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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMaximum wage
I find it interesting that we talk about a minimum wage all the time and how much (or little) it should be, but never discuss a maximum wage. In other words, how much money one person should be able to take just for him/herself per year. I've never heard a figure for that-- perhaps it's out there?
elleng
(131,051 posts)Like it or not, we live under a capitalist and democratic system that would not tolerate a 'maximum wage.'
justaddh2o
(69 posts)Why do you think a capitalist system wouldn't tolerate a maximum wage/income?
Why not a democratic system?
Is it because we like to think that there should be no limits? Or that we can't imagine there being a need for a limit... no one could possibly "take home" more money than the rest of the country combined, for example? Since it seems like a group of individuals may be coming up on that unimaginable reality, I'm wondering if it's not now time to talk about what is enough. Perhaps before now this massive amount of wealth wasn't even possible. Now that it is, do you think it merits a discussion?
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)It could be fairly high, like 10 million dollars a year, which of course is a pittance to those who make a couple of hundred million a year.
It would be reasonably straightforward to set a maximum wage in jobs that involve a salary, but what about, say, a writer? Most of them make almost nothing, but a mega best-selling author, like Steven King, no doubt makes vastly more than my proposed maximum. Of course, if we don't set an absolute maximum wage, but have a progressive tax that tops out at at least 75%, that might help.
And maybe eliminate the difference between earned and unearned income.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I do think the tax code should be increasingly progressive and not have a bracket that maxes out. If someone wants to make a billion $ per year and pay 99.9% of that in taxes, I'm all for it.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)owned by the billionaire class, not just on income. See Thomas Piketty's 'Capital in the 21st Century" for the whole story.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)This was the rage in 18th century England. Essentially if you ran, oh something like a print shop you had a cap that prevented you from paying your employees more. It is extensively discussed (and railed against) by Adam Smith in the Wealth of Nations.
FYI, this they do not teach in school, but Smith was in favor of a LIVING WAGE, which maximum wage ordinances hardly met.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Very few people, comparatively speaking, were paid wages in the modern sense. Tradespeople and artisans were about it.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I can easily see how that interpretation would come back HARD, as neoliberal policy.
Mind you, the more that I think about it, global warming and capitalism are not compatible.
justaddh2o
(69 posts)I hadn't thought about a max wage as a potential neoliberal policy to repress working people's salaries. I shouldn't have said "maximum wage" but rather "maximum income" or "maximum wealth", because that's what I was thinking about and what prompted me to post.
I wonder about the wealthy person's mindset-- and it makes me wonder how they justify having so much money. And that led me to think about how much is enough? I mean, is it $10M in wealth (not income)? Is it $100M? $1B? I mean shouldn't there be some kind of limit? And if so what should it be?
It's not that I'm advocating any policy or anything. I'm merely asking what folks think ought to be enough for a single individual to possess. Or perhaps "the sky's the limit" is the correct answer...? That doesn't feel like the right answer, but that's just me.
And the more I think about it, the more I feel that capitalism and democracy are not compatible. To paraphrase Richard Wolff, the only place we don't have democracy is in the (capitalist) workplace.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)by the way, how much is enough? GO watch the Big Short, it will explain a lot of the zetgeist at present
But also realize, stocks and money are fictional things to stand for bricks, water, buildings, rugs et al. For money to stop being anything, we collectively would have to say, it's value is zero.
With the climate changing I suspect human priorities will also change, and that includes what constitutes this artificial construct called wealth.
justaddh2o
(69 posts)I did actually see that movie recently. I guess perhaps it was part of what prompted me to write this post.
Climate change is my only issue is this current campaign. I back Bernie because he says we have to do something NOW about it. Even though I think it may already be too late. It's not a can that can be kicked anymore.
Really nothing else matters if we can't breathe (or we freeze or fry or drown or...). I hope you're right that climate change means human priorities will change... although MOM's comment about the "opportunities" in climate change turned my stomach.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Civilization is a resource concentration mechanism. It is/We are like the 1% of the economy in relation to the planet. The same way that when the 1% sucks up all the money, the economy doesn't work, when humans privatize the planet, it's not going to work.
one_voice
(20,043 posts)I do think we should have a progressive tax code--much more progressive than what we currently have; with no max out cap. I also think there should be huge penalties for people/companies that take their money off shore trying to avoid taxes.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Most of the really rich become so through owning their companies, not through a salary. Jeff Bezos of Amazon, for example, earns a salary of $85,000 per year.
justaddh2o
(69 posts)In my original post, I shouldn't have said "wage" but rather "income" or "wealth". Do you have a thought about what you would say is enough for a single person to be "worth" or how much an individual should "own", or however you want to put it? That was more the question I was trying to raise. And I'm not asking to suggest a policy or anything. Just asking if there's an upper limit in anyone's mind about individual wealth. And also wondering why this doesn't seem to be talked about.
Victor_c3
(3,557 posts)The incentive to try and better yourself needs to be out there. However, you should at least be able to make a wage you can live a respectable life with. I'm completely in favor of increasingly higher tax rates on the more money you make. The biggest shortcoming I see is that returns on investments is taxed differently than income. If you get an income from something you should pay an income tax regardless of where that income came from.
jmowreader
(50,562 posts)Seriously guys, this is stupid classist bullshit and it doesn't fix the real problem. I've said this before and will again: You are not poor because rich people make too much money. You are poor because you make too little.
Please see my reply to Nadin's post, as it might help explain my thought about why I posted. I didn't mean my original query as a policy initiative or something to be governed. I don't post much and so I misspoke in my original question...I didn't mean to talk about wage as much as income/wealth accumulation. And how much is enough?
I'd also be interested to know more about what you think the "real problem" is. Thanks.
jmowreader
(50,562 posts)Joe makes $15,000 per year. Joe's CEO makes $15 million. If The Government only allows Joe's CEO to make $1 million per year (or even more uncontrollably, to only have a net worth of $10 million) and Joe still only makes $15,000 per year, how is limiting Joe's CEO's pay going to make Joe's pay go any farther?
I took it to extremes: If you took the $24 million Walmart's CEO makes, and divided it equally among the 1.4 million US Walmart employees, each of them would receive an extra $17 per year.
If you want to improve the lot of the poor, you have to do it by increasing the pay of the poor. Wanting to cut the pay of the rich sounds like an act of jealousy to me - "I'm not rich, why should anyone else be?"
justaddh2o
(69 posts)at least not in this thread I wanted to know what you think is enough money (a dollar figure) for a single individual to have/"make" per year. I guess you're not interested in answering that question...? That's fine. It's merely an intellectual exercise to see what comes from the discussion.
I'm still interested to know what you think the "real problem" is and what the fix is. Your suggestion of "increasing the pay of the poor" doesn't really work, does it? If you put the pay of the poor up by, let's say $12/hr, but the cost of food (and rent and utilities, etc) rises 1x to 3x in the same year, there's no real increase in pay, is there? Simply raising the poor's salary doesn't help, unless there's a way to control the cost of living. Perhaps you have a suggestion for that as well?
jmowreader
(50,562 posts)Or the amount you can make per year. Simple as that.
We need a progressive taxation system. Since you only have 32 posts you don't know me, but if you check my username you will see I have always been FIRMLY in favor of a high rate/high loophole tax system - basically, you spend it or we will. If you instill a top rate of 75 percent and, at the same time, allow a LOT of deductions and credits for everything related to starting and running businesses, you will see a lot of new business activity. What one must understand here is very subtle: A Filthy Rich Person is someone who will spend ten bucks to get out of paying a dollar in tax. Bring back a good old-fashioned "create your own tax cut through your personal economic activity" tax system, and the economy WILL improve. It has to. You think Mark Cuban wants to pay 75 percent of his income to the feds?
The biggest reason to oppose a maximum wealth level, or a maximum income, it it will destroy the country. Let's throw out a nice round number and say you can only be worth $10 million and you can only earn $1 million per year, and you have to turn the rest of it in to the government. The easiest example of why that's bad is Elon Musk. If he had been required to turn over $10.7 million of the money he got when Zip2 was sold, or $164 million of the money he got when PayPal was sold, Tesla wouldn't exist in the form it does now and SpaceX wouldn't exist at all. Most people don't innovate exclusively out of altruistic considerations; they want hard currency along with the nice warm feeling of improving the world. Not all rich people are horrific bastards; yeah, Jamie Dimon and Lloyd Blankfein should be hung up by the ankles, but not all rich people are Dimon or Blankfein.
And ya know something? It's rather unbelievable that a Bernie Sanders supporter would point out "increasing the pay of the poor doesn't really work" since that is EXACTLY what your candidate proposes to do.
justaddh2o
(69 posts)I'm sorry if I've offended you with my posts. That's not what I meant at all. I'm merely curious and like to read the posts here about interesting topics. And this one has been on my mind and I noticed no one has talked about it yet. Thus my reason for posting and replying to responses, including yours.
As for your Elon Musk example, I don't know his particular financial history, but I do know that most people who start companies, no matter how big or small, usually start it with OPM, whether it's from an investor, a bank, one's grandmother, etc. So I don't think Elon needed to invest all his own money in order to create any future companies. Since he had a track record with previous successes in fact, he would have been able to get OPM pretty easily. And he's a smart guy to boot
He's also a rather curious example -- his products are innovative yes, but also quite expensive and shall I say "exclusive" -- at least so far. (A hugely expensive car, albeit an electric one, and space travel for profit). I wonder what $164M would have done for say, funding public colleges or building shelters for the homeless.
This does bring up a corollary to my original question though and that is this: if someone keeps more than they need (as you suggest a limitless amount), then are they then free to spend that limitless amount on anything else they want? If so, then does the public at large have any say in it? Perhaps not, if the individual spends it on something that only benefits or applies to that wealthy individual. But what about them spending their wealth on something that could hurt others? The Koch Brothers spring to my mind, for example.
Therefore, shouldn't the spending of surplus (if not the limiting of the surplus) be somehow voted on, since we live in a democratic system, and since it can affect the well being or pain of everyone?
As for your last comment about how you find it unbelievable that I don't think increasing hourly rates would work, it's because I'm even more "radical" than Bernie. I think we should democratize the workplace and convert all businesses to worker-owned cooperatives. That way the profits to the business are distributed fairly to all employees. Employees set wages and pick their managers. To my way of thinking, this is the only way to eliminate income inequality. A progressive taxing system and increased hourly rates are merely a stop-gap measure that can't work long term. They're based on a purely capitalist perspective and sooner or later we'll come to realize that capitalism can't be fixed. As Hillary said, she wanted to "save capitalism from itself". I have to ask, why bother? Especially when there are other systems to explore. We'll get beyond capitalism at some point. At least I hope so.
Just because I support Bernie doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. I do agree with the majority of what he proposes and I feel his stance on climate change mirrors mine and is the one issue that I care most about. If we can't breathe, everything else is moot.
I hope I've not offended. I'm really interested in your take and enjoy reading your perspective.
Wounded Bear
(58,685 posts)back when the top marginal rate was 90%. Back then it was at 3 or 5 mill/year IIRC. Essentially, if you make more than that (AGI, of course) the gov't will take 90% of all money past that and use it in the general fund.
Frankly, it was a pretty effective way to get wealthy people to direct more of their incomes back into their businesses/investments to get below that maximum income level. Now, with those old top brackets taken down and the rates relaxed, the incentives are much different.
justaddh2o
(69 posts)Okay, so doesn't this mean that in the 50s, we as a nation thought that 10% of $5M (using the larger number) is enough for a single individual to "take home" per year? In today's dollars, that $500K of 1950's money would come to $5M, interestingly enough.
Does that seem like the right amount to you? I'm curious... not trying to be snarky. I'm really just interested in people's perception of what they think is enough money per year for someone to "earn"/acquire. I think it's interesting to see what people think the real dollar amount should be. Not what policies we should put in place or anything like that. Thanks.
Wounded Bear
(58,685 posts)Reset and understand the concept of marginal tax rates, and rates in general.
Everybody pays the same rate on their income in each bracket. The 10% number you're quoting would be 10% of income earned above $5 mill. All income up to $5 mill would be taxed at the same rates as everybody else. That's why progressive rates are constitutional. Everybody pays the same rates on the levels that they earn at. Not sure where that number would be now, but I suspect it would be in the $25-50 mill range equivalent.
IMO we should re-insitute additional brackets that were eliminated during the Reagan years, adjusted for inflation, of course.
Now, in fairness, the 50's rates were based on paying back the debts incurred from the Great Depression and WWII. Kennedy did the first round of cutting those because much of that debt had been retired by then. We could use a round of high tax rates right now to cover the Great Recession and the War on Terror debt. Even with that, it wouldn't be close to 90% though.
Hell, Clinton raised the top rate by 3% and had deficit spending under control at the end of his term. Bush repealed them and we've had deficits ever since. The Repub answer is to cut taxes more. Forgive me if I don't think that would work.
jmowreader
(50,562 posts)When Kennedy came into office, the top rate was 90 percent. A very large part of the reason it was that high was Eisenhower's wanting to retaliate against The Rich for profiteering off World War II defense contracts while the men slogging through the mud were earning $37 per month. And y'know, that was kinda petty but he did have a point.
Kennedy's tax plan reduced the 90 percent rate to 70. This did three things:
1) It gave the wealthiest recipients of the tax cut enough savings to do substantial things.
2) It left enough money in Federal hands to do substantial things, like construct the Interstate Highway System and shoot rockets into outer space.
and
3) It hit just before IBM dropped the System/360 mainframe family on a waiting world. Businesses could afford to buy these miracle machines with the money they weren't sending to the government. (There were computers before the S/360, but almost all were leased and very few were in circulation. Utilities and big businesses had them, but smaller businesses were still using manual calculation and filing.)
The Reagan tax cuts were different: they shoved tax revenues to the left side of the Laffer Curve, which caused significant government spending slowdown which hit the private sector (the government buys what it needs from the same place you do, they just buy a lot more of it), and the "breakthrough technology" of the 1980s - the IBM PC - was relatively inexpensive. IBM big iron is a multimillion-dollar investment; a really top-notch PC was the price of a used car. The old trick of "stimulating the economy" with tax cuts doesn't work anymore, because taxes aren't high enough. Cutting the rate by one percent to try to stimulate the economy is like trying to tickle a rhinoceros with a hummingbird feather. We're at the point where the only way we can "stimulate" the economy through government action is to spend a trillion dollars on infrastructure and hope like hell the new roads create new business.
justaddh2o
(69 posts)I guess what I was trying to say (and wasn't clear) was that when you stated that the tax rate in the 1950s was 90%, I thought it might mean that the remainder (or 10%) of the income was what the government felt was necessary to leave to the individual to live on. But you're right, if the person made more than the $5M upper bracket, they would keep that extra money as well, so the 10% left over after taxes is just another minimum amount, not a maximum.
See, I'm still trying to get an idea of what you (and anyone else who cares to comment) think an upper limit on a person's income should be.... no tax rates or brackets. It's actually a much simpler question I'm just curious what folks think should be a number for how much someone should be able to keep for themselves per year. Another poster has already said there should be no limit. Do you think so, too?
Thanks for replying. I do like reading your responses.
Wounded Bear
(58,685 posts)and I don't have a good answer to that. I guess I don't believe in a 'hard cap' so to speak.
I do like the idea of high marginal tax rates on incomes over a certain amount, though, but only if the incentives are aimed at reinvestment here, not offshore protection.
Also a big current problem is the lower rates on investment income. It should be taxed like regular income IMHO.
If you held a gun to my head I would probably say something around $50-100 mill.
Frankly, I'd like to see a tax on wealth.
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)In the 50s when the top marginal tax rate was 91%
Wounded Bear
(58,685 posts)I think we need to re-incorporate some higher brackets that were eliminated under Reagan.
Unfortunately, what has happened is that now pretty much all of Congress is in that top bracket, and we would be trying to get them to vote in a tax increase on themselves. Yeah, that'll happen soon.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)You can have a ceiling and floor, no ceiling and a floor, a ceiling but no floor, or no ceiling and no floor. Those are pretty much the only options.
justaddh2o
(69 posts)Seems like now we have a floor but no ceiling, yes? That's what got me thinking about this and wondering why we don't discuss the ceiling. Do you think we don't talk about it because we think it would prevent progress as you suggest? Or perhaps it's our "American dream" to think of no upper limits?
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)The floor limits, we can make that work. That can be done in a more fair way. Limits to what we can try to do at the top though? No, we're not good with that. We can't agree on what's fair then.
That's one reason our environmental issues are so complex. We live on a finite planet, but we don't want to. We try and find a way around those limits every time we come up against them. We manage to do it, but each time we do, there's a cost to it. Since human society is good at privatizing profits and socializing costs, we try our best to make other species pay that price. Although, obviously, it has been other humans at times.
frizzled
(509 posts)We can't criminalize anger, but we can criminalize the effects of anger, like murder.
We should introduce the death penalty for extreme greed, like
* Having over a 30% bonus on base salary
* Spending over $100,000 on a car
* Buying a house with over 500 sq m area
* Earning over 2 million dollars a year
* Having over 5 million dollars in wealth
* Investing money in schemes that are expected to return over 3% of inflation per year
That would go a long way to correcting inequalities of wealth and income. Other measures should include the criminalisation of greed, and the abolition of selective educational systems, especially at tertiary level.
Wounded Bear
(58,685 posts)but then all of the websites and message boards would go silent.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)So President Obama should be driven around in a Hyundai or something? I don't think the secret service will like that...and if he can have a $100,000+ car, no one else can? Like some sort of Royal class of politician? Good luck with that...
Cuba or North Korea may be a better fit for those ideas...
frizzled
(509 posts)And we're obviously going to ban all guns before we get around to criminalizing wealth, so there won't be any need for armor plated cars. Obama can get around on a bike.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Who both dwarf the US in gun homicides?
frizzled
(509 posts)The US isn't one of them, and the guns in Mexico and Jamaica originate from the USA.
Many states have practical bans on guns, and you're dishonest not to acknowledge it.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Jamaica is a failed state?
All Jamaican & Mexican guns do not come from the US. Many will say "Norinco" on them.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)why would a "maximum wage" be necessary?
frizzled
(509 posts)Wealth causes corruption.
Money is power, so allowing some people to be millions of times richer than others is an economic dictatorship.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Not because one group doesn't have enough, but because another has too much? That's not going to happen in the US, ever.
If we want to deal with the issue of buying influence, we should address that issue head-on.
frizzled
(509 posts)Money is in constant flux, it would take extraordinary efforts not to redistribute it.
If we want to deal with the issue of buying influence, we should address that issue head-on.
You will never stop people buying influence as long as there are billionaires.
jmowreader
(50,562 posts)A good start would be to require anyone making a negative ad to explain what he or she would do better.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)prevent people from making too much money? Even if you set a "maximum wage" there will still be super wealthy people who aren't rich because of their yearly income.
frizzled
(509 posts)But if they are prevented from being wealthy by confiscation and redistribution, we can keep them from buying the system.
It's true that income is not all of wealth, so we will have to confiscate total wealth over a certain level.
A punitive inheritance tax would help a lot.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Is that somehow better?
frizzled
(509 posts)nt
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)frizzled
(509 posts)nt
Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)hunter
(38,322 posts)Taxes on income and wealth at say twenty times the minimum comfortable living income should be very high, say 80-90%.
Everyone would be happier, I dare say the very wealthy would be too. Life's not improved for having to hire bodyguards and security experts.
That's my "realistic" view. In my utopias we've abandoned money entirely. How does the economy work in Star Trek TNG?
In the Star Trek it seems you don't need money to live comfortably. The unemployed and the unemployable don't lack any of the necessities and basic comforts of life, including plenty of opportunities to improve themselves and their communities. I figure everyone has a place to call their own for as long as they desire to stay in one place. For some it will be a quiet place with a garden, for some a place in the heart of a densely populated city. And EVERYONE having sexual relationships where pregnancy is possible will use birth control. The human population of the earth will actually be declining as natural environments are restored or recreated.
And, oh, there are NO AUTOMOBILES allowed in places like Yosemite National Park or most larger cities.
Warpy
(111,317 posts)No one is being served by the current extortionate system, especially the shareholders.
The parasites have got to go.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Invent some wonderful thing? Very high
Own a thriving business and take care of your employees? Very high
Do the handling money thing? ..banks, gambling on stock market? Not near as high (1 million per year?)
GummyBearz
(2,931 posts)The highest paid person's salary in every company is linked to the lowest paid person in the company. The difference could be quite large, for example 100x. So if the janitor makes $7/hour, the CEO could make a maximum of $700/hour (that's around $1.4mil per year). If the CEO wants a raise of 10%, he has to give the janitors a raise of 10% to keep the same 100x multiple.
His maximum salary is then linked to the minimum he pays his employees. This may seem to leave out the mid level employees who make somewhere between the CEO and janitor, but it is just a basic description... some refinement could be done to include them.