No, we are not a police state--yet

[pinboy3niner]

We see declarations that America is now a police state in our threads from time-to-time. Those hyperbolic statements are often criticized with comparisons to the practices of actual police states, past and current.

It has even been suggested that complaints about police brutality here are comparable to complaints about getting "a bad latte" at Starbucks.

From what I can see, the U.S. is not a police state. But we seem to be moving in that direction.

It's not that the police brutality documented at Occupy demonstrations is anything new (that goes back decades).

What is new is the further criminalization of First Amendment protests (ordnances criminalizing sitting or lying in a park, or placing anything on the ground, and limited hours for "camping&quot .

Also new is the militarization of police departments. The L.A. County Sheriff's Department (LACSD) even has a truck dedicated to traveling around the country to collect surplus military equipment.

Add to that the federal laws, passed ostensibly to counter terrorism, that continue to encroach on the rights of American citizens.

And the new hardware the PDs get is supposed to be deployed against terrorists. So why is it deployed near peaceful demonstrations?



I took this photo of the LASD vehicle deployed only a few doors away from the Ocupy L.A. May Day gathering point at Pershing Park on May Day.

There was no hostage situation or other crisis in L.A. that day.

And the guy in the right forefront of that photo? That happens to be a DUer. He's already in the LAPD dossiers, so I have no problem saying that he's our own Fire Walk With Me. And I was proud to march with Fire, U4ik Lefty, and Mr. and Mrs. coalition_unwilling in our L.A. M1GS protests.

[Zalatix]

1. Cameras active near the LAPD? That's suicidal.

What is the LAPD, the 8th largest army in the world or something?

[DLevine]

2. K&R.

I believe we are rapidly moving towards a police state.

[KG]

3. oh, it's here already. our own 'uniquely american' solution.

[cali]

4. call it a "soft" police state if you will, but I believe it already is a police state

in that the state has developed and is using surveillance techniques that are broad and sweeping, not to mention the brutality wielded by PDs against protestors the domestic use of drones, etc.

[G_j]

5. agreed. nt

[Magoo48]

6. Agreed also.....

[Fuddnik]

10. Managed Democracy, Inverted Totalitarianism.

Here's a must read.

http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Incorporated-Managed-Inverted-Totalitarianism/dp/0691135665

[TBF]

12. Sadly I think you're correct

the surveillance, brutality, and use of drones are good examples. Unlawful detention is another hint.

[hifiguy]

33. Bingo.

[lunatica]

7. When is that magical moment that we can say it is a police state?

See the documentary "A Day of Destruction, a Decade of War" by Rachel Maddow and Richard Engle. They talk about the NYPD pretty extensively during a large part of it. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44292512/vp/44380847#44380847

And why do the police need this vehicle?



Or the growing use of drones in American cities?

http://defensetech.org/2012/03/08/police-drones-are-already-here/

[randome]

8. Really? Limited hours for camping? You include that as evidence of a police state?

Some of the other examples you chose bother me, too, like the military-style equipment.

But that seems to be police budgets gone wild, not evidence of an encroaching police state.

When 'protesting' involves sitting in public parks -and those camp-outs are not appreciated by the people who actually own the park- then, yeah, I can see why some cities might think updating their ordinances might be a good thing.

Protesting was never conceived as taking over public property. It's a new concept for many cities to deal with.

[cali]

9. how about domestic use of drones? National Security Letters?

[randome]

11. Please. That stuff's been discredited over and over.

Surveillance drones are just unmanned helicopters. Big deal.

If they were armed and deployed against Americans on American soil, then, yes, it would be a big deal.

National Security Letters? That stuff's been debunked so many times. Like HR 347, an update to a law that has been in effect for decades. Again, big deal.

The fact is that, despite a few scuffles and injuries in Chicago, the police showed remarkable restraint. So I don't think a police state involving people from thousands of different cities is in the making.

[cali]

13. well you sure haven't discredited anything with that post, honey.

but you are rather amusing in how you slough off what very credible experts see as serious encroachments on liberty.

[randome]

14. That's what I always strive for -amusement.

[Fuddnik]

16. Mission accomplished!

[bupkus]

18. Discredited? Where has it been discredited?

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/05/15/faa-to-ease-rules-for-police-agencies-to-fly-unmanned-drones/
FAA To Ease Rules For Police Agencies To Fly Unmanned Drones

http://www.click2houston.com/news/New-Police-Drone-Near-Houston-Could-Carry-Weapons/-/1735978/4717922/-/59xnnez/-/index.html
New Police Drone Near Houston Could Carry Weapons

http://www.aclu.org/support-oversight-secret-fisa-court
Support Oversight of the Secret FISA Court

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/all/1
The NSA Is Building the Country’s Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say)

These are just a few links. You provided none. Still think this "stuff" has been discredited over and over? I can provide more credible proof.. Where is yours?

[randome]

31. I only refer to previous -quite energizing- threads on DU.

I don't have links right now and I am doing too much posting at DU while at work.

But unmanned drones don't bother me any more than helicopters do.
Armed drones on American soil would bother me. A lot.
FISA refers to 'Foreign' intelligence operations.
I don't like the NSA spy center, either.

But this is not a police state.

[pinboy3niner]

21. Please, keep on being 'concerned' and 'amused'

For a while...

Your schtick is well known to us here. You've been granted every benefit of the doubt, given every concession. But how long do you think that will last...really?

You know that we've got a party coming up. One to which you won't be invited, though you'll be the subject..

And, try as you might, I doubt that there's a juror on this bus that will vote to lock me out of this thread...

C'est la vie.

[randome]

29. Glad to hear you have friends in high places.

But I've been on DU much longer than you. I think I know how to hold up my end of a discussion.

[Javaman]

15. The buy military gear to justify their budget...

they justify the budget with the purchase of military gear.

all brought to you by the hyper delusional right wing's need for a new boogie man.

only difference now is: We The People are their new boogie man.

[KurtNYC]

17. Gvmt's stimulus to the economy is about 50% military/prison/surveillance/wars/occupations

At some level capitalism is mindless -- credit fueled expansion into ever increasing non-physical products. Before 1820 the economy was very stagnant and opportunities for tax collection were minimal. A farmer could barter. Only land owners were taxed. You were allowed to produce and administer your own medicines, bury your own dead, etc. There was no such thing as insurance and very little paper money in use. 200 years later we have derivitive swaps, a kind of fantasy football of abstract financial instruments that create no jobs, produce no goods and are unlimited in their scale.

Fear is now a commodity and so is security. Government continually gets more expensive as it works to expand the economy. We live in an era where a good chart has a line that goes up and to the right and that is all some people want to see. We have tanks on the streets because government has long ago run out of, or away from, reasonable and necessary things to spend money on and because government spends too much on everything it does and the people getting paid go back for more.

[bupkus]

19. Most people don't think it's a police state yet because it hasn't affected them personally

But just step over the line and get in their sights and the police state will prove you wrong so fast you won't know what the hell hit you.

[coalition_unwilling]

22. Bravo! I live in a racially mixed neighborhood of Los Angeles and

the police violence that Occupiers are now experiencing has been routine in the minority communities here for many years. My Latino and African American acquaintances do not endorse what the police have been doing to Occupy by any means. They seem by contrast to exhibit more of a "What took you so long to understand it?" mentality. It is I with my comfortable middle-class white privilege who has had the scales removed from my eyes in ways I had not before this.

[Marrah_G]

20. Thank you, all of you

[Trillo]

23. we can never become a police state

I think you're dealing with a matter of relativity. The more militarized the police get, the knee jerk reaction is to think we were are closer to or already in a police state, but ... no. The more militarized the police get, the less often warrants are used for information collection or surveillance, the further we are from a police state. This curiosity, an apparent contradiction, can be explained as a matter of relativity. As we get more militarized, we condition ourselves to think this is the new normal, hence more militarization than we currently have is required to be a police state. Under this type of relative thinking (some might say cognitive dissonance), we can never become a police state.

[pinboy3niner]

24. To buy that...

...we'd have to be tranquilized.

We may be slow...but we're not stupid.

[Trillo]

34. Money is an excellent "tranquilizer."

It also seems to cause hallucinations, among other things.

Also, it begins to explain the 1%'s fear of the 99%, as seen in the apparent police violence. The 1% know they don't pay the 99% enough to tranquilize us adequately.

[ananda]

25. Denial aint a river in Egypt.

We ARE a police state.

[janet118]

26. Here is a sampling of the people killed by police

Partial list of deaths caused by police in U.S.

I know it's not complete because the death of a mentally disturbed man who was shot by police in my town is not listed. It also doesn't seem to include people killed in car chases, restraint and taserings.

List of killings by law enforcement officers in the United States

[CrispyQ]

27. And you can be strip searched for something as simple as failure to come to a complete stop.

They are discouraging dissent as much as possible. They are putting in laws & plans for when the dissatisfaction of the lower & middle classes reaches critical mass.

[randome]

28. All 581,000+ police departments?

That's quite a lot of coordination goin' on!

[flamingdem]

30. yikes. That means I'm stopping

completely from now on!

[CrispyQ]

32. I use that example sort of in jest, but it's a common practice where I live.

They pull you over for failure to come to a complete stop & then you can only hope the officer is a good one & not looking to fuck with someone just to fuck with someone. Do you smell like you've had a drink or a hit? Does something look fishy in your car?

That ruling was total shit & they will use it to their advantage.