes.

[newspeak]

72. yeah, well, hope those union members who voted for him

don't get screwed like reagan screwed the air controllers after they endorsed him.

[Blue_Tires]

21. Very true...

Even the most anti-labor extremist politician is smart enough to never, EVER touch the police unions...

[catbyte]

38. Daniels did in Ohio, didn't he?

[Dokkie]

33. I doubt it

cos even those union members should know that Walker is only biting his time before the takes care of their collective bargaining rights too. Watch him move after he is re-elected

[exboyfil]

35. Some observations from a private sector employee

A private sector wage worker (union or non-union) has more in common with a private sector engineer or middle manager than a public sector union member. Public sector union members can collectively bargain for jobs for services that are mandated by the state Constitution. A private sector wage worker has no such protection - their jobs can go away whenever the private sector closes it down (lack of sales, outsourcing, leaner competitor, etc).

In spite of the arguments I see on this board at least in our area the public sector total benefits package is starting to exceed the private sector equivalent.

In general the 36% are seeing public sector wage and benefit packages that are superior to their own while they are paying a large percentage of their income in taxes. While most of our wage employees do not have bachelor's degrees, they are skilled workers with considerable technical training. They probably view themselves as equivalent to teachers, and they know how valuable low deductible secure health insurance is worth.

That is why I can see 36% of union workers voting for Walker. Please don't flame me - I am merely stating what I see as their reasoning. I am not in a union (I am a technical worker), but this is what I hear from my union coworkers.

[slackmaster]

7. It'a about money

[edhopper]

12. I was in a Union

you'd be surprised how many Union people are Repugs who don't see how much the Unions have given them. The are many who buy into the right wing bullshit about greedy lazy workers and those "minorities" living on the government tit.

[GoCubsGo]

27. Yep. My idiot brother is one of them.

In fact, being a cop, he is one of those lazy workers living off the government tit. So are his wife and friends in the Fraternal Order of Police. Talk about a massive disconnect.

[catbyte]

39. They'll learn the hard way when their union is squashed

By then it will be too late, and I'm sure they will scream and cry like nobody's business.

We're all fucked.

Diane
Anishinaabe in MI & mom to Leo, Taz & Nigel, members of Dogs Against Romney, Cat Division
"Dogs Aren’t Luggage Even Though They Are Lower Life Forms--HISS!”

[frazzled]

46. My cousin is one of those union workers who votes strict Republican

Steelworkers, near retirement. I don't get it, but I know it's true.

No one ever said that people are rational.

[Freddie Stubbs]

16. Apparently not all union members sympathize with public employee unions

[tjwash]

17. Doesn't surprise me. My BIL retired after 20 years in a union. Is a rabidly anti-union teabagger.

He's fine and dandy with "living off of the socialist tax payer dole" for the rest of his life, he just thinks no one else should.

You see...it's DIFFERENT with him...

[Mayflower1]

31. Did he have a choice to join the union?

A lot of people who if given a choice, would not join the union. They are forced to and some resent that.

[edhopper]

32. They are idiots

they don't understand that without the Unions their pay would be much less and their benefits cut. Not to mention no job security.

[catbyte]

40. They are morons.

What do YOU think about unions? You seem a little bagger around the edges...

[Horse with no Name]

78. NOBODY is ever "forced" to join a union

nice try though.

[Sgent]

80. Maybe I'm wrong

but I thought that closed shops were fairly common in many parts of the country.

[KurtNYC]

18. Are the police and corrections officers (prisons) unionized in WI?

If yes, there is a big chunk of that 36%

[nebenaube]

47. yes

But they lost their collective bargaining right the first time around. It was the state troopers that were not disenfranchised.

[ananda]

19. Seriously?

That many union voters are .. literally .. insane and suicidal ???

[MoonRiver]

20. Welcome to the Banana Republic of America.

Every time one of these outrages occurs, I am one step closer to just washing my hands of it all. Democratic leaders do nothing to stand up for their constituencies, while Rethugs run roughshod over the rest of us. I am starting to believe that both parties have the same agenda. They just lie to their bases differently.

[catbyte]

41. I agree completely, MoonRiver

I am tired.
I am demoralized.
I am fed up.
I am so glad I am as old as I am because the way things are going this world will be a wholly corporate-owned hell hole but I will be too old to notice, or hopefully dead.

I hope this feeling passes, but right now I just don't see any hope anywhere.

I think I will just go and hang out with my cats.

Diane
Anishinaabe in MI & mom to Leo, Taz & Nigel, members of Dogs Against Romney, Cat Division
"Dogs Aren’t Luggage Even Though They Are Lower Life Forms--HISS!”

[MoonRiver]

58. I'm with you catbyte

only I'll be hanging with my little dog. Pets are the BEST therapy!

[PlanetBev]

83. Ditto me, Catbyte and MoonRiver

61 never looked so good. America is unrecognizable from my youth.

[MoonRiver]

92. Horrifying. I think we should start a movement.

There's no point but it might be entertaining! What shall we call it? 99%er Seniors?

[jody]

24. Don't confuse "public employee" union with "private employee" union

Nationwide there are:

105 million, private-sector workers, 7% union

20 million, public-sector workers, 37% union

It's plausible that the 36% figure you cite might mostly be private-sector union members.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

26. Obviously they don't care...

but they should. In the past 16 months thousands of Wisconsin union members dropped out of their representative union. There is an interesting tendency among Americans to believe the next guy is overpaid while they themselves are underpaid. So the parks workers think the teachers are overpaid and the teachers think the DOT workers are overpaid...etc. This seems to cut across all stratas...the CEO making $23 million thinks the guys who collect his garbage are overpaid....So some union members supported Walker because they believe the teachers were responsible for the recall effort and deep down inside they think teachers are overpaid.

You can never underestimate the foolish self-interest of the American electorate. People love low taxes...they never bother to think about for what those taxes pay. I feel badly for young people today who will face ever diminishing prospects and substandard services for the rest of their lives.

[newspeak]

70. yeah, well the media has aided in catapulting the propaganda

since many have lost their great paying jobs, now the plebes are to turn on each other, especially those who still have a decent job. Don't look at the CEOs who are paid obscene amounts of money (grossly overpaid compared to europe). No, you're supposed to pay attention to the other plebes. In order to make the country into a glorious, corporate ruled third world paradise, first you got to turn the plebes on each other. And, it's working like a charm.

[Canuckistanian]

30. I wonder what the ratio was for public and private sector union members

Because if it was mostly private sector members, they should have had a "Pastor Niemoller" moment. They're coming for YOU next.

[IndyPragmatist123]

34. Some union members are still Republicans

I know many union members that are Republicans. They don't really support the union and believe they would be fine without it. Also, there is a big difference between the support of public-sector unions and private-sector unions. I'm sure most of the 36% that supported Walker were private-sector union members.

[Skinner]

71. I think it's baffling that any union member would be a Republican.

Welcome to DU.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

75. They will eventually

get their chance to find out just how well they will do without it.

[lunatica]

42. They lie all the way up to the elections but suddenly when they win they're

telling the truth?

Why do so many people fall for this?

If it stinks like a dead fish under a hot Sun, and it looks like a dead fish then it's obviously a dead fish.

[FarCenter]

44. The only union member I know in WI is unemployed

It's not clear that the union hall hiring practices are helping him get a job.

[JCMach1]

51. 36% of Union members vote to slit their own throats...

I am sorry, but the stupidity BURNS...!

[ellie]

61. Nothing surprises

me anymore after Bush won in 2004. Yes, votes in Ohio may have been stolen, but in my mind, it should not have even been close. Kerry should have won in a landslide. Enough people thought idiot Bush was doing a good enough job to vote for him. WTF?

[Thrill]

62. Some people just don't like to change Administrations

in the middle of a term.

And maybe Barrett was just a shitty candidate??

[Capt. Obvious]

63. No he didn't

Those were just some of the stolen votes.

[dems_rightnow]

81. Those were answers from people that were asked questions.

Nothing at all to do with voting machines.

[Romulox]

74. Plenty of "Union for me, but not for thee" sentiment out there. It has consequences. nt

[HiPointDem]

76. baloney.

[sabrina 1]

82. That needs to be checked. What I read was that 'some family members of Union members voted for

Republicans. My family votes all over the place. I imagine that is true of everyone.

[Strelnikov_]

84. I thought it would be more like 50% of Union votes going for Walker n/t

[pintobean]

85. "38 percent of the vote among members of union

households", not union voters.
There's a big difference, but the truth doesn't stir as much emotion. So, why did you change it?

[GarroHorus]

86. I went with the Huffington Post line as it was when I linked it.

Forgive me, I should have changed it.

[pintobean]

89. You can still edit

but you haven't.

[GarroHorus]

91. Didn't realize that.

Doing so now.

[sudopod]

88. Do you not like unions, oh mighty Warmaster? nt

[GarroHorus]

90. Unions built this country during the 20th century.

I strongly support Unions even though I've been in IT management for most of my career (no unions anywhere I've worked in over 30 years). I come from a background of public employee union members (both parents) and would have had no chance of getting where I am today had unions not insured their pay and benefits. My father came from a non-union lower middle class background, though all of his friends growing up were in union coal mining families. My mother comes from a background of abject poverty and would have been in abject poverty had she not taken a job in the defense department and joined the union.

I just find it sick that union members have a tough time supporting unions. It is truly an example of voting against one's personal interests for no damned reason at all other than buying into the anti-union bullshit.

BTW, Horus sucks. Garro started the Grey Knights. The dichotomy is what I was going for in the name.

[wpelb]

94. It's "them" vs. "us"

It's easy to think of political elections as voting for either "them" or "us." My guess is that many union members in Wisconsin think of the union leadership as "them," not "us." Those people either voted for Walker (even if he was also one of "them&quot or they abstained.