There's no such thing as "Transracial"

[MrScorpio]

It's always been called "passing."

In Ms. Rachel's case, we can call it "perpetrating a fraud."

She could have been a perfectly fine ALLY of people of color without trying to impersonate one of us. There's nothing wrong with being a white ally and there has never been a requirement to hate one's own white skin in order to fight against white supremacy.

Like her life, this woman has only floated false narratives over what needs to be done in the struggle to fight injustice.

I know very little about her motivation, but I can only judge her actions. Is her heart in the right place? I have no idea.

Were her methods wrong? Yes, they were.

If she couldn't be honest about herself, how can she be expected to be trusted? She's yet to come clean, even after her fraud has been exposed.

Now we're stuck with this phony "transracial" ideology. Something that even white people who have been fully raised in black culture would never claim.

[yeoman6987]

1. As I said in another thread, I am waiting for studies to see.

This is very new and we'll have to see how it progresses. Had she not said that she felt black at age 5, I'd probably not wait for studies. It will definitely be interesting to see what the results from experts are. I for one will not make my final decisions on opinions.

[missingthebigdog]

32. She FELT black??

I'm sorry, but how do you FEEL black?

I have just always assumed that, absent being treated differently, black people and white people feel pretty much the same.

Please educate me if I am wrong on this....

[yeoman6987]

49. Well you'll have to ask her. I don't have those feeling when I was young

Well have to wait on the experts. They will discuss after evaluating the situation.

[joeybee12]

36. She felt so black at age five, in her 20's she sued Howard

University for discriminating against her because she was white.

[goldent]

66. She lost the lawsuits

So maybe it was a matter of "it you can't beat them, join them"

[joeybee12]

68. That could explain it!

I just think she has a lot of emotional and mental issues she needs help with.

[malaise]

79. ROFL

The woman has issues.

[joeybee12]

81. She really does need help...nt

[Chemisse]

77. I suspect she is a habitual liar.

I would not take her word for that - not at all.

[Raine1967]

107. That's kinda weird.

When I was five, I didn't feel white.

What i remember around that time was a sense of my family's european heritage. IT was mostly through food and celebrating my grandparents country of origin.


I don't remember feeling white.

[Person 2713]

151. Were you in an environment where everybody was white?

[Avalux]

130. It's simple.

Gender is biological - so being transsexual is legitimate. Race is a social construct, just as religion and class are social constructs - they are interaction rules a particular society follows, and they were made by people to control us.

The idea of being "transracial" is bogus, just as "transreligious" and "transclass" are bogus.

There isn't a need to do studies.

[prayin4rain]

134. Then anybody can identify as any non-real race, religion or class

that they wish. Would a person be chastised for identifying with Buddhism early in life and Hinduism later in life?

[Avalux]

137. Certainly not. Identification isn't the issue - masquerading and lying is the issue.

The problem is Dolezal's pathology and her absurd reasoning. She stated in her interview that her sons are black, so she couldn't be a white woman raising black sons. It's ridiculous that she's say that as an excuse for pretending to be black.

[prayin4rain]

138. I thought your first post

said that black and white wasn't real and that belonging to a race is analogous to belonging to a religion. If she felt that she could raise her sons better as a Hindu, she'd convert, right? Whether you agree with her decision that she could do a better job as a Hindu, is besides the point.

Maybe I misread your first post.

[Avalux]

142. You got my first post correct.

There's nothing wrong with a person identifying with a different racial culture of the society in which they live, and adapting that lifestyle if that's what they prefer. Skin color shouldn't matter because we're all people and we should be able to act and look however we wish. Tanning the skin darker and wear the hair in a black style as Dolezal has done is ok too.

What I have a problem with is all the lies and attempts to legitimize a fake medical condition to justify the lies.

[prayin4rain]

143. I hadn't heard about a fake medical condition?

And if I was raised Buddhist and later converted to Hindu, nobody would say I was lying about converting to Hindu because I was raised Buddhist, right?

Of course, I guess if I told people that I'd always been Hindu, then I'd be lying. But, she seems like, given her family strife, she REALLY wanted to forget her past. But still, yeah, lying.

[NuclearDem]

2. I can't believe this keeps having to be said.

[Solly Mack]

3. K&R

[Puzzledtraveller]

4. I'm with you on this.

[cali]

5. Excellent.

I think you'll like this piece which says much the same thing with some fascinating examples of the "one drop rule".

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/16/opinion/rachel-dolezals-harmful-masquerade.html

[MrScorpio]

11. Excellent and definitive article nt

[malaise]

88. This is key!

Racial identity cannot be fluid as long as the definition of whiteness is fixed. And historically, the path to whiteness has been extremely narrow.

The “one-drop rule,” which, for much of American history, legally defined as black anyone with a black ancestor, was used to keep black people from adopting whiteness.

[wendylaroux]

6. All I know

is that if I have to see her gd face one more time,I'm throwing my laptop thru a window.

[Freelancer]

7. Super wrong in many ways -- still brazen and amazing!

As she's leaving the Spokane NAACP with her desk plant and cardboard box, and the reporters stick the microphones in her face, I would love it if she looked straight into the camera, and said "I WOULD HAVE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT, TOO, IF IT WEREN'T FOR YOU MEDDLING KIDS!!!"

(That's a Scooby Doo reference, don't cha know).

LOL!

[H2O Man]

8. Recommended.

Very well said.

[guillaumeb]

9. Really well said. eom

[Warpy]

10. It's too bad the discussion wasn't more about race versus culture.

Misguided people in the last century used to remove tribal kids from their homes and adopt them out to "more stable" (aka richer) white couples. What they ended up with were brown people raised in white culture who didn't know where they belonged, physically unwelcome in white culture and culturally unwelcome in their tribes.

The result was hard enough on the children that tribes have sued and managed to stop the practice of adopting their children out of the tribe.

In Dolezal's case, she was brought up with adopted black brothers who likely found their way into what we think of as black culture in school and she followed along with them. I don't think anything about this case is clear cut enough to call it outright fraud. Cultural lines were so blurred that a lot of people were able to discount her appearance, including herself.

Yes, it is offensive to black folks who could have done the job and probably should have been given the job, but I doubt her motives were malicious. She's notorious and unemployed now and that should be enough punishment to satisfy anyone.

[MohRokTah]

13. According to what I've read, she represented herself as African American on applications.

IF so, that is fraud.

[Warpy]

15. Is DNA the only determinant of who a person is?

Think very, very carefully before you answer that.

[MohRokTah]

17. Race is physical

She claims to be African American but at the end of the day when being African American becomes uncomfortable, she is still white.

African Americans do not have that luxury or privilege.

She is not African American and "transracial" is just another made up word so that privileged white people do not have to take responsibility for their actions.

[Warpy]

18. So is gender.

However, you're completely discounting culture, which means you either didn't read my whole post or didn't comprehend it.

Some AAs have had the privilege and a few have used it.

[gollygee]

25. Only very light African American people could

and if they were found out, they wouldn't get defended the way Rachel Dolezal is. Historically, things haven't gone well for African Americans who tried to "pass." And that's what it has always been considered. Passing.

Suddenly a white woman wants jobs where it would benefit her to be African American, and SHE is able to change race. But all the people of color who have been discriminated against can't do that. They just have to deal.

[zeemike]

22. But so is gender.physical...right down to the DNA in every cell in the body.

So that would seem to say that transgender is another made up word too...is that what you are saying?

[MohRokTah]

26. Gender goes beyond the physical DNA structure, race does not.

A black person cannot decide they are now white and get away with it. In fact, attempting to do so would cause all sorts of problems for them.

You are attempting to compare apples to bicycles.

[zeemike]

33. So you can feel like the opposite sex but not like you are black.

Because even if you don't look like a woman you are one if you feel like one, but you cannot feel black if you don't look that way?
But you were the one who ruled it out by biology not me.

[MohRokTah]

34. A white person who self identifies as black is the perfect example of white privilege.

Black people cannot reciprocate.

[zeemike]

41. There is nothing to stop them from self identifying as white of feeling that way

The fact that people won't accept them as that has no bearing on it...and a obviously white person can self identify as black too and receive the same treatment...would you call that black privilege?...because only they can be black and do cool black things?

That argument fails any test of logic.

[MohRokTah]

44. OH YES THERE FUCKING IS!!!!

[zeemike]

54. When the yelling begins I quit.

[MohRokTah]

60. Well fucking good.

My nephew is multi-racial, but society will identify him as black.

And he will experience systemic racism because of that fact. He can't get cutesy and "self identify as white". He's going to grow up and live as a black man with all the negative connotations that carries. He can't simply stop being black when things get racist, like Rachel Whosits can, and has done on multiple occasions.

So anybody claiming there is any legitimacy to a white person "self identifying as black" I call down all the BULLSHIT on them as exists because these white people are too privileged to EVER be black,

[gollygee]

61. The fact that people won't accept them has everything to do with it

Race was created by society to give an excuse for discrimination. It only exists because we have discrimination and to give a way to discriminate. If you can't stop yourself from being discriminated against, you can't change your race.

[zeemike]

89. Discrimination was created not race.

Man did not create biology biology created men.
And no one can change their biology despite what they may think or how they feel or act.
You cannot erase biology only discrimination.

[gollygee]

97. Race is not biological

You should watch a movie called Race: THe Power of an Illusion. There's a short version on youtube.

[markpkessinger]

42. Not so . . .

Biological sex is physical, but 'gender' encompasses not only biological sex, but also hormonal composition and intrinsic, psychological gender identity. For most people (although not all), their biological sex is fairly discrete. When it comes to hormonal composition, we all have both 'male' and 'female' hormones, and the precise mixture of the twp varies from person to person. AS for psychological gender identity, again, for most of us, it is consistent with our biological sex. But for some, there is a conflict between their gender identity and their biological sex.

There is, however, no such thing as intrinsic racial identity. The very concept of 'race' is entirely socially constructed by our surrounding culture, and to the extent one even has a racial identity, it is one that is externally imposed on a person by his or her culture. We are identified as belonging to one race or another primarily by how we are physically perceived by the surrounding culture. Ms. Dolezal's real offense lay in the fact that she appropriated the outward trappings of a culturally constructed identity which was not authentically her own. What a transgendered person does in adopting the outward appearance of the gender he or she identifies with is to express his or her intrinsic, authentic gender identity. Ms. Doleaal had the option to revert to her white identity at any time, if she had chosen to, simply by shedding the outward appearance of being African American. A transgendered person, however, does not shed his or her intrinsic identity when he or she or she sheds the appearance of the opposite sex.

[Spazito]

52. Excellent post

[DeadLetterOffice]

55. Well stated. n/t

[gollygee]

62. +1

These discussions are maddening. I don't even understand how people are conflating these two issues.

[stage left]

64. well stated.nt

[zeemike]

98. How do we know there is no such thing as intrinsic racial identity?

Take a white child and raise it in a black village and tell me they will not identify with that culture and race.

Jt is just strange to me that people say you should be what you want to be, but not that...that is forbidden and some call it an offense...it is rationalized as being right and wrong for some reason.

[Major Nikon]

154. How do we know there's no such thing as intrinsic disabled identity?

Or non-pregnant people who identify as pregnant?

Or young people who identify as old?

Or people from Guatemala who identify as Swedish?

Not all identities are valid, some are just frauds.

[zeemike]

155. Well we don't sense identity is a product of the mind not biology.

You can be born disabled as referenced by the general population, but if you are borne like them but your mind convinces you that you are disabled then you identify as such...that would make you a fraud...and logically identify as the cause of it.

But exceptions are carved out for some but not all.

[Major Nikon]

156. The reason being protected classes can't be directly compared

Gender isn't the same as race and color. Religion isn't the same as age. Disability isn't the same as sexual orientation. So just because something is true for one, doesn't mean it's true for all. Someone can certainly identify with whatever religion or lack of religion they choose, but you can't choose to be disabled or not. Even if someone could identify as a race and color in which they had no biological component (and I'm not saying they can), such a thing would require a sincerely held belief that it were true. There's nothing sincere about this woman. She has lied and continues to lie about pretty much all of it including who her parents are. That's what fraud looks like.

[zeemike]

157. In short, all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Because pigs are different than goats.

And I am in no position to determine what is a sincerely held beliefs because I have no access to their mind...if they call themselves black I accept that they believe it...what I believe is what I observe and that is all.

[sub.theory]

102. So, you are saying it's so....because you say it's so

You fail to show that a person who self identifies as black is not actually black. You are simply claiming it's so, but there is not a scrap of actual evidence you are using to support that. You have decreed that she is not actually black, because you have decided she's not black. How do you have any idea what her "real self" is? Are you her? You have, correctly, acknowledged that racial identity has no genetic meaning (and thus is not objectively real). Your logic, however, at determining that gender identity is not genetic and thus not objectively real has no scientific basis. There are chromosomal differences that mandate gender physiology. The very hormonal levels that you dismiss are indeed very real on the biological level. No biologist or physician would ever claim that regulation of hormone levels is not biologically significant. In fact, disease is often the result of abnormal levels.

So, again, why is race a fixed construct but not gender?

Edit: My point is that you can't say that gender identity is a construct, when it has clear genetic basis, but say that race identity is fixed when it has no genetic basis.

[markpkessinger]

148. No, not because I say it's so . . .

If the concept of 'race' is socially constructed, then it cannot at the same time be said to be innate or intrinsic (as gender identity is). An identity that is innate or intrinsic is the antithesis of an identity that is socially constructed, by definition. To say otherwise is to render meaningless the words innate and intrinsic, and to do violence to the language. As to your statement, to wit: "you can't say that gender identity is a construct, when it has clear genetic basis, but say that race identity is fixed when it has no genetic basis," a couple of points . . .

First, I think we need to clarify the terms. It seems you are still conflating biological sex with gender identity. You are certainly correct that biological sex has a clear genetic basis and (most of the time) clear corresponding physical attributes. Gender identity, however, refers to a person's own understanding/perception of himself/herself as being male or female, and has NO genetic marker so far as anyone knows. As I said in my original post, for most of us, our gender identity corresponds to our biological sex (which is perhaps part of why the distinction between the two is so difficult for many cis-gendered folks to grasp). While the causes of gender identity that conflicts with a person's biological sex, are not known, the medical and psychological communities are in general agreement that gender identity is fixed at a very early age -- possibly as early as two years of age -- and that, just as with sexual orientation, it is impervious to attempts to change it by any method of treatment. Thus, it is not something one adopts or chooses -- it is something one already has.

The 'fixed' nature of racial identity is primarily a function of the fixed nature of what it means to be white in this country. To the extent racial identity is 'fixed,' it is fixed by the culture that both creates and defines it in the first place.

[pnwmom]

131. Since we can't see into her brain

how do we know that she didn't express her "intrinsic, authentic racial identity" -- in the same way that Jenner expressed her "intrinsic, authentic gender identity"?

[Maeve]

133. That is one of the clearest explanations I have seen, thank you

And without the insults to those who are still struggling with the concepts involved.

A lot of people don't 'get' the issues because they have never had to wrap their minds around the issues. i don't know any transgendered people, but my kids do, so I've had a bit longer to let the ideas sink in and I know to listen until understanding arrives.(old minds can be taught! but it takes time...)

I feel sorry for Ms Dolezal ; she has a lot of family and identity issues to work thru and could use a good therapist to help her understand why she has gone about things the wrong way entirely.

[Chemisse]

87. Atypical gender identities likely have a physical or genetic origin.

Under the superficial differences among people of different races, we are all basically the same. Becoming involved in the culture of another race is fine; lying about who you are is not.

[zeemike]

94. And so does skin colour.. and that is not just likely but a fact.

So you could then say that identifying as a woman when your DNA says you are male is fine, but lying about your biology is not?
You can't have it both ways...If a white person wants to identify as a black person despite the biology of their body then to be fair you must allow it.

[bravenak]

115. Only if black people are allowed to be white.

And we aren't so, no. We do not accept her as black. It's not quite fair for anyone to tell us to accept this charlatan, who goes around in blackface as black. Hell no.
Since a black man cannot be white just because they identify as white; a white man cannot do it either and have it accepted. Hell, white people don't accept black peopl who are half white as white, why the hell should we accept a person who is zero percent black as black? Only white people get that privilege. It is not okay to ask us to do that when it would never be recipricated.

[DamnYankeeInHouston]

29. The school district somehow labeled my light skinned, blue eyed, blond daughter

as "Native American/Inuit." When I went to correct it, I was told that anyone is allowed to change their race once, no questions asked. To me, race is not a real thing and is totally made up by people, kind of like religion. My favorite answer to the race question on the school enrollment card I received as a teacher was, "Human." Culture is a completely different and very real thing as is the bad blood between so many tribes. I feel sorry for the lady and also feel sorry for all of us having to hear about it day in and day out. I hope she finds peace. I hope that someday race is no longer tracked on forms, but that is a long way off.

[uppityperson]

45. I got in trouble in 1970s when had to fill out a questionnaire to graduate

Under race I wrote human, under religion I write none. I was called in to answer it again, gave the same answers. So off to the college Dean and...same answers. They told me I had to answer "right", I told them I did. What nationality was tried, I said American. What are your parents came next. Mom and Dad was answered. No, what was their nationality? American. OK, what about your grandparents? I asked why did they need to know anything about my deceased grandparents, my college education has nothing to do with them. Then there was the religion part where they said I had to be something.

Around and around until they finally told me it was to track and see who was in college but fuck it. I was human, no religion. We finally agreed on something so I could graduate but it upset me that they wouldn't accept those answers. I know now they were starting to track to figure it all out, who was attending, how to get others into school, etc.

And now? I am mixed, still human and still no religion or rather that is private.

[DamnYankeeInHouston]

51. I guess things have progressed slightly.

As teachers, we were told to never assume or guess race and accept whatever the parents put down on the form. I'm mixed race; mostly white, but also 1/32 African, probably Algerian. My triple great grandfather was kidnapped and enslaved by the French. Luckily, he ended up in Sweden and so became free, but far from home. I will never know what my real surname should be and like to taunt my more racist relatives by threatening to change my name to Anne X. Luckily, religion questions no longer appear on public school forms.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

69. She wasn't brought up with her black adopted brothers.

She is a lot older than they are and didn't go to school with them.

She was raised in Troy Montana which is only 0.2% black. There is no 'black culture' there. I happen to know a bit about this because I raised my son in a town that is 0.2% black and he was the only black kid in the school.

Fabricating racist hate crimes is malicious. She is not unemployed either. She is a professor at Eastern University. She teaches classes about what it's like to be black!!!!

[notadmblnd]

84. It was not a paid position.

So she did not do it for the money. Melissa Harris Perry expressed that the local chapter presidency position is a volunteer positionfor which she was not being compensated for.

[MohRokTah]

12. "Transracial" is like "Affluenza".

A made up term to keep privileged white people from taking responsibility for their actions.

[etherealtruth]

46. Borrowing a word from religion: AMEN n/t

[1StrongBlackMan]

47. LOL ...

Mic meet floor ... violently!

[Tarheel_Dem]

92. Oh Lord, YES!

[jtuck004]

14. There are only about 6 black folks in this town, barely enough for the cops to beat up on.

And we are only about 40 miles, and the largest town near the Whitopia of Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, where it seems they have even less.

I suspect this is one of the few towns where someone, essentially in blackface, can not only work at the NAACP, but teach as a black woman at the University.




I do agree with you about the trust issue, though, frankly, I wonder if they put as much investigative power into the death of the man who died in police custody a few weeks before this.

People do seem to often worry about the things that will hurt them the least.

[beam me up scottie]

16. Dolezal is only black when it's convenient.

What color was she when she sued Howard University?

I just saw an interview where she claimed she identified as black at age 5, but when she was confronted with a picture of herself at 16 (looking very Gwyneth Paltrow) and asked if she was black at that time, she said no.

Trans people don't choose their gender, Dolezal has harmed both the AA and trans communities with this lie.

[Spazito]

19. Well said n/t

[KamaAina]

20. “Damn, Rachel Dolezal. Even Vanilla Ice didn’t claim to BE black”: W. Kamau Bell

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026841557

[jalan48]

21. This sounds absurd.

[Exilednight]

23. I wonder if she understands how badly she has hurt the

Racial struggles that take place in this country every single day.

[handmade34]

30. how has she hurt the racial struggles?

[maindawg]

24. I have known many trans racial people in my life

Just go to any mixed race neighborhood you will find hundreds of purportedly caucasion people who dress and act like people of color. What right doers anyone have to judge what is real and what is fake? Have you walked in her shoes? Have you seen the world through her eyes? Felt the feelings she has? Hell no you havent.
Who did she hurt ? I think her bosses said she is a good employee. Thats all that matters. All the fauxe outrage over what one woman wants to be. It seems to me she has earned everything she has. All you who condemn her are full of shit.

[markpkessinger]

65. So, tell us . . .

. . . how do people of color dress and act?

[maindawg]

116. its a cultural thing

They dress and act according to the culture and the modern nuances effected. Look, we are all multi racial. We all contain DNA from dozens of different races. We have been interbreeding for 400 million years. How the hell do you identify one and call it that?
Dont Judge

[gollygee]

71. "Dress and act like people of color" ????

Did you ask them if they were white or black? It sounds like you made assumptions based upon what fashions they liked.

No wait, in fact the truth is in their in your post. You call them "Caucasian" but you mean white. But of course the truth is that you knew they were white because you could tell and that's how race works. It's forced on people from the outside. It's a societal thing. It isn't an internal "I feel like" thing. The concept of race was created to allow one group of people to discriminate against other groups of people. Or in fact to steal their land, kill them, and enslave them, and discriminate against them. But it only exists on a societal level. It isn't about how we feel inside, it's about whether we we are in the group that gets discriminated against or not.

[maindawg]

118. it's about whether we we are in the group that gets discriminated against or not.

No its about identity. Its is how a person wants to be identified. We are all multi racial. To put a tag on someone else is wrong. To put one on your self is your right. This woman identifies herself as a person of color. I think that is great. She is educated and responsible as a citizen. I respect that. If she wants to immerse herself into a certain culture she has that right. Its not like she is taking anything away from anyone.
If Caitlin Jenner can be celebrated for getting his freak on then where do you draw the line?

[gollygee]

119. Thanks for outing yourself. n/t

[Spazito]

122. Gosh, no transphobia in your post...

"If Caitlin Jenner can be celebrated for getting his freak on then where do you draw the line?"

This statement makes it clear what your posts are REALLY about.

[Codeine]

90. Every one of those people was a white person playing at being black.

That did not make them "trans-racial." It just means that white privilege is so all-encompassing and insidious that we can even take people's fucking identity and make a game out of it, wear it like a costume until it's time to get a job or until we get pulled over by the police.

Ask a black person how they feel about those white kids who play at blackness -- if they're honest you might get an earful. We can move through their culture, experience it and enjoy it, but we don't get to pretend that makes us them.

[uhnope]

27. tell that to Johnny Otis

to name just one famous example

[TNNurse]

28. I heard her say

" I identify as black". May I identify as tall? Wishing it to be does not make it reality. I have lived in the south all my life. I have heard women who preferred the company of black men referred to as "wishing they were black". No one ever thought those women believed they were black.

I am pretty sure if I had grown up as a black person in this country, I would be furious with her.

[beam me up scottie]

31. Yep. That right there ^^^

She wanted to be black, she wasn't born that way.

[TNNurse]

53. I just saw her on NBC

Essentially accusing her parents of lying about her birth.
They already seemed angry with her, but she just called them liars. Would not want to be there when they confront her.


Also, I wanted to be tall....never made it past 5'2".

[beam me up scottie]

57. Classic behaviour for a pathological liar.

She really is despicable.

Yeah, I wanted to be tall too, made it to 5'4". Wore heels for years, almost ruined my feet.

[handmade34]

35. why?

[stage left]

72. LOL!

I'd like to identify as tall, too. Would I then be trans-stature? I know that I'd still be short, but, apparently that would be immaterial.

[dawg]

37. I agree with you, but I do kind of feel sorry for her though.

Obviously, the woman has issues. And I don't think she ever had any intention of being harmful to black people or white people. She's just kind of messed up, that's all.

[LittleBlue]

38. Not sure about that

No matter how many articles are written to deny its existence, even at places like Huffpo the top comments are supportive of its existence. The reasoning is Bruce Jenner (cuz duh! If he can be a woman she can be black doncha know )

Eventually I think some psychologist will claim it exists and that will break open the floodgates wider than they are. Already people like Whoopi Goldberg, Raven Symone, Kareem Abdul Jabber, Keri Hilson, Dave Chappelle, and other prominent African Americans are defending her.

Legitimacy is governed by popular opinion, like it or not.

[HereSince1628]

39. There may be no such previous thing in language, the post-modernists

seem to make a big deal about things existing in language so they can exist in perceived reality...

but being a biologist rather than a post-modern linguist, I realize things can exist before they have labels that bring them into language.

I say that not because I have one of the polar opinions on "transracial". But to suggest that agnosticism on this subject may be a reasonable space to occupy.

[MohRokTah]

40. When a black man can "self identify" as a white man and cops stop pulling him over....

I MIGHT consider it possible to be transracial.

[jalan48]

43. Has she undergone treatments to change her skin color?

I remember a book from my college days, 'Black Like Me', an account of a white man who had medical treatments to make his skin dark. Afterward he traveled though the South as a kind of experiment to see how he would be treated. I believe it happened in the late 50's or early 60's.

[Unknown Beatle]

48. The Jerk - I was born a poor black child.

[ismnotwasm]

50. Thank you, thank you, thank you

The hands done winner of the racist meme of the week. Sweet Jesus.

[markpkessinger]

56. For those who doubt that 'race' (unlike gender) is 100% socially constructed . . .

. . . may I comment the 2003 documentary, "Race: The Power of an Illusion." It is a superb exploration of how the entire notion of 'race' took root in our culture, and the various purposes to which racial identity has been put to use.

But let me clarify: to say that race is 100% socially constructed is not to say it isn't a cultural reality, with very real effects or benefits, depending on which race a person is identified as being a member of.

[sub.theory]

80. Completely correct

Race is a social construct. Genetically, it has little meaning. For those who claim otherwise, please state where we draw the line genetically.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

58. Someone has to explain it to her....

[pansypoo53219]

59. in grade school + childhood, i always preferred making black friends. much easier in the hood. BUT

i never pretended i was black.

[me b zola]

63. In adoptionland transracial is a term that POCs adopted by white people use to self-identify

There are many groups out there. Here is the one that I follow:

http://landofgazillionadoptees.com/

[beam me up scottie]

99. Thank you for starting a separate thread about this!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026848470

[stage left]

67. I agree.

As I stated in another thread transracial is a non-concept concept, suitable only as flamebait and for trolling the internet.

[betsuni]

70. Her motto: It's not a lie if you believe it.

[migsan]

73. Mariah Carey

What race is Mariah Carey?

[gollygee]

74. She is multiracial

You could Google that, you know.

[migsan]

82. Your correct

I should of done my research.

I guess she was on the Lopez tonight show and she said she considers herself black. George asks for the break down and says her mother is Irish and her father is black and her great grandmother on her dads side was from Valenzuela. So people are like well her dad isn't full black but what African American is full black? so her background is she is less than 10% latino 45% black 45% white.
And i doubt those are accurate considered latino isn't a race. I am asian but my great-great granmother was white so does that make me white? no I am still asian. You go by what your mother and father is.
She was on the cover of Essence which i heard she wanted to be on which is a black magazine and usually only black women are on there
She was on the cover of vibe and ebony which are also black magazines
She always has a black choir and black people in her back up singers
I always thought she was just some mixed black girl she even sounds like one and not to mention she is doing R&B which is African American culture that started in the African American Community.
Mix of Rhythm and Blues.
So because she considers herself black its a bad thing?
What about Alicia Keys, Halle Berry etc they consider there selves black but nobody says anything.

[shanti]

96. because one of their parents' is black

that's why alicia, halle, and mariah can claim black. it's their birthright.

[beam me up scottie]

100. "its a bad thing" if your parents are lily white and you claim one of them is black.

The "bad thing" here is lying about your race/parents/hate crimes for personal gain.

That's what people are upset about.

[gollygee]

149. Multiracial people (white and African American) are usually treated as black by society

They are still discriminated against, so their experience is that of someone who is black, so yeah they often identify as black. Race is given to us by society. If we are discriminated against for our race, then we have that race.

[Skittles]

75. agreed

very well-said, MrScorpio

[sub.theory]

76. Race is far more nebulous than gender

If we accept that people can be born the "wrong" gender, then how can we deny that people are born the "wrong" race? Especially when race is far less concrete of a concept than gender. Just what genetic makeup determines what race you are? It's far more clear with gender.

I just find it strange that so many progressives are readily willing to accept that people have the right to be another gender, but not another race.

Personally, I don't find anything really offensive about what she did. I find the dishonesty to be the real problem, but the fact that she identifies as black, I have no problem with.

[markpkessinger]

83. Please see post #42, which addresses your question n/t

[JanetLovesObama]

85. I love her.

SHE should be getting the Arthur Ashe Award of Courage.

[beam me up scottie]

91. She SUED Howard University for discrimination!

How is being black only when it's convenient courageous?

[840high]

103. Of course it's not.

[beam me up scottie]

104. Tell that to the poster who wants to give her the Arthur Ashe courage award.

[840high]

109. I hope you're joking.

[JanetLovesObama]

78. Those parents !

If I had fucked up parents that she was stuck with who allowed their own biological WHITE son to rape their 7 yr old adopted black daughter ............. I'd claim to be ANYTHING but the white trash parents she was stuck with. They are making the Duggars look like Saints.

[840high]

108. If she said it hasppened - I don't believe her.

[AZ Progressive]

86. Setting Rachel Dolezal aside, race is pretty much a construct

The only significance race has is in the shape and certain features of the head. Other things, like color of the skin, and body build, vary significantly by location and even by person.


Try and figure out where each of these people come from:









#1 is Spanish, #2 is English, #3 is Indian, and #4 is Turkish


Minute differences that have to be digged up through DNA analysis is pretty much what race is.

And what does a Native American (which has a mongoloid type head structure) and a Chinese person have in common? Or an Indian and a Spanish person? Other than similar facial features?

Culture is more important than race.

[MrsMatt]

164. #2 is not English

Catherine Zeta Jones is Welsh.

It may seem a minor quibble, but not to the Welsh.

[lovemydog]

93. Thank you.

[99Forever]

95. I don't what to think of the entire situation...

... but I do think Mr Scorpio is a reliable voice from the black community. Thanks for confirming what I kind of thought anyway.

[tblue]

101. As a light skinned black woman who people look at

and have no idea wtf I am, let me be the first NOT to jump on this bandwagon of condemnation. I'll stand alone without judgment, if I have to. I'm used to it and I don't care.

You can't rightfully tell me I'm not black any more than you can rightfully tell me I am not female if that's what I say I am. If we all agree to accept whatever gender a person claims for him/herself, then why would we absolutely refuse to do that when it comes to racial identity?

Whatever the truth turns out to be, if we ever do hear it in full, I doubt it will be as cut and dried, or "black and white" if you will, as all this damnation says it must be.

I don't know the entire story or why that woman did what she did. I do know there are enough people in the world hating on black people and anybody trying to make things better for the community as a whole is preferable to people who don't do that, imho. I think she did that to some degree at least.

Maybe she did something heinous and I just don't see it at this point. My bad. Maybe it's enough for me that her entire world has collapsed and she's in the middle of being publicly shamed, blamed, and mortified--with most of even DU hauling out the pitchforks and torches. Did she harm a child? Did she kill somebody? If she did, please tell me. Otherwise, pardon me if I don't join the parade.

[Damansarajaya]

129. +1 well said! nt

[840high]

105. Thank you. K/r

[Raine1967]

106. I appreciate this post so very much.

I never heard that phrase until this week.

*passing* that I'd heard.

I think her being outed as white (WTF) by her parents has more to do with her family (function/dysfucnction) than her claiming she is black.

Who originally said she was transracial? I can't help but feel it was an apologist.

my biggest problem was that she lied.

She lied. She was a white women who never had to hide her truth. She was a white woman. To quote Dave Chapelle:

There’s not one thing that woman accomplished that she couldn’t have done as a white woman.

I can't disagree with that.

[Puzzledtraveller]

132. There's different angles for the pro or cons.

I'm against the concept, and the reason you make is one I share. Also, I am very proud of my lineage which I have traced to it's ancient roots. That is Basque. We even share physical similarities that are specific to the Basque people as well as my own surname which is very unique in the world and as such easily traced to it's origin, that being Asturias in Spain. My other components, for lack of better term are also Hispanic, originating in Spain and traced on a path from Spain to Cuba, to the Americas and even Philippines. It would bother me greatly that someone could make a claim to who and what I am for example. I am immensely proud to be Basque.

[Omnith]

110. You don't know her!

And you shouldnt talk about things you know nothing about.

[MrScorpio]

111. Oh, please. Frankly, I'm not certain that this woman even knows herself.

It's quite clear that she's lived her life as a delusion.

[Omnith]

113. Perhaps

I don't know her thought or feelings. But she is not the kind of person I would want to ridicule.

[MrScorpio]

114. I have no need to cut her or any of her lies any slack.

If she wanted to be a true ally to black people, it was never necessary for her to wear blackface.

[Jamaal510]

112. There wouldn't

have been any problems if RD had kept it 100. She appeared to be doing a decent job as the Spokane NAACP leader beforehand, and she had no reason to lie about her race. And I appreciate her being a civil rights advocate, but the "transracial" thing is one of the most ridiculous ideas I've ever heard of. Everyone should just be happy with being themselves. You can't be somebody you're not.

[lovemydog]

121. +1

[Damansarajaya]

120. I've got to part company with you on this . . .

With all due respect, and I value your opinion very highly here and at DI, I don't know how one can square this with supporting trans-genderism.

Isn't it equally "dishonest" for men to undergo surgery and pass themselves off as women? And before you say no, consider if you're in a relationship with someone for several months including a sexual relationship and then you find out your girlfriend lived her first 26 years of life as a man.

Is that "dishonest?" It seems to me that if one supports the transgendered, and I do, then one has to support the trans-racials.

Take a look at Johnny Otis, for instance. I always thought the guy who brought "Hound Dog" to Elvis Presley was black. Turns out, he was Greek-American, but that didn't stop him from letting people think he was black.

"While growing up as part of a Greek immigrant family in Berkeley, California, Otis began a lifelong attraction and commitment to African American culture. He celebrated the vibrancy of African American music and its power to unite people across racial boundaries, coming to think of himself as 'black by persuasion.'"

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Johnny-Otis

“Yes, I chose,” Otis reflected in 1979, “because despite all the hardships, there’s a wonderful richness in black culture that I prefer.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/music-obituaries/9028829/Johnny-Otis.html

[MrScorpio]

123. "I was born a black person in a white body…"

Said by whom now?

What are we going to have to start doing, changing people's racial identity through a process of racial reassignment surgery? How does resolving this so called "Transracialism (Racial Dysphoria / Ethnic Identity Disorder) work? How will black and brown people who believe in all their hearts that they're actually lily white folks get to make that transformation as well? Does that mean that we will actually account for all of those fat white kids who believe that they were born as skinny KPop idols too?

Hmmm… Is this the thing that will finally destroy white supremacy, or is it what I suspect and is just more of the same?

It's dishonest because there is not a parallel between "racial dysphoria" and gender dysphoria. Gender Dysphoria is a real process, with clearly identifiable physiological symptoms and treatments. A person's assigned gender is not based on the genders of their biological parents, in the way that one's own racial make up is based upon the ethnicity of their own parents. People are white, black, brown or multi-racial because their parents are white, black, brown or multi-racial.

But none of this means that it's necessary for a lily white person, whose entire ancestry was lily white, to try was and change the texture of their hair and their skin color in order to approximate the appearance of a black person. Straight hair and white skin was the card that was dealt from their parents.

Look at it this way: Suppose, for a moment that such a white person was born in an all-white society, with absolutely no knowledge of anyone other than other white people. All of this person's ancestors have been white as are all of their offspring. Inside of this isolated scenario, how can this white person claim that they were born a black person in a white body?

White supremacy in this country is a one way street, otherizing those who are not outwardly looking white… In that case, it allows those who were born to non-white parents, but are outwardly looking white to pass AS white people (The highest, most desirable status in this country) and relegates even white people who appear to have ethnically non-white features to be classified as "other than."

The case of Johnny Otis, if anything, is nothing more than another indictment of racial politics in this country. Because, as long as white people have started making a buck from it, they've tried to separate blackness from black people. From the black face minstrel shows of the 19th century, Vaudeville of the 20th, all the way to Otis, whites have appropriated supposed black culture, for the entertainment of other whites and for their own aggrandizement and financial gain.

[Damansarajaya]

126. That's rather an ungenerous view of Johnny Otis.

I don't think he self-identified as black because he wanted to make a buck. He grew up in a black neighborhood and wanted to be part of that culture. The many careers he furthered among black artists is the stuff of legend.

As for Gender-Dysphoria (aka, GID), it has been a medical condition for maybe 30 years. Before that, it was a pathological psychiatric condition, and "treatment" was to force people to adjust to what God gave them: when the therapy failed, they faced ostracism, ridicule, and rejection exactly the same response we see to Rachel Dolezal now.

Lastly, the point that "A person's assigned gender is not based on the genders of their biological parents, in the way that one's own racial make up is based upon the ethnicity of their own parents" supports my position rather more than yours, imho. There is not a single isolated gene that can be found that indicates race . . . forensic science even has difficulty identifying race from skeletal remains (see for instance The Kennewick Man). This is wholly UNLIKE gender which is distinguished by an entire chromosome, and skeletal information quickly and accurately indicates sex. The measurable physical differences between the genders is much greater than the differences between the races, which is more an abstract cultural construct.

It's well-known in medical science that two parents who look white can have a "black" baby if they have a mixed race background and the genes combine in such a way as to pass on black characteristics. The process is similar to two black haired parents producing a child with red hair if the parents have recessive red hair genes. Sandra Laing in South Africa is an example of this.

?w=500

[MrScorpio]

128. He identified as black because he wanted to make black music...

Don't forget that he's also a product of his time. A time when so-called "race music" was being rejected by the vast majority of white people in this country.

Otis was one of quite a few whites who strove to transport black music and black culture to white audiences. It's just that his racial ambiguity allowed him to use an angle of a supposed black person. No matter what he looked and sounded like, he was always a Greek-American.

[Skittles]

139. correct

hey, making sure you saw this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6852665

[MrScorpio]

141. Thanks!

The article there refers to the proper usage of the word, not some made up racial dysphoria that's making the rounds here.

[Skittles]

147. absolutely

it pains me to have to "explain" something I feel should be obvious to anyone with critical thinking skills

[Damansarajaya]

158. Demeaning the opposing views of others as

"they lack critical thinking skills" is in itself a lack of critical thinking.

This is an issue upon reasonable people can disagree. Saying that the opposition is "too stupid to understand" is simple ad hominem attack.

"Any two individuals within any so-called race may be as different from each other (genetically) as they are from any individual in another so-called race. Are the people that we call 'black' more like each other than they are like people whom we call 'white' genetically speaking? The answer is, no."

For instance, I was born with red hair. Am I more like other people with red hair because we all share that physical characteristic? The answer according to the geneticists is no way. Not even close.

[Skittles]

159. I will always demean the opposing view of bigots

ALWAYS

[Damansarajaya]

160. Alerting on this. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

162. Alert failed, but just barely.

I was juror #3.

On Thu Jun 18, 2015, 06:59 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

I will always demean the opposing view of bigots
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6860569

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Tried to explain that Skittle's previous comment that anyone who disagreed with his position "lacked critical thinking" was unfair.

In response to that, s-he called me a bigot.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jun 18, 2015, 07:12 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Skittles says they'll demean the view of bigots. If the alerter self identifies as a bigot it sounds like they've got bigger problems than with Skittles' post. -nw
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: People you disagree with aren't necessarily bigots. And that appears to be the case here. There is too much of this crap going on here. Hide.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Name-calling is inappropriate. The alerter may have a different POV and did not warrant a personal attack.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Damansarajaya]

163. Thanks, Comrade. Was trying to have

a real dialogue here, but ad hominem is his sport, apparently, not discussion.

[ileus]

124. There's anything we want to be...for instance yesterday I declared myself a unicorn.

We are what we want to be, that's my motto.

[MrScorpio]

125. If you can shit us up some vibrant rainbows...

...Then you'll be doing a bang up job to make the world a much better place.

[ileus]

127. How about if I just fix X-ray equipment???

[BKH70041]

135. Says who?

Certainly none of the regular members at this site are qualified to make their beliefs on this to be the universal standard for everyone.

This will fall into the category of "Law of Unintended Consequences," and it should.

If someone wants to call themselves a certain sex, but everything about their physical anatomy since birth says they aren't that at all, and this is to be accepted, then Pandora's Box is open. If Mike Tyson wants to call himself a woman and Elle McPherson wants to call herself a man, then so be it, they're what they call themselves. If Bernie Mac wants to call himself white and Jeff Dunham wants to call himself Eastern Asian, then so be it, they're what they want to call themselves. If someone calls themselves a leaf on a tree, then by gum they're a leaf on a tree.

Now, no doubt there will be those who will fight back against things they consider to be "absurd," but one person's absurd is another person's normal, or so we'll be told. And why not? The argument has worked to this point.

The genie is out of the bottle. Saying "there's no such thing as..." is a feather in the wind. There will be people who take these things and run with it, just as it's happened already with other things. I've already accepted it and am just going to kick back and watch the fun.

[MrScorpio]

144. Dolezal has lied to support her case that she's a black woman in a white body...

Why is this not relevant to you?

Also, if you want to sport this "Racial Dysphoria / Ethnic Identity Disorder," I suggest that you'd support your assertions without using the false equivalency of comparing it to Gender Dysphoria. You should be able to make your case all on it's own. Otherwise, it's like comparing apples to Buicks.

If people could call themselves whatever race that they do not appear to be, without any regard to their ethnic heritage (as in their parents and their parent's parents), then why is race relevant at all? Why shouldn't every black person in this country call themselves "white" as well?

[BKH70041]

146. My opinion is that it ultimately won't matter.

Cat's outta the bag. Trans(fill-in-the-blank) is now open for all. It's just a matter of who individually accepts what the "fill-in-the-blank" turns out to be and who doesn't.

Now, time may prove me wrong. But, generally speaking, to believe that changing what is considered to be "traditional" won't have consequences beyond the ability to be controlled?!?

Nope, these things always find a way to break ground that some people never intended to be broken. And then the unintended becomes the new norm. And then someone else has to push the envelope a little further. And then...

[NuclearDem]

150. No, it's not.

Transgender has a basis in biology. Transracial is a nonsense term coined by RWers who finally figured out the "transspecies" nonsense made them look too obvious of assholes.

[plstephen]

136. No such thing as transracial

Transracial is an illusion. But a person can choose to live life to their choosing without being deceptive. If they want to live as an african american, why do they feel the need to lie about it.

[jjewell]

140. Rachel Dolezal tried to pull...

a "reverse Clayton Bigsby", but she didn't have blindness for an excuse...

[lovemydog]

145. +1

for the Clayton Bigsby / Dave Chappelle reference.

[fadedrose]

152. How about Trans nationality?

I feel like an Egyptian. Have always been interested in the pyramids, and the mummy movies are near and dear to my heart.

No longer am I descended from a Slovakian country with nothing but mountains, I am an Egyptian. I think I am a direct descendant of Cleopatra and have been drawing triangles ever since somebody handed me a pencil and also like to draw human figures with birds heads..

So there.

[gollygee]

153. That would make immigration easier n/t

[Skittles]

161. do you walk like an Egyptian, fadedrose?

if not, I call BS; yes INDEED