General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRefugee: It's 'Germany Or Nothing' For Us
In the north of Munich an old military camp is now a migrant centre and a microcosm for the problem Europe faces.
Whilst some of the residents are newly-arrived from the conflict in Syria, many are not - there are Afghans, Senegalese, Albanians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.
Housam Kbieh fled the Syrian capital Damascus with his wife and two sons, one of whom is disabled and needs specialist medical care.
If he is forced to move from Germany to another EU country, Housam says he will return to Syria: "I go back to my country, it's Germany or nothing."
http://news.sky.com/story/1557225/refugee-its-germany-or-nothing-for-us
Germany needs to step up and do the right thing here.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)I know a couple. They are in the US as their "political dissident" status is reviewed by the State Department. They have charitable organizations coaching them how to convince the government they have "a legitimate fear of persecution" if they return to their home countries. Of course, their only real fear is living in the impoverished crap holes they face back home. I think many of the refugees entering the EU are simply running from poverty, and they know only Germany has the big economy and welfare system they need. Actually, they could do OK in other EU nations, but Germany is the "streets paved with god" place in their minds. You can bet that guy will not go back to Syria is Germany is denied to him. Germany is stepping up and doing the right thing, but it cannot accommodate all the refugees. Some will have to settle for something other than Germany.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)First of all, there is nothing "simple" about running from poverty. Poverty kills. And when people run from poverty they are putting everything on the line. They are not engaging in some grand scheme to get a free ride. They are trying to survive.
Second, if someone is seeking asylum they need people to coach them because they do not know the laws and they often do not know the language. That in no way negates the legitimacy of their claim.
Third, what you "think" about refugees entering the EU is meaningless. You do not know their situation or what they are running from. People do not get in rickety boats and risk their lives and that of their families just because they want a better life somewhere. They do it because they see it as their best chance to survive.
branford
(4,462 posts)Last edited Thu Sep 24, 2015, 02:07 PM - Edit history (1)
international and European law defines "refugees," and economic migration does not qualify. Similarly, "asylum shopping" after a refugee is in a technically "safe" country is generally impermissible.
No one contends that issues of poverty are "simple," but that doesn't mean citizens of other countries are legally obligated to provide anyone a better economic life. Nevertheless, all western countries have means to legally immigrate. If you do not like or agree with the current laws, seek to change them, but they cannot just be ignored.
Moreover, there is quite a significant legal gulf between explaining laws and procedures to people trying to claim asylum and coaching them to provide the 'right" answers. As a litigation attorney who regularly prepares witnesses for deposition and trial, I can assure you that the difference is not really that subtle, one is witness preparation, the other suborning perjury.
As to your contention that "people do not get in rickety boats and risk their lives and that of their families just because they want a better life somewhere," the list of people who are denied asylum and simply reading the news easily refutes your statement. The desire to improve the economic lot of yourself and family, as you suggest in your own post, is quite a powerful motivating factor. However, this does not make someone an actual legal refugee or overrule well established law.
You further state about the earlier poster, "you do not know their situation or what they are running from." Respectfully, the same could be said about you. At most, data indicated about 60% of the migrants claim to be refugees from Syria, and given the incentive to make such claims, together with the rampant and willful destruction of identifying documents, the actual number is probably notably lower. As claims are slowly processed, it will become readily apparent that a statistically significant number of migrants are not refugees.
Edit: Here's an interesting article from today's Washington Post about economic migrants disguising themselves as Syrian refugees.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/migrants-are-disguising-themselves-as-syrians-to-gain-entry-to-europe/2015/09/22/827c6026-5bd8-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)I know the difference between migrants and refugees. But the fact remains that from a humanitarian standpoint many of these distinctions are not so real as we would like to think. And much of Europe could actually benefit from these people, whether they be migrants or refugees, in that the birth rate in Europe is for the most part not keeping up with the labor demand. So it is actually in the interest of all of Europe to find a way to assimilate most of these people. Obviously Germany should not have to take them all. That is why the EU had better get this figured out soon.
branford
(4,462 posts)the only opinions that matter as to their disposition are the of the people in their democratic countries.
It is for the people of the affected countries, destination and transit, through their elected representatives, to decide whether and to what extent they wish to extend their generosity.
In any event, one of the biggest problems is how to compassionately deal with the actual and quite significant crisis without encouraging even more people to come. If such a balance is not reached, the people in the affected countries will not tolerate the current liberal entry policies, and the right wing will continue to grow rapdily in Europe. That will be disastrous for everyone, citizens, migrants and refugees.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)I have family members from Mexico, Canada, China, Japan and the Philippines. You know what they want? Perhaps you're thinking, "More people like themselves, people from those countries you mentioned." Hahahahaha! They want to close the golden door behind themselves and extinguish that lifted lamp so others cannot find their way here. They're not xenophobic, but they realize they are living the American Dream, and they'd rather not share. Groundless fear of foreigners is xenophobia. Realizing one country cannot take them all is not xenophobia. As you say, the EU will have to figure it out.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)DFW
(54,369 posts)"Syrian" passports of varying quality are being hocked to Bangladeshis, Pakistania and Afghanis that can afford them for about €1000 apiece as "the ticket" into the EU. Never takes long for someone to find out a way to profit from misery, does it? These poor people have no clue that Europe is full of Arabic speakers who know in an instant if someone is from Syria or not. Show up speaking only Bengali, Farsi or Urdu, and that Syrian passport you sold your home for gets worthless fast.
eissa
(4,238 posts)with posts by people who have never lived in a war zone, and never have to worry about running for their lives. So discouraging to see this crap on a "progressive" site. Dig out the bad apples, shine a light on them and proclaim they are "all the same." They want Germany because Germany has said they will accept them, has the programs in place to help them get back on their feet (I thought we approved of such programs? You know, helping the poor reclaim their lives, or are we the "get your own boot straps" kind of place now?) After years of living in a war zone or squalid refugee camps, the vast majority of these WAR REFUGEES are seeking peace and stability. They're not going to "mooch" off anyone.
[link:
pampango
(24,692 posts)... when the dust from the current refugee crisis settles, the most pressing question will be - who were the nations that failed to live up to basic standards of humanity; who refused to offer help to people in extreme distress caused by raging war and violence. On top of that, there will be another issue: did Europe, as a political entity, manage to find a humane and efficient answer to a difficult situation? Indeed, the scale of the crisis is now so dramatic, that left on their own some of the smaller countries – such as Greece, Hungary or Bulgaria – could hardly cope with it.
Conservatives seem to argue for a policy of ‘closure’ of borders through a system of walls, as measures stopping or redirecting the flow of refugees. In short, this position is a refusal of compassion, an attempt to shift the responsibility onto somebody else. Below I review the most popular arguments used to ‘justify’ such a position. On closer inspection they all seem to be logically weak: the problem, however, is that they capture the imagination of large masses of people in Europe.
“The refugees are actually economic migrants searching for a better life”
The distinction between the two categories – refugees and migrants - is important: the moral and legal duty to help the former is much stronger and explicit. Therefore, the most pressing problem is to deal with the refugees coming from areas of violent conflict. Economic migration is a different type of challenge –albeit a very important one. But it could be dealt with by a different set of policies, which are more restrictive and more discriminative vis-à-vis respective applicants.
Some have argued that Syrians cease being refugees the moment they leave Turkey or Jordan for Europe: they become economic migrants, since their lives have already been saved by the first country of entry. Leaving aside the legal side of the issue, such a manipulation of labels has little moral or political merit. The truth is that countries in the Middle East cannot handle the refugee influx, even if they are helped financially by Europe and others. People cannot be kept in tent camps indefinitely, neither can the economies of Middle East countries absorb the newcomers meaningfully. In this sense, shifting the burden to Turkey or Jordan does not absolve Europe of its moral responsibility. True, Gulf states could themselves do much more to help the refugees. But their failure to live up to basic moral standards cannot be an excuse for Europe to do the same.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/daniel-smilov/argument-against-compassion-europe-and-refugees
The UNHCR has stated that 85%-90% of these people are genuine refugees.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I thought once you got a passport from any EU member, you could freely travel anywhere in the EU?
eissa
(4,238 posts)Greece, Macedonia, Serbia and Austria are allowing them to pass through. Hungarians have by far been the worst in terms of their treatment. Also, Germany appears to be the most organized in setting up the refugees. They have places for them to stay, and a system set-up that allows them to start the integration process. My husband's family were given shelter upon arrival and they're already enrolled in German language classes. The son is gathering information about the university system and its requirements so he'll be ready to complete his education once he finishes the language program.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I can't speak for all refugees, just for my family that made it there. If they were unable to settle in Germany they were hoping to make it to The Netherlands as we have family there. Hopefully other nations -- particularly Turkey, Saudi and the Gulf states -- will step up and take the burden off Germany and help out a bit. Before anyone says anything about Turkey taking in 2 million refugees; that statistic is false. Turkey is a mere transition point. They've allowed refugees in, but will not issue them work permits or allow them to stay, despite having both the resources and space to accommodate them.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)They have no future in Turkey. Syrians can't get work permits there.
At first, I thought the huge flows of people this year were coming directly out of Syria, thinking to myself that this was a sign ordinary people were giving up hope of ever seeing peace there. But I don't really know.
I am also struck by how educated many of these refugees are. They speak English, they are professionals. (Of course, there is some bias here: The ones who don't speak English aren't going to be talking to media people as much.) It makes me think they're coming from the big cities--Aleppo, Damascus, and I saw that as a sign middle class Syrians are giving up. I could be wrong.
eissa
(4,238 posts)While some are coming directly from Syria, others have been in refugee camps in Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan. Most (like my in-laws) were hoping things would get better so they could return to their homes. The vast majority do NOT want to leave. But after five years, their cities reduced to rubble, murderous rebels on every corner, there's just nothing to return to.
I can't blame Lebanon and Jordan for not being able to handle the influx any longer. Both have taken in their fair share of Palestinian, Iraqi and Syrian refugees, and both countries lack the resources and space to accommodate them. Turkey has no excuse. If they treated the refugees better and allowed them to work, most would remain there. But they'll happily take their money and send them off to sea for Europe to deal with.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Erdogan should tend to his own house, not interfere in Syria.
eissa
(4,238 posts)Which makes them not taking in the refugees they helped create even more despicable.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)And I am deeply disturbed by the small-minded responses to this crisis.
DFW
(54,369 posts)We have already agreed to augment our population here by over 1% in one year, largely with single Muslim males who speak no German and have no work skills. The xenophobic Neo-Nazis will have a field day with this after the first headline of an assault on a German girl by one of these poor guys, who got no instruction on what they can and can't do before being given an apartment and pocket money. When the USA is ready to do that with 3,500,000 people matching the same description and put them in their most densely populated areas, THEN you can tell Germany what it NEEDS to do.
