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CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:02 PM Jul 2015

Nudity, Art and Scandal in Paris! “Olympia” by Edouard Manet

“Good artists copy. Great artists steal”
---Pablo Picasso

“Olympia.” 1863. Musee d’Orsay. Paris.
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What is it about this bare naked lady that drove Parisians to near riot in 1865? It’s not like they hadn’t been exposed to naked females in art before. Certainly, Paris with its sophistication and love of artistic expression would seem to be an unlikely place for such hysterical fits.

But fits they were! The work’s showing at the Musee d’Orsay was greeted with outrage, catcalls, derision by art critics and hurled insults such as “yellow-bellied Odalisque” and “female gorilla.” Armed guards were placed next to it out of fears that it might be damaged or destroyed and it was placed high up, out of the reach of gentlemen’s canes.

The press delighted in piling on, publishing caricature cartoons such as this

[IMG][/IMG]
Olympia was a different kind of nude in art to Parisians of that time. Her slightly jaundiced skin was a shock to the senses of a populace that was used to seeing the female nude presented in creamy white toned skin and certainly without the hint of hair under her arm, as Manet does.

No, the difference was that Manet had painted a nude that was not idealized or allegorical. Furthermore, she is unabashed about her nudity, and her pose and gaze suggests that she was available only on her own terms. And she is presented frankly, as a prostitute or a mistress who is daringly lying in bed to have sex. Perhaps the real scandal here was that she was turning the “male gaze” on its head. In fact, she is looking directly at the viewer, unusual for women subjects except in portraits of a queen or other powerful women, such as a duchess.

To heighten the senses further, she is pictured languidly touching the silken shawl she lies upon. She is strategically adorned with a thin black ribbon around her neck, a bracelet on her arm, an exotic flower in her hair, earrings, and one slipper -- has she kicked off the other just to entice the viewer with her abandon even more?

Manet fully intended this painting to be his own version of Titian’s “Venus of Urbino.” Art historian Bruce Cole points out that Titian was a lodestar for painters of Manet’s day. In his book “Titian and Venetian Painting, 1450-1590,“ Cole writes of Manet visiting Florence and painting a copy of the masterpiece while he was there.

1538. Galleria degli Uffizi. Florence
[IMG][/IMG]

(Note Venus’s slightly tucked chin compared to Olympia’s steady, confident chin.)

Its predecessor was by Giorgione in 1510 (and finished by Titian)

Sleeping Venus. Gemäldegalerie Alte Meister. Dresden
[IMG][/IMG]

Titian’s Venus, commissioned by the Duke of Urbino, was perhaps an instructional for the Duke’s new16 year old wife. It’s eroticism was intended for private display and remained the the Duke’s family until 1637. It was placed in the Uffizi in 1736, but discreetly covered to keep it out of prurient view, given the subject’s materiality and sensuality.

Mark Twain managed to find and see it there in 1880. He described it as “the foulest, the vilest, the obscenest (sic) picture the world possesses” and complained about the “attitude” of her arm and hand. In fact, that “attitude” in all three of these paintings is a gesture well known by art historians as the “venus pudica,” which describes the covering of the woman’s pubis with her hand and goes back to ancient Greek sculpture and Renaissance masterpieces.

The Birth of Venus. Sandro Botticelli. c.1486. Uffizi. Florence.
[IMG][/IMG]

No such gesture was required of male nudes, however.

It is helpful, as always, to know the historical context in terms of the social issues at the time “Olympia” was exhibited. Rampant prostitution (with the resulting spread of syphilis) in Paris was regarded as a very serious social problem. The “service” was initially intended for young, unmarried agricultural workers who had started to work in Paris, and it quickly became uncontrolled. The courtesans in the highest level of society were considered particularly subversive as their increasing power to make their own transactions was seen to corrupt and subvert money and therefore the new capitalism of the early 1800s. The new bourgeousie were sexually repressed, very much for political and economic reasons.

Manet had to know that he was painting at the edges of political correctness of his day, even though he was a reluctant rebel, saying that he just painted what he saw. Perhaps so, but even his dramatic use of black and light accentuates the picture’s radical intensity. The black woman looms in darkness, bringing a brightly lit bouquet of flowers (implying a gift from a client but ignored by Olympia herself) to the luxuriant white pillowed bed. The black cat (replacing the little dog, symbolizing marital fidelity, at the feet of Titian’s Venus) arches its back with its tail in air, another defiant sexual connotation in the painting.

Manet also had to know that he was defying social norms by painting this work, and then by exhibiting it in the Paris Salon two years later. But he may not have realized that the critics and the public simply were not able to take it in stride and cope with it, in terms of analysis or understanding what they were dealing with. Perhaps they, and Manet himself, just did not know what to say in the aftermath.

NOTE: an added ironic twist to this story is that Manet’s model, Victorine Meurent, was no courtesan but was herself an artist and musician. Titian’s model, on the other hand, was.

These two paintings were exhibited together in 2005 at the Doge’s Palace in Venice. It had fulfilled a dream of art historians to see them side by side and, since Italian regulations prohibit the Venus of Urbino from leaving the country, Manet’s work had to go to Italy.
[IMG][/IMG]





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Nudity, Art and Scandal in Paris! “Olympia” by Edouard Manet (Original Post) CTyankee Jul 2015 OP
Fascinating post, as always, my dear CTyankee! CaliforniaPeggy Jul 2015 #1
Hey, Peggy, nice to see you! Thanks so much... CTyankee Jul 2015 #2
Totally useless? I don't think so! Bits of info like that are wonderful for impressing 1monster Jul 2015 #21
It's all just art history...how this stuff developes from once era to another... CTyankee Jul 2015 #23
Thanks for that NV Whino Jul 2015 #3
Yep, I liked that photo... CTyankee Jul 2015 #5
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #4
Glad you liked it! CTyankee Jul 2015 #6
I love art Uncle Joe Jul 2015 #44
Manet's nude was very different from the soft core porn of the day Warpy Jul 2015 #7
So very right. But I love the fact that she presents herself on her own terms... CTyankee Jul 2015 #10
Yet, he's hinted by the cord at her throat Warpy Jul 2015 #12
The black woman on the right is presenting a large bouquet of flowers... CTyankee Jul 2015 #13
That's what CW has always said Warpy Jul 2015 #14
In all my research on this painting I have never encountered that argument...but I CTyankee Jul 2015 #16
I don't see it as an infant, even ambiguously. Jim Lane Jul 2015 #65
k+R flamingdem Jul 2015 #8
As always, happy to see your Friday art posts. longship Jul 2015 #9
Hi, longship...great to see you... CTyankee Jul 2015 #11
Really amazing post Hydra Jul 2015 #15
and I'm not sure how conscious that evolution is but it does happen often in art first... CTyankee Jul 2015 #72
The best artists are usually rebels Hydra Jul 2015 #73
Yep. This is how the world, and art, changes...thanks so much! CTyankee Jul 2015 #74
Mark Twain was being sarcastic, as usual. eppur_se_muova Jul 2015 #17
Yes, I do get it. and thanks for that. I am remembering that in the earlier days of CTyankee Jul 2015 #24
Mais oui! elleng Jul 2015 #18
Thank you so much for these Friday treasures, CTYank! I learn so much. Mnemosyne Jul 2015 #19
and I learn by doing... CTyankee Jul 2015 #25
So it all works out quite nicely! nt Mnemosyne Jul 2015 #33
Wonderful post. Ashcroft's "nude" curtaining & Mrs Cheney's NEA censorship of Maplethorpe stuffmatters Jul 2015 #20
Thank you, CTyankee! This is fascinating! And finally, something Mark Twain hates pnwmom Jul 2015 #22
"Wagner's music isn't as bad as it sounds." longship Jul 2015 #29
Wagner is tough...not as easy on the ears as Puccini... CTyankee Jul 2015 #31
Fuck Apple Safari! longship Jul 2015 #34
Puccini is to die for...just lovely. I think I love Tosca best..."vissi d'arte, vissi amore..." CTyankee Jul 2015 #35
Here, from the di Sabata recording, Callas, 1953. longship Jul 2015 #36
I think that Maria Callas was a great singing/actress, Renata Scotto too, Beacool Jul 2015 #39
If you get to Florence, Italy try to take a side trip to Lucca, Puccini's birthplace. CTyankee Jul 2015 #47
And here's my fave "Voi Che Sapete" with Fiorenza Cossotto. longship Jul 2015 #37
Ahhh, Fiorenza Cossotto, good choice. Beacool Jul 2015 #41
Wagner is not for everyone, other than opera cognoscenti. Beacool Jul 2015 #42
I prefer Duke Ellington's recipe. longship Jul 2015 #46
That post wasn't for you because you obviously love opera. Beacool Jul 2015 #62
Tosca is a great first opera. longship Jul 2015 #66
Yes, it is. Beacool Jul 2015 #67
Here in New Haven we once had an opera series every year for a while... CTyankee Jul 2015 #58
Beautiful gloves. Beacool Jul 2015 #63
Manet is one of my favorites for just those reasons. nolabear Jul 2015 #26
Wow, glad I made your afternoon! CTyankee Jul 2015 #27
You and me both. Monet is fine but Manet's use of stark color was brilliant. nolabear Jul 2015 #28
I have always had a "thing" for Manet for some reason... CTyankee Jul 2015 #30
k&r Liberal_in_LA Jul 2015 #32
Wonderful as always. nt awoke_in_2003 Jul 2015 #38
I've seen this painting at the Musee d’Orsay. Beacool Jul 2015 #40
I did see The Origin of the World when I was at the d'Orsay in 2012... CTyankee Jul 2015 #49
Men.......... Beacool Jul 2015 #64
Yeah, I know...silly him... CTyankee Jul 2015 #75
As always, stunning visuals and lyrical narrative Hekate Jul 2015 #43
I have another one ready for two weeks from now and am in the research process CTyankee Jul 2015 #50
Another outstanding art post! CrawlingChaos Jul 2015 #45
Another one coming in two weeks. If you are around, please drop by! CTyankee Jul 2015 #48
Good post edhopper Jul 2015 #51
Victorine wasn't all that attractive, IMO. Her skin color looks unhealthy and CTyankee Jul 2015 #53
I agree edhopper Jul 2015 #55
His still lifes remain my favorites... CTyankee Jul 2015 #56
Great post-- your writing is wonderfully engaging. Gidney N Cloyd Jul 2015 #52
thanks so much...glad you enjoyed it! CTyankee Jul 2015 #54
I went to sleep last night thinking about the differences among the Venus Pudicae... Hekate Jul 2015 #57
Oh, yes...that's it... CTyankee Jul 2015 #59
Absolutely fascinating ismnotwasm Jul 2015 #60
you are welcome...glad to see you like it... CTyankee Jul 2015 #61
OK, now post L'Origine du monde ... 11 Bravo Jul 2015 #68
Beacool beat me to it...see post #40. I give her a lot of credit... CTyankee Jul 2015 #69
Damn, I missed that! Kudos to Beacool for taking the risk. 11 Bravo Jul 2015 #70
Yes, I think I faintly remember that one...good for you! CTyankee Jul 2015 #71
Heh! ismnotwasm Jul 2015 #76
I'm sure they are not...wait and see...it comes around... CTyankee Jul 2015 #77

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,632 posts)
1. Fascinating post, as always, my dear CTyankee!
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:15 PM
Jul 2015

I always enjoy reading your posts on these works of art. And what works they are!

Thank you for furthering my education.

K&R

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
2. Hey, Peggy, nice to see you! Thanks so much...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:20 PM
Jul 2015

It's fascinating...totally useless in practical terms unless one was teaching, but it is fun to do the research....

1monster

(11,012 posts)
21. Totally useless? I don't think so! Bits of info like that are wonderful for impressing
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:50 PM
Jul 2015

Last edited Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:13 PM - Edit history (1)

others if the subject happens to come up on Jeopardy one evening.

Of the two, Titian's is more lush, but I prefer the directness of Manet's. Titian's Venus strikes me as sly but I'm not sure why.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
23. It's all just art history...how this stuff developes from once era to another...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:25 PM
Jul 2015

I am particularly fascinated by it. Why is it "passed down" from artist to artist? What happens to make each one different?

My guess with Titian is that he is reflecting his own era's hypocrisy, much as Manet is doing...

Warpy

(111,273 posts)
7. Manet's nude was very different from the soft core porn of the day
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:37 PM
Jul 2015

because she was so very ordinary, someone wives would have seen in a dressmaker's shop and men would have seen bringing their food and wine to the table at their favorite cafe. She was like the difference between Playboy and Penthouse, the former airbrushed into perfect vinyl and the latter shown with moles and hair.

Also, Manet didn't call her Venus or a wood nymph or any of the other terms classical artists were using for their naked women. She is who she is, ordinary, approachable and available and that is what the people of the day found so threatening. She was someone the average middle class husband could actually get, threatening the sanctity of the home and his peace of mind, mistresses requiring maintenance.

Now, of course, the picture looks pretty tame to us. It's easy to see why Manet caused riots in his own time. He dared to rub people's noses in reality instead of assuaging their fragile nerves with the unattainable perfection of the mythical being.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
10. So very right. But I love the fact that she presents herself on her own terms...
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:50 PM
Jul 2015

she totally upset the "male gaze."

Warpy

(111,273 posts)
12. Yet, he's hinted by the cord at her throat
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 05:57 PM
Jul 2015

that she's still bound in some way.

I've always loved the woman on the right, baby in arms, looking somewhat reproachful. She seems to be warning the woman about the eventual outcome of all that fooling around.

Warpy

(111,273 posts)
14. That's what CW has always said
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:12 PM
Jul 2015

but it's always looked to me like a baby in a flowered wrap. I think Manet probably meant it to be ambiguous, the black area is anatomically impossible to be a part of the figure but is absolutely correct to be an infant's head.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
16. In all my research on this painting I have never encountered that argument...but I
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:14 PM
Jul 2015

see your point and it could make some sense...

 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
65. I don't see it as an infant, even ambiguously.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:39 PM
Jul 2015

You say that "the black area is anatomically impossible to be a part of the figure...." To me it looks like her right hand. Her index, middle, and ring fingers are together, but her little finger is slightly separated from her ring finger. That separation explains the strip of white (where we see the paper or cloth that wraps the flowers).

If the dark area is an infant's head, how did that white strip get there?

Also, when I enlarge the image and look closely, it seems to me that the dark area is slightly lighter toward our right. If it's the woman's right hand, that part is the fingernails, which would be lighter than the rest.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
15. Really amazing post
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:14 PM
Jul 2015

Giving excellent insight into the evolution of this part of our social system.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
72. and I'm not sure how conscious that evolution is but it does happen often in art first...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:46 PM
Jul 2015

almost as if there is a sixth sense that the artist has of his/her time to present something that is different...and new way of looking at the world...

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
73. The best artists are usually rebels
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 07:12 PM
Jul 2015

And while they don't always successfully attack the status quo, you can bet that whenever some change was in the air or needed to be, someone was there hinting at or flatly throwing it out there in their art form.

eppur_se_muova

(36,269 posts)
17. Mark Twain was being sarcastic, as usual.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:23 PM
Jul 2015

He proposed that "it was painted for a bagnio, and it was probably refused because it was a trifle too strong", adding humorously that "in truth, it is a trifle too strong for any place but a public art gallery".


As for Mark Twain’s reaction after having entered the Uffizi Gallery and laid his eyes upon Venus of Urbino, his words are taken terribly out of context. Internet articles quote him constantly as proof of the painting’s offensiveness, but they are missing the larger point. The entire passage needs to be read. Like the humorist and social commentator that he was, Twain’s expression of moral outrage was not literal but feigned to make a point about artistic incarnation.

Twain writes:

If I ventured to describe that attitude there would be a fine howl –but there the Venus lies for anybody to gloat over that wants to –and there she has a right to lie, for she is a work of art, and art has its privileges. I saw a young girl stealing furtive glances at her; I saw young men gazing long and absorbedly at her, I saw aged infirm men hang upon her charms with a pathetic interest. How I should like to describe her –just to see what a holy indignation I could stir up in the world…yet the world is willing to let its sons and its daughters and itself look at Titian’s beast, but won’t stand a description of it in words.

Twain is making the rather astute observation that a written description of such a scene – a woman touching herself – would prompt horror and discomfort, and probably cause the author to be run out of town. But a visual depiction – which carries beautiful, decorative qualities of technique and composition along with the scene – makes a sexy, lascivious painting tolerable, even acceptable, for it is still a glorious, timeless expression of nudity and sexuality despite pushing the boundaries of social mores. It is still celebrated, still embraced. Twain believes that he would never get away with it if he described it in writing and that painters are given more latitude. I think he has a point, don’t you? Processing words is a different mental exercise than processing images. Could it be that one of them makes us squirm more than the other?

https://artmodel.wordpress.com/2010/07/02/mark-twain-looks-at-titians-venu/

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
24. Yes, I do get it. and thanks for that. I am remembering that in the earlier days of
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:31 PM
Jul 2015

our republic, we rejected fine art as "decadent." I see that Twain was trying to break that with what you have revealed. But he said what he said so there is that...

stuffmatters

(2,574 posts)
20. Wonderful post. Ashcroft's "nude" curtaining & Mrs Cheney's NEA censorship of Maplethorpe
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:36 PM
Jul 2015

Are definitely ignorance descendants of this form of intolerance towards the reality of women and universal sexuality.

pnwmom

(108,980 posts)
22. Thank you, CTyankee! This is fascinating! And finally, something Mark Twain hates
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 06:52 PM
Jul 2015

even more than German and Jane Austen.

longship

(40,416 posts)
29. "Wagner's music isn't as bad as it sounds."
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:05 PM
Jul 2015

A Clemens quote upon his leaving the NY Met on a performance of a Wagner opera. He certainly did not like Wagner.


longship

(40,416 posts)
34. Fuck Apple Safari!
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:15 PM
Jul 2015

I have tried to post this response three times, but every time I click to a different tab to look something up, my entry and all the text and links disappear.

What I have tried to post is that I love Puccini. Two of the greatest opera recordings ever made were Puccini.

1. La Boheme - Sir Thomas Beecham conducting. With Jussi Björling and Victoria del Los Angeles. A cast, conductor, and orchestra that was put together at last notice. An amazing performance, certainly the best of this work ever recorded.

2. Tosca - Victor di Sabata conducting. With Callas and Gobbi, it is an incredible performance with Maria Callas in top form. Again, the top of the top.

3. Bach, Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould, 1955. I can listen to this over and over again. The virtuosity and interpretation says that even old Bach would be astounded.

And Mozart? Try Giulini conducting his operas. I recommend Le Nozze di Figaro with Schwarzkoph and Moffo.

If Safari did not utterly suck, I would have links to performances. Just Google Tosca di Sabata and La Böheme Beecham and you'll get them.

BTW, I also love Solti's Wagner's Ring cycle, recorded in the late fifties to sixties. All 19 CDs of it!


My thing is audio arts, your is visual. Somehow we seem to be meeting between. That's good.

Sorry for all the edits. As I said Safari utterly sucks.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
35. Puccini is to die for...just lovely. I think I love Tosca best..."vissi d'arte, vissi amore..."
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:37 PM
Jul 2015

so beautiful...Mozart and his wonderful trouser roles "voi che sapete" is a wonder...but my husband was the music major and not me...I' have had to learn all this from him and have enjoyed it immensely...

longship

(40,416 posts)
36. Here, from the di Sabata recording, Callas, 1953.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 10:45 PM
Jul 2015




Breaks my heart every time. On the other hand, you ought to hear her sing "This is Tosca's kiss" and "Oh Scarpia! Avanti a dio!" As she plunges into the Tiber.

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
39. I think that Maria Callas was a great singing/actress, Renata Scotto too,
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:33 AM
Jul 2015

but neither one had the best instrument and lost their voices before their time. Personally, I prefer the Tosca of her biggest rival, Renata Tebaldi and Montserrat Caballe.

Here's an interesting video of Montserrat talking about Maria, they were friends. It's in Spanish with English subtitles.



Montserrat's full version of the aria. Notice her fantastic breath control and the beauty of her voice. Brava!!!



Renata Tebaldi's version. Callas' biggest rival, although Tebaldi mostly ignored her. She had a magnificent instrument, but when she was not singing she was happy being home with her husband and children. Callas loved to create drama, Tebaldi did not.



CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
47. If you get to Florence, Italy try to take a side trip to Lucca, Puccini's birthplace.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:18 AM
Jul 2015

His house is there, altho it was closed for renovation and repair the very day I visited.

Lucca is a lovely walled town near Florence. No cars allowed within the walls and folks just get around on foot or bikes...they even have their very own golden pasta...

longship

(40,416 posts)
37. And here's my fave "Voi Che Sapete" with Fiorenza Cossotto.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 11:02 PM
Jul 2015

With Carlo Maria Giulini's wonderfully understated orchestral underpinnings. My favorite Le Nozze. Cossotto, playing a character who appears prominently in all the acts, is more important to the comedy than some of the majors. I have seen Von Stada play this role at the Met. But Cossotto nails this one.



And her version of the first act aria, "Non so piu cosa son"


And yes, Cherubino is a pants role, where a mezzo-soprano plays an over-sexed adolescent boy. And in Le Nozze, boy is Cherubino over-sexed. That is why it is such an important role in this comedic farce and why many focus on this performance in this opera. The brat is everywhere!

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
41. Ahhh, Fiorenza Cossotto, good choice.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:48 AM
Jul 2015

Another wonderful singer and one of the best mezzos of her generation.

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
42. Wagner is not for everyone, other than opera cognoscenti.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:04 AM
Jul 2015

People who are dipping their toes in the operatic world tend to prefer lighter fare like bel canto. I like Puccini a lot, but my favorite Italian opera composer is the unsurpassed Giuseppe Verdi. The list of his works is extensive: Aida, Otello, La Traviata, Nabucco, Rigoletto, Un Ballo in Maschera, Ernani, Macbeth and more. All these works are the bread and butter of most opera houses. Along with Bizet's Carmen, Puccini's operas and a few of Rossini's works (Barber of Seville, La Cenerentola and L'italiani in Algeri come to mind).



longship

(40,416 posts)
46. I prefer Duke Ellington's recipe.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 03:08 AM
Jul 2015
If the music sounds good, it is good.

Or as I wrote above when Samuel Clemens was quoted upon leaving the NY Met Opera House after a Wagner opus. "Wagner's music isn't as bad as it sounds."

Myself, I love Wagner's Ring. Especially the old recordings. Solti's is the best, IMHO.

When it comes to music, ones taste is within ones mouth.

I am a huge fan of 50's classical recordings. And of the di Sabata/Callas Tosca. Some may have done Tosca better, but there are few who had both Callas and Tito Gobbi as Scarpia.

Here's the deal. It is not about one individual performance, but how the ensemble works as a whole. There have been many Toscas, and quite a few have been better than Callas. However, her 1953 recording with de Sabata has the distinction of being one of the greatest of the opus because of the cast, orchestra, and conductor just simply work together.

It's like Giulini's Don Giovanni or Beecham's La Böheme with Jussi Björling and Victoria de Los Angeles.

Sometimes forces of nature come together to make a perfect storm.

One can pick at the edges but nobody can credibly claim that the whole is diminished in these iconic recordings.

Try Glenn Gould's 1955 Goldberg Variations, another iconic recording, just like Callas' Tosca, de Los Angeles and Björling's La Böheme. And like Solti's Ring cycle. And like Barbirolli's Elgar Cello concerto (with Jacqueline duPre) and Mahler Fifth.

There are many iconic recordings, performances which go far beyond individual performances but have a ensemble which just works well for a particular work or composer. My list of such things is quite long and goes back decades.

None is perfect. All one requires with music, or any art, is that one is moved by it. And one chooses their favorites.

My best to you.

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
62. That post wasn't for you because you obviously love opera.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:31 PM
Jul 2015

Wagner is an acquired taste and IMO not for people who are not familiar with opera and just started dabbling in the genre. I used to take friends to the Metropolitan Opera who had never been to see one. I always made sure that I picked something Italian (unless Carmen was plying that season). I had success with my friends because every person that I took ended liking the opera and agreed to go back and see another one.

longship

(40,416 posts)
66. Tosca is a great first opera.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 10:38 AM
Jul 2015

It is a fairly simple story. The music is fantastic. It is not too long. The basic plot is easy to understand -- the opera is over when the last character dies.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
58. Here in New Haven we once had an opera series every year for a while...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 03:45 PM
Jul 2015

we were regular subscribers. When I was growing up in Dallas, my aunt took me to operas when they visited. She would have her libretto and follow the opera along. I will always remember those libretti,they were rather elegant...Oh, and I had "opera length gloves" to wear also! Does anybody still remember those gloves?


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-Van04%2BVL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
63. Beautiful gloves.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:33 PM
Jul 2015

I was too young for the opera length gloves, but my mom and aunts would wear them if it was a gala event. People used to dress a lot more to go see an opera than they do now. In summer, I've seen people in shorts attending a matinee performance.

nolabear

(41,986 posts)
26. Manet is one of my favorites for just those reasons.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:49 PM
Jul 2015

As my art history prof said, "Manet didn't paint nudes, he painted nakeds." His subjects, (Victorine Meurant was a favorite and a great painter in her own right) looked frankly at the observer, daring to be people rather than objects. Dejeuner sur L'Herbe was my absolute favorite painting for years. It turned objectification on its ear.

Thanks for the post! Made my afternoon.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
27. Wow, glad I made your afternoon!
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 07:56 PM
Jul 2015

It's a wonderful painting, that's for sure...

I have always felt that Manet was overshadowed by Monet unfairly. I want to see that rectified...hence this post...

nolabear

(41,986 posts)
28. You and me both. Monet is fine but Manet's use of stark color was brilliant.
Fri Jul 24, 2015, 08:00 PM
Jul 2015

The deep blacks and shadows...even that little barmaid doesn't have a fluffy bone in her body.

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
40. I've seen this painting at the Musee d’Orsay.
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:44 AM
Jul 2015

It's a large work and it's impacting. Olympia is looking straight at the viewer. Renaissance nudes of women were mostly allegorical and represented either the Madonna or Greek goddesses. Olympia is a real woman, looking straight at her lover. She's not afraid of her femininity and the effect that it has on men. She owns her sexuality. That in itself was scandalous in an era where men had mistresses, but decent women were expected to be virginal until marriage. Even then, moral women were not supposed to enjoy sex.

Actually, the painting that really shocked Paris was Gustave Courbet's "Origin of the World", painted in 1866.



Anyone who has the opportunity to go to Paris should visit the Musee d’Orsay. IMO, it holds more interest than the Louvre. You'll get to see all the paintings that you had to study in school, plus a lot more. I also love the building, it's a former railroad station.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
49. I did see The Origin of the World when I was at the d'Orsay in 2012...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 08:27 AM
Jul 2015

fabulous back story on this...Courbet's model, Joanne Hiffernan, was James McNeill Whistler's lover at the time. When Whistler saw this painting he never spoke to Courbet again...uh oh...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
50. I have another one ready for two weeks from now and am in the research process
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:02 AM
Jul 2015

now for two upcoming essays. That process is actually fun for me...

CrawlingChaos

(1,893 posts)
45. Another outstanding art post!
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:55 AM
Jul 2015

You did an amazing job of shedding light on Olympia and what makes her so important. Thank you CTYankee - I love all your art posts!

edhopper

(33,587 posts)
51. Good post
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 09:50 AM
Jul 2015

I personally find the Manet less sexually provocative than the Titian or Botticelli to my modern sensibilities.
Recently viewing Sargent's Madame X again, it is strange to see what made public scandals in times past, Khardashians not withstanding.

Artistically, Manet, though thought of as the Father of Impressionism, is much closer in style to the Academic painters of the day than Monet, Renoir, Degas etc... or even Turner for that matter.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
53. Victorine wasn't all that attractive, IMO. Her skin color looks unhealthy and
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 12:37 PM
Jul 2015

she is not classically proportioned. And, of course, she is pretty much emphatically saying she's not terribly interested in "engaging" with the viewer...

I almost included La Maja Desnuda by Goya with this grouping but have decided to make that an essay all its own in the future.

Manet kinda fascinates me. Maybe it has to do with him being on the cusp of old and new...

edhopper

(33,587 posts)
55. I agree
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 01:51 PM
Jul 2015

and that is the big difference between this and the classical paintings. I was referring to his painting technique alone.

His subject matter was also a jump from the academics of his time. And he got more impressionistic in other paintings.

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Hekate

(90,714 posts)
57. I went to sleep last night thinking about the differences among the Venus Pudicae...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 02:51 PM
Jul 2015

Manet's lays her open hand along her thigh, and the others (Titian and Giorgione) cup their fingers into the outer folds of the pubic delta itself. I find the latter much more overtly sexual -- everything says, "I'm here, I'm available to you".

Manet's Olympia, in addition to her direct and challenging gaze, places her hand in a guarding position. The onlooker cannot see that which she guards and he desires -- until she is willing. Above all, that may have been the social norm Manet was transgressing.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
61. you are welcome...glad to see you like it...
Sat Jul 25, 2015, 04:25 PM
Jul 2015

what a portrayal of a strong willed woman!

and isn't it funny that the David doesn't have his hand slapped over his genitals? I can't figure that whole thing out...as Mr. Rogers said "Some are fancy on the inside some are fancy on the outside."

11 Bravo

(23,926 posts)
68. OK, now post L'Origine du monde ...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 04:52 PM
Jul 2015

I dare you.
Don't get me wrong, I absolute enjoy and appreciate your knowledge of, and appreciation for, fine art..
But female nudity has apparently become doublelusungood, and context be damned.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
69. Beacool beat me to it...see post #40. I give her a lot of credit...
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:10 PM
Jul 2015

I will tell you this: if I got disrespected for putting up female nude art, it would be my last art thread on DU and I would look for another place to do them. I put too much time and effort into crafting these essays and I enjoy doing them...but if they aren't appreciated, well, time for me to go elsewhere for them. I can still come here for political commentary and probably still would.

So I agree with you but I also agree with Skinner when he bows to the jury system here. He is basically saying the same thing as I just said. DU is what its members say it is. What I or you or anybody else does about it is also our prerogative and I have just stated mine.

11 Bravo

(23,926 posts)
70. Damn, I missed that! Kudos to Beacool for taking the risk.
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:21 PM
Jul 2015

In any case, I pray that the possible push-back to which you alluded never occurs. Your posts are always scholarly, well-written, and respectful. Their absence would be regrettable.
(Hell, I am an artistic naif, but one of my most gleeful moments on this forum came when I was the first to be able to successfully identify Monte Cassino in one of your splendid "what is this" posts.)

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
71. Yes, I think I faintly remember that one...good for you!
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 05:37 PM
Jul 2015

And as for art, I'm not even doing much in the way of nudes right now anyway (not because of any controversy over nudity, just the way my research goes). I thank you for your kind remarks and hope you return for my future offerings...one of the things that terrifies me is when I am unsure about the religious paintings since I have no religion and have had to depend on the kindness of strangers to help me understand all the "players" in the prodigious supply of religion related works in western art.

But, if my research is correct, art always makes SOMEBODY mad! Just you wait and see...

ismnotwasm

(41,989 posts)
76. Heh!
Sun Jul 26, 2015, 07:30 PM
Jul 2015

My "thing" lately has been street art, my city is fairly poor in it, but I follow blogs that show the most incredible street art all over the world--I'm sure not everybody is excited about some of it

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