This message was self-deleted by its author

[bravenak]

This message was self-deleted by its author (bravenak) on Sun Mar 20, 2016, 11:51 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[In_The_Wind]

1. Thanks for your apology, bravenak.

[Enrique]

2. you may not realize this

but not everyone thinks the way you do. A lot of people out here read what you wrote and thought "what does Jew have to do with it?"

And it wasn't being PC. They really mean it!

[Amimnoch]

15. If it's the same one I think it is, click the link to the article and look at the other replies.

Context brings into focus a more complete picture. Below is just a few of the posts (and this wasn't a long and drawn out sifting through replies to make the case, all of these are right there up top).

Pssst. Daniel: FORBIDDEN TRUTH ALERT - Check the most recent Gallup Poll on anti-Semitism. Blacks hate Jews. The group officially designated as being Victims Of Bigotry also despises gays and is by far the most misogynistic sector of American society (although apparently the anti-Semitism trumps the misogyny). The preceding has been an unauthorized departure from the approved societal narrative

Blacks in America are turning into our 'palestinians'. They're always angry about everything all the time forever.

They can always repatriate themselves with their ancestral homelands if they wish. I hear Zaire is nice.

On DU we have rules of engagement. Off site, where others aren't bound by the relative civility we're bound by here, it's not at all unusual for the rhetoric to escalate to a very obnoxious level (even more so than here).

Is it really so hard to see why someone who is AA would lash out when there's other replies like this?

The person who so gleefully found that little treasure of mud to sling did a most wonderful job of completely ignoring the rest, and went so far as to isolate it to just showing Bravenak's response isolated from the rest.

[Enrique]

19. yes i'm sure that filthy site was full of hatred toward blacks

and she added hatred toward Jews.

[Mosby]

185. Zionism is Jewish nationalism

It's the belief that Jews should be able to live in their ancestral homelands.

Virtually every Jew in the world is a Zionist as well as many non Jews like VP Biden for example.

Do you have a problem with the existence of Israel?

[JonLeibowitz]

242. My Jewish roommate does.

[oberliner]

387. A friend who "unfortunately leans Zionist" ?

Wow.

[Matt_in_STL]

190. Racism is okay when taken in context?

[Amimnoch]

193. Oh look a strawman.

Making an argument on a statement that wasn't made.

Good tactic.

[melman]

348. Not a strawman

We are reminded in the third sentence of this apology that the offending statement "was in response to" something awful. That's making excuses.

Later on, we're further reminded of all the ''static going on" that caused her to make these comments. More excuses.


In between we get all sorts of horseshit where she falls on the sword for her friends with that "Come after me. Leave them alone!" stuff.

This is a way of making the people that reacted to her comments the real villains. Not her. She is now the hero again.

[riversedge]

128. Forgiveness is a virtue.

[Enrique]

146. forgiveness doesn't make sense in this situation.

nor apologies.

If one has antisemitic attitudes, they need to work on changing them. And our response should be to insist on that. It's not a time for group hugs, imho.

[riversedge]

248. I have no room in my heart for your comments. bye

[840high]

299. +1

[Smarmie Doofus]

3. No. We don't ALL know what it was.

>>>I have said something, we all know what it was.>>>

It's important for you to *get* this part.

We DON'T know what's going on in your head. And the VAST majority of people here spend an *enormous* amount of time *NOT* thinking about it. (i.e whatever it was.)

That said, I'm sorry you are sorry for whatever you are sorry about.

Hopefully, you will find the forgiveness you seek, redemption and peace.

[Dragonfli]

115. It's about very brave antisemitism :

Quote# 117360

I cannot stand him. His fans are racists who run around calling blacks racist and wonder why we hate him and them. I don't even LIKE Hillary but I will vote for her just so his fans can feel the sne BERN that they have been passing out.
Look at the racist comments here. I did not know jews hated us blacks so much. Good to know. I will return it in kind. There are so few of them It's a wonder they have the gall to think about being racist against blacks.

Bravenak, Frontpage Mag 6 Comments [3/11/2016 4:32:30 AM]
Fundie Index: 12

It also fits a common Hillary Campaign pattern that encourages hatred and division, some posters have a real nak for it, and are a great asset to disunity, David Brock, and of course Hillary Clinton whom it is meant to help politically.

Any candidate that would actively try to divide Americans across racial and cultural lines

Then attempt to foster hatred of each group against the other is harmful not just to the process but to the innocent people they are trying to divide into racial political wars, even if it is only an attempt to do so temporarily (as they likely tell themselves), just until an election is won, it is deplorable behavior and often seen used by hate groups across the globe.

This is becoming a pattern from the Clinton Campaign.

Incredibly well-respected surrogates sent out to attack Bernie or his supporters, get some pushback, accuse Sanders and his supporters of racism and/or sexism for pointing out the smear isn't true. It's sickening and cynical and divisive. I expect this stuff from Repugs- this divisiveness from the Clinton camp is heartbreaking.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511300567#post4.

Brock is a big part of this (pit one poor race against another) in order to win victories designed to profit the wealthy at the expense of all the people that will suffer under their trickle down neoliberal policies which will harm all of us struggling people no matter the race, but those that hire them also have a history of agitating people to hate by race and so are just as, if not more, accountable for such deplorable tactics.

It is a tactic often used by the wealthy in order to keep the power and money while continuing to steal even more in the face of glaring wide spread wealth disparity across all racial and social lines, In war the tactic is called divide and conquer, the wealthy have throughout history done this at the point where the difference between the rich and poor becomes widespread and apparent.

A true leader on the other hand, one that wants to help all the people historically tries to bring all the people together to fight the aristocracy.

It is clear which candidate is following which tactic, just as it is clear which candidate is little more than the puppet of the wealthy and attempting to win yet more of their favor. Such candidates often acquire excessive wealth during their lapdog tenures practically rubbing it in our faces (how much wealth have the "public servants" the Clintons acquired again, and from whom?)

The honest candidate, not swayed by or wiling to be used by by an uncontrolled group that worships at the altar of greed often lives a relatively normal lifestyle, not depending on acquiring wealth in order to achieve their version of a happy life, again which candidate more closely represents this lifestyle?

I have told you of tactics as old as the existence of extreme wealth at the expense of others. In your hearts the signs of their use are evident, some would say axiomatic.

I have also told you of some common traits of leaders on the side of the populace.

There is enough for you to decide for yourself which side you are on. And who is on your side as well.


choose well.

(edited to add a few things)

[Smarmie Doofus]

130. Yeah. I figured it out further down-thread. "Hymietown" revisited. What a shock.

Well.... it's out in the open at least.

Thx.

[Dragonfli]

141. It was barely ever below the surface, ready to boil up, predicable as hell. /nt

[hfojvt]

223. I hate to point it out

but what is described there seems to be

the main tactic of progressives.

It's always about throwing those bombs - the R bomb, the S Bomb, the X bomb, the B bomb, the H bomb. (using the Somerby descriptor, I guess I might call them labels rather than bombs, but they do tend to carry some destructive power). We always seem to be about dividing the world into a) true believers (or Jets) and b) heretics (or Sharks) who are racist, or sexist, or homophobic, or xenophobic, or bigots, or antisemitic or Islamophobes, or all of the above.

Of course, it is a good and noble thing to oppose bigotry in all forms, and all of the people in those groups certainly have skin in the game when it comes to bigotry against their own group.

The trouble becomes all of the jumping at shadows and the quick trigger fingers on those bombs. Somerby has detailed some of this again and again. An article will be written, for example, showing that say 57% of Republicans believe X. And, of course we know that NO DECENT PERSON should ever believe X and therefore this proves that Republicans are all a bunch of bigots. The person who waves this flag at the Sharks, will not note that the same survey also showed that 35% of Democrats also believe X.

A more concrete example in recent days is all the swirling around about the crime bill of 1994. Hillary, of course, is apparently a huge racist because of some word she once used in a speech she once gave, and because she supported that crime bill which incarcerated so many innocent and pure people.

Never mind that a majority of the CBC also voted for that racist crime bill.

[All in it together]

324. Thanks Dragonfli for spelling this out so well

This is what we need to understand

[MH1]

4. For what it's worth,

I don't know what it was you said, but it is an honorable thing to apologize when you know you have hurt someone, so I want to thank you for stepping up.

As to going after someone's friends for what that one person said, well that is always wrong and I hope people won't do it.

[840high]

300. See reply #115.

[bravenak]

6. My friends called me to the carpet for my behaiviour

Last edited Sun Mar 20, 2016, 03:50 PM - Edit history (1)

They do not defend my words. That is how I know they are good people. When I screw up, they tell me.

An apology


I have said something, we all know what it was. I am sorry for what I said. No matter what it was in response to, it was wrong, and it was hateful and I am sorry.

More than being sorry for what I said, I am doubly so for the way my friends have all been tarred with my words. I hope they can forgive me. It is my fault and I am fully to blame for the extra harassment that you are experiencing. Please know that when I say things I do not mean out of pure anger and much ignorance, when I do that, I have failed. I have failed to meet my own standards and I feel terrible. I know that an apology is not enough for many, but I hope it will help begin the process of mending fences.

I should have done this sooner but I was hard to find the words that would be sufficient. I still have not found them.

Please, do not tar my friends with my brush. I am the only one to blame for my words. Please, I implore you to leave them be, and come after me, if that is your intention. Thank you.

To those hurt, I am sorry. To those offended, I am sorry. It is my job to stand up for marginalized groups, no matter what, regardless of any static going on, I am supposed to defend them, not add to their misery. I was wrong and I know it.

[surrealAmerican]

60. alright then.

I'm deleting my post. It was not very magnanimous of me to ask that.

I'm trying to accept your apology, but trust takes time.

[SCantiGOP]

81. Bravenak:

Your friends also have your back.
I have admired your passion and intelligence as I have engaged in these discussions the past few months.

I am part of that "angry old white man" demographic that is causing so much trouble in our country. I am proud and grateful to stand with my brothers and sisters on DU fighting for a better world. 45 years ago I fought literally in the streets; I hope this time we can fight - and win - together at the ballot box.

[bravenak]

84. Thank you very much. I need it.

[brer cat]

10. And it went right over your head.

This post was an apology by bravenak for something she said which you are free to accept or not. To expect her to now figure out and justify what her friends think is preposterous. If her friends support something you think is wrong, take it up with them. Piling on bravenak in this thread is bullying, and makes you look small and petty.

[FlaGranny]

24. Oh, that cat!!

I think you found my missing cat from years 14 years ago. She would not let me use the computer without similar antics. Looks like her too. She was tiny, only 5 pounds full grown, and she had doubled feet (extra paw on each foot). I still miss her.

[PeaceNikki]

20. None of her friends supported those words, but we support her.

She said some stupid, hurtful, hateful shit in response to stupid, hurtful hateful shit. And she's apologizing for that. And I forgive her for it.

[greatauntoftriplets]

59. I second that statement.

[etherealtruth]

23. NOBODY supported her words n/t

[femmedem]

7. Thank you. We all have blind spots; we are all learning.

Perhaps this will give us all a little less self-righteousness, and the ability to remember that out of anger or ignorance, we are all capable of saying things that are hurtful, bigoted, and demeaning even as we think we are standing up for justice. And with that knowledge, we can continue to stay in dialogue with each other even when we disagree.

[bravenak]

8. Thank you for accepting this apology

I agree. We all have blind spot and can say ignorant things. Hopefully it gives up an opportunity to grow, rather than to double down. I should have said something much sooner rather than let it continue to fester.

[Chemisse]

9. I'm not really sure what you said,

But I admire anyone who can admit an error and apologize for it.

[freedom fighter jh]

16. +1

It aint't easy.

[skepticscott]

11. I'm posting this at bravenak's request

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=46564

Context for the OP:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511533345

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1497565/60165323#comment_60165323

And to repeat from the link:

(Note to Jurors: Posting the writings of DUers from other places on the Web is not a violation of either the Terms of Service or the Community Standards of DU. It happens here fairly frequently -- essays by William Rivers Pitt on Truthout; writings by Steven Leser from 2008 which are on a very long thread here; posts which DUers or ex-DUers have posted on other sites; even earlier DU posts from DUers, such as comments during the 2008 election campaign, etc.)

[RedCappedBandit]

73. Why go to a right wing site to disparage left-wingers?

[AlbertCat]

12. I am more sorry than words can express

Sorry you got caught.

I'm sure your prejudices are still intact.

[bravenak]

13. People who are ashamed, apologize

Peope who are proud of themselves, the double down. Now, enjoy getting your fun in. I deserve it.

[skepticscott]

54. It's also true

that people who are shamed, apologize.

Which of the two you are remains to be seen.

[riderinthestorm]

85. There's a history of anti-semitism in the black community

which I've always found weird since the two groups have a lot in common with the oppression and discrimination they've faced.

[bravenak]

90. Nice broadbrushing of the ENTIRE african american community

That is the exact behaviour I am apologizing for and I thank you to take that somewhere else. I am trying to atone. This is not helpful and hurts other black posters for my actions.

[skepticscott]

95. Broadbrushing??

You mean like these statements of yours?

I cannot stand him. His fans are racists who run around calling blacks racist and wonder why we hate him and them. I don't even LIKE Hillary but I will vote for her just so his fans can feel the sne BERN that they have been passing out.
Look at the racist comments here. I did not know jews hated us blacks so much. Good to know. I will return it in kind. There are so few of them It's a wonder they have the gall to think about being racist against blacks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511533345

Speaking of doubling down...

[revbones]

318. "Doubling down" - exactly.

There is no repentance in that apology, and there is no real guilt or shame. Just sorrow that it was found.

[HERVEPA]

144. Poster did not say the whole black community. Said in the black community.

There's a difference.
And my observation, where it exists, it is generally with younger members of the black community, with a lack of a sense or knowledge of history.

Oh, and don't expect anyone to take it somewhere else. This is a discussion board and they can comment on how they feel about your apology.

And your tarring of Bernie and his supporters does make your apology suspect. You might want to think about your choice of words in your posts.

[840high]

304. You would know about broadbrushing.

[greymouse]

91. It always amazed me, as a woman in a "man's field" decades ago

that when a couple of times a Black guy was hired, I got the same attitude from him as I got from the White guys.

Bigotry is an amazing thing, and impervious to reason. Now that I am old, I see this with ageism.

That being said, I have no idea when the OP said. I don't know why it is that people posting on DU think everyone reads all their threads wherever they are.

[riderinthestorm]

94. Yes, ageism is another good example nt

[Spazito]

104. Your post says the same thing as bravenak's did only in reverse...

I will be looking to see the same response from DUers to your post as there is to bravenak and, hopefully, an apology for it as bravenak has apologized for hers.

[riderinthestorm]

116. Bravenak's apologizing for an anti-Semitic post

I'm only citing a historic fact.

Or are you going to insist Farrakhan for example isn't an out and out anti-Semite?

Im not into revisionist history.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/black98.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American%E2%80%93Jewish_relations

[Spazito]

125. Keep doubling down...

very disappointing, to say the least.

[H2O Man]

145. Jury results:

3-4 to leave it.

[riderinthestorm]

147. Jeez, it's history. Uncomfortable history for sure but real

I was trying for context and even provided links.



I'm not bumping this thread again. Thanks for the heads-up.

Peace

[etherealtruth]

14. I have to admit (and it is putting mildly) I feel disappointed and sad

I am glad you posted this and are facing this.

"It is my job to stand up for marginalized groups, no matter what, regardless of any static going on, I am supposed to defend them, not add to their misery."

I always believed this about you and I hope you find this deep within yourself and live your life (real and virtual) in accordance. you are smart and strong .... passionate and compassionate

Regarding your friends ... I have seen NO SUPPORT for "this" from anyone ... only sadness and disappointment (and some anger)

[bravenak]

17. Nobody does and nobody should support what I said

Me? They support me as a friend dealing with shit that they regret, but no, they do not agree and are rightly pissed at me.

[etherealtruth]

22. This is on you alone ....

I really respect that you are facing this ... and hoping you grow from it.

(forgive my preachiness ... I truly believe you are better than the issue at hand )

[Capt. Obvious]

21. As always, your sincerity shines through

[Divernan]

220. The proof will be in the pudding, i.e., future posts.

[SMC22307]

329. "Sent from my Obamaphone"

Obvious, indeed.

And knowing the OP's history, I'm not holding my breath.

[fasttense]

26. A famous commedian, Erma Bombeck, who knew she didn't have long to live

Reinforced and update a listing that explained all the things she would have done differently in her life if she had her life to live over.

One of those things was : She would have said she was sorry more often.

You are doing good.

[bravenak]

28. That makes me feel a bit better, thanks

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

27. Glad to see your apology

Maybe, we can all learn something from it. As a 62 year old female Bernie supporter, I have felt tarred by your brush many times, simply because I support Sanders.

I accept your apology.

[gordianot]

29. Knowing Bravenak from the past she is not anti Semitic.

In an exchange we shared sometime ago she more than proved herself not that she needed to prove anything. I am also a Sanders supporter and a long term Clinton critic willing to put aside my views to avoid Republican Fascism in its many forms.

[FlatBaroque]

32. LOL

[Jackie Wilson Said]

132. Why is someone laughing in your face for making this sincere, beautiful comment?

[gordianot]

202. The incident involved the defense of a holocaust survivor on DU.

I met several in person in my youth they all left a permanent impression on my Psyche, Bravenak was fierce in this persons defense. Someone can laugh all they want, I know the truth in that situation.

[Android3.14]

30. The first question to which I need an answer before I accept this apology...

Do you acknowledge that your statements, that Sander's supporters are racists and that Jewish people hate blacks, were more than just hurtful and offensive, but factually incorrect?

[Duckhunter935]

33. Well let's see the answer

It will be very telling as in the past when I asker her if she thought I was a racist, she would not give a straight answer.

[joshcryer]

39. Wrong.

[Duckhunter935]

163. What's wrong, she would not say yes or no

I think it us a simple question and a simple answer

[bravenak]

34. The statements I made in that post were incorrect

Not only that, they were ignorant and born from anger and absolutely nasty.


As to the fans? Some Are some are not. I think we can see that in the fact that the posts they made still stand and noone has apologized or even acknowleged the hurtful nature of calking us confederates, uninformed, ignorant, psychologically damaged, etc. Now, are al, his fans like this? No. Nobody ever said they ALL were. But the ones who said very racist thing were fully supported by many. Nobody supports what I said in the Hillary camp. Nobody.

Has I posted it here it would have no recs from anybody I know and I would have had even more of my friend tell me how upset and dissappointed they are in me. That is the difference. Hopefully, now that I have come clean with my actions and misdeeds, others can see where they were wrong too and make their own apologies and try to mend fences in their own ways.

[skepticscott]

50. You'd thought long and hard about these issues

before you made those posts. They were not just made up on the spur of the moment, in a fit of anger, nor can you plead "ignorance" about an issue like racism. They reflect your sentiments expressed many other times, just in a far nastier and less guarded way.

What's more likely? That your racist posts were just a one-time accident, or that you meant every word and still do, thinking that you could get away with posting that kind of crap, but are now frantically scrambling in the face of a harsh and entirely justified backlash to try to save what little reputation you still have?

[revbones]

241. Exactly!

This isn't an apology, it's just a cover-up attempt now that things have been pointed out.

[840high]

309. .^that

[SMC22307]

360. Very perceptive. (n/t)

[polly7]

112. I saw a realy ugly, antisemitic post on your other site, you didn't argue it

at all. No-one did, it got positive replies.

[bravenak]

124. You guys keep showing me that but admin deleted it begore I ever saw it

I have only seen it here.

[polly7]

127. I saw the timeline of those convos and other posts by you .......... you were there. nt.

[bravenak]

129. I never saw that thread

Only saw it here and that poster is not a du member if I remember correctly.

[polly7]

140. Actually, this is my screenshot.

And those posts were made before your other site even has an 'issues' forum or anything other than posting hatred against people here up yet. There were so few posts there yet - and all full of hate, I don't know how you would have missed it.

You've been calling so many people here ugly names and accusing them of things they've (I know for sure I've never) never, ever believed for one second. I didn't see any of your friends even mentioned wrt this post you made at that ugly site, so I'm not sure why most of your apology is for what they went through - never saw a mention of it towards anyone but you. Sorry, bravenak. You actually attacked me regarding my son, I'll never trust or respect a word from you again and I believe you really are full of all the hate you're projecting on to everyone else here.

[bravenak]

151. I never attacked you about you son

[polly7]

155. I can't even believe you just said that. No worries, I have it all saved. nt.

[bravenak]

156. If I did I would apologize

[polly7]

157. There's no 'if' about it. nt.

[bravenak]

158. Let's see

[Duckhunter935]

167. You might want edit

We can all disagree without the personal attack. Don't sink to there. Level. Remember, they had to get the rules changed.

[polly7]

173. No I won't edit fuck all. nt.

[Duckhunter935]

176. Ok, i expect it will be hidden

If course due to the rule changes pushed by themthem, you will not ever earn a vacation, lol

[polly7]

177. Hey ....... "I just spoke in anger". nt.

[awoke_in_2003]

266. Zing. nt

[SMC22307]

396. "Remember, they had to get the rules changed."

Some animals are more equal than others.

[Duckhunter935]

405. No one here are animals

[Duckhunter935]

271. FYI

On Sun Mar 20, 2016, 11:33 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

No.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7699059

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Clearly she's in pain, but "So .................... FUCK YOU" is absolutely over the top. Especially in context of a thread on which the poster is looking to heal and apologize for previous hate and hurt.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sun Mar 20, 2016, 11:39 AM, and voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sorry, but bravenak and Steve Leser did, in fact, make fun of her grief over her son's death. It went on for quite some time and they got away with it. I'm not going to punish someone for pushing back against being viciously bullied, whether or not someone has made an insincere apology.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

[840high]

312. Bad hide. Juror #3 - thank you.

[beam me up scottie]

358. You threw her dead son in her face, I saw you do it.

It was cruel and heartless and completely unnecessary.

[bravenak]

365. Show me

She threw him in steves face thats why she refused to show it. Because her posts were hidden for how Vile they were. She is no innocent at all. Neither are u. You are the last person I would lose one bit of sleep over and you know that. May as well go get yourself a series of link to bug somebody else with BMUS.
If you want to spend a thousand hours on du saving links and attacking people with specious allegations I cannot stop you. I would tell you how u look but, why bother? It's not like you'd reflect and stop, so why not go try this on somebody who aint got enough street smarts to know what type of game you are playing. I know. See though you.

[beam me up scottie]

382. I'm not the one who was caught posting vile anti-Semitic hate speech at a right wing site.

It's not the first time either, you were called out for using dog whistles here and attacked us for objecting.

You're always the victim, always have an angle, even now you're playing this up and using it as an excuse to attack Bernie supporters.

Nothing is ever your fault.

No I will not exploit polly's son to score points against you. You know what you did and you have to live with it.

If you want to spend a thousand hours on du saving links and attacking people with specious allegations I cannot stop you. I would tell you how u look but, why bother? It's not like you'd reflect and stop, so why not go try this on somebody who aint got enough street smarts to know what type of game you are playing. I know. See though you.

What do you think you've been doing since Seattle?

What do you think you've been doing with the Stockholm syndrome post?

You don't have the right to attack people who call out your anti-Semitic hate speech. You want us to forget all about it when for months you've been throwing Stockholm syndrome in our faces.

Willy T said something awful and so did you, don't blame people for noticing the similarities.

[bravenak]

383. Show me bmus unless you made it up

[beam me up scottie]

391. Right here:

bravenak

134. I don't not need to lie. People smear themselves.

I cannot get that op to load. It is too long for my bandwith.
AK does not have the best internet yet.

Let me guess? About the relationships between certain women and other women and how difficult it would be for them to find girlfriends? It is the way those women attack feminism as weak and something beneath them, they are so much stronger and better than us weak feminists. That is why.
And as the mother of a dead child myself, I hate to watch people use that pain to attack others. I have seen it and it hurts. I have done it and hated myself later. Having close girlfriends helped me make it though. I do not trust women who are so very hard on other women.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251779970#post134

You accused her of using her pain to attack others.

You did it to wound her, it was vicious and cruel.

But I'm sure you'll say you were provoked, right? And just spoke in anger. That's your go to excuse when you're caught.

[nadinbrzezinski]

398. WOW!!!!!

[beam me up scottie]

400. You know I'll be the first to admit I like sparring on DU.

It gets heated and nasty and I've said some things I regret but there are some things you don't touch, some places you don't go, some pain you leave alone.

Using a mother's pain to attack her is despicable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

401. Yup

sadly though, not surprised.


I wish I could be.

[Duckhunter935]

411. Yes it is

She really should apologize, but she never really issues a real apology. It is always someone elses fault. It is always racial too for some reason.

[Duckhunter935]

407. Just sickening

[Duckhunter935]

165. She all but called me a racist

I asked her outright and she will not answer but just deflects

[polly7]

166. It's been strategy from day one.

She's played a lot of people.

[Duckhunter935]

171. Yep

Bait to try and get hides, I do not fall for it and call that crap out. They run away then.

[revbones]

244. That has been a rather repetative habit

and now the truth is out and should completely delegitimize all those previous attacks, but I'm better many will ignore the hypocrisy here.

[beam me up scottie]

363. That post was up for months and they still claim it wasn't anti-Semitic.

Not one of them objected and when it's posted here they alert on it because they don't want anyone to know what went on at that site.

[Android3.14]

161. Thank you.

For many-many months now I have had your account on ignore, which was why I was unable to see this response until now. I have taken you off of my ignore list and wish you more open and satisfying experiences as you interact with people on the web.

I accept your apology.

[revbones]

227. To most people coming clean and being busted are 2 different things...

That's a huge bowl of hypocrisy in front of you given your actions and accusations here on DU.

[bravenak]

250. You have not even been here enough to know much about me

This apology is to the Jewish community especially. And then to the du community. Acceotance is not necessary. I know apologies are selfish in a way. I feel better for doing it, I am grateful so many from the Jewish community are willing to accept it. I hate that I hurt them. It was wrong.

[revbones]

256. How long someone has been here has no bearing on the wrongness your own actions.

See, even now you attempt to discredit and deflect rather than truly apologize and "take your lumps" as you put it elsewhere.

I'm sorry if you thought a half-hearted apology might allow you to skate by without any criticism.

And now limited your apology even further, given how you've hypocritically antagonized others is particularly egregious.

[bravenak]

258. Oh please. You are doing this all up and down the thread

I can tell the difference between those hurt and those who are just dojng this for thrills. You enjoy it too much to be real. Have a good one. Ignoring you now since you are so deceptive.

[revbones]

259. Nice. Turn your half-hearted apology into an attack.

Am I happy your hypocrisy has been exposed. Yes, I'll admit it.

In my short time here I've watched you bait and accuse many people. It's nice to have that hypocrisy shown to all.

[bvf]

373. It didn't take very long, did it?

Last edited Sun Mar 20, 2016, 03:34 PM - Edit history (1)

Old habits die hard. Mindsets, harder still.

[bravenak]

375. Shoulda BEEN on ignore

Let me fix that

[revbones]

379. Cool. I can still comment on the hypocrisy though. :)

And maybe that will mean I won't get any more thinly veiled cheap insults as comments, or < 7 word inane replies. Hope a lot of you guys get ignored too - then you probably won't have all those hypocritical accusations of racism, misogyny, bigotry, etc... to deal with.

[bravenak]

380. Let me fix you too

[revbones]

381. Yay! nt

[bvf]

413. Gee, I guess I'll go out

and post a bigoted tirade somewhere. You know--to let off steam or something.

[UtahLib]

286. Bravenak

Please, the people who continue to harass, bait and bully you are not worth the effort of a response or continually having to explain yourself to them, personally. By refusing to accept your apology and instead doubling down on their personal antipathy, their agenda could not possibly be more clear.

[bravenak]

292. You are absolutely right

[joshcryer]

38. Do you accept the apology given the comprehensive reply?

[Android3.14]

46. As I said, not until she acknowledges the statements were factually incorrect

Otherwise, her apology, at best, means nothing. Do you acknowledge the statements were factually[/] incorrect?

[joshcryer]

49. "The statements I made in that post were incorrect"

Are you fucking serious? Seriously? She LITERALLY said that. No words.

[Android3.14]

113. Where did she say that? Your quotation is not a link.

It's not in the OP.

So yes, I am fucking serious, and you can climb down from your high horse.

[PeaceNikki]

117. Right here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027698667#post34

It was a direct reply to you so I'm not sure how you missed it.

[Android3.14]

148. Circular linking to mislead? Your link does show what you say it does

Your link does not show a direct reply to me.

For this to be an actual apology, Bravenak must acknowledge that her statements were not only offensive and hurtful, but factually incorrect. That is. she must explicityly acknowledge that she disavows that Sander's supporters, per se, are bigots and/or that Jewish people, per se, hate black people.

The text at your link fails to show this fundamental component to the apology. Her OP only acknowledges the statements were hurtful, not that she was wrong in point of fact.

Until then, the apology is just a veiled insult.

[PeaceNikki]

149. Post #34 is a direct reply to you.

[Android3.14]

160. Mea culpa. I had Bravenak on "ignore"

I'm sorry. I have now seen the post and will respond appropriately.

[ScreamingMeemie]

205. Neutral observation: If you had brave on ignore, how can you see this thread?

[Android3.14]

296. Even on ignore, a user can see OPs from ignored users

Last edited Sun Mar 20, 2016, 02:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Responses to OPs from users on your ignore list, however, do not appear.

[ScreamingMeemie]

302. Oh wow... I didn't know that.

Thanks.

I have several people on ignore, thanks to the primaries, and I hadn't noticed that.

[Android3.14]

323. I noticed it when...

I had a particularly obnoxious and prolific person stalking me. I kept seeing their OPs and finally figured out why.

[ScreamingMeemie]

338. That kind of defeats the purpose.

I admit, I track on DU with one eye usually and hit ignore (these are temp ignores) when I see idiocy. I couldn't even tell you the names on my list for the most part. They just said something really outrageous in support of their candidate (I have supporters from both sides on there) so I hit the X. I'm a reactionary right now.

[Android3.14]

362. You'd think so, but I guess the really ugly stuff

happens in the subthreads and not typically, or at least overtly, in the OP.

I sure hope bravenak recognizes the cruel irony of her postings regarding racism and makes an effort to compensate for the unhelpful bias.

Take care ScreamingMeemie.

[riderinthestorm]

69. Bravenak is only apologizing for that specific post. Android is asking her about the many others

where she's made similar comments.

I too notice bravenak's inability to acknowledge that those too were wrong.

[bravenak]

71. Why not fill the thread up with all of the rest of them and you all discuss them

Then do your own inventories and see if you meet that standard you set for me. Enjoy yourself doing it too. I know you will.

[joshcryer]

72. Wrong.

Re-read the thread.

[mcar]

118. Shall we start making a list of hurtful posts made by DU members?

It will take a good while.

It takes a strong person to publicly admit a mistake and sincerely apologize. The gracious move would be to accept it and move on.

[merrily]

268. As gracious as Bravenak has been in scores, maybe hundreds of threads and pms?

Maybe Will Pitt posted POSUCS once and apologized for it. Search DU for that comment and see how many hundreds of times and how many years it was used not only against Will Pitt, but also against people who rec'd his threads or failed to attack him. No one just graciously accepted Will's apology and moved on. They drove him off the fucking board and then piled on after that. Same for MannyGoldstein and his gefilte fish post for which he apologized. Search gefilte fish and see how graciously and quickly people moved on after his apology.

It may take a lot of time for you to cull the hurtful posts of many DUers, but it would also take me a lot of time to cull just the hurtful posts and pms the OP has made all by her lonesome.

[skepticscott]

41. I wouldn't hold my breath

I suspect you'll get a lot of "I apologized, what more do you want?"

[joshcryer]

44. See post #34. You were wrong.

Shameful.

[skepticscott]

51. See my post 50

Try again. Or keep defending a racist if you like.

[joshcryer]

57. Wrong.

That poster was timed out from DU repeatedly. Look at her transparency page. There's nothing in there that is hide worthy.

Forgiveness is a good thing. You're wrong about this. This is the second OP the poster has made asking for forgiveness.

[skepticscott]

68. Apologies are easy

And when done under duress, meaningless. The question is, have her attitudes actually changed, and will she stop posting racist crap? Will she post as stridently to correct what she claims to now recognize as lies?

That's the true test of a sincere apology.

[bravenak]

70. Scott. You do not have to accept it

Others can read a decide for themselves.

[skepticscott]

77. Except they couldn't

until what you actually were apologizing for was posted. Something you conveniently left out of both of your "apologies".

As I said, apologies are easy, but meaningless when made under duress. The question is, will you stop trying to convert other people to your racist point of view concerning Jews, and will you work as hard to correct the lies you posted (and now admit were lies) as you did to post them in the first place?

Your call.

[bravenak]

80. You are just making stuff up at this point and being deceptive

[skepticscott]

99. Bullshit

You can't point out one thing that I've made up or lied about. If you could, you would have in this post. You're just flinging crap now and hoping something sticks, but all you've got is empty flailing.

[joshcryer]

74. Out of touch.

[skepticscott]

78. Empty, meaningless non-response

Try again.

[joshcryer]

82. Yawn.

[heaven05]

181. wow!

a perfect human. Very rare. Now to get real. I have read countless hateful and racist words on here describribing certain groups of people in this society by 'liberals' and 'progressives on this forum. Even rarer than a perfect human are apologies coming from these people who revel in making sure others see their ignorance. Geez!!!!

[skepticscott]

187. Silly straw man

Here's your question..does someone have to be "perfect" to not post racist crap like this in the first place?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511533345

Try again.

[heaven05]

192. right, but I know your game

been dealing withit for decades now and it remains the same. Preferred blindness in the face of truth not palatable to the ones who deny their own imperfections. No. You can keep trying to smear and all that happens is, the tar is splashing and COVERING you. Have a good Sunday and no matter what you say, I have peeked your program because of 50 years of seeing said program. It has remained the same. No response necessary.

[skepticscott]

214. No, you don't know "my game", because there isn't one

And I'm not smearing here, unless you think that posting someone's own words is "smearing" them. Who knows, maybe you do...you wouldn't be the first person here to try that dodge.

[heaven05]

222. at least I saw the intelligence and the integrity

of an apology for some words that could possibly, by some, be construed as hateful and possibly bigoted. Like I mentioned, many hateful and racist people on here don't apologize and used to get a jury to give them a FREE pass on their racism, bigotry and sexism. I read the statement. Okay. Not dodging just a realist about the human condition and sometimes frailty when trying to convey ones thoughts on said condition. I don't hate her or expect perfection in this day of the most vile cadidate rising out of the ashes of WW2 who can't wait to put AA back into obvious slavery and to wall out others.

[1StrongBlackMan]

169. Some Bernie supporters are racist/have expressed racist sentiment ...

that is factually correct ... So she has nothing to acknowledge there.

[Duckhunter935]

172. It is a minority right?

[1StrongBlackMan]

180. That depends ...

Take DU for the universe ... If you are talking about the number of Bernie supporters that have made racist statements, YES, they are in the absolute minority.

But if you consider the silence of Bernie supporters on the racist statements of other Bernie supporters and the defense of those racist statements by Bernie supporters, then, NO, they would be a "silent majority".

[Jackie Wilson Said]

194. This never ending tiresome argument where an observer of racism must ALWAYS use the word

"some" when referring to white people, because their god damn feelings might be hurt.

Jesus this is getting old.

White people created racism, it is their job to end it.

Stop pretending otherwise.

[Duckhunter935]

199. So you are saying all whites are racist?

That is just plain sickening

[Jackie Wilson Said]

200. There it is AGAIN...where in the HELL did I say that?

Why are your feelings hurt when racism is discussed, why do YOU Have to be ABSOLVED whenever it is discussed?

[Duckhunter935]

203. Just reading your post

Your words not mine

[Jackie Wilson Said]

206. No, you obviously did NOT read what I wrote or we wouldn't be arguing.

Unless you need to be absolved, personally, every time racism is discussed.

White people created racism in America, all white people in America are responsible for ending it.

Period.

[1StrongBlackMan]

208. LOL ...

White people created racism, it is their job to end it.

But only "some" of them.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

211. Touche of the day, uh huh.

Do all white people reading this understand that racism is 100% created (in America, is different in different places) by white people and can ONLY be resolved by white people?

[1StrongBlackMan]

216. LOL ...

I'm not white; but, I get the impression that white people care more about putting more money in their pockets, then resolving the racism that has them able to look downward.

[Duckhunter935]

195. Again, love how you want it both ways

It is a minority. I could say the exact same about the anti-jewish comments and racists comments made by the Hillary supporters. I do not Remember ever seeing a supporter of hers condemn them.

[Matt_in_STL]

184. She didn't say "some"

She broadbrushed all Bernie supporters. Either she stands by that or she clarifies.

[1StrongBlackMan]

196. To this I will offer the "SOME" is implied ...

as with any generalized statement.

[Matt_in_STL]

198. Then let her clarify that and make an apology for the broadbrush

[Duckhunter935]

204. Let's see if she actually does

[Duckhunter935]

201. Then it should be stated

When it is not, it means ALL

[1StrongBlackMan]

213. LOL ... I would offer the ...

When it is not, it means ALL

applies for those trying to deflect. Few thinkers take generalized statements as absolutes.

[thesquanderer]

339. re: "Few thinkers take generalized statements as absolutes."

Fine, she didn't mean "all," she meant "most." Does that make it better?

Saying that "as a rule," these things are "generally" true (whether about Jews or Sanders supporters) is the issue. If she merely meant "some" (in either case), she would not be guilty of what she's apologizing for in the first place. But that meaning doesn't align well with the tone of what was written.

[1StrongBlackMan]

345. No ...

Fine, she didn't mean "all," she meant "most." Does that make it better?

She was referring to those for which the generalized statement applies ... and you know that.

[thesquanderer]

361. If she was not putting forth that she thought these things applied as a general rule...

...then where is the broadbrushing she explains that she is apologizing for (see post #90)?

The statements did seem like broadbrushing to me, and it sounds like their author agrees.

[bravenak]

377. Damn straight

Could not have said it better!!

[melman]

389. Wait

You have to be Jewish to be offended by antisemitism? Uh, no. I don't think so.

[1StrongBlackMan]

397. LOL ...

No ... every liberal should be offended by all forms of bigotry. But do you, as a non-Jew, deserve an apology? Fuck no.

[Duckhunter935]

412. That is the biggest load of hogwash

I have heard on a long time. I guess if I am not black, I can not be offended by racist comments then.

[thesquanderer]

410. Why not apply to the other group equally?

i.e. would your perspective equally be represented by this altered version of that exchange?

Are you a Sanders supporter? Do you acknowledge that there are Sanders supporters that are bigoted towards Black people?

If the answer to both questions is "Yes" ... then, she was not talking to, or about you ... and the apology applies and is appropriate. {although in this case, none was offered}

If the answer to the first question is "Yes", but the second question is "No", then, .she was referring to you and no apology is warranted.

If the answer to the first question is "NO", then ... welcome to the pile on and fuck them pile

(p.s. - to put this in its proper context, in case you didn't see it, my post about why the two groups should be treated similarly in this discussion is at post #183.)

[melman]

376. Nope

Look at the original comment.

[img][/img]

Who's "them"? You know exactly who.

[1StrongBlackMan]

393. I did ...

and I know Brave ... you are mistaken.

[Duckhunter935]

415. I know her by her postings

We are all racists to her. She can not say we are not. Very sad in my opinion.

[thesquanderer]

270. If that's true...

...if she only meant SOME Bernie Sanders are racist, then why can't the other part be as easily excused by SOME Jews hate blacks? Since no doubt there must be some Jews who are bigots, no apology should be necessary there either, right?

Similarly, she talked about hating Sanders fans, and the intent to return the perceived Jewish hatred as well.

How do you determine that one requires an apology, but the other is perfectly fine? Or do you feel that no apology was needed for any of this?

[1StrongBlackMan]

335. While I applaud Brave's self-reflection ...

I am not will to parse this shit ... so, no ... I do not think an apology was necessary. The people she was referring to (i.e., those bigoted towards Black folks) know who they are, and do not desire an apology; the people the people that are not bigoted towards Blacks folks AND acknowledge that there are Jewish folks that are bigoted towards Black folks, know that she was not talking to, or about them, and don't require an apology; and, the folks that are merely looking to pile on ... well ... fuck them.

[thesquanderer]

343. I appreciate the consistency of your position.

I guess that's what it comes down to... either both groups deserve an apology, or neither does. Your perspective that neither does is arguably a defensible position that is at least internally consistent.

[1StrongBlackMan]

350. I you misconstrued what I have said ...

Those that acknowledge bigotry deserve an apologoly ... those that don't, don't ... and those that are full of shit (i.e., see an opening to attack Brave for reasons beyond her ill advised statement) fuck them.

[bravenak]

347. This is so not for those people

It is for the people who actually were hurt. They accept and move on just like we have to do with NO APOLOGY. These others? They think piling on will shut me up but they have lost their natural minds if they think that. Done is done and after today, I'm moving right on. I know I owe nothing but people were starting to harass anybody with melanin content and I needed to stop letting this shit fester. I feel better for doing it. Look at the people enjoying this shit and check the rec lists of the most anti black ops and there is a connection. Use this thread to get an ignore list filled up.

All the lamenters of dear departed willyt who refused to even try to fix their lips to say he was wrong are the main one racing around to get attention.

[1StrongBlackMan]

357. Exactly ...

All the lamenters of dear departed willyt who refused to even try to fix their lips to say he was wrong are the main one racing around to get attention.

And I say, fuck their opportunistic asses ... they neither can require, nor deserve an apology, as their grievance is not you ill advised, and apologized for, comment; but, your anti-Bernie, and for convenience, your anti-willyt stance.

So let me be clear ... fuck them.

[bravenak]

368. They should know

That I could give a fuck about an opportunist. Let people show their entire ass today. Laugh ur black ass off.

[melman]

291. To this

I will offer lolfuckinglol. No it's not.

[Android3.14]

298. I will give your response the thought it deserves.

...moving on.

[1StrongBlackMan]

341. LOL ... As will I give your response the thought it deserves ...

... LAUGHING, then moving on.

[FlatBaroque]

31. This thread could use more race baiting

too soon?

[bravenak]

36. A bit too soon. Give it a day or so

[joshcryer]

35. Thanks for posting in GD.

Really shows you mean it. I forgive. No worries.

[bravenak]

37. Thank you, Josh

[Thinkingabout]

40. A strong person can look at their actions and know when improper actions

Have occurred, admit their wrongs, apologize for their wrongs and become greater. You will be greater.

[revbones]

245. It would be nice if that were the case

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be. This seems more done out of panic to quickly avoid being ostracized for such blatant hypocrisy.

[Thinkingabout]

276. We are not on the same page at all. I did not indicate any of the things you have posted.

[revbones]

282. I don't think I argued that we were on the same page.

I said "It would be nice if that were the case" in reference to your statement, but continued "Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be".

Given your DU posts, I would not even presume that we agreed the sky was blue and hope my continued explanation suffices to show I was in disagreement.

[Thinkingabout]

333. I posted what I posted, I have not solicited anyone to rewrite my post.

[revbones]

337. What the heck are you talking about???

I just commented on it and indicated disagreement. Perhaps re-reading might help.

[CTyankee]

42. I am not sure I know what this is about but I gather some hints in the responses.

I usually don't get into these internecine fights as I find them troubling and often self defeating. But I know that people can and do decide to do the right thing and it has been my experience that admitting error and asking for forgiveness was good for my soul.

I hope for better days for us all. Thanks, Bravenak...you are brave, indeed...

[kracer20]

43. No idea what you said, but the first thing I thought...

Is that there is a ton of blaming entire groups for what one or two of their members have said, and that needed to stop a long time ago.

[bravenak]

45. Yes there is

[Dustlawyer]

47. Not sure what it was exactly other than some excerpts which were posted above.

I am glad that you apologized for some apparent rasicim you posted on other sites. Many people do not feel the need to apologize anymore. The real test is whether it changes the behavior, I hope so.

I wanted to use this opportunity for something I have been thinking about in relation to you, and a few others on this site. It seems that most (but not all) of your posts are negative to Bernie rather than positive to Hillary, or more importantly, lack a discussion of the issues and why you think your candidate is the better one. We all, myself included, could use more discussion of issues and policy of our candidates rather than attacks on members who disagree with you. We all have unique backgrounds and insight that can help in discussing policy. All here at DU could use more of this than the "gotcha" posts. It is not always easy, I know that from personal experience.

The fact that you can recognize a problem and be big enough to admit and apologize for it is a great start! I look forward to debating issues and candidates with you in the future, and maybe we can both learn some new things.

I was initially chosen to be a juror on WillyT's post that got him banned. He was a big Bernie supporter and has posted many things that I liked and agreed to. I felt that, like a responsible prospective juror in court, there are some types of cases where our beliefs, background, opinions, make us the wrong juror for some type of cases. I excused myself because I would have trouble being objective in deciding the outcome. I take jury service here every bit as important as I consider it in a case I am trying. I hope WillyT has regrets about the tone and content of his final post as he cannot apologize here if he chose to. I am glad you chose to, your slate is clean with me. I hope we can all try to remember that all of us here have many things in common just like we have differences in candidates.

For myself, the issue of campaign finance (bribes) is my hot button, over-riding issue. I am sick and tired of living under corporate rule where most of the issues we discuss here will not be solved until we get the money TPTB use to control our government, judiciary, and media out of the picture! We should be able to unite under this issue so that we can all win! Through my profession I see how the corporations have written all of the laws to their benefit, screwing injured workers and their families. While the justice system is slanted against people of color, it is slanted heavily in favor of corporations against individuals and getting worse.

[Bonobo]

55. Lovely.

Forgot about the Jews who DIED fighting for civil rights for black people. Fucking troll.

[bravenak]

61. Yeah. Now they wanna keep coming with this crazy bullshit all damn day

I bet it's just a gigglin and laughing and loving this shit.

[kdmorris]

86. Jury results

On Sun Mar 20, 2016, 09:54 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

Yeah. Now they wanna keep coming with this crazy bullshit all damn day
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7698817

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

please ban this troll already

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Mar 20, 2016, 10:05 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm a little confused about whether this was an alert on the correct person. She's responding to Bonobo's response to someone who's now showing name removed. I didn't see what they said, but it apparently got Bonobo and bravenak to agree on something, so it must have been absolutely horrid.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter, Bravenak was responding to a troll that is stalking Bravenak all over the board this morning and MIRT has now banned twice. The troll is a racist/anti-Semitic troll. Your alert on Bravenak is not warranted. Thanks. Signed, BooScout
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I do observe this poster being frequently abusive and troll-like in many threads. It is good to take a note of this post and report it as an example. Leave it so everyone can see his/her behavior. My understanding is that banning someone from the board is different from hiding a comment.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Grow some thicker skin

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[PeaceNikki]

89. Juror #2 gets it. That was a horrendous troll who's registered three times to post

horrific white supremist hate speech.

That alert is evidence of how bad the alert stalking is getting.

[kdmorris]

92. LOL I was juror #2

I figured it must be absolutely horrid.

[PeaceNikki]

100. You are correct. I'm sure it'll be back.

[revbones]

269. pobrecita

Is that the correct usage? Just checking since I thought your infamous and overused reply might be appropriate.

[Bonobo]

58. Well said! nt

[joshcryer]

79. Hey.

You know I intended to self delete that stupid post, right? I'm just saying. Still irks me for fucking that up.

[Bonobo]

168. You could have PM'ed me you know.

I don't hate you, Josh.

[Duckhunter935]

417. And another 6-1 hide

I guess this must be another case of alert stalking and she is the innocent victim again

[Orrex]

388. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service (juror #6)

Mail Message
On Sun Mar 20, 2016, 07:05 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Fucking hell, you found this thread too?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7698804

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"you fake piece of shit" ... appalling language used in a personal attack. This poster has been given a greenlight by Skinner to spew nasty race-baiting screeds. It's up to the jury system to insist in civil behavior.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Mar 20, 2016, 07:13 PM, and the Jury voted 6-1 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
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[Zen Democrat]

62. Your first post is anti-Semitic and divisive. Not an auspicious beginning for you at DU.

[dragonfly301]

52. I appreciate your apology

as the mother of two jewish sons who were raised not to be racist and to always consider the plight of those who have been abused and disenfranchised, I would hope that they would consider blacks as an ally in the fight against the oppressors - I hated that you were driving a wedge between them.

In a few weeks we will be gathering at the table and reading the story of the Jewish flight from slavery (which while horrendous was just a precursor to the horror of the Holocaust) if you lived on the east coast, I'd invite you over to share some matzoh. Peace.

[bravenak]

67. I am sorry and thank you for accepting

[Indepatriot]

53. I missed this dust up, but it's not exactly shocking.

As is often the case, those crying "hater" and "bigot" or "sexist" the loudest are those with those same toxic tendencies in their own hearts. Smearing folks with those accusations, time and again, then showing your true colors to be exactly those you profess disdain for, is some very disturbing stuff. Although not a fan of you political views, I generally thought you a person of integrity. Clearly, I was wrong. I'll end with a response we saw here time and again while the smearing of Sanders took place...Not. Good. Enough.

[Ed Suspicious]

65. Not good enough, indeed.

[bravenak]

66. Ok. Then this thread is not for you.

Only to those who want to read it.

[Indepatriot]

87. Apologizing only to those who are willing to immediately forgive isn't apologizing at all.....

It's self-serving damage control. Stop digging.

[bravenak]

88. I apologize to all

But only those with grace enough to forgive will accept. I can do nothing for the others.

[Indepatriot]

98. You said this thread was not for me. Despite it being GD.

You smeared Bernie supporters with vile accusations, then when all is not immediately forgiven, suggest it is I who am lacking grace. So much for reflection, growth, and sincerity..... Stop. Digging.

[bravenak]

101. This thread is not an apology to Bernie supporters

It is to Jewish (especially, please forgive me, even though I am an asshole) people AND everybody who I Offended

[skepticscott]

106. You offended Sanders supporters deliberately and specifically

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511533345

I cannot stand him. His fans are racists who run around calling blacks racist and wonder why we hate him and them. I don't even LIKE Hillary but I will vote for her just so his fans can feel the sne BERN that they have been passing out.

So yeah, you do owe them a specific apology, and to correct your lies as publicly and stridently as you spewed them in the first place.

[Indepatriot]

108. So, you're standing by "His fans are racists who run around calling Blacks racists".....really?

You're NOT apologizing for that? OK then...... the doubling down on that is duly noted. Good luck with that whole "growing from this" thing. I gotta go, the latest issue of White Racist Hillary Hater Monthly came in the mail yesterday, and I've not had time yet to peruse it. Peace.

[Duckhunter935]

419. So true

[thesquanderer]

183. So this is only a partial apology.

You said in post #90, broadbrushing an entire group of people is "the exact behaviour I am apologizing for."

You broadbrushed two groups. Jews ("I did not know jews hated us blacks so much" etc.) and Sanders supporters ("His fans are racists" etc.).

Your post was filled with hate toward both groups.

Why does one broadbrushed group deserve an apology, but not the other?

You've even gone out of your way to make clear that you're not apologizing to Bernie supporters (the subject line of the post I'm replying to is "This thread is not an apology to Bernie supporters&quot , essentially doubling down on that one.

My feeling is that both thoughts are offensive, and here's how your apology--sincere as I believe it is--strikes me. You recognize that anti-semitism is unacceptable, and you recognize that most people here believe that to be the case as well, so it is easy for you to see the problem with that part of the post. But here on DU, you happen to also be somewhere with a group of people who believe that broadbrushing Bernie supporters is perfectly okay, and will even have your back if you do the same. That doesn't make it right, any more than broadbrushing Jews is okay if you do it on a site that happens to be full of anti-semites.

When I first read your post, I had no idea what you were apologizing for, as I had not seen the other relevant post(s). I do believe you are sincere in your apology for and genuinely regret your emotional and hurtful response, the attitude it expressed toward Jews, and the way it (apparently) reflected on others with whom you associate (something I did not see myself, but I miss plenty of posts here). But I am not sure you fully see the underlying issue that I see, the problem inherent in insulting a large group of people based on the behavior of a few. As I said, I understand that, to some extent, that attitude is probably being enabled here by others doing the same thing and are therefore supportive of you in that respect, when it comes to Bernie supporters. But at its core, I see it as exactly the same mindset that you are apologizing for.

It's not up to me to determine what anyone else (including yourself) will find to be an "acceptable" apology, but my opinion is, you only got halfway there. Respectfully, I'd ask to to consider that no group should be painted with such a broad brush.

[skepticscott]

102. You meant the racist garbage you posted

every bit as much as you mean this "apology", if not more so.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511533345

So why should we believe the apology is more sincere than what you claim to be apologizing for was? I accept only sincere apologies, and that sincerity can only be demonstrated by your deeds and words in the future.

[bravenak]

133. You do not have to accept

[kcr]

164. So do you count yourself among those with the tendencies? Or are you the exception to that rule? n/t

[Ed Suspicious]

63. You and Bernie Sanders would seem like natural allies.

You both profess a passion for helping the underprivileged. Too bad you reject the alliance in such a vile way. Maybe your anti-Semitism has clouded your judgement.

[bravenak]

64. This op is NOT ABOUT HIM

If you wanna talk primaries, go to gdp

[kristopher]

191. If it isn't about him then what's at the root of your vile behavior?

Non-apology apology
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A non-apology apology or nonpology is a statement that has the form of an apology but does not express the expected contrition. It is common in both politics and public relations. It most commonly entails the speaker saying that he or she is sorry not for a behavior, statement or misdeed, but rather is sorry only because a person who has been aggrieved is requesting the apology, expressing a grievance, or is threatening some form of retribution or retaliation.

An example of a non-apology apology would be saying "I'm sorry that you feel that way" to someone who has been offended by a statement. This apology does not admit that there was anything wrong with the remarks made, and additionally, it may be taken as insinuating that the person taking offense was excessively thin-skinned or irrational in taking offense at the remarks in the first place. Another form of non-apology is one which does not apologize directly to the person who was injured or insulted, but instead offers a generic apology "to anyone who might have been offended."[1]

Statements that use the word "sorry" but do not express responsibility for wrongdoing may be meaningful expressions of regret, but such statements can also be used to elicit forgiveness without acknowledging fault.[2]

<snip>

As a tactic[edit]
Typologies of apology note that apologies cover a range of situations and degrees of regret, remorse, and contrition, and that success is to be gauged by the result of the apology rather than the degree of contrition involved. Deborah Levi offers the following possibilities:

Tactical apology—when a person accused of wrongdoing offers an apology that is rhetorical and strategic—and not necessary heartfelt
Explanation apology—when a person accused of wrongdoing offers an apology that is merely a gesture that is meant to counter an accusation of wrongdoing. In fact, it may be used to defend the actions of the accused
Formalistic apology—when a person accused of wrongdoing offers an apology after being admonished to do so by an authority figure—who may also be the individual who suffered the wrongdoing
Happy ending apology—when a person accused of wrongdoing fully acknowledges responsibility for the wrongdoing and is genuinely remorseful
Pretty Girl Trick—"With great privilege comes an equally great ability to be irresponsible and yet succeed, be cared about, get out of jail free (...) “Sorry” is always saying “please still like me.” Doing better is more like deserving it."

While the non-apology apology is clearly unsuited to situations where an expression of remorse, contrition, and future change are obviously desirable (e.g. the "happy ending" apology), it may prove extremely useful in situations where little can be done to assuage the apparent offence or prevent its repetition, as when an airline apologises for a delay, in the full knowledge that a future repetition is inevitable. Such tactical apologies may have beneficial effects simply through the validation of the emotions of the offended party: they answer the basic human need for disagreeable emotions to be recognised and acknowledged as important, while protecting the apparently offending party from an expression of remorse.[20] Negotiators often use this tactic to calm tense situations: "an apology can defuse emotions effectively, even when you do not acknowledge personal responsibility for the action or admit an intention to harm. An apology may be one of the least costly and most rewarding investments you can make."[21]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

[melman]

310. Exactly

A non-apology apology is precisely what it is. Total horseshit.

[tk2kewl]

75. you might remember I once said that

I think I'd get a kick out of you IRL...

in fact, I think I'd probably like you quite a bit.

Very thoughtful post

[RedCappedBandit]

76. I tend to take people at their word when they accidentally expose their bigotry.

Not sure why you would be an exception. The post wasn't all that surprising - just a bit more revealing.

[skepticscott]

83. Exactly

She let her true self show, and now is frantically trying to cover it up and pretend that it wasn't really her. But the bell can't be unrung.

These were not the sorts of things that someone who isn't a virulent racist posts by "accident".

[Jackie Wilson Said]

143. Like all those folks here who rec'd the WillyT threads about Stockholm Syndrome?

They showed their true self's, didn't they.

Too bad you cant figure out by looking who is doing the recommending, eh!

[Matt_in_STL]

153. Out of curiosity

Do you believe WillyT should be allowed to come back and apologize for posting the racist words of others? If not, why should this apology be taken seriously by anyone here when it wasn't the posting of other viewpoints, but her own anti-Semitic beliefs?

There is a lot of using the post by WillyT to justify this and absolve the outright racism being apologized for. Meanwhile, one poster isn't here to offer apologies and the other is receiving support for getting caught as an outright racist.

[ScreamingMeemie]

209. This is an interesting question.

For the record, I don't believe either bravenak or WillyT are bad, hateful people. I think the Internet can sometimes make people post things in anger that they wouldn't say IRL. That screen is a mighty thick shield.

[jillan]

403. "When someone shows you who they are believe them" Maya Angelou

[drokhole]

93. Words of wisdom from Marcus Aurelius:

"If it is not right, do not do it. If it is not true, do not say it."

"The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury."

"Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."

[Raster]

96. You wrote words in anger and haste... unfortunately we all do.

"Please, do not tar my friends with my brush. I am the only one to blame for my words. Please, I implore you to leave them be, and come after me, if that is your intention. Thank you."

Peace be unto you, bravenak. Shalom.

[bravenak]

97. Thank you for understanding

I still should not let it happen no matter what.

[Raster]

103. I've been on DU for about 14 years. This primary season is probably one of the ugliest...

...and there is plenty of ugly to go around on all sides...

That said, I've read much of what you've posted...

...I see a young, fierce, strong Black Woman standing for what she believes and aggressively advocating for Persons of Color, and for that, I commend you.

Go in peace, bravenak.

[SusanCalvin]

114. If I may..... ^THIS^

[Logical]

109. Most people here do not post terrible stuff like that. And you know it. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

285. "You wrote words in anger and haste"

That is usually when the truth slips out

[Rex]

294. If only everyone on DU could come out and say they are not saints and never considered themselves

to be. All I see are humans. And ALL have faults, me included, but I will take anyone here as a brother or sister over the crass mob that is society.

No more high horsing around...that canard should be called out every time. I am surprised anyone still tries to be high up on a pedestal, we need to drop that like a bad habit.

It is the other party, that lives in a bubble. The rest of us are flawed humans, time for one and all to fess up.

[840high]

327. Yep

[mcar]

107. Well said!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

110. So bravenak

It's a good thing you're doing here, but you're largely apologizing to lots of liberals who have been called racists one way or another for months now. I don't speak for anyone but myself, but this was confusing, angering--all sorts of emotions get mixed in there. But there's a guy out there with millions of followers. He's a REAL racist, and so are a large percentage of his followers. And they're dangerous. We are not.

I'm not an innocent, and not claiming to be. I have learned some things over the last few months; I've learned that there were issues I never much stopped to think about. But I do know that I've never intentionally been a racist. So you can probably see why people want to start spelling long German words that begin with an S (I can never spell that damned word) upon seeing your apology.

I don't think you owe me an apology for this, although I thought it was in really poor taste. But I really do wish you'd knock it off with some of the racial angles that just aren't accurate when it comes to politically liberal people. There are bad guys out there; we're not them.

Thanks.

[cwydro]

111. I have no idea what this is about.

Is this about something that happened in GD - P? Or elsewhere?

[PeaceNikki]

122. It was stuff said outside of DU.

[cwydro]

138. Ok, thank you.

I've seen the links now.

[840high]

328. Outside of DU - she

made an anti-semitic post.

[floriduck]

119. None of us is perfect.

I, too, accept your apology. Even though you PM'd me after I was timed out for posting on the AA board. I had no clue I was even in that group when I replied to a post. I'm now banned from it. But in no way am I or was I intending to disparage the AA group.

I am sorry back at you. I don't want hard feelings to exist. Difference of opinions are fine and sometimes healthy. But intentional animosity need not be part of this site.

[heaven05]

120. that passionate responses

SOMETIMES lead to mistaken words construed as hate is a human condition. True ALL people are not racist in this time of the rise of fascist america led by the new fuhrer that is resurrecting a climate of hate that possibly will remain dangerous for quite some time. That hate has always been here and directed at minorities. I think you are one of the thinkers of this site and if your anger causes some harm, may those harmed accept your apology, remember their 'mistakes' and move on.

On here I have somrtimes read words from people that "tarred" and labeled whole races as "thugs" "illegals" and other despicable bigoted and hateful descriptions. And no, I have not seen any apology(s) from those types on here.

I commend you on your integrity and effort to maintain your civility and admit your humaness.

You go girl! I love ya!!!!!

[Logical]

121. You seem to like a lot of attention. This seen like another post showing that. nt

[monicaangela]

123. This should be a criminal investigation

The DOJ should be all over this. Some of these people need to be brought up on murder charges. 10 deaths from Legionnaires disease because of this. I would say that is murder. I can't understand why this isn't an even bigger story in this nation. And now they say the problem is showing it's ugly head in New Jersey. We need to get control of these republican administrations that are destroying our country.

[bravenak]

126. I agree

[monicaangela]

135. In the scheme of things bravenak

I'd say your crime is miniscule compared to what is happening in this nation. Thanks for the apology, I'm sure you, as you said, spoke in haste and through raw emotion before thinking. It takes a really centered person to admit when they are wrong. I admire you for that.

[SusanCalvin]

131. Accepted.

Not blindly, but knowing you. It was horrible, as you said (and I do not think you meant it), but you subsequently did the right thing and I trust you going forward.

[merrily]

134. Only that one post? o.k.

This part, I believe.

.... I am doubly so for the way my friends have all been tarred with my words

As for the rest, only time will tell.

[LiberalArkie]

137. People sometimes say things in the heat of the moment that do not reflect their true feelings.

We have all said things to our spouse, best friend or just someone on the street that in reflection we wished we had never done.

We are using a medium that amplifies that heat of the moment greatly and makes if damn near impossible to take back.

Bravenak, I do not know what you posted. You apologized for it so I do not need to know. I take what ever was said as something that was said (written) in the heat of a political season that has already had way too many casualties.


Take care.

[skepticscott]

174. Except that this was not "in the heat of the moment"

She posting the same kind of vile, racist crap over and over, as you would know, if you had read what's being posted here.

She had a long time to think and reflect on these issues before she sat down to compose those posts. Any non-racist person would have realized as they were typing them that they were disgusting and shouldn't be published.

If you want to be an apologist for her racism, that's your right, but don't pretend that anyone and everyone might have posted this same kind of garbage "in the heat of the moment".

[truebrit71]

217. The 'heat of the moment'? Bollocks. This was the revelation of deep-seated hatred...

You don't go full on "It's the jeeeeeews" in the heat of the moment when you can't find your car keys. Or you slam your fingers in the car door and blame the Jews 'in the heat of the moment'...

This was the revelation of that person's real feelings and the fact that people on this website fall over themselves in their apologia for her is just as despicable as the things she has written.

Apology NOT accepted.

[Uncle Joe]

139. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, bravenak.

[BumRushDaShow]

142. K&R

And it takes a big person to do a public apology.

I normally wouldn't have even known what this was about as I can only post and engage here in brief spurts due to massive work-related workload and dealing with moving, but I got a completely off topic "graffiti reply" (as I dub it, because those who grafitti want attention) to one of my posts, which only underscores the immaturity of some posters on DU who prefer to deflect rather than engage.

I think one day when all is said and done, this will all be water under the bridge and much of it will be long forgotten, with just some modicum of raw emotions left that will themselves fade.

[hrmjustin]

150. We all have faults. I am glad you apologized and I hope forgiveness comes from this.

[NastyRiffraff]

152. I didn't read the problem posting

but good on you for the apology, Bravenak. Apparently you hurt some people; we all do at some time or other and feel horrible afterwards. But not all of us apologize for it. Thank you for doing so.

BTW, I like a lot of your posts here on DU!

[Iggo]

154. Is what you said wrong? Is that not how you feel and what you believe?

It really doesn't matter to me that you're sorry you said it.

Do you believe what you said to be true?

That's what matters.

[bravenak]

235. What I said was wrong and not how I feel

There is no excuse. All I can do is apologize and do better. Regards.

[bkkyosemite]

159. Brave it takes a brave person to apologize and admit to something.

If a person recognizes and then apologizes it is a learning experience. Perhaps you can research more regarding Senator Sanders and his belief system. I have not seen any racism from the Bernie supporters. And I have read many posts here and elsewhere. Yes I'm not sure of all that was said only what I read in your OP posts.

What matters in a person is not the culture they come from, the color of their skin or the things their friends or family have helped them think. It is the heart of that person that matters.

You apologized. Many people do not have it in them to re evaluate what they have done or said and do what you have done. Thank you.

[PeaceNikki]

237. It also takes a brave person to accept that apology and forgive.

I have a great respect for you and others who are doing that and I think the combination of her apology and acceptance of it can go far in healing wounds here.

Kudos.

[bravenak]

246. Thank you. I appreciate that you understand and are willing to forgive

I wish i could go back and undo it. But knowing that people are gravious will help me not ever ever do it again. You are kind.

[kdmorris]

170. This seems like the apologies I always got from my teenage daughters

I'm sorry, I was provoked, I was angry. But... what never came with those apologies was "I will NEVER do it again" or "I WILL CHANGE".

I have watched you label all Bernie supporters as racist. Others here have labeled us all sexist. And I sit here as a woman... and I get pretty upset. I do support Bernie Sanders, wholeheartedly, but not because I am a sexist and a racist. I support him because his values match mine.

I have had to struggle out of poverty to get where I am. And I watch as my oldest daughter does the same. She is married, in nursing school and has a 4 year old child. Her BEST hope of not having her food stamps taken away or having her medical care removed is Bernie Sanders. Because her husband is African American, they have been reduced to living in some of the shittiest neighborhoods just to survive. THAT is racism. You may think it's racist to say that poverty affects African Americans in greater numbers than Whites, even at the same income level, but it's TRUE. And having someone who will fight to have medical care, food, reproductive care and housing be RIGHTS for the American people is something I truly believe in.

I do not feel the same about Hilary Clinton and I never will. She doesn't fight for me or my family or my neighborhood. She fights for Goldman Sachs and JP Chase Morgan. Because I am in the middle class, her policies will likely benefit me... but I do not believe they will benefit the lower class - and no matter how much you want to protest or scream at me about how racist that is or how racist I am... I stand by that. And I don't vote strictly on who will benefit me the most. I vote based on who I think will benefit the country most.

But you have consistently labeled these values as racist, wrong, impure, sordid...

Given how often you called for PPR'ing people who you have decided to be racist, I find it disheartening that no one calls for PPR'ing people who are anti-Semitic. But hey... I think PPR'ing anyone kind of sucks, but if you are going to do it.. I think it should be universal and not all one sided.

We'll see how much this apology means in your future actions. You wrote that post over a month ago. You could have deleted it before it became public. You didn't. You waited until someone brought it up here. So my feeling is that the apology is more to cover public embarrassment than because you feel remorse... but we'll see.

[Duckhunter935]

175. This ^^^

[skepticscott]

215. +1000

Nailed it. And her.

We'll see how much this apology means in your future actions. You wrote that post over a month ago. You could have deleted it before it became public. You didn't. You waited until someone brought it up here. So my feeling is that the apology is more to cover public embarrassment than because you feel remorse

[840high]

336. Thank you.

[Hiraeth]

414. going forward will show the truth. time will tell.

I also, for the reasons you enumerated above, have my doubts. Feel free to PM me any pertinent threads/OPs from her.

I have had her on ignore for some time now.

Thanks for the post. You wrote exactly what I was thinking but, could not find the words.

[Dragonfli]

178. I once thought you were above this crap, I even respected you when first you joined

Being a mixed race individual, I understood what you originally appeared to attempt to do.

You have lost your way and fallen deeply into hatred and division and this angers me as well (another thing I must try to forgive you for because I, as much as any, having lived in the poorest dregs of society, having known hunger, beatings at the hands of more than one "pure" race, beaten nearly to death by cops for being poor and vaguely "ethnic" at 16 and yet somehow escaped the fate of it making me hate others) Instead, I formed deep friendships with people of all those many ethnic heritages that I could in that poor and mixed area. I have fought my whole life for peace and unity, you have set that back as much as it did at times when I felt passing anger at hatred directed at me in my youth.

You have also lost my trust and any respect I might have had, you have prejudices within you that targets part of my muttish whole and have been working hard at causing division.

I am part Black, part Latino, part White and part Korean (equal quarters if that matters and it should not), but not ethnically Jewish. You have already shown hatred towards at least one quarter of who I am, beyond what is necessary to defend the Black part of myself which I do understand needs defense.

Now you have shown and expressed hatred for possibly the only other group that has faced more hardship and cruelty than the part of me that shares a black history with you, and yes, I lack any special privilege being not white, but face the same petty prejudices from those among my other peoples for not being "pure" in anyone's eyes.

I no longer trust if you will hate my Latino side or my Korean side, but have actually been brought to the point where I suspect you will - more than I expect not.


You are lost to hatred and division now as far as it appears to me so to me you are a lost cause, maybe someday you will realize that the only true justice that will ever be found will only be found through unity.

I do not accept your apology at this time and am placing you on ignore because quite frankly, I hold no interest in either hatred or disunity. I do not think you are ready to give up either, at least not yet.

[bravenak]

231. I accept that. And I am sorry whether you believe me or not.

Have a nice day.

[Bread and Circus]

179. What are you apologizing for?

I think the bigger crime here isn't the one post that has been cross linked from another website where you basically gave into the dark side and admitted your hate and anger. In my mind that was just the truth that came out.

No, the bigger crime is the persistent behavior on this website of many posters who have insinuated in various ways over many months that supporters of Bernie Sanders are racist which has degraded the debate and alienated many here.

The post in question only confirms what many of us have suspected has been going on for a long time. You admitted, in an ugly way, what we already had come to know.

In that post, you flat out said Bernie Sanders supporters are racist and you don't even really like Hillary Clinton but you gore at us time and again for some sort of smug revenge.

When one person says something ugly in the heat of anger, it is very forgivable. All but the best of us have said ugly things in anger. But what I see here is a pattern of emotional abuse waged by yourself and others on a shared website where we, as posters, are the content of that website. This emotional abuse has amounted to a "when did you stop beating your wife" campaign which presumes guilt in its premise and any chance to defend against such an accusation is met with the denial that the accused even has the ability to recognize their own crimes (the tone deaf argument). It becomes a no win situation which pits one racial group vs. another in some sort of proxy war for the candidates. It has been a despicable situation and has soured me against DU and the posters here who have promoted it.

The real question I have is if you will admit to that and actually stop it.

[noamnety]

182. Your second paragraph is troubling to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong - but you seem to be saying: I'm a bit sorry I said some hurtful stuff - but I'm more sorry it made my friends look bad.

I wish you saw using antisemitic hate speech as the bigger offense, rather making your friends look bad.

I wish your apology didn't dance around that what you wrote was horribly antisemitic and bigoted.

I wish your apology didn't whitewash your hate speech by letting people infer what you did was simply use some mean words. I don't know if you realized that in your apology you haven't actually acknowledged what the problem was.

It's like when a spouse cheats and gets caught - and then says "I'm sorry I did something that hurt you" - but can't actually say the words "I'm sorry I've been cheating on you." It's a way of minimizing the offense and not really coming to terms with it. And the fact that they only apologize after they're caught ... makes it seem not so sincere.

In other words - I can believe you accidentally let down your guard or filter in the heat of anger, and let something slip out that you didn't mean to reveal. But I don't understand why, when your anger cooled off, you apparently let the post sit for a week and didn't go back and apologize there for it or anywhere else until you were called out for it.

[kcr]

188. It's the harassment.

I've been biting my tongue because I don't want to make things worse and bring down even more harassment on anyone. That's how bad it is. But I can't help it, I have to address this comment because my sense of fairness just can't let it go.

[Smarmie Doofus]

207. ^ This.

Yer' a tough customer. But ...... right on.


>>>I wish you saw using antisemitic hate speech as the bigger offense, rather making your friends look bad.

I wish your apology didn't dance around that what you wrote was horribly antisemitic and bigoted.>>>>>

[840high]

342. .^that

[melman]

367. Yep

Says right here "I know I owe nothing" http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7699700

[revbones]

186. Perhaps apologize to WillyT

and the others that saw you take what may or may not have been meant as hurtful as what you're talking about here, and repeat it over and over by cross-posting it until WillyT was banned.

Did WillyT get a chance to apologize the way you are now?

It also seems a bit disingenuous to apologize the way you are now, rather than for the actual hate speech since it makes it seem as though you're more concerned with losing support here or being recognized as having the same traits you have ascribed to many others in your attacks here on DU.

[bravenak]

197. Willyt had MONTHS

[revbones]

212. Still it was a bit hypocritical

to put WillyT on blast as was done by cross-posting the response over and over and over again until they were booted, yet come in and apologize for what some might consider worse hate speech and only apologize in the manner that was done.

[bravenak]

240. Not really

People can see that they harmed and feel horrible and apologize. Or, they can feel good about hurting people and continue. It is up to us to decide who we are. I can take the hits for my wrongs and take my lumps. I have shame. It is only human to fail. But when we fail we need to own up. There is no excuse for what I did. There is no excuse for him either. My wrongs do not make him right. I own mine and he owns his.
Do I think he is a horrible person? No. I think he really did not see that he was wrong. As I did not until friends told me in no uncertain terms that I had done something terrible and they were angry. I hurt them too. I hate that.

[revbones]

253. The attempt to paint your actions as doing anything other than

having felt "good about hurting people" is galling.

Given your behavior both here and elsewhere, I see no reason that anyone should believe you when you claim to "have shame". I think it demonstrates shamelessness perfectly.

It would seem that you only think you failed, because of being outed.

I will agree with you on one point though. There is no excuse for what you did - and did and did again. If you truly felt this was shameful, then surely it wouldn't have been such a common theme over and over again for you.

You've been extraordinarily antagonistic, and flagrant in your accusations and I think all this delegitimizes nearly everything if not everything you've said.


"Probrecito" indeed.

[bravenak]

255. This is about my comment

Not about whatever else you are going on about. It was one comment not whatever you are inferring. You are making stuff up now.

[Matt_in_STL]

221. And you had time to remove that post and only apologized when caught

Then, you gravedanced on WillyT as if you weren't an incredible racist yourself. That's where I take a huge issue with this. You are trying to put yourself above someone else when you have proven yourself to be on, at the very least, equal footing with WillyT. The only thing saving you here is that you posted it on a right wing smear site rather than here.

[bravenak]

229. Not true

I am glad you are enjoying this, though.

[Matt_in_STL]

233. Oh, I don't enjoy it at all

I think that grave dancing on someone for racist posts while knowingly hiding your own racist posting is sickening. You positioned yourself as a better person by doing that while knowing you had posted that anti-Semitic garbage. I am not backing WillyT's post in the least, but I do recall a saying about glass houses and stones, a saying you may have wanted to take to heart before your little dance party.

[bravenak]

236. He had the opportunity to apologize too

He instead reposted the same racist garbage. That is not my fault. I can apologize for me and know that I tried my best. Learn from my mistakes and not compound it by doubling down.

[Matt_in_STL]

238. So the grave dancing is okay?

I guess there is honor among thieves but not among racists.

[bravenak]

243. He is still alive hon

If he wants to apologize and ask admin to reinstate him that is up to him. I know better. I knew better. That is why I am sorry. For doing what I knew I should not do. Anger does not justify it. Nothing does. If I get banned, dance away. I do not care.

[Matt_in_STL]

249. The only reason you are still here

Is because you knew not to post your filth here and instead took it to a right wing website with a penchant for racist bile. The only difference between you and WillyT is knowing how to play to your audience.

[bravenak]

251. Are you done?

[catnhatnh]

330. Yeah

And you posted AGAIN on "Stockholm Syndrome" Friday, for your sixth hide. And of course that had nothing to do with grave dancing either because you are too fine a person and would never abuse the amnesty that put you back on the board to stir up shit...

[bravenak]

340. Did you take a wrong turn? That Stockholm syndrome shit was WRONG

And I will complain if I see it again. Just because I do something wrong does not mean I will ever ignore shit I see. I can correct myself and reflect and I will damn sure point it out to others. Show me a perfect person and I will see a liar. If people do not like being told they are out of pocket they can correct themselves too. Being wrong on one thing does NOT MEAN that one has to suffer in silence for eternity. It would be insane to think they should.

[JI7]

301. willyt was a bigoted piece of shit

Who kept posting bigoted shit at minorities.

Instead of apologizing . He keep continued to post the same offensive shit.

[revbones]

307. And the difference is?

I'm really only pointing out WillyT's being banned because given the number of posts calling WillyT out for the "Stockholm syndrome" post that she made. Given what the apology is for, it would seem hypocritical at least.

I really don't want to get into defending WillyT, as I didn't know that person. My point was only that it would seem to be hypocritical to throw stones when living in a glass house.

[JI7]

315. difference is she apologized for it. willyt kept posting the same shit for years

She did it once on another site and didn't try to defend it.

He kept doing it .

[revbones]

325. I find that argument a little specious.

We seem to be talking about an exposure of one's beliefs. WillyT (again someone I don't know, and don't want to defend) as you said repetitively posted statements that seemed to indicate his beliefs. Here the non-apology is for being caught in one post that exposed her beliefs.

I'm not sure being exposed once versus multiple times changes the beliefs that were exposed. Is that what you're saying?

My concern is more toward the hypocrisy in a multitude of posts and comments relentlessly attacking others falsely for shameful beliefs the attacker held themselves.

[JI7]

332. the hypocrisy is those defending willyt

Which you are doing

[ScreamingMeemie]

189. I didn't know what it was until I read this thread.

This is going to sound all wrong, but so many DUers here get themselves all filled up with the feeling that all of us hang on their every word, (alert) stalk them or keep notebooks filled with past transgressions. We are never as important as we think we are to others on a message board.

That simply isn't true. A small handful of people do this to each other, while the rest of us merely participate.

That said, I have been shocked by the words and behaviors of people on both sides of the Bernie v. Hillary battle. Too much of it has become personal this primary season, and I have found myself putting people I like (again, from both sides) on ignore simply so I don't lose all respect for them.

When a person (myself in this case) posts a meme to lighten things up and people freak out about it, well, that tells me something.

A few of the supporters of both Bernie and Hillary need to take a look inward and ask themselves what it is really about.

Have a great day, bravenak and DU.

[kcr]

226. It doesn't sound wrong to me at all.

I totally get it. Some of the crap is typical DU that just has a Bernie/Hillary brand slapped on it, but it will continue without it in Generic DU form.

[ScreamingMeemie]

260. Yes, that is exactly what I meant.

It took me longer than it should have to come to this conclusion.

[kcr]

264. Yep. With the primaries it's just on steroids. But otherwise it's the same.

You have the regulars who basically know what's going on enough to chime in and take sides. You have the people who are superfans who really get into it and know every single detail and keep notes. And you have the people who only occasionally wonder in and have no clue what's going on and are sometimes collateral damage as a result.

With the primaries, the same behaviors are thrown into the candidates with gusto, with another added layer. The kinds of people who really get involved and take notes will sometimes really get behind their candidate and anyone who isn't with them is the enemy, full stop. I think some of the regulars will fall in and take sides and support the super fans, but not all. Many mostly just stay out of the fray. I consider myself a regular who tries to stay out of it mostly, but sometimes gets caught up in a dust up here and there.

[Bluenorthwest]

210. But it is not just those words, it is the fact that the speaker of them has conducted herself as

judge and jury finding others guilty of that same offense. Some of your friends have taken part in that, knowing what you say about minority groups yourself. You are the thing you claim every Bernie supporter is. You have not been an honest broker with me nor with DU.

If a poster attacks a minority candidate endlessly and intensely and is eventually shown to have bias against that minority group and not just the candidate there is no justification for that. When that poster organizers her friends into a group of people that accuse others of that same bias while acting insulted if their own biases are questioned it is an issue larger than just you.

You are the key player in the 'Bernie supporters are all bigots' game. And your words are those of a roiling and fully entitled bigot. Your apology seeks to protect those who helped you do this, and what you guys did was an aggressive and dishonest attack on good DUers and on Bernie Sanders, and now we know why. We know why you were doing that. We know why you treated us all like trash.
You lied to us. To all of us. And you preached at us as if you had standing that was not yours. You, a raging bigot, called all Sanders supporters bigots for months and months and months.

I think of all the OP's by your Team baiting LGBT all this week after your Candidate claimed the Reagans were AIDS heroes. Gay baiting.

When will the rest apologize and how do you intend to attempt to make right this months long abuse of DU?

[revbones]

218. ^^ THIS ^^ is one of the few true explanations in this whole thread.

Everyone is quick to say "Oh that's ok. It wasn't hypocritical or disingenuous at all the way you conducted yourself given your true beliefs that have now been exposed." Or that it didn't hurt anyone.

No, this apology is worthless, and only meant to obfuscate previous actions of both the one apologizing and deflect blame from others.

[bravenak]

230. I am sorry that I hurt you, Blue

[skepticscott]

261. You're not getting this, are you?

Nothing you say in this thread will make your "apology" ring less hollow. You will have to prove your sincerity with more than that. And if you have to ask what, I don't hold out much hope for you.

[Bluenorthwest]

262. That's nice for you. What are you going to do to make it right?

You are apologetic because you got busted. For months you played a game of lies in which you gave false witness about others. Now everyone sees the charade you and yes, some of your DU friends have been engaged in.

You want your cake and eat it too, much like Hillary on Reagan. Say anything, then say sorry. It's bogus and I'm sick of it and let me tell you how forgiveness works. I can forgive you and yet never tell you that. Forgiveness is for me, and to enjoy it I do not need to inform a person if I forgive them or not. It's not their business.

Gay baiting, Jew baiting bigots. I advise all of your cohort to proceed with caution. Game is over. Exposed.

What you need to do is stop the game. Saying you are sorry is not much. Months of bullying on DU. What are you going to do to make it right?

[bravenak]

289. I have no idea why you think I need to apologize for shit Hillary said or did

I do not NEED you to forgive me nor do I need to ignore the massive amounts if bulkshut tossed out just because I feel bad about this. If you thought that I was going to take on the guilt for everything everbody had done? Too bad, blue. I only take credit for my shit.

And you can sit there and act like you did not see this shit against blacks going on for months and attack me for this. But it just show more about you than me. When I see you in threads defending us I will notice. I have seen not one person feel a bit bad about any of that anti black shit and apologize to the group except bonobo who was not even guilty. I said what I said but I'll be damed if I let people try to make me grovel for shit that has nothing to do with any of this.

As for charades.... Try a mirror. U jump in off subject on every thread we post and attack and never reflect. It might be time for you to try doing that.

[Bluenorthwest]

399. And there comes the truth, bellowing forth. You are author of much of DU's shit.

You attacked me personally several times. And you, who just 'apologized' are again pulling your same accusatory games when you don't get what you command from others.

I have called out many racist posts on DU including WillyT and kelliekat44 and everyone knows this. I'm not the one trying to make amends for openly vile bigotry, that's you. That game is over.

[kdmorris]

232. +1000

I tried to same similar further up, but you did a much better job of it, especially the nastiness to the LGBT community.

[skepticscott]

234. + a bazillion

[Divernan]

252. Exactly. Words and Deeds.

In the words of Marlon Brando in One Eyed Jack, "Talk is cheap, Jack. Make your play."

I can't imagine how she could possibly, as you so aptly put it, "make right her months long abuse of DU".

Every hate-filled, bigoted post lands in the internet and spreads vile ripples.

She's been ringing bells for many months, and none of them can be unrung.

[awoke_in_2003]

316. Sadly, I must agree. nt

[bravenak]

320. Too bad

[beam me up scottie]

356. This.

Thank you again, Blue, nailed it. For months she posted op after op denigrating Bernie and his supporters, stirring the shit, inviting everyone and anyone to join in the fun and when we objected and tried to defend ourselves she laughed in our faces. She even admitted that she was having the time of her life.

She repeatedly used Willy T's comment to label us all as racist even throwing it in my face knowing full well that I called him out for it.

And this isn't the first time she posted something anti-Semitic, she used a dog whistle more than once and when she was called on it she claimed we were making it up.

She uses race as a wedge and a weapon to get even with Bernie supporters, she should apologize for her blanket condemnation of all of us but she won't.

And even now she gets to play the victim, if we don't graciously accept this one time attention getting op as a sincere apology it's because we hate her, not because we remember her behaviour towards us and see through this charade.

[riderinthestorm]

378. Remember Will Pitt and POSUCS? He was hounded off DU even after he apologized

He was never allowed to forget it. It was mentioned by the OP and her friends relentlessly anytime he made a post after that.

And Will actually wasn't angry when he made that ill fated post - he was distraught over his wife's medical care being denied under the ACA.

[mercuryblues]

219. +1

Admitting your mistake and taking responsibility for it, is what keeps you moving forward.

I followed the links that someone so eagerly provided. I read the article and comments in the original story that prompted your negative response. I easily see how your anger got the better of you, lashing out to hurt others by going for the jugular.

What makes me curious though is the rapid response to C&P just your response to other boards, not the comments that elicited it. This seems like effort to delegitimize your opinions. One would almost think they google your name several times a day to see if they can play Gotcha. I am concerned about the glee taken in spreading what you wrote into other forums. Even after your apology.

[ScreamingMeemie]

228. Nevermind. Nothing I say will ever change a damned thing.

[revbones]

239. Given the past behavior to discredit others

it's pretty obvious why what you noted might be occurring.

[mercuryblues]

257. If by

discredit you mean posting articles and opinions on how and why, some minorities are put off by the racial undertones posted here; then I agree.

[Matt_in_STL]

344. Racism and anti-Semitism is a "mistake"?

No, they are part of a belief system and in this case she is upset her beliefs made their way here, where she had a meticulously cultivated persona of fighting racism.

[tularetom]

224. Well, I learned something from this thread

I learned that even when you have somebody on ignore, their posts will still appear on the DU home page. And that's something I never knew before.

So I guess this thread isn't completely worthless.

[Rex]

225. Wow, what happened here? Even Spiderman is pissed off!

Kidding, have no idea what you are apologizing for, but thank you for being polite.

[Hortensis]

247. My husband's Jewish, Bravenak.

I was dismayed by your words, but in a world filled with the evils of both extremist zealotry that can become deadly on both sides and of the usual malignant fear and hate in many, I did not believe that you belonged with any of those. I did think you are combative and ready to take on all comers and sort of hoped your words mostly reflected the heat of battle. I don't expect people I respect to be free of unfortunate societal influences, just that they be among those who understand what good is and try to be good themselve.

So, thanks for the apology and the introspection that went into it. It's nice to have confirmed where you are at heart.

[bravenak]

254. Can you tell him that I am sorry?

Just for me so I know he knows that people are not all horribly unapologetic? Thank you for trusting that I am good at heart.

[Hortensis]

275. Sure, in case he noticed. But I'm the one

with the cool eye for this stuff. He tends to like and accept everyone and is very slow to recognize and quick to forget that capacity for evil exists in too many people right alongside the good we normally see.

[Chitown Kev]

263. Well...

bravenak, you did what you felt that you should do for the reasons that you stated.

People are going to feel the way they feel and if they choose not to accept your apology...well, there is nothing that you can do about that...there will NEVER be anything that you can do about that.

One thing I DO like about having been around AA for over 20 years (even though I haven't been sober that long) is the meticulous process that I've of doing these sorts of things (8-9-10).

Don't grovel before those who seem to want you to do exactly that...move on.

[Bluenorthwest]

272. Own your shit. Full accounting. Forgiveness and forgetting are not the same things.

Your post is all about those terrible people who are not rushing to do a favor for the person who admits to being in the wrong. Hers is mostly about the innocence of her assistants like yourself.
That stuff won't work anymore. It's done. Find a new toy.

She baited and bashed a minority candidate endlessly and finally got caught as having bigotry against that minority group.
Would you find that acceptable in another person? Or if done to your own? Of course not. So this passive aggressive snottiness is gauche and really sort of bigoted in and of itself for you wish to dismiss the seriousness of such bias motivated posting.

You have made OP's claiming there is no such thing as antisemitism against Bernie, it's racist to think that your OP asserted. I'd say you were part of the package selling this toxin on DU.

[skepticscott]

279. Wrong. There is absolutely something she can do about it

And it has been pointed out to her multiple times in this thread.

[Chitown Kev]

305. As you will note

I actually have some experience with this apology/amends thing.

The goalposts will keep moving ad infinitum in some cases; in other cases it will take time and reflection.

[bravenak]

314. Not worth your time

It's not this he's mad about. Some are mad because I pointed out that they have biases that they choose to not reflect on. They are angry that their friend chose the other path, the path of double down and constant reoffending. And they supported him fully the whole time and agree with him. And they know that I will still point it out and they are really just hypocrites. Were they outraged over the antiblack stuff? No. It's not about integrity. They smell blood in the water.

Those most offended took the apology as intended. The rest here enjoying themselves? Ignore them. They think they look strong but they really just look small and weak.

[bravenak]

295. Yep

Ignore list is filling up

[revbones]

265. Going forward...

I have bookmarked this thread and would encourage others to do so as well.

Given the past pattern of accusations and baiting, which this half-hearted apology and the reasons for it now demonstrate the immense hypocrisy involved, I think future instances simply merit a comment with a link to this in order to utterly disprove and delegitimize any such arguments that might be made.

[UtahLib]

349. I'm sure you will.

You have exhibited disturbingly obsessive behavior, developed in such a short timeframe, with everything Bravenak. By the way, keeping files on posters you dislike or with whom you disagree is not an original idea on DU but very often will backfire.

[revbones]

359. Given the source

that opinion of me just gives me pride. Bookmarking this thread is a bit different from "keeping files on posters" but call it whatever you want.

No, I haven't singled out bravenak, like many others I'm just tired of the inane <7 word comments intended to provoke or discredit someone's post or comment, or the constant baiting, or the accusations of racism, the thinly veiled insulting name-calling, or the painting of entire groups with broad-brushes in unwarranted or undeserved attacks of bigotry, racism and misogyny. Call my responses to all that obsessive or whatever you will. It doesn't change her posts, their intentions, or the now exposed hypocrisy either.

[UtahLib]

385. Given the source?

I see, now you know everything you need to know about me. Well, considering the disgusting posts you choose to defend to the death and your attempts to school AA posters and others as to the definition of racism, tells me all I need to know about you.

[revbones]

392. No, not everything. Just enough based on your comments

Where did I attempt to school anyone on the definition of racism? That's a pretty tall claim there and I don't believe it to be true. I don't recall ever doing any such thing.

[Duval]

267. bravenak, thank you for your apology, accepted.

I noticed some have "reminded" you of statements you are sorry for making. I think that's petty as hell, as if you need to be reminded.
It is my sincere hope that by the end of the day, everyone will be more polite and it will be the end of it.

[valerief]

273. Time to add you to my Forever Ignored club. nt

[Jackie Wilson Said]

277. Must be a weird list if people who are big enough to apologize are on it

[Rex]

281. Sadly when it gets to this point, it is not about the apology.

It is more about trusting someone again. Just read this entire thread and wow. I hope all this vileness ends once we have a nominee.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

284. But we have been promised to by many, again MANY that no way Hillary gets their votes.

So we may be in for a fascist government, for real this time.

[Rex]

287. Yes that breaks my heart hearing friends here say they will not vote for HRC.

It hurts actually, not because of how they feel toward her (none of us are saints, I think we all should be able to admit it by now) but that someone akin to a Hitler or Musolinni is so close to taking the WH.

And MANY of them are tired of the status quo, that too I understand...hey I don't have any kids...I watched Reagan and thought our future is fucked. If Cruz or Trump get into office, I think it is game over for America. Your future will be gone, wiped out. I have no faith in the system having any kind of restrain over Trump or Cruz.

Buch/Cheney was just the warm up. If we don't end up with HRC or Bernie, we are fucked this time permanently. IMO

[jalan48]

274. Maybe this just points out how society operates.

Under the right circumstances we are all potentially racists and the real underlying issue is about power, which group in a society has it and which doesn't.

[bravenak]

322. Of course

I think everyone knows that. Some just cannot believe it about THEMSELVES

[jalan48]

326. I don't think everyone does know it.

I think some either don't know or don't want to believe racism has to do with power relationships.

[Solly Mack]

278. I didn't know what you said until I read this thread.

I avoid GD: Primary by choice. I avoid it because of the extreme amount of ugly behavior during the primary, though most of my jury requests are GD: P related.

I'd have voted to hide what you said.

I'm taking the time to write this because I once defended you, but I can not defend you in this.

It is no small act to apologize so publicly and for that I give credit.

I'm going to say something you might take offense to and please know that isn't my intentions - your words, from both anger and ignorance by your own admission, carried with them the ugly underbelly of a long held prejudice.

You are aware of the existence of this underbelly, and its slow flowing current that will sometimes bubble up and unleash itself -because you're an African-American and a woman - you have witnessed it and felt its sting. You know seemingly good people can unexpectedly say the most heinous things without realizing what they are saying - but their ignorance makes their comments no less harmful, no less hateful, and no less a prejudice. By their words and word choices, you know they hold to stereotypes and beliefs that are rooted in bias and bigotry.

Anger is no excuse either.


I don't hold to the thinking that everyone is a racist. Racism is ignorance and fear nurtured into hate. I don't think everyone hates. I do think hate can be taught, just as prejudices are learned.

I do think everyone has prejudices and must get up every day determined to break that cycle. With every action and every word, people must make the effort to root out those stereotypes and biases inside them. A person has to actively fight against bigotry - in themselves and others.

Your words reflect an underlining bigotry against Jews.

I do understand those feelings of disappointment in my own actions that is greater than than those around me could ever feel. The guilt that brings. So I understand your disappointment in yourself.

I usually bypass the many mea-culpas that arise from Primary season, but this time I choose not to.

I am aware that if I spent more time in GD: P, outside of jury duty, I would spend more time being surprised by people.

But each day people are given a new chance to make different decisions about their beliefs and their actions. I've needed those days and I don't know of anyone who hasn't.

Today's a new day. Each tomorrow brings with it more opportunities to be the best decent person we can be. We all fail from time to time, but what's important is what we are willing to learn and - often as not - what we are willing to unlearn.


In closing, I'll just say...


Good morning, bravenak. It's a new day.

[revbones]

280. One question...

Given this disgrace - will you now be going back through all your posts and comments to apologize for all the accusations and baiting done to others for the same shameful behavior?

Does any guilt not apply toward the hypocrisy between those acts and these? Or is it more of a "Do as I say, not as I do" type of thing?

[Liberal Jesus Freak]

288. Bravenak...

I have learned so much from you and your passion for the discriminated. The primary season has made so many of us ugly...hypersensitive...judgmental. I want to believe you're sincere so I will believe it. At my church...every year...we go forward and select a piece of paper with our "word for the year" on it. My word this year was "kindness". Let's both strive for this

[ejbr]

290. As an AA Sanders supporter,

I have witnessed your tireless support of Hillary. Given this tenacity, I am not surprised that it has come to this; not that I got any indication that you harbored any bigotry, but that when vying for the last word on these discussion boards, one can get caught up in the desire to meet fire with fire. I have read your relevant post stating your "hatred" for Sanders and his supporters which I know was hyperbole. Still, you should have known, as an AA liberal, that targeting any group of individuals with what you said about our Jewish brothers and sisters would not be received well (nor should it have been). Yet, I can identify with the frustration that must have provoked you to type those unkind words; particularly, when those with whom you are trying to get to appreciate where you are coming from are dismissive of you or your feelings.

My suggestion is to not only continue your "fight" for Hillary (as if you need my permission), but also to know when to stop commenting and move on. It seems that you got caught up in flame bait and within the heat of the moment decided to say what you believed to be the most hateful things you could think of in order to demonstrate how upset you were about the post to which you were replying. I am just as guilty as anyone when it comes to the heat of these elections. To be honest, I may have even rec'd the offensive post by WillyT that got him banned without ever reading it just because he is a Sanders supporter. If I did recommend that post, I owe you and my other AA brothers and sisters an apology for being so focused on my own candidate that I missed the bigotry being leveled at us.

Lastly, if anyone attributes your actions to other Hillary supporters, then they are not too bright. You are you, and your friends are them. I have my issues with SOME Hillary supporters, but anti-semitic trash talk is not one of them.

There appear to be a few posters who see blood in the water and want to make you suffer more than you already are. I am not one of those people. And not that I like to be a follower, but Skinner's attempt to tone things down around here has given me pause to what I reply to, and how I reply to it. None of us are perfect and I am sure to type or post something I will regret (okay,I already have, but this is not about me!). With that being said, I hope we can continue to bicker (in a civil way) throughout this primary season. Stay strong and know that some of us on the other side of the aisle admire your willingness to apologize.

[Bread and Circus]

311. I think you missed the part in her ugly post where she flatly stated she doesn't even like Hillary

So...I think her support for Clinton has been nothing more than a ruse.

[ejbr]

317. I actually did see that..

but I think this, too, was hyperbole to attempt to get under the skin of Sanders supporters. Her level of distaste for a Sanders candidacy is so strong that she will even support someone she doesn't like to stop him.

Although I will admit that this is probably the one thing that would most likely be true in all of what was said as it makes no sense to say if false.

[Bread and Circus]

346. I don't think she likes Hillary and if I remember correctly she has said as much in other posts.

And if I remember correctly, she started as Sanders supporter.

I could be wrong.

[ejbr]

354. I can't keep up with all of this

...all I know is that she apologized for her outrageous statements. I based my comments on what I've seen, obviously. I have always known her as a strong Hillary supporter. Again, she could say she dislikes Hillary only to demonstrate how unacceptable she finds Sanders. But does she really? I know that the Hillary group LOVES her, so...

[riderinthestorm]

366. Yes, she admitted months ago she's a troll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=75932

JackinGreen's hidden post...

[bravenak]

369. Thought you were not kicking this thread anymore?

Cannot help it huh? Cause you got called on yr bull last year and smell blood in the water? I know ALL about you and what you are trying to do here. Hope you are having yourself a blast.

[riderinthestorm]

390. My mulatto, Jewish, Jamaican grandfather gives me strength every day

and as a member of the human race, I reserve the right to change my mind. You don't get to decide shit for anyone, like who gets to speak here and whose minority "enough".

Talk about hatefulness. SMH

Regardless, I really am done here. This thread has gotten so big, it's starting to take several minutes to load on my slow wifi.

[ejbr]

370. Well, thanks

for confusing me even more than I already am.

[Bread and Circus]

395. It's pretty clear to many of us. What is so confusing?

[ejbr]

404. That someone

would place so much energy into such a scheme as to promote someone they don't like. Not only that, but also making the decision that the few who apparently antagonized her can be paid back by antagonizing everyone who supports same candidate. I'm confused as to why someone would do that.

On edit: I don't disbelieve what has been presented to me, I just find it an incredible turn of events if true

[Bread and Circus]

406. Ok, I see your point now. I agree.

[ejbr]

408. Also, please see my edit

in previous post

Cheers

[aikoaiko]

293. You're alright by me even before the apology.

We are all fallible and most of us mean well here even when we argue or are passionate.

I hope your apology resonates with those who were hurt.

[Scootaloo]

297. I hope you received mine in turn, Bravenak. Check your inbox n/t

[rad51]

303. You're sorry you got caught, it's who you are, deal with it.

[Blue State Bandit]

306. I was wondering why they booted you.

No wonder you reached back to an 8 month old post in an attempt make me to feel shame and take down a post that I have no intent of deleting. You don't want to be alone in your own shame.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027060303

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027060303#post370

That's like a thief whining about somebody stealing their stolen car.

I was pointing out the personal choices of an individual who decided to step into the ring. I did not need to, nor would I ever attribute one's actions to such a thing as race.

So, I'll stay off of your posts, as long as you stop trying to justify your own actions by dragging me down to your level, or trying to contact me on other social media platforms.

[bravenak]

308. Booted? I have no clue what thats about

Making stuff up

[Blue State Bandit]

313. Booted, timed out, whatever they want to call it.

[bravenak]

319. I have not checked until you said that

I see nothing up.

[Blue State Bandit]

321. I've said my piece. I'm done.

[mmonk]

331. Cool.

Nice words.

[nadinbrzezinski]

334. I was not going to say this

but I will

Things you can do.

1.- Learn, hard to do but learn. Antisemitism is real... and I will leave it at that

2.- NEVER AGAIN, doubt the minority status of a member of this board, or their religion. You did that, off board. Plenty of times. Myself going to trash this... becuase I do not believe you, at all.

But those are the lessons for you to learn.

[Jack Rabbit]

351. Apology accepted without reservations

Yes, what you said on Frontpage was pretty vile, but you are owing up to it. That is indeed brave.

A while back, you and I had a discussion that I found elucidating. I learned much from it and thank you for your patience in responding to me. You are my friend, and I will speak highly of you at all times, defend you when you are right and forgive you when are wrong, especially when you ask to be forgiven.

[bravenak]

352. I appreciate that

[840high]

353. Apology not accepted. It's not

genuine. You got caught. I don't want poison and hatred in my life.

[hrmjustin]

364. You can always use the ignore function.

[noretreatnosurrender]

355. Apology Accepted

Bravenak, when I first came back to DU I had some good conversations with you. I told you that I appreciated you posting links to some interesting articles and I did appreciate it. I was very interested to learn about why Sanders was not connecting as well with the Black community as I had hoped. Your articles were helpful.

I haven't had conversations with you since those early days because I began to see that all of the threads you posted (at least the ones I saw) were the same and the comments that followed were all the same. It was flame war after flame war. In my opinion the subject matter is too important to discuss in the middle of a heated primary battle only because it is being twisted by people who are backing one candidate or the other for political gain. This is why I've tried to steer clear. A lot of us who are very supportive of the black community may not be very good at expressing that support during primary season. In our desire to protect and defend our candidate we may say things that come off as anti-black when it's the opposite we are trying to say. In our anger and frustration at being misunderstood, whether it's our own fault or theirs, it is causing some people to lash out and say things that are clearly wrong.

I know you understand how this happens because that's what you did when you lashed out in the post you are apologizing for writing. You know that when people continuously push your buttons that sometimes you lash out and say things you never dreamed would come out of your mouth. I accept your apology as being sincere because I've had good conversations with you in the past and believe that you did not mean what you said. And because I trust your heart I hope that you will use that heart to try to understand the perspective of other people who have said things they shouldn't have said regardless of whether they are big enough to apologize for them. I'd love to have your voice bringing people together and educating them about important issues rather than punishing them and backing them into a corner when they don't get it. Whatever you decide to do going forward I sincerely wish you the best.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

371. An apology asks for forgivness; forgiveness needs not ask for anything.

Forgiveness does not need an apology, but it doesn't hurt!

Bravenak, I forgive you. I hope we can all accept each others apologies after the primaries are completed. We will need to let bygones be bygones and work together at that point for whomever is the eventual nominee.

I'm glad I can see a side of you that I can understand and appreciate. You're not a bad person. No matter which candidate we root for, all of us want our country, and peoples lives to be better. I say things here on DU that I'm not proud of - like you said it comes from complete frustration with the attitude of some particular poster (I imagine I've had a few bouts with you myself.)

At least for today, you made DU a little kinder place. Proud of you! Peace, Love, out.

[bravenak]

372. That was really nice, thanks

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

394. Well, given some of my history here - you're even nicer!

[femmedem]

384. A poem for all of us by Wendell Berry

Enemies

If you are not to become a monster,
you must care what they think.
If you care what they think,

how will you not hate them,
and so become a monster
of the opposite kind? From where then

is love to come--love for your enemy
that is the way of liberty?
From forgiveness. Forgiven, they go

free of you and you of them;
they are to you as sunlight
on a green branch. You must not

think of them again, except
as monsters like yourself,
pitiable because unforgiving.


Edited to add: not that we are enemies here. But sometimes we forget, and act as if we are.

[kiva]

386. Apologies that only happen when someone gets caught

always have that whiff of 'forced' to them.

It's fitting that this is a political website, because this is a politician's apology - say many nasty things and get away with it; go too far and get caught; ignore it for a bit and hope it goes away; apologize because family/friends don't deserve the problems that came because of said behavior - bonus here, because it allows those friends to 'forgive', despite the fact they were not the ones that were maligned; and end with a justification.

[Hekate]

402. Sweetie, I don't know what happened, but from me to you...

I'm sure I'll find out the grim details later, but in a thread with 400 replies already, this is all I've got We'll work it out.

[jillan]

409. Are you sorry for what you said? For your blatant anti-semitic rant? Or are you like my ex who was

only sorry when he got caught?

[Hekate]

416. Brave, I just scanned this horrible thread. Come over and have some coffee with me....

[frylock]

418. Cool story

kick