Highlighting less than progressive positions on gun control which Sanders appears to welcome

[bigtree]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by petronius (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Today we saw the airing of an ad by a pro-O'Malley group pointing to a Sanders vote against the Brady bill (a position which he reversed a year after the massacre at an elementary school in Newtown, Conn., in 2012) and a vote against holding gun manufacturers responsible for gun violence.

The charge behind the ad is that Sen. Sanders's position on guns isn't as progressive as Martin O'Malley's own unapologetic support of gun legislation he helped pass in Maryland, making his state the strictest in the nation on gun control. The laws he shepherded through the Md. legislature and signed include:

- Ban on magazines (an ammunition storage and feeding device) that hold more than 10 bullets;
- Ban on 45 types of semiautomatic (weapons that reload automatically but fire only once when the trigger is pulled) rifles, classifying them as assault weapons;
- Requirement that people seeking to buy any gun other than a hunting rifle or shotgun to obtain a license, submit fingerprints to police, undergo a background check and pass classroom and firing-range training;
- Ban on any rifle that has two of three characteristics — 1) Folding stock, which makes the weapon more compact for storage or transport; 2) Grenade launcher; or 3) Flash suppressor, which protects the eyesight of the shooter in low-light shooting conditions.

While there's a good argument that this might not be as politically advantageous a move as the O'Malley group might think, it's not an untrue argument. Most of the response to the ad today point to wide support from second-amendment hawks who don't represent or support efforts made by liberals in Congress and elsewhere to limit the ownership of assault weapons.

Sanders has also voted against forcing states to respect concealed-carry permits issued by other states - to allow people to carry hidden guns around without a permit.

Indeed, in Sander's own state of Vermont, in gaining his first seat in the House, the senator once used his less than liberal record on gun control as a wedge against Peter Smith, the Republican incumbent he defeated, who supported a ban on assault weapons.

Although Sanders recently sided with the Obama administration, voting for federal bans on assault weapons and high-capacity clips, his rhetoric on the issue contradicts the sentiment behind such legislation. In 2013 Sanders was making an argument similar to the one he made in an NPR interview which aired on the same day as the ad by the pro-O'Malley pac where he stated that, “If you passed the strongest gun control legislation tomorrow, I don’t think it will have a profound effect on the tragedies we have seen.”

He echoed that ambivalence to gun control in the NPR interview, stating, "I think that urban America has got to respect what rural America is about, where 99 percent of the people in my state who hunt are law abiding people."

"If anyone thinks that gun control itself is going to solve the problem of violence in this country, you're terribly mistaken. So, obviously, we need strong, sensible gun control and I will support it. But some people think it's going to solve all of our problems. It is not," he said.

"I can understand that if some Democrats or Republicans represent an urban area where people don't hunt, don't do target practice; they're not into guns. But, in my state, people go hunting and people do target practice. Talking about cultural divides in this country, you know, it is important for people in urban America to understand that families go out together and kids go out with their parents and they hunt and they enjoy the outdoors and that is a lifestyle that should not be condemned."

Those comments were obviously aimed at the stance Gov. O'Malley had taken in the wake of the Charleston shooting where he declared how "pissed" he was at "special interests like the NRA." His statement was a courageous reflection of his successful effort to address the issue of gun violence in his own state:

I'm pissed that we’re actually asking ourselves the horrific question of, what will it take? How many senseless acts of violence in our streets or tragedies in our communities will it take to get our nation to stop caving to special interests like the NRA when people are dying?

I'm pissed that after working hard in the state of Maryland to pass real gun control—laws that banned high-magazine weapons, increased licensing standards, and required fingerprinting for handgun purchasers—Congress continues to drop the ball.

It's time we called this what it is: a national crisis.

I proudly hold an F rating from the NRA, and when I worked to pass gun control in Maryland, the NRA threatened me with legal action, but I never backed down.

So now, I'm doubling down, and I need your help. What we did in Maryland should be the first step of what we do as a nation. The NRA is already blaming the victims of yesterday's shooting for their own deaths, saying they too should have been armed. Let's put an end to this madness and finally stand up to them. Here are some steps we should be taking:

1. A national assault weapons ban.

2. Stricter background checks.

3. Efforts to reduce straw-buying, like fingerprint requirements.

Not one of the GOP presidential candidates comes even close to being right on this issue—and some actually believe that things like background checks are excessive, or that high-capacity magazines are a basic right. Well, I believe we all have a basic right to safe schools, safe places to worship, and safe streets.

Bernie Sanders' response is basically a strawman, suggesting that 'urban' advocates of gun control, like O'Malley' are somehow against responsible gun ownership and use. Nothing in the O'Malley gun control stance and record indicates anything of the sort. Nowhere has he 'condemned' gun owners for 'hunting' or 'target practice' as Sanders insinuated.

Moreover, the line Bernie Sanders is attempting to draw between his own equivocation on gun control and liberal efforts over the years isn't progressive, it's more of a libertarian view; something which is more in line with his 'independent' status in Congress, rather than the Democratic banner he's running under in this campaign. That may well be accommodating to moderate and conservative views on gun control, but it's hardly a progressive stance' - well out of line with his supporters' insistence that his politics are unabashedly progressive. It's not only fair game to highlight his less progressive position on gun control, it's a wedge argument which Bernie Sanders appears to welcome in this campaign.


watch the commercial:

[marble falls]

1. If this is as bad as Bernie gets, my vote is still his.

[bigtree]

5. I have no doubt that this won't hurt his candidacy

...if one's main concern with his position on gun control is how it affects him politically.

[HERVEPA]

2. Ridiculously long and rambling post, but

This part is total bullshit.

"...Moreover, the line Bernie Sanders is attempting to draw between his own equivocation on gun control and liberal efforts over the years isn't progressive, it's more of a libertarian view; something which is more in line with his 'independent' status in Congress..."

Bernie Sanders' independent status has zero to do with libertarianism.
That's total crap, and the poster knows It, or is ignorant of the meaning of libertarian.

[bigtree]

3. not bullshit on his gun positions over the years

...read: His gun positions are more libertarian than progressive.

Nice try at deflection though.

[HERVEPA]

16. Yes, bull.

Your post reads that his independent status is in line with libertarianism, not qualified by his gun stance.

If you didn't mean it that way, you need to write more clearly.

I'm guessing you were just trying to smear him with the libertarian title though.

I am for Bernie, will certainly vote for Hillary if she is a nominee, and don't feel the need to smear her to make a point for Bernie.

[bigtree]

17. I'll revisit that line

I did, and it clearly states that his position on guns is a libertarian one, further arguing that his position is more libertarian than Democratic - libertarian being more in line with an independent status than a Democratic one; in effect, straddling that fence on this issue of gun control. You can argue against that, but I stand by it on this issue.

[HERVEPA]

20. I agree about your take on his position on that issue, but no, that's not how it reads.

[demmiblue]

4. Just an FYI:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10134641

I wonder if #3 is not working.

[demmiblue]

11. Nope, just checked by selecting the 'Start a Discussion' button.

Quite an announcement/warning, I must say!

[herding cats]

6. Have you seen the GD Primaries forum?

I only just saw it myself. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1251

The SOP in GD has now changed, and it is now forbidden to post in GD about the Democratic primaries.

The General Discussion: Primaries forum is now open. Here's what you need to know.

Just letting you know before someone alerts on your post.

[Bernie 2016]

7. tl;dr but I did notice something..

O'Malley proudly touts an F rating from NRA - guess who else has the same rating? Bernie Sanders.

[bigtree]

10. actually, WaPo calls it a 'D' rating

...but if you're relying on the NRA to define our candidates' stances on gun control, you're not going to get a fair opinion on what's a progressive position, or even a correct one.

[Bernie 2016]

14. I'm not. I'm even less interested in gun rights...

In fact, I'm of an opinion that all guns should be melted down and made into something less deadly, like pieces of building material for the affordable.

And all the cops should use less than lethal forces available to them, like TASER or beanbags.

That's why I keep it to myself, and respect the Second Amendment. I've handled guns and know how to use them, but own none. I choose to live that way. I'm an urban dweller and there's enough violence in the area.

[HooptieWagon]

8. Bernie has my primary vote.

But the Clinton minions are rapidly seeing to it that she'll get little left support in the GE should she win the nomination. Her (and their) arrogance will insure a Dem bloodbath. Hopefully that puts a long overdue stake through the Third Way.

[bigtree]

12. kind of a weak defense

...I'm not a 'Clinton minion,' nor does that nonsense address this issue at all.

[Fumesucker]

9. The single biggest problem with gun control

Pro gun control voters are not generally single issue voters while anti gun control voters very often are in fact focused almost entirely on opposition to gun control.

That's entirely aside from the fact that gun control is going to fall hardest on the poor and minorities and particularly on poor minorities.

[bigtree]

15. politically it's not a very winning issue, I'll admit

...it's a correct one I believe.

The argument that gun control falls heaviest on minorities is a curious one, given the opposition by the NRA and conservatives who don't represent the interests of minorities in any way, shape, or form.

[Fumesucker]

18. It'll be just like the drug war and who gets the short end of that stick?

People with money, mostly whites, will just dot the eyes and cross the tees to be legal weapon holders. You already admitted in the OP that confiscation is not a goal so there will be guns around and the rich mostly white folks will be the ones with the (legal) guns. Poor and minorities will continue to be subjected to extra special police attention right on through the justice system but now guns will be even a worse crime with longer sentences and more enforcement.

It's going to be the same police enforcing the gun laws as the rest of the laws, why would you think they will suddenly switch their attention from poor minorities to rich whites?

[NightWatcher]

13. So, you saw the STOP sign before you posted this asking if it was Primary related?

You then said No, and posted it anyway.

This has been mentioned all day by numerous opponents of Sanders'.

[seveneyes]

19. Bullshit is everywhere

[petronius]

21. Locking. This primary-related thread is more in keeping with the SoP of the

newly-repurposed 'General Discussion : Primaries' forum. Please consider a repost there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1251

See this announcement for details.

Thank you!