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"I only eat natural food!" No you don't. (Original Post) Archae Nov 2015 OP
K & R (and the same applies for any domesticated animal) N/T w0nderer Nov 2015 #1
Do peanut butter next... FSogol Nov 2015 #2
And due to the fact that some parts of the peanut are utilized in truedelphi Nov 2015 #31
Not likely. n/t FSogol Nov 2015 #33
Sorry if you' re in denial. nt/ truedelphi Nov 2015 #34
You have any evidence of this claim? Archae Nov 2015 #36
The medium upon which elements of the vaccine are cultured truedelphi Nov 2015 #39
Here I thought vaccines were incubated in eggs. Archae Nov 2015 #40
I didn't say they weren't. truedelphi Nov 2015 #44
It's still bullshit, even if it's Canadian. Archae Nov 2015 #48
See my new replies 105 and 106. nt/ truedelphi Dec 2015 #108
All I've found is peanut oil is not used. Have you links showing it is? Thanks uppityperson Nov 2015 #46
There was an entire book written about this - i am in a rush but later truedelphi Dec 2015 #105
Oh and BTW, these days the NYT's would never risk not getting Big Pharma's truedelphi Dec 2015 #106
Two points Dorian Gray Dec 2015 #104
If youw ere addressing me, pls refer to the new replies I made, truedelphi Dec 2015 #107
Nope. HuckleB Nov 2015 #37
Why am I not surprised? Archae Nov 2015 #41
Actually Old Codger Nov 2015 #3
So the issue is how quickly or the location the change change is made? mythology Nov 2015 #24
No laboratory Old Codger Nov 2015 #25
Actually, there's plenty of laboratories involved. jeff47 Nov 2015 #69
Define "natural". Humans have and are evolving too. uppityperson Nov 2015 #4
Unfortunately the digestive system of humans is not evolving quickly enough truedelphi Nov 2015 #30
Unless we get overly-specious, my venison is pretty close. Eleanors38 Nov 2015 #5
All the food we eat; meat and vegetables are the result of careful selection TexasProgresive Nov 2015 #6
Every lifeform on earth has bacterial genes. longship Dec 2015 #83
I have been aware of hybrids for most of my 69 years. upaloopa Nov 2015 #7
Humans have been hybridizing and selecting MineralMan Nov 2015 #9
Archae is not being dishonest! Wilms Nov 2015 #10
I didn't say he was being dishonest. MineralMan Nov 2015 #11
I was responding to another poster's comment. Wilms Nov 2015 #15
Oops. So you were. My mistake. MineralMan Nov 2015 #17
+1 darkangel218 Nov 2015 #76
Hybrids are a subcategory of GMO Scootaloo Dec 2015 #101
Sometimes I get the feeling that you honestly believe that none of us should have djean111 Nov 2015 #8
Naw, probably thinks people would be better off if they stopped kidding themselves Warpy Nov 2015 #28
There is a different between selective breeding and inserting genetic material. n/t djean111 Nov 2015 #29
Both are inserting genetic material. jeff47 Nov 2015 #51
Selective breeding IS inserting genetic material. cleanhippie Nov 2015 #52
Oh fuck, did you skip high school biology? n/t Humanist_Activist Dec 2015 #102
yup Skittles Dec 2015 #81
You have lots of choices. HuckleB Nov 2015 #42
I welcome our Lateral Meristems Overlords. Their occupation of this great land has been fertile. BlueJazz Nov 2015 #12
"For amber waves of Laterial Meristems-laden grain" randome Nov 2015 #14
!!! BlueJazz Nov 2015 #20
Hand over the suppression of internode length Aerows Nov 2015 #27
Coffee is good for you. So is chocolate. And eggs. And bacon. randome Nov 2015 #13
before GMO's, seeds were modified w/massive differences in DNA of each spawn- KittyWampus Nov 2015 #16
Actually, no. jeff47 Nov 2015 #53
No, chemical and radioactive mutagens have also been / are also currently used. X_Digger Dec 2015 #80
I like chiropractors.... panader0 Nov 2015 #18
You're not foolin' anyone. randome Nov 2015 #21
It's not a joke. panader0 Nov 2015 #22
I don't think that is what they mean Marrah_G Nov 2015 #19
All we want is labeling. There's no "science" behind fighting that, just $$$. nt Romulox Nov 2015 #23
After all, if even our bedding material comes with labels - truedelphi Nov 2015 #32
Actually, there is science behind that. HuckleB Nov 2015 #49
Ignorance is antithetical to science. You want to withhold information from consumers for profit. nt Romulox Nov 2015 #50
No one is withholding information. HuckleB Dec 2015 #84
If that were true, you'd be pushing for a "GMO free" label instead of a "contains GMO" label. jeff47 Nov 2015 #54
Nonsense. There is no logical argument contained in your post to refute. It's just nonsense. nt Romulox Nov 2015 #55
"GMO free" gives you the information you claim you want. jeff47 Nov 2015 #58
No, it doesn't. Again, there is no logic in your post to refute. nt Romulox Nov 2015 #59
Why doesn't it? You are concerned about your food containing GMOs. jeff47 Nov 2015 #62
That's not how argument works. I start from first principle (I have a right to know) Romulox Nov 2015 #63
Why would I refute it? I'm satisfying it. jeff47 Nov 2015 #64
You intend to manipulate people's behavior by withholding information. That's not "science". nt Romulox Nov 2015 #65
I'm not withholding information. jeff47 Nov 2015 #67
You are attempting to manipulate the framing. We get it. It's just not a "science" argument. Romulox Nov 2015 #70
Actually, a "science" argument would require you to show harm from GMOs jeff47 Nov 2015 #71
Nonsense. First principle = we have a right to know. You'd need to prove why not. nt Romulox Nov 2015 #73
Already covered that above. I've satisfied your right to know. jeff47 Nov 2015 #74
I should have left it at "Nonsense". There is simply no substance to this line of argument. nt Romulox Nov 2015 #75
Actually, there's no substance to your line of argument, or you'd be able to answer jeff47 Nov 2015 #77
I'd offer you a hand down off your petard, but you seem to be incapable of admitting you're hoisted. X_Digger Dec 2015 #100
How is "GMO free" different from "GMO"? joshcryer Dec 2015 #82
I never understood how people fall for the organic marketing, why would I pay more for a food... Humanist_Activist Dec 2015 #103
I only eat organic food. Jester Messiah Nov 2015 #26
Recommended. HuckleB Nov 2015 #35
Anti-Vaxxers, Anti-GMO and Climate Deniers are nothing more than Anti-Science nutters 951-Riverside Nov 2015 #38
And it's a shame that DU's science community kentauros Nov 2015 #43
Thanks for that ... Trajan Nov 2015 #56
+1 nt laundry_queen Nov 2015 #60
Uh...your "proof" contains a lie. jeff47 Nov 2015 #61
Nonetheless, kentauros Dec 2015 #78
Actually, no. Hybrid is not a specific term in that context. jeff47 Dec 2015 #85
Then you better tell the rest of the botanical sciences establishment kentauros Dec 2015 #96
They understand the reality. HuckleB Dec 2015 #98
Do you think Monsanto round up ready seeds harm the environment? Marrah_G Nov 2015 #68
And that spread only happens with GMO plants because..........? jeff47 Nov 2015 #72
Tomatoes don't general spread by wind, but I know that isn't what you meant Marrah_G Dec 2015 #86
Then why not push for a "GMO Free" label? jeff47 Dec 2015 #87
Because the non-gmo products are not the new addition Marrah_G Dec 2015 #88
"contains GMO" requires decade+ of a lengthy regulatory battle jeff47 Dec 2015 #89
Honestly either one would make me happy Marrah_G Dec 2015 #90
How does knowing the technology used to develop the seed tell you what's in your food? HuckleB Dec 2015 #97
Perhaps your ilk should stop raiding Svalbard then, neh? Shandris Nov 2015 #45
The banana: Atheist's nightmare Quantess Nov 2015 #47
Our bananas, being seedless, would be hard to breed struggle4progress Nov 2015 #57
You know that is not what people are talking about when they say GMO Marrah_G Nov 2015 #66
Now, THAT's a great post! kentauros Dec 2015 #79
Conflating hybrids and GMO is much easier than defending this crap: GreatGazoo Dec 2015 #93
Actually, I know many DUers who have changed their minds because of posts like this. HuckleB Dec 2015 #95
Noboby spends this much time on these subjects Fix The Stupid Dec 2015 #91
I don't get paid. Archae Dec 2015 #92
So a progressive who cares about the ethical utilization and discussion of science is impossible? HuckleB Dec 2015 #94
methinks some doth protesteth too much Warren DeMontague Dec 2015 #99

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
31. And due to the fact that some parts of the peanut are utilized in
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 05:42 PM
Nov 2015

Vaccines forced upon infants, there is now an explosion in the numbers of kids who are allergic to peanuts.

With very serious outcomes for the kids if they are exposed to peanuts.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
39. The medium upon which elements of the vaccine are cultured
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 04:58 PM
Nov 2015

Is what contains the peanut particulates.

It is Vaccine Manufacturing 101.

Archae

(46,327 posts)
40. Here I thought vaccines were incubated in eggs.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:50 PM
Nov 2015

In fact I read the below, and found nothing about peanuts.
You have something, show me.


Vaccine production has several stages. First, the antigen itself is generated. Viruses are grown either on primary cells such as chicken eggs (e.g., for influenza) or on continuous cell lines such as cultured human cells (e.g., for hepatitis A).[56] Bacteria are grown in bioreactors (e.g., Haemophilus influenzae type b). Likewise, a recombinant protein derived from the viruses or bacteria can be generated in yeast, bacteria, or cell cultures. After the antigen is generated, it is isolated from the cells used to generate it. A virus may need to be inactivated, possibly with no further purification required. Recombinant proteins need many operations involving ultrafiltration and column chromatography. Finally, the vaccine is formulated by adding adjuvant, stabilizers, and preservatives as needed. The adjuvant enhances the immune response of the antigen, stabilizers increase the storage life, and preservatives allow the use of multidose vials.[57] Combination vaccines are harder to develop and produce, because of potential incompatibilities and interactions among the antigens and other ingredients involved.[58]

Vaccine production techniques are evolving. Cultured mammalian cells are expected to become increasingly important, compared to conventional options such as chicken eggs, due to greater productivity and low incidence of problems with contamination. Recombination technology that produces genetically detoxified vaccine is expected to grow in popularity for the production of bacterial vaccines that use toxoids. Combination vaccines are expected to reduce the quantities of antigens they contain, and thereby decrease undesirable interactions, by using pathogen-associated molecular patterns.[58]

In 2010, India produced 60 percent of the world's vaccine worth about $900 million(€670 million).[59]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine#Production

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
44. I didn't say they weren't.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:53 PM
Nov 2015

Try not to do your usual globalizing. (A logical fallacy approach to discussion.)

You might look up the 1996 journal "Vaccine" published in Canada that discusses the introduction of peanut oil into the culture.

Archae

(46,327 posts)
48. It's still bullshit, even if it's Canadian.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:01 PM
Nov 2015

Message 37 has the debunking of your myth.

And this site:

http://vaccinechoicecanada.com/

(The one you were probably referring to,) is an anti-vaxx quack site.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
46. All I've found is peanut oil is not used. Have you links showing it is? Thanks
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 09:04 PM
Nov 2015
http://thevaccineadvocate.com/2014/09/17/vaccines-and-allergies-the-one-does-not-cause-the-other/

http://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients#.VlzxLZDTlpU
.Adjuvants

Adjuvants are substances added to vaccines that allow them to work better by enhancing the immune response to the vaccine, decreasing the quantity of vaccine needed to gain protective immunity, or lowering the number of doses required. Currently, only two types of adjuvants are approved for use in the United States: aluminum salts and monophoshoryl lipid A.

Squalene is an adjuvant approved in Europe, but not in the United States. Because it is an oil-in-water emulsion, some people wonder whether they can get vaccines if they have allergies to peanut or corn oils. However, these oils are not in vaccines

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
105. There was an entire book written about this - i am in a rush but later
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 06:15 PM
Dec 2015

Iw ill try and retrieve the nameof ssaid book.

Now peanuts may not have been deliberately used inside a cultural media, but because of the absolute waste and filth of these terrible cheapskate laboratories, they end up in the media where the vaccine is cultured. (And yes, eggs are the main body of what a cultured vaccine should be exposed to, but the "should's" are very differnt from what actually happens.)

The SF Chronicle had an editor back in 1999 or 2000 who was so upset that the upper class, more educated people in the SF Bay area were not vaccinating their kids, that he assigned a crack team of reporters to visit the labs so that they could write a report and then the article could be used to demonstrate how extremely careful the process happens to be.

But instead, the reporters found the laboratories to be swimming in filth, with the various culturing media exposed to live virus material, live bacterial material and dust, dirt, germs and filth that they wrote an extremely critical article. (That article is somewhere in a box of articles inside my garage - fifty five banker boxes full of all the "dirt" I have collected on Big Pharma, Big Energy and Big Pesticide over the forty years I have examined these "institutions.&quot

It is to the SF Chronicle's credit that the article was actually written, and if my memory serves me, it was actually a series rather than one article. One thing mentioned in the article was how the labs are always told upfront whenever any risk of being inspected by FDA or other people could occur. But of course, the actual inspectors rarely visit any labs as they are few in number!

Here is link to NYT article abt peanut inclusion in vaccine, 1964show the use of peanuts or peanut oil:

http://www.nytimes.com/1964/09/19/peanut-oil-used-in-a-new-vaccine.html?_r=0

PEANUT OIL USED IN A NEW VACCINE

STACY V. JONES; Special to The New York Times SEPT. 19, 1964




WASHINGTON, Sept. 18—A pharmaceutical manufacturer has developed a vaccine that it predicts will considerably lengthen immunity from influ­enza and other virus infections, thereby requiring fewer “shots.”
From Our Advertisers

The key ingredient, called Adjuvant 65, which contains peanut oil, was patented this week for Merck & Co., Inc., by Dr. Allen F. Woodhour and Dr. Thomas B. Stim. They, discov­ered it in the company's re­search laboratory at West Point, Pa.

Present procedure, according to Merck, is to give annual in­jections of killed influenza vi­rus, which are expected to af­ford protection for a year. The hope is that the new vaccine will extend the immunity to at least two years and be more effective during that period.
The current issue of the New England Journal of Medicine re­ports favorably on studies in which 880 persons received killed influenza virus in Adju­vant 65.

Still Under Study

The new vaccine is still under study and is not yet licensed for general use. Adjuvant slowly releases an­tigens, the active ingredients of vaccines, which stimulate the creation of antibodies in the human system over an extended period, Merck said.

####

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
106. Oh and BTW, these days the NYT's would never risk not getting Big Pharma's
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 06:22 PM
Dec 2015

Continual supply of ad monies for pharmaceutical products - a loss that would occur were the NYT's to now undertake the study of the risks of vaccines.

In other words, you would never see the likes of that 1964 article in today's mainstream press.

And please never believe the newspapers, at least not until you invstigate to see if they are telling truth or telling lies. Most of the time, these days, they are the paid arm of the Big Institutions.

To see what I mean, take a moment and read this article that I wrote after spending four years of my life investigating MTBE.

Read what I said about the mainstream press, in particular the Associated Press releases on their article on MTBE the dangerous gas additive that was poisoning the citizens and the water of Calif:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/22/540267/-

(if the above doesn't get you the article, remove the hyphen at the end of the link.)



Dorian Gray

(13,493 posts)
104. Two points
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 07:53 AM
Dec 2015

1) Isn't there discussion that peanut oil doesn't contain the protein, so it doesn't cause allergies?

and

2) Many links below disagree with your claim. Do you have anything to further prove your claim?

Archae

(46,327 posts)
41. Why am I not surprised?
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 05:55 PM
Nov 2015

The anti-vaxx hysterics just can't get it through their empty heads that vaccines work.

 

Old Codger

(4,205 posts)
3. Actually
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:00 PM
Nov 2015

They are not "natural" in the sense of being how they started out, they are the result of long term selective breeding rather than the latest genetic manipulation... Quite a lot more "natural" than that ..

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
24. So the issue is how quickly or the location the change change is made?
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 03:54 PM
Nov 2015

To me that seems like a weird distinction.

 

Old Codger

(4,205 posts)
25. No laboratory
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 04:17 PM
Nov 2015

Genetic manipulation, they have been improving crops for centuries by taking seeds from the best plants of the species and using them for next crop ad-infinitum nothing "weird" at all .. quite different from the "modern" laboratory method of gene splicing etc... All of our modern crops have been bred that way... That is my distinction...we woudl be unable to feed humanity based on what most of those crops were like originally, and who knows where they may have gone on their own

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
69. Actually, there's plenty of laboratories involved.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:28 PM
Nov 2015

Gotta apply the chemical mutagens and radiation somewhere.

It's not just "picking the best plants". We've been actively involved in changing the plants for a very long time.

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
30. Unfortunately the digestive system of humans is not evolving quickly enough
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 05:38 PM
Nov 2015

To deal with the "modernization" of wheat and other foods.

TexasProgresive

(12,157 posts)
6. All the food we eat; meat and vegetables are the result of careful selection
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:05 PM
Nov 2015

That is different than inserting genetic material for alien (alien to say corn) life forms i.e. splicing Bacillus Thuringiensis genes into corn. All this has done is make a natural insecticide increasingly less effective as the worms become resistant.

longship

(40,416 posts)
83. Every lifeform on earth has bacterial genes.
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:58 AM
Dec 2015

Every single one of them. Including you. We are all one tree of life. So everything alive on earth inherited genes from bacteria.

That is nature. Plus, horizontal gene transfer happens. One cannot stop it. So there have bacterial genes added to life forms by nature.

There is absolutely no qualitative difference between genetic modification, cross breeding, and what nature herself does.

Absolutely no difference. Period! That is what the science says.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
7. I have been aware of hybrids for most of my 69 years.
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:06 PM
Nov 2015

We studied about hybrids in biology class in high school and college.

GMO's are not hybrids.

It is dishonest to equate the two

MineralMan

(146,308 posts)
9. Humans have been hybridizing and selecting
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:14 PM
Nov 2015

for specific qualities since agriculture began. That's not GMO. That's just standard agricultural practice. Nature is very good at genetically modifying things, all on its own. It's called evolution. When something new and worthwhile shows up, the wise grower takes notice and plants the seeds from it, or breeds the changed critter.

Genetic modification by scientists is quite a new thing, but it's just a play on the same natural strategy.

The archetypal type of most foods no longer exists, and hasn't for a very long time. Most of those that do we wouldn't even recognize as a potential food.

I love the banana photo, as if there was only one natural variety of bananas. There are hundreds. There are also those bred to meet human needs. Those are the ones we eat, mostly. I say mostly, because people are still eating many other varieties. It all depends on where you are in the world, really.


 

Wilms

(26,795 posts)
10. Archae is not being dishonest!
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:16 PM
Nov 2015

Archae is just having a little fun, as usual, with specious arguments and the like. It's a trademark, kind of like...

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
101. Hybrids are a subcategory of GMO
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 02:45 AM
Dec 2015

Scientifically, the only criteria for "GMO" is that an organism have its genome altered by human action and intent. Every domesticated plant and animal is genetically modified.

If you want to specify another subcategory - say transgenics - against hybridization, you could do that. But it's still just gene transfer. Hybridization between organisms that could not sexually reproduce together.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
8. Sometimes I get the feeling that you honestly believe that none of us should have
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:11 PM
Nov 2015

a choice in what we put into our bodies - food or medicine. That you would be very happy to just have boxes of food, chosen by you, delivered to everyone - and their bank accounts debited. Same sort of thing for medicine. None of our business, just do what you say!

Doomed to always be disappointed, methinks.

Warpy

(111,257 posts)
28. Naw, probably thinks people would be better off if they stopped kidding themselves
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 04:47 PM
Nov 2015

Most of our food crops have been selectively bred since agriculture was invented near the end of the last Ice Age, farmers saving over the seed from the best produce year after year. It turns out that the real paleolithic diet wasn't all that good. Years of selective breeding improved things greatly.

Well, except for bananas. Those big yellow things are tasteless. You want good bananas, buy the fingering bananas. My local grocery has started to carry them. They range in color from pink through taxicab yellow. My favorites are the red ones.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
12. I welcome our Lateral Meristems Overlords. Their occupation of this great land has been fertile.
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:24 PM
Nov 2015
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
14. "For amber waves of Laterial Meristems-laden grain"
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:26 PM
Nov 2015

No. Doesn't work. Sorry.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
13. Coffee is good for you. So is chocolate. And eggs. And bacon.
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:25 PM
Nov 2015

"I hardly ever go out to eat."
"I rarely eat dessert."

People will often say in public what they want to convince themselves of in private.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
16. before GMO's, seeds were modified w/massive differences in DNA of each spawn-
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 02:31 PM
Nov 2015

your efforts yielded fruit w/one specific trait but each individual had multiple variations within its DNA.

GMO's are all IDENTICAL. Zero differentiations.

So a blight or pest infestation would devastate every last plant.

Normal, old-fashioned genetic modification would result in a field of plants were some would be able to withstand stress.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
53. Actually, no.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:31 PM
Nov 2015

Most crops are genetically identical before GMOs. For example, non-GMO sweet corn farmers are growing a specific hybrid of corn, and carefully control pollination to ensure they get the combination they want.

Similar tactics are used on other crops. Apples, as another example, aren't allowed to grow from seed. Instead, a good-tasting apple is spliced onto the roots from a good-rooting apple tree.

Monoculture is about as old as farming. After all, it wasn't genetic engineering that caused the Irish potato famine.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
80. No, chemical and radioactive mutagens have also been / are also currently used.
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:51 AM
Dec 2015

And they sometimes create something unexpected, something cool, or something dangerous.

Of course nobody knows what they're going to create, because the mutations are random..

Kinda like playing russian roulette with your crops. Create something that bioaccumulates and secretes arsenic in the seeds? Who knew!

GMO crops have variation as well. What, you think they can turn off regular mutation caused by good old sunlight or cosmic radiation?? You think what, they stitch together a long chain of ATCG's that is the entire genome of the GMO organism?

Man, if GMO were as controlled as some think it is, nobody would ever starve again.

No, they take for example, the genes responsible for root production in one variety of rice that is drought tolerant, and replace the corresponding genes in a variety that has a high yield. The result? A variety that is drought tolerant yet produces more per acre planted.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
21. You're not foolin' anyone.
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 03:40 PM
Nov 2015

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

truedelphi

(32,324 posts)
32. After all, if even our bedding material comes with labels -
Tue Nov 24, 2015, 05:47 PM
Nov 2015

Labels that fully imply that no one should ever under penalty of WHATEVER remove such mattress labels, and yet the mattress industry thrives, I don't see what the fuss is about.

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
49. Actually, there is science behind that.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:07 PM
Nov 2015

Since there is no scientific basis for mandatory labeling of foods by their seed development technology. If there were, you would want all such technologies labeled. Of course, that still wouldn't tell a single useful thing about the food.

The drive to label is pushed by the marketing arm of big organic. You should be pissed off that companies utilize baseless fear in this manner.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
50. Ignorance is antithetical to science. You want to withhold information from consumers for profit. nt
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:10 PM
Nov 2015

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
84. No one is withholding information.
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 10:04 AM
Dec 2015

Some people are trying to foment misinformation about GMOs, however. The fear mongering is simply unethical.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
54. If that were true, you'd be pushing for a "GMO free" label instead of a "contains GMO" label.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:49 PM
Nov 2015

The industry could set up a group to define the rules for a "GMO Free" label, and then growers could put that label on their crops. No government intervention required. In fact, that's how the government's "Organic" label was developed. It used to be an industry group label, and the government more-or-less adopted their rules.

Instead, the pressure is to force the government to require a "contains GMO" label. Which will take much, much longer.

Why? Well, your only option right now is to buy food with an "Organic" label....which is more profitable per acre.

"Big Agriculture" is not only on one side of this fight.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
58. "GMO free" gives you the information you claim you want.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:52 PM
Nov 2015

So what's the problem with a GMO free label next year instead of a decade or more long battle for a "contains GMO" label?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
62. Why doesn't it? You are concerned about your food containing GMOs.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:12 PM
Nov 2015

If it has a "GMO Free" label (or an organic label) you know it doesn't. If it lacks such a label, you know it does contain GMOs.

You get the same information. The label can be put on RIGHT NOW instead of after a long regulatory battle. What's the problem?

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
63. That's not how argument works. I start from first principle (I have a right to know)
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:14 PM
Nov 2015
you have the responsibility to refute that.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
64. Why would I refute it? I'm satisfying it.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:18 PM
Nov 2015

A "GMO Free" label satisfies your right to know. If such a label existed, you'd know which food had GMOs and which food did not.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
67. I'm not withholding information.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:25 PM
Nov 2015

Again, a "GMO Free" label tells you that a product does not contain GMOs. A product that does not have this label is going to contain GMOs, since there's market pressure favoring "GMO Free".

I'm giving you all the information you are asking for, with a different label than you propose. As an added bonus, you can get it now instead of after a lengthy regulatory battle.

Yet the people against GMOs aren't just setting up this label themselves for some reason. Odd, huh?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
71. Actually, a "science" argument would require you to show harm from GMOs
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:32 PM
Nov 2015

before demanding a label. You've yet to do that. (I eagerly await your conflation of GMOs with pesticides, ignoring that not all GMOs are created with pesticides in mind)

You seem to be demanding people prove a negative ("GMOs can not cause harm), which science would tell you is impossible.

So how 'bout we do a little science: What's the mechanism by which all GMOs cause harm to humans? And why is this mechanism unique to GMO cultivars? Then we can get on to designing an experiment to test this mechanism.

Also, why does a "GMO Free" label not get the job done? You keep desperately avoiding answering that.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
74. Already covered that above. I've satisfied your right to know.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:37 PM
Nov 2015

You then wandered off to claims about "science".

A "GMO Free" label tells you what you say you want to know: The food does or does not contain GMOs.

Now, if you really want to do science on this, what's the mechanism by which GMOs, and only GMOs, cause harm? If we're going to use science, we have to design a repeatable experiment. That requires a mechanism of harm, so we can test for it.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
77. Actually, there's no substance to your line of argument, or you'd be able to answer
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:46 PM
Nov 2015

my very simple questions.

Why does a "GMO Free" label not tell you what you want to know?
What is the mechanism by which GMOs, and only GMOs, cause harm?

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
100. I'd offer you a hand down off your petard, but you seem to be incapable of admitting you're hoisted.
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 12:55 AM
Dec 2015

(And no, repeating "Brawk! First Principle" like you know what it means won't get you down, either.)

joshcryer

(62,270 posts)
82. How is "GMO free" different from "GMO"?
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 01:39 AM
Dec 2015

I'm not getting your argument.

Is it because the only reasonable seed crops that could qualify would be heirloom varieties?

http://heirloomseeds.com/

Which would have no hope of feeding current populations of course...

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
103. I never understood how people fall for the organic marketing, why would I pay more for a food...
Wed Dec 2, 2015, 06:57 AM
Dec 2015

that was sprayed with more general "natural" pesticides, as was allowed by the industry that are potentially more toxic than Glyphosate?

 

951-Riverside

(7,234 posts)
38. Anti-Vaxxers, Anti-GMO and Climate Deniers are nothing more than Anti-Science nutters
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 02:28 PM
Nov 2015

Its a shame some in our party still pander to these people

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
43. And it's a shame that DU's science community
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 07:35 PM
Nov 2015
continues to conflate two specific scientific terms into one. "GMO" and "Hybridization" are two distinct and separate terms about specific botanical processes. There's not one iota of anti-science nuttery in pointing out that inconvenient fact.

Maybe you haven't been on DU long enough, but if any of us "anti-science nuts" were to use other similar terminology together in the same way, every one of y'all would descend on us like a lynch mob to show us just how wrong we were in confusing such terms (and to mock and excoriate us.)

I do have to ask: Why can't y'all get this? It's so simple, a high-school graduate can see the difference. No science degree required.

This seems to be the big problem on DU and elsewhere online:

[font size="3"]Don't Be Fooled by Genewashing[/font]
There's a big difference between hybrid plants and genetically modified crops, but biotech companies want to keep you confused.
By Emily Main | October 19, 2010

RODALE NEWS, EMMAUS, PA—When you're at the grocery store and come across a pluot (plum crossed with apricot), a nectarcot (nectarine crossed with apricot), or a seedless watermelon, do you think it's a genetically modified mutant or a farmer's experiment with hybrid plants? If you opted for the former, you'd be wrong, but you wouldn't be alone. "There's been a conscious effort on behalf of biotech companies to confuse people, saying that farmers have been using genetic modification for generations," says Jeffery Smith, founder of the Institute for Responsible Technology, a nonprofit devoted to educating the public about the risks of genetically modified crops. That's not the case, he adds. Crossbreeding and creating hybrid crops, such as pluots and seedless watermelons, have been common practices for centuries, but the process is very different from genetic modification.
(more)

By the way, I'm more likely to trust the scientists at the Rodale Institute than I am at self-professed yet undocumented "scientists" on an Internet message board.
 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
56. Thanks for that ...
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 10:51 PM
Nov 2015

Frankly, I get tired of the mean spirited arrogance of two specific posters ...

I've had enough ... I don't care how 'smart' they are - there are lots of very smart people in the world who don't condescend with such extreme prejudice, and who are actually nice people too ..

As of this moment - there are two less such people in DU .. It was a long time coming ...

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
61. Uh...your "proof" contains a lie.
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:08 PM
Nov 2015
or a seedless watermelon, do you think it's a genetically modified mutant

Seedless watermelons are genetically modified mutants.

"Regular" watermelons are treated with colchicine, a chemical mutagen. It causes the watermelon to make 4 copies of its genome instead of the normal two copies.

Then the mutated watermelon is bred with a "regular" watermelon, resulting in a watermelon that has 3 copies of its genome. The odd number of copies screws up meiosis, and it can't form seeds.

Also, seedless watermelons were developed starting in 1939 and not commercially available until 1951. Your article claims that "Crossbreeding and creating hybrid crops, such as pluots and seedless watermelons, have been common practices for centuries".

http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wmelon/seedless.html

ETA: Plutots are also a 20th-century invention. Other hybrids of those fruit were known from antiquity, but the specific mix that creates a plutot is a recent invention.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
78. Nonetheless,
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:36 AM
Dec 2015

both are specific terms for specific means of modifying a plant and cannot be conflated (unless you are also trying to lie.)

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
85. Actually, no. Hybrid is not a specific term in that context.
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 11:25 AM
Dec 2015

There are many ways to produce a hybrid, from breeding to grafting to genetic manipulation. The genetic manipulation may take the form of chemical mutagens (ex. seedless watermelon), radioactive mutagens (ex. red grapefruit), or direct manipulation of the genome.

The last one is the one you object to, which is interesting since it's the one where we actually know what's going on in the plant. Yet the literally random mutations caused by chemicals or radiation are not at all concerning to you.

kentauros

(29,414 posts)
96. Then you better tell the rest of the botanical sciences establishment
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 07:14 PM
Dec 2015

to stop using the terms wrong. Because they use them separately, too.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
68. Do you think Monsanto round up ready seeds harm the environment?
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:27 PM
Nov 2015

I'm not anti-science, I am pro-environment. And the seeds do not stay on the farm they are planted on. They spread from farm to farm.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
72. And that spread only happens with GMO plants because..........?
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:34 PM
Nov 2015

If I create a tomato-nightshade hybrid using "traditional" techniques, why would that not spread?

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
86. Tomatoes don't general spread by wind, but I know that isn't what you meant
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:08 PM
Dec 2015

Round up ready crops are a problem here and around the world. Since legislation is near impossible, people want the opportunity to vote with their purchasing power. If GMO is no big deal there should be no issue with labeling it.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
87. Then why not push for a "GMO Free" label?
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:13 PM
Dec 2015

The "Organic" label was started by a industry group. Eventually, it evolved into the government label.

Why not start the same thing with a "GMO Free" label? It could be done extremely quickly, and confer the information you are looking for. Yet the organizations "worried" about GMOs are pushing for a lengthy regulatory battle instead....which means consumers wanting to avoid GMOs can only buy the much more profitable-per-acre Organic-labeled food.

"Big food" is not only on one side of this battle.

As for Round-Up, the chemical is the problem, not the crops. We need to ban the chemical. About the only "good news" is it's becoming less and less effective, so it should be less and less popular among farmers.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
89. "contains GMO" requires decade+ of a lengthy regulatory battle
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:42 PM
Dec 2015

because it's going to require the government to force people to do what they do not want to do.

And it's going to involve a lot of fights over "problematic" crops. It's hard to claim that a crop produced by bombarding the plant with radiation is not "genetically modified", yet such crops currently qualify as "not GMOs".

A "GMO Free" label can be set up in a year or two, because the people applying that label will want to apply it.

Why not get the same information to consumers now, instead of more than a decade from now, via a label producers should want to apply to their products?

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
90. Honestly either one would make me happy
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:48 PM
Dec 2015

I just want to know what is in my food. I am very glad that I will be moving to a friends home this winter with a huge yard and field that I can garden in again.

 

Shandris

(3,447 posts)
45. Perhaps your ilk should stop raiding Svalbard then, neh?
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 08:57 PM
Nov 2015

Oh wait, no, that's part of the plan. Nevermind.

Sounds like a good paying job you've got there. Bet it makes for nice extra Christmas money. Hope it lasts.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
47. The banana: Atheist's nightmare
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 09:04 PM
Nov 2015


BTW I am not at all in agreement with anything in your post, but, I think the video is somehow appropriate, and hilarious.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
66. You know that is not what people are talking about when they say GMO
Mon Nov 30, 2015, 11:24 PM
Nov 2015

Everytime I see a post on anything about GMOs it's an OP by you. Your snarky, condescending attitude towards others does nothing to change anyone's minds. They just walk away thinking "what a jerk that guy is".

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
95. Actually, I know many DUers who have changed their minds because of posts like this.
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 04:05 PM
Dec 2015

Last edited Tue Dec 1, 2015, 04:39 PM - Edit history (1)

They finally explored the actual science of the matter, and that's what it takes to learn that the anti-GMO fear mongering is just ugly and baseless.

You could do the same. It would be good for you, and for everybody.

Fix The Stupid

(948 posts)
91. Noboby spends this much time on these subjects
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 12:49 PM
Dec 2015

without getting paid...

Sorry, I can't see it any other way.

How can someone be so invested in time and energy on a single subject?

It's always the same 2 posters - always.

Here's the rub - I totally agree with everything they say...it's just, wow, same shit ad nauseum...

Seriously though, I was a writer in another life - how do people go about getting paid to post on message boards? Someone steer me in the right direction please...

Do these large corporations use companies like Reputation or something like that? They pay that company a fee, then that company pays posters to spread the message?

I needz to get paidz!

Archae

(46,327 posts)
92. I don't get paid.
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:27 PM
Dec 2015

I have this horrible view that science can better our lives, our food, and such. /s

HuckleB

(35,773 posts)
94. So a progressive who cares about the ethical utilization and discussion of science is impossible?
Tue Dec 1, 2015, 04:04 PM
Dec 2015

I don't believe that, at all.

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