This event appears to be workplace violence, not terrorism

[philosslayer]

Its very similar to the case of Major Hasan who shot up Ft. Hook. Dr. Farook was an employee of the State Department of Health, and killed his coworkers. Sad and tragic.

[Jesus Malverde]

1. So hassan wasn't a terrorist?

Just a disgruntled worker?

[philosslayer]

5. According to the DoD it was a case of workplace violence, not terrorism

So no. Major Hasan was a murderer; not a terrorist.

[Jesus Malverde]

11. Wishful thinking.

The Army psychiatrist accused in the 2009 shooting rampage at Fort Hood targeted fellow soldiers in a meticulously planned attack that included stockpiling bullets and researching Taliban leaders calling for jihad, a military prosecutor said Tuesday during the opening day of the long-awaited trial.

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan spent time at a shooting range and purchased a pistol and extender kit to hold more ammunition before carrying out his plan to "kill as many soldiers as he could" while avoiding civilians, Col. Steve Henricks told jurors. The shooting, which killed 13 people and injured more than 30 others on the sprawling Texas military base, remains the deadliest mass shooting ever on a U.S. military installation.

Henricks alleged that Hasan didn't want to deploy after getting his orders about three weeks before the shootings, and that "he came to believe he had a jihad duty to murder to his fellow soldiers." The American-born Muslim later told a doctor at the base that, "'They've got another thing coming if they think they are going to deploy me,'" Henricks said.

"He then yelled 'Allahu akbar!' and opened fire on unarmed, unsuspecting and defenseless soldiers," Henricks told the jury, noting that one of the soldiers who was killed had run after Hasan armed with only a chair

The government has said that Hasan had sent more than a dozen emails starting in December 2008 to Anwar al-Awlaki, a radical U.S.-born Islamic cleric killed by a drone strike in Yemen in 2011.

http://news.yahoo.com/maj-hasan-evidence-show-am-shooter-150526861.html

Obvious is obvious. I understand the DOD's reluctance to admit this was a successful terrorist attack.

[GGJohn]

13. Hassan? Work place violence?

Are you for real?
This is a terrorist attack, as was the Colorado shootings, Sandy Hook, as was Ft. Hood, it just remains to be seen if it's domestic terrorism or foreign inspired terrorism.

[philosslayer]

21. I repeat, the Federal Government categorizes the Ft Hood shooting as workplace violence

If you have a problem with that, take it up with them, not me.

[GGJohn]

26. I don't give a fuck what the Feds say, it was outright terrorism

and it's you that's pushing this meme.

[philosslayer]

34. I think the Feds know a bit more about what happened than you do.

[GGJohn]

44. And have the Feds called this a workplace violence incident yet?

Why no, they haven't, but here you are saying it is.

[philosslayer]

46. *sigh* Reading comprehension anyone?

I said "appears to be" based on similarities with the Hasan case and how it was categorized. That could obviously change as more facts are unearthed.

[GGJohn]

53. Thank you for saying that things could change as more facts are unearthed.

It would seem that the FBI and ATF are starting to lean towards it being an act of terrorism, it remains to be seem, if true, whether it's domestic or foreign inspired terrorism.

[philosslayer]

58. Unlike some in this room...

I would never say that this act is DEFINITELY something while the bodies are still warm and we don't even know everyone involved. I was just suggesting a parallel.

[GGJohn]

62. Point taken.

It's all good, we're all extremely saddened by this latest mass shooting.

[melman]

71. A parallel

like when you suggested Paris was a false flag?

[philosslayer]

73. I suggested nothing

I raised a possibility when very few facts were known. I was wrong, and have admitted it. Your point?

[Logical]

78. Gullible much? Nt

[Act_of_Reparation]

87. I think the feds know how to put a guy in prison without making extra work for themselves.

Put your thinking cap on and put yourself in the position of a prosecutor.

You have a guy who clearly shot a bunch of people. The shortest distance between the court room and a jail cell is a murder charge. Why make your life more difficult building a case for terrorism when you already have the guy red-handed on a charge that will put him away for the rest of his life? In the long run, what difference does it make? He's going to jail forever either way.

I'd bet dollars to donuts Dear is going to be charged with murder -- not terrorism -- unless some idealistic prosecutor wants to make an example of him.

[The Roux Comes First]

92. Excellent Point

I'd appreciate having the "terrorism" term accurately applied to so many of these domestic cases, but I take your point.

[Logical]

79. You are 100% correct on this! Nt

[WillowTree]

99. Actually, I believe that with the passage of the 2014 National Defense Authorization Act.......

.......the Ft. Hood massacre was re-classified as domestic terrorism earlier this year and the Pentagon has finally awarded the victims their well-deserved Purple Hearts, which they were previously denied because of the ridiculous "workplace violence" designation.

[Yupster]

49. You sound like this is the first you've heard of this

This has been a criticism of the government for years.

Right wingers have used this as example number one of why Obama is a Muslim or a Muslim sympathizer, or delusional or has his head buried in the sand when it comes to terrorism.

[hrmjustin]

18. The government was wrong.

[6chars]

27. We have always been at war with Eastasia

[Codeine]

36. DoD ass-covering is not to be taken seriously

by thinking people.

[The Roux Comes First]

91. Bingo

Ass-covering and evasion indeed.

Of course it was in that case terrorism with roots in a fanatical take-off on a non-Christian religion.

The press (and of course everyone to the right of, say, Joe Biden has somewhat parallel dysfunction in being absolutely dumb-struck when it comes to being forthright that PPH shootings and so many other such events with a political motive and including instilling fear as either an ex- or implicit motive are terrorism with roots in a fanatical take-off on Christian principles.

[Kilgore]

57. You really beleive that??

If so, wanna buy a bridge?

[Fast Walker 52]

112. Hasan was in contact with Anwar Awlaki

Seems ridiculous that it wasn't terrorism.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/08/nidal-hasan-anwar-awlaki-emails-fbi-fort-hood

[hrmjustin]

2. Not sure. Remains to be seen.

[hrmjustin]

3. And Hassan was a terrorist.

[Recursion]

14. Not by the government's broken definition

If you're killing people you personally know, for whatever reason "that's different".

[leftynyc]

121. It was reclassified as terrorism

due to some law passed in 2015 (that Pres Obama signed). The victims were awarded purple hearts due to the reclassification.

[chillfactor]

4. this event does not mean anything yet...

workplace violence or terrorism....let's wait until all of the facts are in.

[stranger81]

6. I can buy the workplace explanation for one shooter, but three?

Three homicidally (and effectively suicidally) disgruntled employees or former employees?

Seems at least improbable, if not highly improbable.

[trumad]

8. It might be just two---

Seems they are unsure about the 3rd.

[stranger81]

17. I also just saw that the LAT is naming one of the suspects.

And that name is going to incite all of our usual suspects to amp up the shouting about Islamic terrorism.

😕

[Codeine]

40. Shouldn't people be shouting about Islamic terrorism?

Would you be reluctant to shout about right wing militia terrorism?

[LiberalElite]

31. IMO the other 1 or 2 could just have been

helpful friends. Maybe the female was his girlfriend? It's still unclear whether there were 2 or 3.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Your verbiage leaves out two of the three shooters. They killed these people, not he, they.

That's what's not at all like workplace violence and why it all remains to be seen.

[tishaLA]

9. the ATF agent just on KNBC seemed convinced that it was thoroughly planned

and kept referencing the Boston Bombings

[Codeine]

10. Hasan was a terrorist as well.

Bending over backwards to coddle these people makes liberals look fucking stupid.

[GGJohn]

15. +1000. eom.

[bettyellen]

16. Yep. Most terrorists ALSO have their personal demons. Shooting up a building of strangers is

terrorism. They weren't there to rob people.

[itsrobert]

22. Bingo

you got that right.

[DashOneBravo]

12. Sarcasm?

Hasan yelleded Allahu Akbar right before he shot up a room full of helpless support soldiers.

[philosslayer]

25. No sarcasm

It was workplace violence according to the DoD and the FBI. Thats is the official designation. I think they know more facts about the incident than you do.

[DashOneBravo]

63. The Ft Hood victims

Where finally awarded Purple Hearts for the shooting. That's a combat award.

Also Hasan doesn't rate being addressed by his rank anymore. He's a piece of shit. That's why he didn't shoot up a combat unit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. OP thinks reduction ad absurdam is clever argumentation, so he

Runs around here pretending to be an "irrational liberal." It's a pathetic pose, but hey, who am I to judge how people spend their time.

[philosslayer]

64. If you are near a television....

I suggest you turn it to MSNBC. At this moment (10:30 EST) they are discussing the possibility that this is workplace violence.

Clearly you enjoy following me. I'm flattered. But perhaps a hobby is warranted.

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. Oh Lawd

That your sophomoric strategy is obvious doesn't mean that anyone gives a shit about it.

[philosslayer]

70. I don't have a "strategy"

But if no one gives a shit about it, why do you feel compelled to follow me around? Origami maybe. Or needlepoint. I hear its relaxing.

[alcibiades_mystery]

74. The old

"You're following me around" shit is as lame and played out as the rest of your act.

[philosslayer]

76. Oh.. .and decaf

Try the decaf too. Serenity now.... Serenity now.....(it helps)

[philosslayer]

81. CNN, MSNBC, and CBS

All have talked about the possibility of this being workplace violence tonight. So do they ascribe to "reductio ad absurdum" as well? (And by the way, if you're going to use fancy latin words to sound smart, its more effective if you spell them correctly. A helpful hint )

[still_one]

19. no, Major Hasan was not workplace violence, it was Islamic fundamentlist terrorism. What do you

you think Hasan's motive was?

He said his motive for the attack, was that he was out to protect the leader of the Taliban and what he called the “Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.”

[bettyellen]

42. I still think, like many unhinged killers he was spurned on by some personal failure...

that Boston bomber certainly was. If he had made Golden Gloves, he would never have been that angry.

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. NBC just spelled the name FAROOK. I'd like to know where you're getting your information from.

[philosslayer]

29. My apologies. I've changed the post.

[Texasgal]

23. Why is that so many people

here on DU will go to great lengths to deny Islamic terrorism?

UGH.

[trumad]

28. Because it's that thing called proof.

[Texasgal]

35. We have more than enough proof that

Major Hassan was a fucking terrorist.

The OP states that this was work place violence. Where is his proof? Does proof not go both ways here?

[trumad]

38. Yep...

[philosslayer]

45. I said "appears to be" at first blush

Obviously, that could change as more facts are unearthed.

[Codeine]

33. Especially considering the way people like us

are viewed by Islamists. It borders on suicidal.

[RandySF]

37. I'm not calling it terrorism and I'm not ruling it out.

But how often does a disgruntled working bring two people in commando gear?

[TwilightGardener]

24. I guess it could be both. It obviously wasn't random, but there may have

been motives beyond personal anger or hatred for specific coworkers.

[LiberalElite]

41. It could have been a combo- shoot up the place but do it like ISIS eom

[RandySF]

32. But three people showing up?

[bettyellen]

39. Syed Farook, named earlier seems to be a former employee there.....

and several sources are now naming him and possibly his brother as shooters. Who the hell knows, if he lost his job, that might have radicalized him- same as the Boston bomber being a shit boxer in a dead end job.

[philosslayer]

47. Exactly my point

No one knows his motives yet. I am only postulating a theory based on other similar cases.

[bettyellen]

51. I think when you target a group of strangers, it is terrorism. Most terrorists are failures at life.

And turn their anger externally, blaming groups of people. I don;t see this as anything different. The army base guy was definitely a terrorist.

[951-Riverside]

56. If he was a former employee then why he there to begin with?

I'm talking about when he was there before he left and then allegedly came back.

[haele]

103. Same reason a General Dynamics laid-off employee left his workplace,but returned the next week...

and shot up the offices where his former supervisor and HR personnel were.
Same reason a young guy with no confidence and no future who was facing discharge from the military brought a .22 handgun into the workspace, tried to shoot the Division Officer that was pushing the discharge, and when that failed, shot himself in the hallway the day he was scheduled for the hearing that would send him to courts-martial.
These are both workplace shootings in locations where I've been employed, and that I've had to deal with "fall-out" from.

Because neither could stand that they were being fired "for cause" - ruining their careers and future. Neither felt they could get mitigation for the situation and confronted supervisors because they felt the charges against them were crushingly unjust or didn't warrant that serious a punishment.

If the guy had been fired or let go, and brought his wife/SO, brother, and ammunition with him to a holiday party where the people who fired him were, he was looking to payback what he felt was the destruction of his ability to take care of his family.

The worst thing employers can do is to fire people at a workplace "get together", where some people are told to go to the boss's office or a spare office "to discuss future tasking" - and escorted off the premises right then and there without a chance to go back and pick up personal items at their desk or locker. They're told they can pick up their personal items that have been boxed up at the loading dock the next day. If they're lucky, someone might go back to the desk or locker and bring them their coats, brief-cases, tool boxes or purses before they leave.

That's not a reason for mass murder.

This is not an excuse, this is a potential motive.
But it can push someone who isn't quite stable over the edge.
And all the "mental health" initiatives in the world can't make up for the fact that some employers don't know - or don't care - how to handle employees in crisis situations like firings or downsizing.

Haele

[B2G]

109. But he wasn't laid off or fired. His coworkers said they liked him.

He was pulling in 70K a year. They had just thrown him a baby shower.

[haele]

111. Then that appears not to be the motive in this shooting.

So I will stop speculating further until there is a stable timeline and trail of evidence - especially honest testimony about what made him apparently leave the meeting angry.

But workplace harassment (real or imaginary), getting reduced hours, being fired or laid off with poor communication from management is what typically causes these sorts of events.

Haele

[FLPanhandle]

48. Don't be intellectually dishonest just because he is Muslim

This is terrorism period.

[philosslayer]

52. Hope that knee doesn't cause a bruise as it jerks into your face

You know the motives of the people who did this? Based on what exactly?

[FLPanhandle]

54. Logic.

Don't be afraid of the facts just because those facts make you uncomfortable.

[philosslayer]

55. So its "definitely" terrorism because of "logic"

gotcha.

[FLPanhandle]

60. Yep

Welcome to the real world.

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. I'm not sure, but it seems to me the guy who posted the OP felt he knew the motives...

[philosslayer]

61. Consult a dictionary

There is a difference between "appears to be" and "definitely". I was suggesting a potential parallel to another case of a mass shooting in a workplace. Obviously, that may change as more facts are known.

[cherokeeprogressive]

86. Well... you sure went to great lengths to defend "appears to be", while arguing Hassan wasn't

a terrorist.

[philosslayer]

88. I wasn't "arguing Hassan wasn't a terrorist"

The Federal Government has determined he wasn't a terrorist.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

93. The federal government was full of shit

naming that workplace violence rather than terrorism perpetrated by a radicalized Muslim shooter.

[cherokeeprogressive]

94. The Federal Government can go fuck itself on that count as far as I'm concerned.

And if you honestly, in your heart of hearts believe that because the government says so, Hassan WASN'T a terrorist... I wouldn't give a nickel for any other opinion you hold dear.

The Federal Government has a long and well-documented history of lying to American Citizens. The Federal Government had an absolute stake in convincing the public that a devout Muslim, screaming Allahu Akbar while spraying innocent people with lead wasn't a terrorist but instead a disgruntled employee.

Claiming over and over again that Hassan wasn't a terrorist because the U.S. Government says so takes either a shit ton of intellectual dishonesty, or naivete in the first degree, or both.

[flamingdem]

50. Workplace violence doesn't usually include others in masks and tactical gear

well maybe this is a new way of "going postal"

[FLPanhandle]

65. Of course it isn't workplace violence

But some people are more interested in maintaining their personal belief bubbles, so they can't admit any facts into their heads that contradict their world view. It's pathetic, intellectually dishonest, and quite sad.

[philosslayer]

68. I'm watching MSNBC discuss that possibility as we speak

And CBS has discussed it also (i'm wearing out the remote control). I would suggest we wait for facts before deciding "of course" what it was or wasn't.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

97. Oh, you mean like the obviously racist football ref?

How'd that story pan out again?

[jberryhill]

66. And enlisting two other people?

A run of the mill disgruntled worker does not generally get two other heavily armed and armored partners.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

77. They were also very angry about things at their respective workplaces.

The plan was to hit the other fellas' workplaces in subsequent weeks.

[jberryhill]

80. Kind of like Strangers on a Train meets Horrible Bosses?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

82. Like that, with a little Throw Momma From the Train on the side.

[jberryhill]

84. That was the other one on my mind

I don't get too interested in the "why" of these things much anymore, because ultimately it doesn't matter. People are dead, and there is no "reason" to be found.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

89. well, we do have an important question that will need to be answered.

Were these people inspired by, or acting at the behest of Middle Eastern terrorists, or weren't they? Because if this is actually a workplace violence issue, I haven't seen anything this hardcore since the H-Dog himself, Herbert Kornfeld, went to war on the Accounts Payable department at Midstate Office Supply.

http://www.theonion.com/blogpost/it-wuz-always-bout-tha-numbahs-16650

[philosslayer]

90. I'm glad you see the humor in all of this.

Really. I am.

[jberryhill]

95. There is a fine line between humor and despair

People speculate about the "reason" for these kinds of senseless things like it's some kind of game show.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

96. I shouldn't need to explain this, but...

...the humor was targeted at the farcical notion that this shooting was based solely on a workplace dispute.

[philosslayer]

98. If you have the time

Review the analysis being done on multiple news channels. The analysis suggests it is hardly farcical.

[Warren Stupidity]

116. The "analysis" was bullshit, as always.

You need to do your own analysis with the confirmed data. You were ok with the workplace gone postal theory except you ignored the other facts, multiple shooters and clear pre planning. Both of those don't fit the "got into a dispute at the party" catalyst to going postal, and those facts were available when you posted your op. Shortly after you posted another fact came into play, after going home the shooters got back into their rented suv in their assault costumed with a lot of weapons and drove off, at which point they got intercepted and killed by the police. That set of facts again put your theory into the highly dubious bucket.

[philosslayer]

117. Then please inform the President

Because he posited the theory of workplace violence just this morning. You have no idea what their motivation was. I was simply positing a theory based on the definition of workplace violence and a recent similar example.

[Warren Stupidity]

118. Seems you've learned nothing.

I tried. Apply the actual facts to the proposed theory. If the facts render the theory invalid, reject the theory, no matter how much you wish it to be true, no matter how uncomfortable alternative explanations make you feel. I listed the reasons why your theory was obviously wrong, and yet you still keep defending it with "somebody said so on tv".

[philosslayer]

119. not just "someone". The President of the United States

Who has WAY more facts at his disposal than either you or I do.

[friendly_iconoclast]

120. That's an 'appeal to authority'

[beam me up scottie]

67. Where did the other two work?

I'm not willing to speculate at this point, but I doubt he was able to convince two other people to shoot up his workplace just because he was angry with his coworkers.

Since his father said he was a devout Muslim I think that directly contradicts your theory.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

72. It would be the first case ever of a disgrunted co-worker getting other people to help shoot....

.....up his workplace and co-workers.

Sorry, it's not going to fit into the neat little box you want it to for the "optics".

[FLPanhandle]

75. Shhh

You are interfering with the OP narrative with pesky facts.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

85. Mark my words. This Saad Farooq will be the right-wing's wet dream

He's now "that Muslim you work with". In all the wrong ways. The way the cretins imagine it.

[rollin74]

83. if it were a lone shooter I would agree. multiple people involved tells me this is something more

[philosslayer]

100. The President just affirmed this possibility as well

n/t

[B2G]

101. He also affirmed the possbility that it was terrorism.

Which you do not.

[peace13]

102. And he gets the award for the most awesomely prepared disgruntled employee yet.

He had time to get the baby to grandma's, load his wife in the car, throw the fake bomb in and get dressed and guns loaded ...before driving back to the event! Covering his face so no one could see him was a great touch. This couple was ....shall I say very professional.

[peace13]

104. Question about long guns....

....are they easy to use or would this irate couple need to get training on how to use them?

[bklyncowgirl]

106. According to the reports he enjoyed target shooting.

[peace13]

107. I wonder about his wife.

She does't look like a very big person.

[Ichingcarpenter]

105. Capitalism Creates Mass Murderers by Causing People to 'Malfunction'

A part of the equation

This Theorist Believes That Capitalism Creates Mass Murderers by Causing People to 'Malfunction'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/102410652

[1939]

113. Ummm

He was a government employee, not "victim of capitalism". Believing that employees in a socialist paradise won't be maltreated and fired by their supervisors is naive.

[KamaAina]

108. While we argue this point at DU, over on the right, it's a slam dunk

Teh evul Mooslim terraists are taking over 'Murka with that there Shari'a law!!11!11!! Today San Bernardino, tomorrow Washington, D.C.!!111!1!!11!!

[philosslayer]

110. That's the difference between us and them

We can have a rational discussion on the possibilities

[1939]

114. Didn't take you long to declare Dear a "terrorist"

and worry about Sovereign Citizens or the Tea Party taking over.

[KamaAina]

115. There was nothing pointing to workplace violence

and Planned Parenthood is a much more obvious terrorist target than a holiday office party.