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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsShould the homeless be allowed to sleep in their cars?
Should the homeless be allowed to sleep in their cars?A bill making its way through the state legislature would legalize something that, on its face, seems uncontroversial: sleeping in your car.
But for homeless advocates and leaders of some beach communities in Orange County, the bill, AB718, is a point of contention that reflects starkly different worldviews.
People who work with the homeless say the bill would provide a small measure of dignity for people struggling to survive on the streets. They view the practice of issuing fines, or rousting people from their cars, as many local agencies now do routinely, as a form of harassment.
But leaders in Laguna Beach and Dana Point, and several other California cities, say a state law would limit local control and jeopardize residents safety.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/homeless-670180-bill-people.html
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Hoyt
(54,770 posts)because they have no place to go.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Stay in their parking lots overnight. I'd rather homeless go there then on some random street. I think it would be safer overall.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)RichGirl
(4,119 posts)Which is very helpful when traveling across the country...it's hard to find a spot to park them.
840high
(17,196 posts)Grammy23
(5,810 posts)It may be due to community laws or ordinances that don't allow it. You can check with local management for permission to stay. There are also books available (if you are in an RV) that list which ones allow what is called"boon docking". There are usually designated areas for you to park and other rules to follow. But it is a real lifesaver for folks looking for a place to stay overnight.....homeless or just on the road.
rock
(13,218 posts)I believe we have an answer to your question: Automobile Functionality Equality. We should probably let the rich sleep under bridges as well (although it will stink up the place)
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)good one!
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)front desk of a hotel in manhattan, which was a 60-90 minute commute from where I grew up.
I worked a double shift one friday night after driving in to work. I was half way home when I realized I was falling asleep at the wheel. I remembered what my drivers ed teacher told me, so I exited the L.I.E. and drove into the first community, pulled over and took a nap behind the wheel.
I was awoken by a police officer banging on my door and demanding I exit the car. I got out and he took a look at me (I was dressed in a suit as was required by my job) and he told me I had to leave the neighborhood. I told him I was falling asleep at the wheel and he said he did not care.
He sent a falling asleep 17 year old kid to get back on the highway. The older I have gotten the more ridiculous it sounds.
rock
(13,218 posts)"What are you in for Lefty?"
"Sleeping in a car. Now shut up, or I'll give you some of the same!"
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)And my opinion hasn't changed. Effing stupid thing for the police to have done.
rock
(13,218 posts)olddots
(10,237 posts)They should get fucking real as in see past their ignorant greed .
TBF
(32,060 posts)but I'm not going to tell someone what they can do in their own vehicle.
hunter
(38,312 posts)... and in many ways things have gotten much worse.
Very affluent-to-wealthy beach communities can be loathsome places.
A shocking number of homeless people in these communities are locals, abandoned by their own families and communities, or messed-up veterans, not just the stereotypical "hobos" playing the bus-ticket-out-of-town-shuffle to places with survivable winters.
Homelessness is a problem that requires federal solutions, but the politically powerful and wealthy people are often the ones living in the beach houses and supporting police harassment of the homeless while opposing any kind of reasonable programs to support the unemployed, the underemployed, or the unemployable.
In some places they even illegally harass marine mammals and other protected wildlife.
Big money has killed many interesting California beach cities.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)When you talk about the homeless you're dealing with a pretty diverse group of people. When you're talking about the beach cities a lot of the homeless and "homeless" who congregate there are not the most sympathetic bunch.
I grew up right on the beach and the surf bums, other transients and annual riots scared my parents right back to Santa Ana.
hunter
(38,312 posts)The police would harass people parked on the streets and sleeping, so I was given refuge by a kind pastor. I was offered better, but I wasn't ready for that, being in a very "Leave me Alone!" mental state at the time. (My much crazier grandma was sucking up all my own family's energy... I was running away from that mess.)
Later I lived in the backyard shed of a crazy war veteran.
I once got roughed up by the police in Santa Monica for sleeping in my car in a time I wasn't homeless. I'd simply returned from biology field work to Los Angeles earlier than I'd expected, just ahead of the AM commute, but I knew my girlfriend needed all the sleep she could get during final exams and I didn't want to wake her.
At my very worst I never was an aggressive panhandler, or any other kind of trouble. Mostly I tried to be invisible, a skill I'd perfected in middle and high school avoiding bullies who called me "queerbait" as an excuse to beat me up. I quit high school. Fuck that. I've no nostalgia for high school, but a few recurring nightmares.
As a young adult living away from home, local law enforcement soon began to recognize me as someone who was harmless and often an amusing diversion from their usual sordid late night calls of domestic violence. They'd even drive me home, or help me find my clothes on the beach if for some inexplicable reason I'd decided to body surf past midnight without a swimsuit.
These days my wife and I have near daily interactions with the homeless community, and we live within a quarter-hour walk to one of our city's major homeless camps.
There's no reason for things to be as difficult as they are for the people pushing their stuff around in shopping carts and living under tarps, unless it's to scare the overworked, underpaid, and abused working classes.
You don't want to be that guy! It's a vile threat. Crack the whip.
And some of it is just selfishness, assholes who have never understood that "there, but for the Grace of God, go I," assholes who think they pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps. That's bullshit.
Although I am a Christian heretic in many ways, that social justice part of my religious upbringing stuck hard.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)about 25 years ago. I read up on the subject. A friend gave me a Rand Corp. study on homelessness in LA, and Rand is right there on the shore in Santa Monica.
What I remember from that study is that a large percentage of the homeless are homeless temporarily, and that those more chronically homeless often have mental health and/or substance addictions.
And most of them couldn't dream of owning a car.
hunter
(38,312 posts)Once the police tow a car away (often in collusion with a crooked tow company and storage lot) then the car is essentially lost, held by rapidly escalating fines and fees the unemployed, underemployed, underpaid, have no hope of paying.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Than PEOPLE shelter support has among people who live in wealthy neighborhoods.
I just watched the Berkeley City Council, without one wit of shame, ignore lines of citizens asking them to use a healthy budget to shore up community agencies and help the people who were struggling in this time of unprecedented housing crisis. What did they do? They voted to put the money in a "cookie jar" for some future emergency (that might affect all those mansions up in the Hills) instead. But a couple of the Council Members from richer districts had special feelings for the Animal Shelter, so they *did* pass a special measure providing extra funding for the Animal Shelter.
That's right - cute puppies before people!
Later that evening, there was an attempt to sneak through some homeless harassment laws. I say "sneak" because because it was last on the docket, the Council had refused to hold it over, and they had replaced the measure with completely new language that very day. Literally every political trick in the book was used when for when a politician wants to get a measure passed without people actually agreeing to it.
I had the pleasure of seeing this Citizen's response:
For once the City Council actually was shamed into at least holding the matter over for proper discussion.
But seriously: the super rich do care about their pets a heck of a lot more than people. And they don't care who sees their Council reps voting for that. Their hatred of the poor is a matter of public record.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)The wealthiest, too.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)Along with a party that adheres to it and bullies the sane (Democratic) party.
Conservative Protestantism is influenced by Calvinism, which gave the idea that prosperity was a sign of one attaining salvation, making everyone fear that they were to be seen as eternally damned if they were unprosperous. To conservative protestants, the poor are poor because their fate has been preordained by God as eternal damnation (due to the predestination religious theory.) This is especially useful as an excuse for America's rich to not care about the poor.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)I have never seen it put into words so well. Here in Detroit, we thank our ultrarich friends in Grand Rapids cough DeVoss cough Prince and their employees in Lansing from throughout the more conservative regions of the state for that very tradition which makes life that of an open-air prison. Thanks to them and the rightwing nutjobs from the Mackinac Policy Conference who believe the crapola, Michigan's a test bed for the future.
Tie religion to one's politics, and it's good night democracy and hello, feudalism!
Quackers
(2,256 posts)truckers do it all the time on the sides of roads, parking lots, rest stops, and anywhere you can fit the rig. I've seen a few back into wooded areas off the side of the road.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)there were great stretches of land across from the school where hundreds of students were sleeping in their vans. Neither the police nor campus security bothered them. Ten years later, the police started really cracking down. One day I came out of the Studio Cafe after listening to music (located on the Balboa Peninsula in Newport Beach) and went to my car. I wasn't drunk and I wasn't sleeping. I shut my eyes to listen to an 8 track tape in my car. A policeman was immediately there and said he would arrest me if I didn't open my eyes and drive on or left the car.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Certainly is not allowed today
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)let them live in tents and campers. Give them an address and a payphone.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)For being known as the business that allows parking lot camping
betterdemsonly
(1,967 posts)labour bans.
RichGirl
(4,119 posts)...should be allowed to sleep in their cars...while their cars are parked in one of those golf courses that Trump said only wealthy people are allowed to use. They...homeless...should be able to build a campfire and roast marshmallows. Maybe pitch a tent. And use the country club restroom to do their business.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,190 posts)"But leaders in Laguna Beach and Dana Point, and several other California cities, say a state law would limit local control and jeopardize residents safety."
Nevermind that the homeless are far more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)It has let property owners jack up the cost of housing so high that some people have a choice of either living in their cars or just moving out of their city (or possibly California altogether.)
It's not fair that California cities just get to kick out people who are California natives just because they can't afford the cost of living.
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)It's as simple as putting 2 hour parking time limits, permit parking systems, or no parking between 3 am to 5 am signs.
MADem
(135,425 posts)AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)The streets are public property. A person should have the right to use their property as they see fit, given that it doesn't directly infringe on the rights of other people. Being afraid or offended at someone should not be a justifiable reason to keep someone from sleeping in their car.
Besides, how about people who get tired driving late at night and need to pull over? I've had to do this several times, driving at 1 or 2 am and just too tired to continue driving, having to pull over somewhere to sleep.
MADem
(135,425 posts)she's twitching the curtains in fear because she sees shapes in a vehicle outside her front door.
That would enable police to patrol regularly to be sure people aren't attacked or bothered, too.
In many cities, if you don't have a neighborhood decal you can end up with a ticket, especially in winter!
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Maybe she's been burgled a few times, and she's fearful of it happening again. How is she to know if that carload of strangers is homeless, or thieves?
A lot of elderly people don't have the money to leave where they are living, even when the neighborhood changes.
It's safer for people to gather where there's community, where people can help if there's a problem--it's why the WALMART camper program is so popular. The police know that there are people there, and they'll go by every now and again to make sure that noone is messing with them. The lots are lit, and safer.
Safety in numbers, too.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Rounding up homeless people, whether it's under a bridge or in a wal-mart parking lot, is bullshit. Oh, but it's for their own good? Where have I heard that happy horse shit before?
Bah.
If people are offended by homelessness, then they can work on stamping out homelessness. Until then, public streets belong to the public, just as a person's car belongs to a themselves.
When did we start making the rules around Gladys' goddamned sensibilities?
MADem
(135,425 posts)My mileage varies.
I'd rather see them in a well lighted place where they can yell for help if they get in a jam and someone will hear them, understand their situation, and respond. That would not be the case in a neighborhood setting on a poorly lit street.
So yeah--BAH. It has nothing to do with "offended," it has to do with safety and understanding.
And you plainly know nothing about the elderly. They age, they lose a spouse, their incomes don't keep pace with inflation, they struggle to stay in their homes, and they become fearful--your lack of compassion for THEM is noted.
You'll get there one day--I hope people are nicer to you than you apparently can manage for them.
Not. Nice.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Who decides such an objective standard?!? Gladys?
What justification does the government have to restrict what one does on a public street in your own vehicle?
What harm is averted? Gladys' vapors?
Fuck Gladys's sensibilities. Her irrational fears don't justify infringement of my rights.
A person sleeping in their own car neither picks my pocket nor breaks my nose.
MADem
(135,425 posts)As you make your way to work in the morning, you'll smell the pee and slip on plastic bags of feces as you make your way to your car. That'll get your morning off nice and bright, eh?
WALMARTS are often open 24 hours a day, and they have in them places to shit. Gee, and the lots are brightly lit so people will feel safe going to take a dump at three in the morning.
It's not Gladys' 'sensibilities.' She has a right to live without being afraid of someone she doesn't know with no ties to her neighborhood who may be homeless, but who also may be a thief, laying in wait outside her door.
Right now, vagrancy and other laws do limit your rights to sleep in your car, and poop and pee at the end of Gladys' driveway--but WALMART will welcome you, in a safe environment, and let you use their crappers, too.
And you don't know who that person in the car is--so how do you "know" what they'll do to you? Answer--you don't.
Remain obtuse. It doesnt make you look very good, but knock yourself out.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)For nine months, I had a father and son in my spare bedroom and couch.
You can be a Gladys, afraid of every knock and shudder in the night. Me? I see friends I haven't met yet.
There is no such 'right to not be afraid'.
You have a right to pursue happiness, it's not guaranteed.
This does explain your position on some other topics, though.
Very enlightening.
MADem
(135,425 posts)What a sport!! You're not creating an equivalent scenario with your little tale of Katrina altruism, there.
Of course, anyone parked on your street is more than welcome to ring your bell at two a.m. if they need to drop the kids off at the pool, hmmmm? Because you're so RAH RAH about this issue, you'll open your home and all!
Yeah, right.
And your attempt to label me a Gladys demonstrates what a big fat fail your argument is, here. The fact of the matter is that Gladys has the law on her side, and you, telling people to park and poop all over the neighborhood, do not. She can pick up the phone, tell the cops there's someone in a car in front of her house, and they'll come and check it out. Your homeless buddy ends up in the shits, because you want to sit in your nice warm home and tell that poor person that they have "rights" to park wheresoever they'd like, vagrancy, loitering, and parking regulations notwithstanding--because YOU said so!
What's very enlightening is that you'd recommend that a homeless person stay in an unsafe, darkened environment in a strange neighborhood where the person might draw unwanted attention to themselves, with no toilet facilities "becuz freedumb" or something, rather than parking in a place where they're safer, like a full service rest stop or a church parking lot/Salvation Army that has opened their facilities to homeless people, or one of those WALMARTS with their well-lit lots and available indoor plumbing.
Very enlightening, indeed! And yeah--This does explain your position on some other topics, though. You don't "care" as much as you might like to think you do, apparently. You sure don't care about the safety and security of homeless people, that's obvious.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)In the winter I also do blanket drives (and make about 10 crock pot pot roasts), and in the summer I drive around and hand out water.
Ooh, now it's an 'unsafe' neighborhood. *very scary*
We should chivvy those homeless people somewhere else, because it's not safe.. for them.
Riiiiiiight.
You can set those goal posts down any time you know. You're the one moving them.
Poor Gladys isn't afraid of scary burglars, she's afraid for the poor homeless fellow sleeping in his car.
Go ahead, pull the other one, it's got bells on.
MADem
(135,425 posts)you're a stakeowner, but you aren't.
THIS is how you manage a program for vehicle dwellers--you provide them safe, secure parking facilities and support. You work to transition them to subsidized housing, to find jobs, to secure welfare assistance, etc. as required.
Read and learn:
http://www.dreamsforchange.org/services/safe-parking/
http://www.resourcehouse.org/win211/King/topics/Basic_Needs/Housing__Shelter/Emergency_Shelter/Homeless_Shelter/Homeless_Safe_Parking_Programs/programs.aspx
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/program-to-help-homeless-living-in-cars-off-to-slow-steady-start/
http://www.svdp.us/what-we-do/homeless-services/overnight-parking-program/
http://freshgrok.com/satarah/SVdP/overnight-parking.php5
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Poor Gladys. She's gone from 'twitching the curtains in fear, alone and afraid' to a social champion!
Did you ever consider that the homeless person in their car in your neighborhood might already be a member of your community, not someone in need of community?
How very 'US v Them' of you.
Aristus
(66,369 posts)It's not an optimal place to sleep. But it beats sleeping rough, exposed to the elements, vulnerable to people ready to roll you for money, medications, or just because, or at the very least, getting "move along"-ed by the cops.
Why the hell do we constantly make things even more difficult for the most vulnerable of us all, the homeless?
Warpy
(111,261 posts)but probably a lot of the objection stems from the lack of public restrooms leading to urination and defecation in alleys and worse. The cure is easy, open up municipal parking lots after the courts and offices have closed, provide porta potties adjacent to them.
That never seems to occur to people in power, who can only think about how to get rid of them instead of providing services for them.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Goddamned rich pricks can stuff their 'local control'.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)I was referred by a church to go to a rest stop surrounded by woods with a highway patrol office there. There was a restroom and no one bothered me.
I had a dog and cat with me but the fall gales were so cold I kept waking and turned the vehicle on to run with the heat on. I saw a lot of people who were going to work in the morning get up and change clothes to go to work ij the rest room baths.
After being there a week a patrol woman came and let me know it was not allowed to stay there permanently. I let her know that my rental would be available soon - no hassle at all.
I left the day they said I could move in but it was good to have the highway patrol there to keep us safe and no troubles.
It seems CA could do the same. The city I grew up in had a park around the city hall, built during the Great Depression. Homeless people were allowed to camp there until they could move on. The mayor said that was the right thing to do. That was downtown, with the trees overhead and many benches built there. There were water fountains and lots of grass and public bathrooms in the city hall building.
The atgitude toward the poor and homeless in this nation is cruel. This is not what I grew up with. It was during Reagan that they took the public housing projects away, closed hospitals and people were living on the streets again. Half a century of a measure of decency wiped out by him and his friends.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)etc.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)How can they stop people from sleeping in their cars? Unless you're doing something else that's illegal, and it's your car, you can sleep. As long as you're not sleeping while the car is moving...
MADem
(135,425 posts)things of that nature. NIMBY is a common issue. Some people are discreet and can hide their presence. Others have difficulty, especially if there are children involved.
Some communities have programs where charities (churches, often as not) find places for people to park--construction sites with porta potties where a vehicle or two will reduce theft/vandalism, church parking lots, etc. And of course, lots of WALMARTS allow people to park/sleep.
The charitable programs often include help getting subsidized housing (it sometimes takes a while to move up the list) and help with job search and other services, as needed.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)The real problem with poverty is how impossible the system makes it for you to stabilize your situation - which you realistically have to do before anyone will hire you. This is especially true for older workers who already fighting agism and the "over-qualified" yet "no current experience in the workplace" situation. This woman's situation says it all:
http://invisiblepeople.tv/blog/2010/03/sandy-homeless-berkley/
The cops in Berkeley just astound me. They will tell homeless people they have to move or get a fine (which they won't be able to pay) or go to jail (which will destroy their eligibility for other services that could help them get out of their situation) - yet they don't give them any place to move to. It would be one thing if cops got on the radio and said, "Here, go to this shelter." But the cops don't do that, because they know the shelters are full. There is no place to go. No one is offering vouchers for staying in motels or money - people are just told to move or else.
The politicians have started to take the same wingnut attitude. Recently they tried to ram through some laws that criminalize homeless people for sleeping, having possessions, and going to the bathroom when public bathrooms were locked...basically punishing the poorest of the poor for the City's own public policy failures. The City's solution was to harass homeless people until they "moved on".
Some of our Council Members do realize it's a regional problem and the other cities in the region aren't doing their share. But that needs to be dealt with by talking to the administrations of those other cities, not by torturing homeless people they run away and become someone else's problem. The other cities will just do the same thing until those same homeless people come running back! The whole situation is ridiculous.
The basic problem is people need to get basic needs met: food, shelter, etc. To do this they need a regular source of income. If you want people to have this regular source of income via a job, you have to make sure they have access to jobs fairly quickly, not send them through endless treadmills of "job readiness" programs that only gets poverty bureaucrats paid and sucks away the time and energy of poor people. When the problem is a vast pool of unemployed people, the solution is to get them jobs. If the problem is those people are still poor because you got them low quality jobs, you need to make sure they have access to affordable housing. End of story. All the rest of what is going on is a lot poverty bureaucracy red tape crap that has been going on for years and years and years which should be redefined as some sort of psychological torture and needs to stop.