U.S. Plane Shot Victims Fleeing Doctors Without Borders Hospital/NBC

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

War criminals should be prosecuted.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-plane-shot-victims-fleeing-doctors-without-borders-hospital-n457871

KABUL, Afghanistan — A U.S. warplane shot people trying to flee a burning hospital destroyed in airstrikes last month, according to the charity that ran the facility.

"Thirty of our patients and medical staff died [in the bombing]," Doctors Without Borders General Director Christopher Stokes said during a speech in Kabul unveiling a report on the incident. "Some of them lost their limbs and were decapitated in the explosions. Others were shot by the circling gunship while fleeing the burning building."

The hospital in Kunduz was bombed on Oct. 3 as Afghan government forces fought to regain control of the city from Taliban insurgents.

After the U.S. gave shifting explanations for the incident — which Doctors Without Borders has called a war crime — President Barack Obama apologized to the charity. The U.S. and Afghan governments have launched three separate investigations but the charity, which is also known as Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF), is calling for an international inquiry.

[morningfog]

1. War criminals.

[valerief]

26. All war is crime, but it's a way to make rich people richer, which is the most

important thing in the world.

[atreides1]

2. I'll bet

The gunners were laughing their asses off as they fired on people running to get away from the fire and explosions!!!

I hope that entire crew has the worst most horrifying nightmares for the rest of their lives and that they live a long, long time!!!

[Township75]

16. How do you know they weren't following orders

Were they on the ground shooting these people where they could tell they weren't soilders or were they told they were attacking a terrorist hide out?

If the letter then the ones all they way at he top need to go to jail

[Unknown Beatle]

19. Even if terrorist are using the hospital as a hide-out,

that doesn't justify bombing the building. What kind of intel do they have to not know it was a hospital? Then they say it was a mistake. Fuck no it wasn't a mistake, otherwise they wouldn't have shot people fleeing the burning building.

In other words, they knew it was a hospital and they didn't care.

[Township75]

22. If they were told it was a terrorist hide out and nothing about it being a hospital

Then you think it was the gunners fault and not the people who told
Them it was a terrorist hide out??

[Unknown Beatle]

23. Read post number six.

The hospital gave GPS coordinates several times stating it was a hospital.

Even if the gunners knew it was a hospital, they have to follow orders or get court-martialed.

[giftedgirl77]

27. No, that is just not true.

If the orders are unlawful you don't have to follow them. If they knew it was a hospital then firing upon it is a violation of the Geneva Convention. I was a paralegal in the US Army during these conflicts I taught the Laws of War & Rules of Engagement regularly.

[Unknown Beatle]

35. Do you mean that if given a direct order and

not following up on it will not get you in hot water because it's against the Geneva Convention? Even in today's climate?

Maybe what you wrote would have worked in the past, but not now. Since when is the Geneva Convention treaties even followed by the US? We torture, we jail whistle blowers (Chelsea Manning), we use banned munitions (white phosphorus, cluster bombs), those are all against the Geneva Convention.

[giftedgirl77]

36. No, I'm talking about now.

Nothing has changed, I haven't even been out 2 yrs. What Manning did was illegal, giving any shit to wikileaks is a fuckin crime. I know of what I speak of, I have deployed repeatedly to both Iraq & Afghanistan it's my job to know the laws. We explecitly tell soldiers that it is illegal to follow unjust orders & following said orders is a crime. We also teach the difference between combatants & noncombatants. There are many many places that are no go zones for us to include hospitals & mosques.

You really shouldn't speak of things you don't know about.

[Unknown Beatle]

37. Oh, c'mon now.

The US is not a beacon on a hill. War crimes are committed regularly and nothing happens. What happens to all the high ranking officials that order atrocities? What happened to the soldiers that used white phosphorous on civilians in Fallujah? What happened to all the torturers in Abu Ghraib? What happened to the torturers in Guantanamo?

Even Cheney has said he would (torture) all over again and torture is against the Geneva Convention.

[giftedgirl77]

42. Lolololololol, I was just talking about Abu Ghrib the other

day with my boyfriend who is from Pakistan. I actually worked on that investigation, many ppl were jailed for it. Just bc we don't broadcast everything to the public doesn't mean nothing happened. All of you sit on the sidelines bitching & complaining without a clue about what goes on behind closed doors. I'm actually 100% disabled now due to exposure down range so get off your high horse before you fall off.

We are well aware of the bullshit with Gitmo, I worked on the other side of that bad boy as well. That's dirty shit, but I'm explaining to you what the ROE & LOW is because YOU incorrectly stated that Soldiers get court martialed for not following unlawful orders which is utter bullshit.

[Unknown Beatle]

44. Oh bullshit!

Atrocities happen all the time in a combat zone and it's whitewashed. Remember Pat Tillman? The only reason we heard about it was because he was a famous football player, otherwise total silence if not whitewashing the whole episode.

Do you remember Ted Westhusing?

Before putting a bullet through his head, Westhusing had been deeply disturbed by abuses carried out by American contractors and unnamed advisors in Iraq, including allegations that they had witnessed or even participated in the murder of Iraqis. His suicide note included claims that his two commanders, Lt. Gen. Petraeus and Maj. Gen. Josephy Fil, tolerated a mission based on “corruption, human rights abuses and liars. I am sullied—no more. I didn’t volunteer to support corrupt, money grubbing contractors, nor work for commanders only interested in themselves.” The Nation

How about the Iraq Status of Forces Agreement signed by bush? It granted immunity for crimes committed in Iraq by soldiers.

C'mon now. You should know better than to claim war crimes are prosecuted.

This is what I wrote: "Even if the gunners knew it was a hospital, they have to follow orders or get court-martialed."

You're right, soldiers don't get court-martialed for not following orders, absolutely nothing happens to them whether following orders or not fallowing orders.

[giftedgirl77]

49. What utter bullshit, I prosecuted Soldiers constantly in Iraq

the SOFA stated that we had to obtain jurisdiction from the Iraqi gov or turn it over to them. We have the same guidelines with every state & country where we have Soldiers .

You clearly don't know what in the hell you are talking about.

[Unknown Beatle]

52. When I started this discourse,

I was attempting to keep it civil but I failed. It progressed to "bullshit" and "You clearly don't know what in the hell you are talking about". You clearly gravitated towards animosity. But it's my fault when I too declared "bullshit".

You see it one way and I see it another. My friends sons have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan and some of the information I gleaned was from them. So instead of escalating the situation I bid you adieu.

[Township75]

47. I did see post 6

but it states Washington and Kabul were told....so who in DC was told...the military? And if the military did get the message, did they pass it down to those that carried out the operation...or were those performing the operation told it was a terrorist hide out....it makes a big difference in culpability. Either those carrying out the order are war criminals, or way up the chain, maybe even in the white house, are the war criminals!

[Jerry442]

51. The hospital was a large, easily spotted building...

...on the outskirts of a small town. What did the flight crew think they were attacking? A Mega Lo Mart?

[backscatter712]

50. Like in Full Metal Jacket...

[DustyJoe]

58. military

The gunners, probably enlisted men, ordered to fire you could probably say would not know the gps coordinates, would not know what the Drs without borders memos to the State Dept and military planners said stating their gps coordinates. These enlisted men in an aircraft circling thousands of feet in the air in the dark at 2am in the morning would not be able to read building signs or see any banners on the roof. If ordered to fire at any targets moving in the target area would only see blobs of light from the infrared sights and would not know the sex, race, profession of the blobs of light. They would follow the orders to fire at a target designated by higher ups. Your wish for them all to live horrifying lives for actions in the heat of battle is one reason the military will see a decline in the quality of enlistees knowing a mistake by an upper command structure buries them in blame and critisized for doing what was ordered. Laughing their asses off ? What a description.

[Fred Sanders]

3. Who were the pilots? Why are they not being named? It was a massive war crime and folks

in America who care about Justice should be as appalled as the rest of the world, but the controlled mass media will not permit it or even let folks know how outraged the rest of the world is.

It used to be "creeping" fascism, but now it has picked up a pace.... What else to call that ball-licking interview of fascist Koch by the controlled media?

Why is this war crime not daily news in America, which has a lot to explain and can not just pay off the victims because Doctors Without Borders does not want money, they want justice.

Patients and doctors and nurses and visitors.....gunned down in the streets fleeing straffing run after straffing run by an American gunship.....can you imagine?.......... the horror and the outrage at this deliberate EVIL?

[underpants]

4. I agree

Many current and former government employees are openly discussing daily but not the military?

[Fred Sanders]

7. Does it matter anymore who the Commander in Chief is, to The Pentagon, who are the world's

true greatest power, dominant over the world's puny other nation militaries in a way the world has never seen before.

Th military and the corporate American media were a match made in hell....and has been proven ever day for decades...but who will tell folks that....the corporate media?

And 20 billion for a runaway blimp designed to "track incoming cruises missiles" into Washington?
As if that questionable scenario is what keeps folks up at night and not 20 billion of taxpayer money down the 10K "military grade" toilet.

The only thing military grade about the military is their attitude of invincibility and unaccountabity.

Maybe time to take certain alledged crimes of Americans out of the hands of the "military justice" system...as Orwellian a phrase as you will ever see.

[Plucketeer]

9. MIG

Military-Industrial Government.

[polly7]

5. Well said, Fred. nt.

[Unknown Beatle]

20. What do you expect when the CIA

is telling the media what to say and what not to say.

[rhett o rick]

53. And when the NSA/CIA is telling the President what to do and not do. Who is responsible

here?

[polly7]

6. And ........ they were told, yet it continued.

"OCTOBER 3, 2015 — Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) condemns in the strongest possible terms the horrific bombing of its hospital in Kunduz, which was full of staff and patients. MSF wishes to clarify that all parties to the conflict, including in Kabul and Washington, were clearly informed of the precise location (GPS Coordinates) of the MSF facilities in Kunduz, including the hospital, guesthouse, office and an outreach stabilization unit in Chardara northwest of Kunduz.

As it does in all conflict contexts, MSF communicated the precise locations of its facilities to all parties on multiple occasions over the past months, including most recently on September 29.

The bombing in Kunduz continued for more than 30 minutes after American and Afghan military officials in Kabul and Washington were first informed by MSF that its hospital was struck."

BBM

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/article/afghanistan-msf-staff-killed-hospital-partially-destroyed-kunduz

[niyad]

8. would that this horror would receive half the attention of benghazi.

[Plucketeer]

12. It could ascend to that level

if the GOP could tie it to a Dem hopeful.

[niyad]

15. that is true.

[JEB]

10. If we do not prosecute war criminals,

we all share in the guilt.

[Fuddnik]

18. We have to look forward.

Thar's what somebody in DC told us anyway.

[Quackers]

11. This needs to be investigated YESTERDAY!

The UN should be involved. There is no excuse why this should've happened.

[flamingdem]

13. Looks like fog of war

There's no logical reason for the US to attack an MSF hospital. The Afghans might have lied, good luck getting them to trial over it. The gunners thought they were Taliban according to their info. Big fuck up but not a war crime in the sense of an intentional attack against civilians.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. See post #29. There was no "fog of war" about it.

[flamingdem]

41. What was the motive to kill those people? nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

48. We can only guess.

[blackspade]

14. This was a pointless attack.

Unless you are trying to send a message, or ratchet up the conflict.
Nothing pisses people off more than their defenseless loved ones being blown up in a hospital.
Can you imagine how pissed we would be? We bombed two countries flat for the last major attack.

[riderinthestorm]

17. War crime

[Unknown Beatle]

21. Is it any wonder why the United States

is viewed as a threat to peace by citizens the world over?

We have met the enemy and he is us. - Walt Kelly (Pogo)

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. Brrrraaap. Brrrrap. Bap bap bap. Bap. Bap bap.

"Open up the flexies, watch it pee."

Horrible.

[lpbk2713]

25. Has anyone ever considered donating IFF Transponders to places like this?

Seems like it would be worth while.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

28. MSF had given GPS coordinates to the Afghan and US forces which located the hospital precisely.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/06/world/asia/doctors-without-borders-seeks-explanation-for-kunduz-hospital-attack.html?_r=0

Spread across the hospital roof was a large white and red flag reading “Médecins Sans Frontières,” the group’s French name. On the afternoon before the strike, the fighting in the neighborhood had quieted enough for staff members to safely climb to the roof and lay out the markers identifying the building to any military aircraft flying over.

The group had also sent the longitude and latitude coordinates of the hospital, for years the most important trauma center in that part of northern Afghanistan, to the United States military to remind it where not to attack during the fighting.

The main hospital building, the most clearly marked in the medical complex, received the brunt of the bombardment on Oct. 3. The perimeter of the hospital was mostly spared, suggesting that the main hospital building was the specific target of the various aerial passes by the American Special Operations AC-130, a gunship used by the military because of its ability to deliver precise strikes on one spot over an extended period of time.

[lpbk2713]

32. Unfuggenbelievable.

The AC-130 can turn anything into rubble in seconds.
Someone needs to be held accountable here. There is
no excuse for this.

[polly7]

56. That makes it all the more heartbreaking.

They risked their lives to clearly mark it.

[Blue_Tires]

29. I don't want to spoil your outrage party

but that's what gunners are supposed to do when they are given orders to fire...


This is the part where I mention Russia for the millionth time, but to be honest, nobody here gives a shit...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Refuse.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

38. And this is the part where I question your lack of outrage, and more.

That you're ok with this is decidedly not a good thing.

[Blue_Tires]

40. Congrats on hitting #10,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been here 12-13 years and I don't think I've ever had somebody respond to me on a milestone post...






I would have been more outraged had the U.S. tried to cover it up (but we admitted responsibility), and all this "war crime" hysteria on DU when Assad has been doing this shit daily for the past five years doesn't sit right with me...

And as I've pointed out before, MSF has gotten their facilities shot up with fatalities before, and nobody raised an eyebrow...

[ozone_man]

55. Assad has been a target of CIA coup for 10 years now.

Part of the coup strategy is a huge disinformation campaign. Not saying he is a great guy, but compared to the alternatives, I'll take a secular, sovereign country over a CIA installed puppet ruler (shades of the Shah), or theocracy (ISIS), allowed by us looking the other way as Saudi Arabia and Turkey have fueled their rise.

[polly7]

57. Exactly. nt.

[Blue_Tires]

67. A secular, sovereign ruler who has killed 300,000 of his people?

Sure, bro....

[KoKo]

33. The General in charge called it a "Mistake"

They hoped it would die down. It's a War Crime .....but, who will prosecute these days?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Riiiiiiight. We can trust the military. They seem to have a corner on "mistakes".

Especially when they investigate themselves. Fortunately, MSF is conducting its own investigation and it's clear it wasn't. It was murder.

[rhett o rick]

54. During the Bush Admin, mistakes were rewarded with Metals of Peace. How ironic. Sadly

I do not believe Pres Obama is responsible. I believe he answers to a higher power for military or terrorist related actions. I think Gen Clapper is really in charge. Who would want to cross him?

[eridani]

59. No. Putting the wrong grade of motor oil in your car is a mistake. This was a crime n/t

[hifiguy]

39. No surprise. None at all.

Bring the pilots and gunners out at the Superb Owl for a rousing patriotic celebration.

[Wounderland]

43. War is ugly

The US shouldn't even be over there.

[WillyT]

45. K & R !!!

[Sienna86]

46. I want President Obama to do a national speech apologizing

To MSF. The buck stops there.

[Stuart G]

63. I agree totally.

[eridani]

60. 13 page report issued by Doctors without Borders

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/06/1445417/-Open-thread-for-night-owls-M-decins-Sans-Fronti-res-issues-report-on-U-S-attack-on-its-hospital

Krishnadev Calamur at The Atlantic takes a look at the 13-page report issued Thursday by Médecins Sans Frontières (Doctors Without Borders) regarding the hour-long U.S. bombing and strafing of its hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, October 3. At least 30 patients and MSF staff members were killed. A month after the attack, NATO and the United States have not yet produced their own promised reports. Apparently the 50 buckets of whitewash they ordered haven't yet arrived:

In the aftermath of the bombing, MSF called for a never-before-used mechanism of the Geneva Conventions to investigate the strike, and General John Campbell, the senior-most U.S. commander in Afghanistan, said the “hospital was mistakenly struck”—an apparent evolution of the U.S. position on what happened that day in Kunduz. [...]

At a news conference in Kabul on Thursday, Christopher Stokes, MSF’s general director, said it’s “quite hard to understand and believe” the hospital was mistakenly hit. The group released an initial internal review of the strike that pointed out that U.S. and allied militaries were given the GPS coordinates of the hospital, and though Taliban members were treated at the facility, there were no weapons inside—in keeping with the organization’s rules. The report makes for chilling reading.

One excerpt: “Patients burned in their beds, medical staff were decapitated and lost limbs, and others were shot by the circling AC-130 gunship while fleeing the burning building.” In its report, MSF said:


This is the view from inside the hospital. What we lack is the view from outside the hospital—what happened within the military chains of command.

The facts compiled in this review confirm our initial observations: the MSF trauma centre was fully functioning as a hospital with 105 patients admitted and surgeries ongoing at the time of the US airstrikes; the MSF rules in the hospital were implemented and respected, including the ‘no weapons’ policy; MSF was in full control of the hospital before and at the time of the airstrikes; there were no armed combatants within the hospital compound and there was no fighting from or in the direct vicinity of the trauma centre before the airstrikes. What we know is that we were running a hospital treating patients, including wounded combatants from both sides—this was not a ‘Taliban base.’

The question remains as to whether our hospital lost its protected status in the eyes of the military forces engaged in this attack—and if so, why. The answer does not lie within the MSF hospital. Those responsible for requesting, ordering and approving the airstrikes hold these answers. [...]

What we demand is simple: a functioning hospital caring for patients, such as the one in Kunduz, cannot simply lose its protection and be attacked; wounded combatants are patients and must be free from attack and treated without discrimination; medical staff should never be punished or attacked for providing treatment to wounded combatants.

[Sunlei]

65. This needs to be done, use the mechanism of the Geneva Conventions. There should be no delay.

It can't be years from now. Even another month is to long. Attacks on field hospitals and hospitals for civilian communities increase in all the countries at war. Many are directly targeted.

[WinkyDink]

61. "Apologized"??!! WTH?? There is no adequate "APOLOGY." This wasn't a fender-bender.

[laundry_queen]

64. I know right?

WTF. Just WTF.

[WinkyDink]

66. This atrocious "apology" trend started with convicted murderers, but then, they are sociopaths. Hmmm

[Jesus Malverde]

62. It lingered on the scene 30 minutes, well illuminated with the highest tech night vision equipment

And recorded it all, in real time. It takes a real naivety to believ the official narratives. The AC 130 spectre is a beast of a killer and it did its job that night.