About those High School football players who took out the referee?

[philosslayer]

An assistant coach on the team admitted that he ordered the players to do it. He was infuriated by continual racial slurs the referee was making throughout the course of the game.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13721638/john-jay-assistant-mack-breed-admitted-ordering-players-hit-referee-response-alleged-racist-comments-bad-calls

The truth is finally starting to come out, and it doesn't fit the knee-jerk narrative that was trumpted right after the game.

The players followed the instructions of their coach. They should be reinstated.

The coach should be suspended. Perhaps for a few games; maybe for the season.

The referee should be banished from high school sporting events.

[Glassunion]

1. The players should not be reinstated.

The coach should be fired if he instructed them to do it.

The referee should be fired if he was making racist comments.

[Kaleva]

2. The kids are old enough to know not to follow such instructions.

And the coach ought to be banned from football for life.

[gratuitous]

15. I tend to agree . . .

I think the players were old enough to recognize that they were doing something wrong. But it does put me in mind of the never-ending discussion about military personnel and "illegal" orders. Full disclosure: Not a big fan of the military.

Anyway, in many discussions, particularly about torture and other war crimes, people constantly say that the common soldiery are not bound to obey an illegal order. In practical terms, though, how are the underlings supposed to differentiate between legal and illegal orders? Military discipline requires following orders without question. A soldier ordered to fire on a group of civilians might even stop to object, but the response is often "Soldier, I don't have to explain myself, and I know more about the situation than you. You're going on report for this, now fire!"

The guy with the gun is in an untenable position. Shoot those civilians, and you're probably committing a war crime. Don't shoot, and you may be endangering yourself and your comrades, certainly you're breaking down unit cohesion and damaging the commander's credibility. What's the right thing to do? If he doesn't shoot, can the soldier count on a military tribunal to exonerate him for disobeying an illegal order, or will it come down to his word against an officer's word? How is that likely to go?

For the players, blindsiding the official is obviously wrong, even if your coach told you to do it. But these are still high school boys; what are the repercussions they might face? Are those players on track to go to a big time football program? If they tell the coach to go fly a kite, they're not going to blindside the official even if he is a racist jerk, do they get benched? Are they subject to ostracism for not being team players? What if they tell the head coach or a school administrator about Coach Fireball's ordering them to hit the official? Will they be believed? Or will it degenerate into a he said / he said scenario, and they get kicked off the team for lying? The students are just passing through the school; coaches are going to be there for years.

It seems odd to me that viewed in a certain way, we expect better and more mature judgment from high schoolers than from military personnel.

[roscoeroscoe]

56. Sir, please let me respond

20 year active duty Army here, still serving. A couple notes.

It's a shame the military has bad apples, and that some of those drawn toward military service don't measure up. But the Army has strong programs in place to teach the Geneva Convention, Law of War, and other related topics. These are mandatory yearly briefings. Any Soldier who tries to claim ignorance of these principles is pretty much lying blatantly. The classes related to Law of War include such things as how to deal with illegal orders: distract, avoid, question, report, gain the support of your fellow Soldiers, and so on. Really, there is a full range of options discussed.

I am sadly aware of so many criminal incidents, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan. But I want to assure you, these criminal incidents aren't tolerated and the training regarding the Law of War is solid

[1monster]

64. Several years ago I asked three or four high school ROTC students

if they were given an illegal order by a superior officer to fire into an unarmed, peaceful demonstration, would they do it?

In all cases the answer was a definite yes. One young lady answered, "Absolutely."

After that, I stopped asking. I wanted so badly to make sure those kids knew that they had a moral and legal obligation to refuse to carry out orders that were illegal, but my position was such that I could have been fired for doing so.

Many of those ROTC kids go right into military service right out of high school...

[stevenleser]

69. Hose High school ROTC students would start getting those briefings their first week of

Active duty during basic in any of the branches of service.

[Kaleva]

70. Just following orders isn't considered a valid defense by anyone

Not for soldiers who commit war crimes, hit men working for organized crime nor should it be an excuse for those two high school football players.

i served in the Navy for a number of years and it stressed that all lawful orders must be obeyed. There were a few instances where I was ordered to falsify paperwork so the unit would get good to excellent grades in an upcoming inspection. Those orders were unlawful but I knew my life on board ship would become hell if I didn't do that but I also knew that I'd be in deep shit if caught by the inspectors and i couldn't pass blame on the superiors who told me to do what I did.

[JI7]

3. were the kids 7 years old ?

[trumad]

4. Oh I see...

And what would your thought be if they broke the guys back? Or Paralyzed him with the vicious blindside hit to his body?

[philosslayer]

5. They didn't

n/t

[trumad]

8. But what if they did?

Would they be in trouble? After all they were told by the Coach to do it.

[GGJohn]

30. But they damn well could have with the vicious hits.

Is there any actual proof, other than the assistant coach's word, that this ref was hurling racial epitaphs?
Or is just an excuse by the coach because there were some calls that went against the team?

[philosslayer]

36. Four players heard him

And reported it. Thats good enough for me.

[GGJohn]

38. How do you know these players aren't lying to protect their ass?

Or the ass. coach's ass?

[philosslayer]

40. And how do you know the referee isn't a racist?

When four people corroborate an allegation, I tend to take it seriously.

[GGJohn]

46. But you seem to believe them when there's, so far, no history or prior record of

racial slurs from this ref.
I'll ask you again, is there ANY history of any racial slurs from this ref in any of the other 500 games he's officiated? Or any history in his private life?

So what if 4 high schoolers corroborate this allegation, again, how do you know their not covering their ass? Or the Ass. coach's ass?

[christx30]

72. And even if the ref shows up in a Klan hood

saying n this and n that, that's still no reason for an assault. In any situation, fighting words or not, it's still criminal assault. The full force of the law needs to fall on these kids.

[GGJohn]

73. Fully agree with you. eom.

[Drahthaardogs]

48. Except two of them have their ass in a sling.

So I am going to assume they have ample reason to lie. They might also be sympathetic for their coach, yet another reason to lie. I would assume that if the referee were making racists slurs, more than four people would have heard him. When a few players from the other team say the ref is a racist, I will on that bandwagon with you.

[GGJohn]

49. And another thing to ponder,

this ref has officiated over 500 games so far, and, so far, there is no history of this racist behavior that these 5 individuals are alleging.
Did he suddenly decide to start being a racist at this particular game? Is there any history of this in his private or public life?

[Logical]

54. Bullshit, so for years he was not a racist and now decided to be? Gullible much? nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

63. Okay Killer... at what level of violence do you draw the line for words you don't like?

A slap? A punch? A kick? A body-blow? A stab? A shot from a gun?

[uhnope]

57. So the race-word card = get out of jail card even for attempted murder

got it

[Throd]

6. Is this true, or do people just want it to be?

[DrDan]

20. apparently true

http://247sports.com/Bolt/Report-Coach-admits-he-told-players-to-hit-official-39658676

[Brickbat]

7. Pretty sure the "knee-jerk narrative" about people being shitty still applies.

[Travis_0004]

9. The players were old enough to know better

The suspension should stand. Fire the coach. Fire the Ref.

[trumad]

10. Fire the Ref---for what?

There is no proof that he said what he said--the only proof are from the culprits who may be covering their asses.

[Travis_0004]

12. After an investigation if the alegations are true

If only the coach and players on that team claim to have heard it, then there is no evidence.

If other refs or the other team heard it, that is different.

[Journeyman]

11. If the referee made such comments, you'd think he'd have a history of doing so . . .

this wasn't his first game as a referee, so you'd think someone would have had a run-in with him in the past.

The coach should have lodged a complaint with the entire officiating staff, and thereby begun legal proceedings against the referee, potentially gaining a favorable ruling for his team after a proper investigation.

The kids should have known better. If this all proves true as the coach claims, there may be room for leniency, at least enough to protect their future education. Their time in organized sports, however, has passed.

Glad I'm not on the governing board for any high school sport. Too damn cutthroat, too damn emotional.

[trumad]

13. Exactly..

The players made this claim:

The students made one more major claim: that their assistant coach urged them to act out against the ref, telling the players: "'That guy needs to pay for cheating us. Or words to that effect," said Gonzalez.

It appears they were pissed about the calls being made against them.

[Igel]

43. But the other claim allows greater justification.

I mean, there are people who think that the Holocaust wasn't evil because it killed millions, but because it was racist.

Racism on that scale is bad. But without the mass murder, it's just oppression.

Now, many have justified oppression for "the cause" even with mass murder on the same or greater scale, so for that crew human life is pretty much dirt. They can be ignored as anti-liberal, anti-humanist, anti-humanity and just "pro-my-ideology."

But for the rest of us, the mass murder of the Holocaust by itself makes it an abomination; the racism adds icing to the evil.

Expanding it from "the Jewish Holocaust" and the #JewishLivesMatter that it sort of entails to include other peoples probably rankles those who dislike having their unique status as oppressed challenged, but that gays, Roma, and many a Slav were also include in that debacle of death and misery does not detract from the metaphor.

[Phentex]

14. Agreed...

you just saved me the typing. And if these were my kids and they followed an order like this, I'd remove them from the team myself.

[tammywammy]

16. Coach should be fired and the students involved not allowed back on the field.

They're high schoolers, old enough that "following orders" isn't a good excuse. They shouldn't be allowed back on the field and be thankful if they're not charged with assault.

If the ref was truly saying those things, then I hope the coach recorded it or has people - not on the football team - that can back it up. Either way the coach shouldn't be allowed back on the field if he ordered two big padded up guys to attack from behind a defenseless ref.

I doubt the ref did anything other than call plays the coach didn't agree with.

[Doctor_J]

17. This ref has officiated 500 games

I think the story from the coach and the assailants smells fishy

[joeybee12]

18. I agree...

Maybe some more will come out to indicate maybe the guy had a history of saying such things, but so far nothing.

[trumad]

22. Yeah..his 501st he decides to use the N word.

Fishy indeed.

[Logical]

53. So true, no reports of being a racist until now? What a coincidence!! nt

[bigwillq]

19. Coach and players should serve a season-long suspension.

And the officials should find a new job if the allegations against them are true.

[ScreamingMeemie]

21. +1

[TipTok]

23. If I tell you to go rob a bank....

... and then you go do it...

That means that I am in trouble as well. It doesn't absolve them.

They aren't infants...

[NutmegYankee]

24. The players should stay banned - "I was just following orders" isn't a valid excuse.

It wasn't valid back in the 40s where the speakers got a long drop with a quick stop, and still isn't today.

[Takket]

25. they were plenty old enough to know better.

they are all to blame. kids, coach, ref, all of them.

[GGJohn]

32. Why is the ref to blame?

There's no evidence of any racial epitaphs being uttered by this ref.
Do you realize that this ref has 500 games officiating under his belt with no complaints of racial animus? Do you believe that game 501 he decided to become a racist?

[rpannier]

26. Nope. They should still be suspended

What they did qualifies as battery under the law
That the coach told them to is irrelevant
They could have said they wouldn't or just ignored the coach (and yes I played high school sports)

[sarisataka]

27. Reinstated? No

They are old enough to face consequences for their actions.

The ref should be fired if the allegations prove true. The players/ coach's word is not enough at this point.

The coach needs to be fired from all school jobs. Someone who encourages teen to such dangerous and illegal action has should not be allowed to work with children.

[yuiyoshida]

28. wow!

[rollin74]

29. even if true, it doesn't absolve the players of responsibility for their own actions

the players weren't being forced at gunpoint to do what they did and are damn sure old enough to know better

they should be permanently kicked off the team

the coach should be fired


again, that is IF this story is true

[geek tragedy]

31. Troll much? nt

[GGJohn]

33. This thread isn't going quite the way you imagined it would is it? eom.

[geek tragedy]

45. It's going exactly how they intended nt

[GGJohn]

34. Besides the allegations of the coach, what other proof is there of racial slurs being

uttered by this ref?
Is there any history of this ref hurling racial epitaphs?
Why now? He's officiated 500 games, is there any complaints from other teams of such behavior?

[philosslayer]

35. What "proof" are you looking for?

Its a football game. Players aren't exactly bringing their iPhones onto the field to record it. According to the article, at least four players heard him the referee utter slurs. Sounds like pretty good proof to me.

[GGJohn]

37. How come there's no history of this behavior?

He's officiated over 500 games, now he starts hurling racial epitaphs?
How do you know that these players aren't just trying to cover their ass? And the coach's ass?
Unless there's a history of this kind of behavior, I'm calling bullshit on their allegations.

[philosslayer]

39. How do you know there isn't?

Maybe players in other games just didn't say anything. Maybe they hadn't heard him. Do you know his history? What's been alleged about him in the past? Do you know anything about him at all?

[brentspeak]

41. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused

You can't prove a negative.

[GGJohn]

47. So you're willing to take the word of a disgraced coach, and 4 high school players,

who may, hell, probably, are protecting their ass and the Ass. coach's ass?
Even without any corroborating evidence?

[Logical]

58. Not a deep thinker I see! Nt

[Adrahil]

42. reinstated? Yeah... NO

They kids knew damn well that was illegal.

[Igel]

44. Nurnberg defense, I see.

"Just following orders."

[Hassin Bin Sober]

50. Oh what a coincidence. The team that has a coach who puts out a hit order......

.... on a REF also had players ejected from the game for unsportsmanlike conduct.

The fish rots from the head down.

And now unsubstantiated claims of racist statements. Bull shit.

I played high school football. And there were always teams that had a rep for dirty play. Everyone of the teams had coaches with bad reputations.

[Downwinder]

51. Same old Military question.

Who was responsible for abuse at Abu Ghraib prison and who was charged and punished?

[Logical]

52. Really silly post. Kids should of known better. Should be done with sports. nt

[uhnope]

55. BULLSHIT! Bad words are not a green light to violent retribution

And the coach has a strong motivation to lie.
Put the players and coach in prison where they belong

[Inkfreak]

59. Nope, they sure shouldn't.

They're old enough to know better. They should all be banned from playing/coaching at that or any other school.

[Marr]

60. There's one born every minute, I guess.

It's just unbelievable that a few guys who dangerously assaulted someone in public would lie just to cover their asses, right?

[sarisataka]

61. Texas High School Football Coach Recants Statement Saying He Ordered Players To Hit Referee

UPDATE -- Thursday, 12:30 p.m.: John Jay High School football coach Mack Breed has recanted an earlier statement saying that he ordered two players, Victor Rojas and Miguel Moreno, to tackle a referee during a game earlier this month, according to Kens5.com, a Gannett subsidiary. Breed has also resigned, ESPN's John Barr reports.

In a new statement, Breed writes that he "never told these players to hurt or injure anyone in that football game."

Breed went on to claim that during the bus ride home after the Sept. 4 game between John Jay High School and Marble Falls, he decided to commit to a false statement to protect Rojas and Moreno.

"I did that hoping the kids would still be able to play and not get expelled from school," Breed wrote. "Now that I have seen the video and see how they hit the referee, I can no longer take the blame for the incident," he continued.

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/texas-high-school-football-mack-breed_5602d364e4b00310edf97f54?utm_hp_ref=sports&ir=Sports§ion=sports

Now who should be punished/reinstated?

[lame54]

62. that is the same story that came out immediately...

And the kids should not be reinstated
They new what they were doing was wrong
It still has not been determined if the racial slurs actually happened

[taught_me_patience]

65. coach should be suspended for a few games?

What the hell... this has to be a troll post. Most insane thing I've read today.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

66. "The truth is finally starting to come out"

Uh huh....

[GGJohn]

67. It is, but not in the way the OP intended it to.

[Waldorf]

68. This was on the news tonight because a member of the UIL is also here in Dallas.

The two students are off the team and have been assigned to an alternative school. They can return to their High School in January.

The assistant coach resigned.

Neither the coach nor students spoke before the UIL.

Watts is still recovering and was represented by his attorneys, who said Watts never used any racial slurs.

[GGJohn]

71. So, do you still believe that the ref hurled racial slurs at the players? eom.

The coach has rescinded his confession, and resigned.