General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"I only eat natural food!" No you don't.
Take at look at these foods, ALL of them modified.
w0nderer
(1,937 posts)FSogol
(45,484 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Vaccines forced upon infants, there is now an explosion in the numbers of kids who are allergic to peanuts.
With very serious outcomes for the kids if they are exposed to peanuts.
FSogol
(45,484 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Archae
(46,327 posts)I didn't think so.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Is what contains the peanut particulates.
It is Vaccine Manufacturing 101.
Archae
(46,327 posts)In fact I read the below, and found nothing about peanuts.
You have something, show me.
Vaccine production has several stages. First, the antigen itself is generated. Viruses are grown either on primary cells such as chicken eggs (e.g., for influenza) or on continuous cell lines such as cultured human cells (e.g., for hepatitis A).[56] Bacteria are grown in bioreactors (e.g., Haemophilus influenzae type b). Likewise, a recombinant protein derived from the viruses or bacteria can be generated in yeast, bacteria, or cell cultures. After the antigen is generated, it is isolated from the cells used to generate it. A virus may need to be inactivated, possibly with no further purification required. Recombinant proteins need many operations involving ultrafiltration and column chromatography. Finally, the vaccine is formulated by adding adjuvant, stabilizers, and preservatives as needed. The adjuvant enhances the immune response of the antigen, stabilizers increase the storage life, and preservatives allow the use of multidose vials.[57] Combination vaccines are harder to develop and produce, because of potential incompatibilities and interactions among the antigens and other ingredients involved.[58]
Vaccine production techniques are evolving. Cultured mammalian cells are expected to become increasingly important, compared to conventional options such as chicken eggs, due to greater productivity and low incidence of problems with contamination. Recombination technology that produces genetically detoxified vaccine is expected to grow in popularity for the production of bacterial vaccines that use toxoids. Combination vaccines are expected to reduce the quantities of antigens they contain, and thereby decrease undesirable interactions, by using pathogen-associated molecular patterns.[58]
In 2010, India produced 60 percent of the world's vaccine worth about $900 million(670 million).[59]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#Production
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Try not to do your usual globalizing. (A logical fallacy approach to discussion.)
You might look up the 1996 journal "Vaccine" published in Canada that discusses the introduction of peanut oil into the culture.
Archae
(46,327 posts)Message 37 has the debunking of your myth.
And this site:
http://vaccinechoicecanada.com/
(The one you were probably referring to,) is an anti-vaxx quack site.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)http://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients#.VlzxLZDTlpU
Adjuvants are substances added to vaccines that allow them to work better by enhancing the immune response to the vaccine, decreasing the quantity of vaccine needed to gain protective immunity, or lowering the number of doses required. Currently, only two types of adjuvants are approved for use in the United States: aluminum salts and monophoshoryl lipid A.
Squalene is an adjuvant approved in Europe, but not in the United States. Because it is an oil-in-water emulsion, some people wonder whether they can get vaccines if they have allergies to peanut or corn oils. However, these oils are not in vaccines
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Iw ill try and retrieve the nameof ssaid book.
Now peanuts may not have been deliberately used inside a cultural media, but because of the absolute waste and filth of these terrible cheapskate laboratories, they end up in the media where the vaccine is cultured. (And yes, eggs are the main body of what a cultured vaccine should be exposed to, but the "should's" are very differnt from what actually happens.)
The SF Chronicle had an editor back in 1999 or 2000 who was so upset that the upper class, more educated people in the SF Bay area were not vaccinating their kids, that he assigned a crack team of reporters to visit the labs so that they could write a report and then the article could be used to demonstrate how extremely careful the process happens to be.
But instead, the reporters found the laboratories to be swimming in filth, with the various culturing media exposed to live virus material, live bacterial material and dust, dirt, germs and filth that they wrote an extremely critical article. (That article is somewhere in a box of articles inside my garage - fifty five banker boxes full of all the "dirt" I have collected on Big Pharma, Big Energy and Big Pesticide over the forty years I have examined these "institutions."
It is to the SF Chronicle's credit that the article was actually written, and if my memory serves me, it was actually a series rather than one article. One thing mentioned in the article was how the labs are always told upfront whenever any risk of being inspected by FDA or other people could occur. But of course, the actual inspectors rarely visit any labs as they are few in number!
Here is link to NYT article abt peanut inclusion in vaccine, 1964show the use of peanuts or peanut oil:
http://www.nytimes.com/1964/09/19/peanut-oil-used-in-a-new-vaccine.html?_r=0
PEANUT OIL USED IN A NEW VACCINE
STACY V. JONES; Special to The New York Times SEPT. 19, 1964
WASHINGTON, Sept. 18A pharmaceutical manufacturer has developed a vaccine that it predicts will considerably lengthen immunity from influenza and other virus infections, thereby requiring fewer shots.
From Our Advertisers
The key ingredient, called Adjuvant 65, which contains peanut oil, was patented this week for Merck & Co., Inc., by Dr. Allen F. Woodhour and Dr. Thomas B. Stim. They, discovered it in the company's research laboratory at West Point, Pa.
Present procedure, according to Merck, is to give annual injections of killed influenza virus, which are expected to afford protection for a year. The hope is that the new vaccine will extend the immunity to at least two years and be more effective during that period.
The current issue of the New England Journal of Medicine reports favorably on studies in which 880 persons received killed influenza virus in Adjuvant 65.
Still Under Study
The new vaccine is still under study and is not yet licensed for general use. Adjuvant slowly releases antigens, the active ingredients of vaccines, which stimulate the creation of antibodies in the human system over an extended period, Merck said.
####
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Continual supply of ad monies for pharmaceutical products - a loss that would occur were the NYT's to now undertake the study of the risks of vaccines.
In other words, you would never see the likes of that 1964 article in today's mainstream press.
And please never believe the newspapers, at least not until you invstigate to see if they are telling truth or telling lies. Most of the time, these days, they are the paid arm of the Big Institutions.
To see what I mean, take a moment and read this article that I wrote after spending four years of my life investigating MTBE.
Read what I said about the mainstream press, in particular the Associated Press releases on their article on MTBE the dangerous gas additive that was poisoning the citizens and the water of Calif:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/22/540267/-
(if the above doesn't get you the article, remove the hyphen at the end of the link.)
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)1) Isn't there discussion that peanut oil doesn't contain the protein, so it doesn't cause allergies?
and
2) Many links below disagree with your claim. Do you have anything to further prove your claim?
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Number 105 and number 106.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Archae
(46,327 posts)The anti-vaxx hysterics just can't get it through their empty heads that vaccines work.
Old Codger
(4,205 posts)They are not "natural" in the sense of being how they started out, they are the result of long term selective breeding rather than the latest genetic manipulation... Quite a lot more "natural" than that ..
mythology
(9,527 posts)To me that seems like a weird distinction.
Old Codger
(4,205 posts)Genetic manipulation, they have been improving crops for centuries by taking seeds from the best plants of the species and using them for next crop ad-infinitum nothing "weird" at all .. quite different from the "modern" laboratory method of gene splicing etc... All of our modern crops have been bred that way... That is my distinction...we woudl be unable to feed humanity based on what most of those crops were like originally, and who knows where they may have gone on their own
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Gotta apply the chemical mutagens and radiation somewhere.
It's not just "picking the best plants". We've been actively involved in changing the plants for a very long time.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)To deal with the "modernization" of wheat and other foods.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)That is different than inserting genetic material for alien (alien to say corn) life forms i.e. splicing Bacillus Thuringiensis genes into corn. All this has done is make a natural insecticide increasingly less effective as the worms become resistant.
longship
(40,416 posts)Every single one of them. Including you. We are all one tree of life. So everything alive on earth inherited genes from bacteria.
That is nature. Plus, horizontal gene transfer happens. One cannot stop it. So there have bacterial genes added to life forms by nature.
There is absolutely no qualitative difference between genetic modification, cross breeding, and what nature herself does.
Absolutely no difference. Period! That is what the science says.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)We studied about hybrids in biology class in high school and college.
GMO's are not hybrids.
It is dishonest to equate the two
MineralMan
(146,308 posts)for specific qualities since agriculture began. That's not GMO. That's just standard agricultural practice. Nature is very good at genetically modifying things, all on its own. It's called evolution. When something new and worthwhile shows up, the wise grower takes notice and plants the seeds from it, or breeds the changed critter.
Genetic modification by scientists is quite a new thing, but it's just a play on the same natural strategy.
The archetypal type of most foods no longer exists, and hasn't for a very long time. Most of those that do we wouldn't even recognize as a potential food.
I love the banana photo, as if there was only one natural variety of bananas. There are hundreds. There are also those bred to meet human needs. Those are the ones we eat, mostly. I say mostly, because people are still eating many other varieties. It all depends on where you are in the world, really.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)Archae is just having a little fun, as usual, with specious arguments and the like. It's a trademark, kind of like...
MineralMan
(146,308 posts)He's just wrong.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)And yes, Archae is wrong.
MineralMan
(146,308 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Scientifically, the only criteria for "GMO" is that an organism have its genome altered by human action and intent. Every domesticated plant and animal is genetically modified.
If you want to specify another subcategory - say transgenics - against hybridization, you could do that. But it's still just gene transfer. Hybridization between organisms that could not sexually reproduce together.
djean111
(14,255 posts)a choice in what we put into our bodies - food or medicine. That you would be very happy to just have boxes of food, chosen by you, delivered to everyone - and their bank accounts debited. Same sort of thing for medicine. None of our business, just do what you say!
Doomed to always be disappointed, methinks.
Warpy
(111,257 posts)Most of our food crops have been selectively bred since agriculture was invented near the end of the last Ice Age, farmers saving over the seed from the best produce year after year. It turns out that the real paleolithic diet wasn't all that good. Years of selective breeding improved things greatly.
Well, except for bananas. Those big yellow things are tasteless. You want good bananas, buy the fingering bananas. My local grocery has started to carry them. They range in color from pink through taxicab yellow. My favorites are the red ones.
djean111
(14,255 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)The only difference is one is random.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)I swear, some just HAVE to show their ignorance.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)people need to stop being so freaking naive
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)No one is talking about taking away choices.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)No. Doesn't work. Sorry.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and nobody gets hurt!
randome
(34,845 posts)"I hardly ever go out to eat."
"I rarely eat dessert."
People will often say in public what they want to convince themselves of in private.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)your efforts yielded fruit w/one specific trait but each individual had multiple variations within its DNA.
GMO's are all IDENTICAL. Zero differentiations.
So a blight or pest infestation would devastate every last plant.
Normal, old-fashioned genetic modification would result in a field of plants were some would be able to withstand stress.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Most crops are genetically identical before GMOs. For example, non-GMO sweet corn farmers are growing a specific hybrid of corn, and carefully control pollination to ensure they get the combination they want.
Similar tactics are used on other crops. Apples, as another example, aren't allowed to grow from seed. Instead, a good-tasting apple is spliced onto the roots from a good-rooting apple tree.
Monoculture is about as old as farming. After all, it wasn't genetic engineering that caused the Irish potato famine.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)And they sometimes create something unexpected, something cool, or something dangerous.
Of course nobody knows what they're going to create, because the mutations are random..
Kinda like playing russian roulette with your crops. Create something that bioaccumulates and secretes arsenic in the seeds? Who knew!
GMO crops have variation as well. What, you think they can turn off regular mutation caused by good old sunlight or cosmic radiation?? You think what, they stitch together a long chain of ATCG's that is the entire genome of the GMO organism?
Man, if GMO were as controlled as some think it is, nobody would ever starve again.
No, they take for example, the genes responsible for root production in one variety of rice that is drought tolerant, and replace the corresponding genes in a variety that has a high yield. The result? A variety that is drought tolerant yet produces more per acre planted.
panader0
(25,816 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]
panader0
(25,816 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Labels that fully imply that no one should ever under penalty of WHATEVER remove such mattress labels, and yet the mattress industry thrives, I don't see what the fuss is about.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Since there is no scientific basis for mandatory labeling of foods by their seed development technology. If there were, you would want all such technologies labeled. Of course, that still wouldn't tell a single useful thing about the food.
The drive to label is pushed by the marketing arm of big organic. You should be pissed off that companies utilize baseless fear in this manner.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Some people are trying to foment misinformation about GMOs, however. The fear mongering is simply unethical.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The industry could set up a group to define the rules for a "GMO Free" label, and then growers could put that label on their crops. No government intervention required. In fact, that's how the government's "Organic" label was developed. It used to be an industry group label, and the government more-or-less adopted their rules.
Instead, the pressure is to force the government to require a "contains GMO" label. Which will take much, much longer.
Why? Well, your only option right now is to buy food with an "Organic" label....which is more profitable per acre.
"Big Agriculture" is not only on one side of this fight.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)So what's the problem with a GMO free label next year instead of a decade or more long battle for a "contains GMO" label?
Romulox
(25,960 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)If it has a "GMO Free" label (or an organic label) you know it doesn't. If it lacks such a label, you know it does contain GMOs.
You get the same information. The label can be put on RIGHT NOW instead of after a long regulatory battle. What's the problem?
Romulox
(25,960 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)A "GMO Free" label satisfies your right to know. If such a label existed, you'd know which food had GMOs and which food did not.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Again, a "GMO Free" label tells you that a product does not contain GMOs. A product that does not have this label is going to contain GMOs, since there's market pressure favoring "GMO Free".
I'm giving you all the information you are asking for, with a different label than you propose. As an added bonus, you can get it now instead of after a lengthy regulatory battle.
Yet the people against GMOs aren't just setting up this label themselves for some reason. Odd, huh?
Romulox
(25,960 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)before demanding a label. You've yet to do that. (I eagerly await your conflation of GMOs with pesticides, ignoring that not all GMOs are created with pesticides in mind)
You seem to be demanding people prove a negative ("GMOs can not cause harm), which science would tell you is impossible.
So how 'bout we do a little science: What's the mechanism by which all GMOs cause harm to humans? And why is this mechanism unique to GMO cultivars? Then we can get on to designing an experiment to test this mechanism.
Also, why does a "GMO Free" label not get the job done? You keep desperately avoiding answering that.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)You then wandered off to claims about "science".
A "GMO Free" label tells you what you say you want to know: The food does or does not contain GMOs.
Now, if you really want to do science on this, what's the mechanism by which GMOs, and only GMOs, cause harm? If we're going to use science, we have to design a repeatable experiment. That requires a mechanism of harm, so we can test for it.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)my very simple questions.
Why does a "GMO Free" label not tell you what you want to know?
What is the mechanism by which GMOs, and only GMOs, cause harm?
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)(And no, repeating "Brawk! First Principle" like you know what it means won't get you down, either.)
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)I'm not getting your argument.
Is it because the only reasonable seed crops that could qualify would be heirloom varieties?
http://heirloomseeds.com/
Which would have no hope of feeding current populations of course...
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)that was sprayed with more general "natural" pesticides, as was allowed by the industry that are potentially more toxic than Glyphosate?
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)If it's not carbon-based, I'm not eating it!
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)Its a shame some in our party still pander to these people
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Maybe you haven't been on DU long enough, but if any of us "anti-science nuts" were to use other similar terminology together in the same way, every one of y'all would descend on us like a lynch mob to show us just how wrong we were in confusing such terms (and to mock and excoriate us.)
I do have to ask: Why can't y'all get this? It's so simple, a high-school graduate can see the difference. No science degree required.
This seems to be the big problem on DU and elsewhere online:
There's a big difference between hybrid plants and genetically modified crops, but biotech companies want to keep you confused.
By Emily Main | October 19, 2010
RODALE NEWS, EMMAUS, PAWhen you're at the grocery store and come across a pluot (plum crossed with apricot), a nectarcot (nectarine crossed with apricot), or a seedless watermelon, do you think it's a genetically modified mutant or a farmer's experiment with hybrid plants? If you opted for the former, you'd be wrong, but you wouldn't be alone. "There's been a conscious effort on behalf of biotech companies to confuse people, saying that farmers have been using genetic modification for generations," says Jeffery Smith, founder of the Institute for Responsible Technology, a nonprofit devoted to educating the public about the risks of genetically modified crops. That's not the case, he adds. Crossbreeding and creating hybrid crops, such as pluots and seedless watermelons, have been common practices for centuries, but the process is very different from genetic modification.
(more)
By the way, I'm more likely to trust the scientists at the Rodale Institute than I am at self-professed yet undocumented "scientists" on an Internet message board.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)Frankly, I get tired of the mean spirited arrogance of two specific posters ...
I've had enough ... I don't care how 'smart' they are - there are lots of very smart people in the world who don't condescend with such extreme prejudice, and who are actually nice people too ..
As of this moment - there are two less such people in DU .. It was a long time coming ...
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)Seedless watermelons are genetically modified mutants.
"Regular" watermelons are treated with colchicine, a chemical mutagen. It causes the watermelon to make 4 copies of its genome instead of the normal two copies.
Then the mutated watermelon is bred with a "regular" watermelon, resulting in a watermelon that has 3 copies of its genome. The odd number of copies screws up meiosis, and it can't form seeds.
Also, seedless watermelons were developed starting in 1939 and not commercially available until 1951. Your article claims that "Crossbreeding and creating hybrid crops, such as pluots and seedless watermelons, have been common practices for centuries".
http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wmelon/seedless.html
ETA: Plutots are also a 20th-century invention. Other hybrids of those fruit were known from antiquity, but the specific mix that creates a plutot is a recent invention.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)both are specific terms for specific means of modifying a plant and cannot be conflated (unless you are also trying to lie.)
jeff47
(26,549 posts)There are many ways to produce a hybrid, from breeding to grafting to genetic manipulation. The genetic manipulation may take the form of chemical mutagens (ex. seedless watermelon), radioactive mutagens (ex. red grapefruit), or direct manipulation of the genome.
The last one is the one you object to, which is interesting since it's the one where we actually know what's going on in the plant. Yet the literally random mutations caused by chemicals or radiation are not at all concerning to you.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)to stop using the terms wrong. Because they use them separately, too.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Why don't you?
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I'm not anti-science, I am pro-environment. And the seeds do not stay on the farm they are planted on. They spread from farm to farm.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If I create a tomato-nightshade hybrid using "traditional" techniques, why would that not spread?
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Round up ready crops are a problem here and around the world. Since legislation is near impossible, people want the opportunity to vote with their purchasing power. If GMO is no big deal there should be no issue with labeling it.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The "Organic" label was started by a industry group. Eventually, it evolved into the government label.
Why not start the same thing with a "GMO Free" label? It could be done extremely quickly, and confer the information you are looking for. Yet the organizations "worried" about GMOs are pushing for a lengthy regulatory battle instead....which means consumers wanting to avoid GMOs can only buy the much more profitable-per-acre Organic-labeled food.
"Big food" is not only on one side of this battle.
As for Round-Up, the chemical is the problem, not the crops. We need to ban the chemical. About the only "good news" is it's becoming less and less effective, so it should be less and less popular among farmers.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)It makes more sense to have "contains GMO"
jeff47
(26,549 posts)because it's going to require the government to force people to do what they do not want to do.
And it's going to involve a lot of fights over "problematic" crops. It's hard to claim that a crop produced by bombarding the plant with radiation is not "genetically modified", yet such crops currently qualify as "not GMOs".
A "GMO Free" label can be set up in a year or two, because the people applying that label will want to apply it.
Why not get the same information to consumers now, instead of more than a decade from now, via a label producers should want to apply to their products?
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I just want to know what is in my food. I am very glad that I will be moving to a friends home this winter with a huge yard and field that I can garden in again.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Shandris
(3,447 posts)Oh wait, no, that's part of the plan. Nevermind.
Sounds like a good paying job you've got there. Bet it makes for nice extra Christmas money. Hope it lasts.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)BTW I am not at all in agreement with anything in your post, but, I think the video is somehow appropriate, and hilarious.
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Everytime I see a post on anything about GMOs it's an OP by you. Your snarky, condescending attitude towards others does nothing to change anyone's minds. They just walk away thinking "what a jerk that guy is".
kentauros
(29,414 posts)And DU-member analysis
GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)EPA pulls Dow's Enlist Duo (Duo = RoundUp + Agent Orange) certification 11/30/15
http://www.treehugger.com/sustainable-agriculture/epa-catches-dow-weedkiller-lie-asks-court-reverse-approval.html
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 1, 2015, 04:39 PM - Edit history (1)
They finally explored the actual science of the matter, and that's what it takes to learn that the anti-GMO fear mongering is just ugly and baseless.
You could do the same. It would be good for you, and for everybody.
Fix The Stupid
(948 posts)without getting paid...
Sorry, I can't see it any other way.
How can someone be so invested in time and energy on a single subject?
It's always the same 2 posters - always.
Here's the rub - I totally agree with everything they say...it's just, wow, same shit ad nauseum...
Seriously though, I was a writer in another life - how do people go about getting paid to post on message boards? Someone steer me in the right direction please...
Do these large corporations use companies like Reputation or something like that? They pay that company a fee, then that company pays posters to spread the message?
I needz to get paidz!
Archae
(46,327 posts)I have this horrible view that science can better our lives, our food, and such. /s
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)I don't believe that, at all.