Caitlyn Jenner and the perpetuation of ridiculous physical standards for women

[cali]

this is what's been bothering me about the whole Caitlyn Jenner Vanity Fair fawning. I haven't been able to put it into words, but I've found an op-ed that does:



A NEW goddess has emerged like Botticelli’s Venus rising from the sea. Caitlyn Jenner gazes out from Annie Leibovitz’s July Vanity Fair cover, bare save for a satin bodysuit. Her auburn curls tumble over alabaster shoulders. Can she really be the avatar of personal freedom and self-expression the media claims her to be?

Caitlyn Jenner’s transition is more than a private matter. It is a commercial spectacle on an enormous scale, revealing some disturbing truths about what we value and admire in women.

Inside the magazine, Ms. Jenner poses in skintight dresses, a cinched black lace corset and two different gold evening gowns — the kind of outfits favored by her voluptuous stepdaughter, Kim Kardashian. She lounges on a sofa, peers into mirrors or reclines with her head thrown back, eyes closed. In keeping with the classic iconography of female stardom, Ms. Jenner appears languid and glamorous, her body still and on display rather than performing any activity.

Ms. Jenner is 65 years old, but Caitlyn “codes” many decades younger. Her features are tiny and doll-like, her lips plumped, her skin lineless. Even her new chosen first name feels bizarrely girlish, conjuring more a college student, or maybe a sixth Kardashian sister, than a grandmother.

<snip>
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/03/opinion/the-price-of-jenners-heroism.html?_r=0

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. They nailed it.

Whether you are born female or transition, there are certain standards that must be met, most of which are impossible without a whole lot of money and/or plastic surgery - especially if you're 65 (by which time most women have become become effectively invisible). We are all amazed at how great (read: young and sexy) Caitlyn Jenner looks. Sadly, if her transition hadn't been to a young, sexy look, but to an obviously 65-year-old grandma, she'd have been mocked even more harshly on Fox and elsewhere.

[hlthe2b]

4. Yup... exactly...

[LittleBlue]

9. It's unfortunate that celebrities and models set a standard at all

It's unrealistic to expect normal people to look the way models and celebrities do.

Maybe we need to start seeing those who grace magazines as the exception to the rule. I can't understand people who see magazine covers or pro athletes and make them their personal standard.

[get the red out]

22. Yes!

My first reaction was to wonder what was so wrong with a woman showing she had lived for a while on this earth?

[Zorra]

37. Very well said. nt

[snooper2]

39. They should talk to the editors who photoshopped and re-touched those pictures to death

[roguevalley]

79. I think she wants to be the feminine woman she never had a

chance to be. Good on her to be pretty and even if she wasn't, she would be an a-bomb for the impact. The problem with a lot of people is the idea of penis removal. Ask men about complete gender reassignment surgery and when they revive from their faint, then you have your answer.

She is free. Fly, lady. I am so happy for you. I am so ridiculously happy it surprises me.

[ProfessorGAC]

2. That's An Interesting Take

I hadn't even thought of that. (Although i admit to only seeing the cover of the magazine on a TV show)

But, since Jenner was clearly older than me when Bruce won Olympic gold, i should have know that Caitlin was at least 5 years older than me now.

She does look awfully young for someone in their mid-60's. Power and money, i guess.

[valerief]

3. I guess that's what made the Netflix series Transparent so good.

She didn't Kardashian herself. She just wore loose women's clothing and that was that. Actually, she may have put on makeup and wore a wig until her hair grew out, but she was an old broad and stayed that way.

[Initech]

5. Big difference between Ms. Jenner and Jeffrey Tambor's character :

This thing called money which Ms. Jenner has more of than any of us could possibly imagine. Since Jeffrey Tambor's character is a retired professor, I'm sure that she does not have the fame and wealth that Ms. Jenner has.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. Tambor's character was a homely old lady because by the time you're 65

that's what happens unless you're very rich. The point is, though, that nobody should have to spend thousands and undergo plastic surgery to be considered "acceptable" looking, whether you were born female or transitioned. In our society women who are not beautiful, especially if they are older, are either ignored or mocked.

[For Freddie]

70. Not So

I will be 70 this year. I have no money. We lost everything when my husband died of cancer due to a pre-existing condition, prior to Obama Care. We went bankrupt, we lost the family business and our home.Due to health care debts. I live entirely on Social Security. Not a huge amount.

One is not "supposed" to look like a homely old lady over age 60!
To feel so is imposing another distorted expectation on aging women.

One is not supposed to look like anything but one's Self!
One can be healthy, strong and beautiful. And BE Happy!

It does not take $$$. It takes inner happiness. Strength and a world view that is not consistently negative, fearful or oppressed.
It takes courage and vision. And a refusal to give into the darkness
they keep generating to weaken all of us.

Aging, like pregnancy, is not a disease.
We all so love Michelle Obama because she is strong and beautiful.
As she ages she will increase in strength and beauty. It is her spirit her inner self that radiates.

Caitlyn is a creation of oppressed young Bruce.
Now he gets to be that girl he always wanted to be.And was inside.
This is his creation and healing.
It is a work of art. He gets to radiate who HE is.
Granted based on current standards of beauty and fashion for women in our culture. This is HIS.

We each have a right to be ourselves also, how ever that looks.
No one can dictate to us , girls,women ,old ladies, men ,boys, old guys, gay straight, trans, what ever, how we are "supposed to look" That is the same old horseshit we have been working toward shit canning for the last 50 years I have be alive and an activist

In an age of body modification and transformation where the young are tatooed and pierced and everyone gets to be what they are, to
use the phrase "supposed to look like" on anyone is a tad obtuse.
Wake up kids, Caitlyn is only the beginning. From Stonewall to Caitlyn took us a long time. More transformation is coming.
As a 70 year old happy healthy grandma long time Feminist, I
love Caitlyn. It is like watching Lauren Bacall on TCM. It is beautiful.
To me it is Art. And it makes her happy and at peace.

Kids I am about 70, I still wear my Ramones T-shirts.
I look about 50. I haven't smoked drank alcohol or eaten murdered beings for 36 years. Because I have allergies.And I wasn't allowed health insurance for years.As a result I don't look like any grandma you might see.

None of us grandmas are supposed to look like anything but ourselves. That is what Stonewall was about, For all of Us.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

73. By "homely old lady" I meant what women are considered to be

once they get past about 45. How we feel about how we look is a separate issue. If Caitlyn Jenner wants to look like she does in Vanity Fair (and I'm guessing that there was some airbrushing and photoshopping going on, as well as a whole lot of plastic surgery), that is certainly her right, considering how much effort and discomfort was probably involved. Maybe she's expressing years of repressed "femininity." Again, that's fine; she can express what she wants however she wants to do it. My concern is really with the expectations placed on women, especially as they age. Caitlyn has managed to look much younger than her years through artificial means - because she wanted to, obviously - but why did she want to? Because of the reality show is the obvious, narrow reason; but what she has done is expressed a concept of feminine beauty that is all out of whack with what women actually look like. It should be perfectly OK to have wrinkles and a saggy butt when you're 65. All the commotion about how "great" she looks is yet another indication that it isn't OK to have wrinkles and a saggy butt; it's considered ugly. Betcha Vanity Fair wouldn't have touched her with a ten-foot pole irrespective of her fame if she looked like most other 65-year-old women.

[Whiskeytide]

81. A genuinely inspiring post...

... I don't know if you meant it to be, but it was. Thanks.

[cali]

6. exactly. and in so doing was more fully a person than

Last edited Thu Jun 4, 2015, 02:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Caitlyn Jenner, ironically. Reality show star less real than fiction. I felt like I was the only person who didn't like that VF cover, who wasn't coming from a place of bigotry. I get that Caitlyn Jenner has a new reality show to promote and that the cover was at least as much about that, but that airbrushed pic of a 65 year old was ridiculous- particularly coming from that Hollywood world that spits women out after 35-40.

[arikara]

18. No you weren't the only person

The whole circus around Caitlyn Jenner disturbs me too and it is not due to any sort of bigotry.

[clarice]

34. You are not the only person. nt

[abakan]

60. I have been skeptical of the whole angst thing.

I think it's about money and little more. I question how a man three times married and father to 10 children felt he was in the wrong body for all these years. It seems he used the male part quite frequently. I don't care what this person does nor do I care the reasons for doing it, but please don't dress up like your attention whore stepdaughter and try to garner sympathy for poor Bruce stuck in the wrong body. I don't buy it.

I know I will be blasted for this but it just doesn't pass the smell test to me.

[cbdo2007]

91. Bruce/Caitlyn comes from the most notorious family of attention seekers over the past

5 years in the world. They are all constantly trying to one-up each other with the newest scandal/lifestyle choice, and he came up with the best way to do that. Game over Kardashians (unless they can top this...which I'm sure they'll try).

If Caitlyn is happy....great, but I would have admired her courage more if she had stayed Bruce, and actually learned to cope with that and be comfortable that he was "different" than using his millions of dollars to try to become a new sex symbol and portray himself ina way that most women that age do not do. Of course it's all about the publicity, and the money, and competition with all the other Kardashians.

[Oneironaut]

12. Where is that actor from? Was it "Arrested Development?"

Looks so familiar.

[Lisa D]

38. Yes, he played George Bluth Sr.

on Arrested Development.

[Oneironaut]

88. Awesome! I knew I remembered him from somewhere.

[logosoco]

7. Perfect! And thanks for posting this!

All over the net, people are oohing and aahing and I'm sitting here thinking, she does not look like the many women I have known and worked with in my life! And all of them beautiful, more by their actions than their looks.

I have made it to the age of 50 without wearing lipstick, I have worn mascara maybe three times. I cut my own hair, I have not worn a bra since I was breast feeding, I wear comfortable clothes and my feet hurt just looking at some of the shoes women wear!

All of this talk about Jenner becoming a woman has made me question what I am. If our society calls someone who dresses like this and wears makeup what a woman is, what about the rest of us who don't have any interest in that?

Most of the women I know work hard and don't have time for all this fluff. But they are every bit as beautiful, even though they won't be on the cover of any magazine.

[AZ Progressive]

10. Caitlyn has about more than 60 years of repressed femininity...

I would think it would come out in the form of a hyper feminine way. Keeping things restricted or hard to attain has a tendency to increase the mental value of something.

I do though think that the front cover was a bit too revealing, and I can see issue with that.

[Liberal_in_LA]

82. true. she never got to be "girlish" when younger. gonna go overboard

[jwirr]

11. In the 60-70s women worked hard to get rid of these so called womanly goals. Many of us stopped

wearing makeup, setting our hair in curlers every night, burned the bra and dropped a lot the "be a lady" ideas our parents had instilled in us. We tried to dump the you have to be sexy idea as well but that did not disappear, unfortunately.

It bothered me when I say the picture of Caitlyn in VF that her first pictures would reveal the idea of the old Glamour magazines. But this article really says it all. I am glad she was able to transition publically but I wish she would have done it more realistically. In a way that would fit more women in her situation.

[cali]

13. but really, as the author says, it's an enormous commercial enterprise

I see it thru that lens and not so much as an individual's journey because it's virtually impossible to disentangle the personal from the commercial here.

[jwirr]

14. Yes, I suspect that when she is not making commercial ops she is able to be that real 65 year old

grandma. At least I hope so.

[hifiguy]

41. Yup. More a manufacturer media circus

than anything else, IMO.

[F4lconF16]

57. Yes...

And that is what makes it so hard to change under capitalism. Everything about our system turns us into commodities. To say it's ingrained in our culture, our language, and our actions would be an understatement.

[The2ndWheel]

15. It's Vanity Fair. Vanity. It's in the name

I guess if it was Grandma Quarterly, it would be different.

[polichick]

16. Well, there is some ground between "Vanity Fair" and "Grandma Quarterly."

[cali]

19. what the outlet is, is irrelevant

It would be interesting though, to find out if any other 65 year old woman has posed in a similar way on the cover of a glossy.

[polichick]

23. Vanity Fair was going for provocative - just like they did with Demi Moore's pregnancy shot...

which also upset some people. That's the point, shaking things up.

[cali]

25. again, the point of the op is the absurd and obscene pressures put on women

And the dismissal of women unless they're highly sexualized.

[polichick]

29. My response was to #19.

[cali]

31. oops. my apologies to you

[cali]

17. wholly irrelevant. that is hardly the point of the oped

I want to add that VF is not a fashion mag, and that the name is a nod to Thackeray

[The2ndWheel]

21. Whatever the magazine is, look at the covers

[Whiskeytide]

20. I'm assuming Jenner controlled ...

... the shoot or had substantial input into it. That was how she wanted to be presented.

[cali]

26. sure, but that doesn't in any way obviate the point of the oped

though it certainly touches on the fact that this is as much a huge commercial enterprise as it is personal journey

[Whiskeytide]

68. Agreed. I'm just observing, I guess, that...

... the commercialization of all this appears to be of her choosing, and if that's how she wanted to do it, who am I to question that? If it plays into some screwed up "societal abnorms" about the obsession with feminine youth, well, that's really more our problem. Zeroing in on her photo shoot as an example of that obsession, I think, is piling on to someone who already has enough on their plate.

But I don't watch the Kardashian show, and I didn't really follow Jenner's career in sports or entertainment. Maybe it is more about the commercial enterprise than the gender identification for her/them. And, since I only fairly recently made the connection that the Kardashian broods' ex-step father was the Olympic athlete from the 70s, I'm probably not qualified to have an opinion.

[Eleanors38]

65. With Leibowitz on the camera?

[Whiskeytide]

69. See. I don't even know who that is. Yikes ....

.... I better get out of this thread before my ignorance embarrasses me further!!

[Eleanors38]

71. Noted photographer who is usually quite in charge of her sessions.

[Whiskeytide]

74. I figured as much ...

... and, I suppose most successful photogs would be that way.

[Mosby]

24. Jon Stewart on Caitlyn Jenner

http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a35444/jon-stewart-caitlyn-jenner-media-coverage/

[IcyPeas]

64. I thought Jon nailed it the other night about this too

[valerief]

84. Yes, he hit the nail on its head. nt

[Rex]

30. Dam...I am just happy for the gal! Can't we just be happy for someone

without making it into a pissing match!?

[cali]

32. one can be happy for her and still recognize and discuss the wider issues

and implications within a cultural context. The two are not mutually exclusive

[Rex]

35. Okay then let me ask, is it wrong to feel sexy?

So do you think what she is doing is morally wrong?

[cali]

40. no, what the heck does that have to do with the issues in the op?

And the only way I think morals enter into this relates to how, what and who our culture celebrates, and hypocrisy of the Hollywood culture vis a vis women and aging. Beyond that, I don't have any objections moral or otherwise to her promoting herself as she wishes.

[zazen]

43. why can't she "feel sexy" looking like a 65- or even 55-year-old woman?

[Rex]

47. Why does it matter?

She is happy, can't we just be happy for her?

[cali]

50. one more time: one can both be happy for her and examine the broader

cultural issues involved. We do that all the time with cultural phenomenon. Why are you so insistent that doing so is wrong? and that certainly seems to be what you are inferring. Why are you so judgmental about people looking at it from a perspective that differs from yours? No one is saying that you shouldn't be happy for her.

[Rex]

59. Why are you so judgmental?

So it is okay to be judgmental, under certain conditions...got it thanks.

[alarimer]

44. Is that the only way to feel sexy?

That those of us who don't go through all that trouble to look a certain way, are not sexy or do not feel sexy?

I don't think so, but that seems to be what you are implying.

And she can look however she damn well pleases. That's not the point. The point is that there is a standard for female beauty and if you transgress that standard, you are either rendered invisible or vilified for it. And the pressure to meet that standard applies to both cis-and trans- women.

Those of us who are not famous celebrities do have the luxury of ignoring that standard without the whole world talking about it. Although we might be ignored when it comes to dating if we do dare to transgress that standard.

[romanic]

80. Seriously.

Caitlyn seems happy regardless of whatever "standards" society puts on women.

[clarice]

33. EXACTLY . +1 nt

[ismnotwasm]

36. It's why I like this article

Laverne Cox Reflects on Caitlyn Jenner and What We Can Do for Trans Women of Color

lr to reflect on the love and support Caitlyn Jenner received for her Vanityfair cover.

She writes:
It feels like a new day, indeed, when a trans person can present her authentic self to the world for the first time and be celebrated for it so universally. Many have commented on how gorgeous Caitlyn looks in her photos, how she is “slaying for the Gods.” I must echo these comments in the vernacular, “Yasss Gawd! Werk Caitlyn! Get it!” But this has made me reflect critically on my own desires to ‘work a photo shoot’, to serve up various forms of glamour, power, sexiness, body affirming, racially empowering images of the various sides of my black, trans womanhood.


In her essay she explains that although she and Caitlyn Jenner have access to the resources that allow them to embody certain cisnormative beauty standards, many trans people do not have access to these resources nor do all trans people desire to embody cisnormative beauty standards.

Now, there are many trans folks because of genetics and/or lack of material access who will never be able to embody these standards. More importantly many trans folks don’t want to embody them and we shouldn’t have to to be seen as ourselves and respected as ourselves. It is important to note that these standards are also infomed by race, class and ability among other intersections. I have always been aware that I can never represent all trans people. No one or two or three trans people can. This is why we need diverse media representstions of trans folks to multiply trans narratives in the media and depict our beautiful diversities.

She then explains #TransIsBeautiful, a hashtag she started as an inclusive way to celebrate and uplift all trans people.

I started #TransIsBeautiful as a way to celebrate all those things that make trans folks uniquely trans, those things that don’t necessarily align with cisnormative beauty standards. For me it is necessary everyday to celebrate every aspect of myself especially those things about myself that don’t align with other people’s ideas about what is beautiful. #TransIsBeautiful is about, whether you’re trans or not, celebrating all those things that make us uniquely ourselves. Most trans folks don’t have the privileges Caitlyn and I have now have. It is those trans folks we must continue to lift up, get them access to healthcare, jobs, housing, safe streets, safe schools and homes for our young people.



Read more: http://theculture.forharriet.com/2015/06/laverne-cox-reflects-on-caitlyn-jenner.html#ixzz3bvxMpslc

[closeupready]

42. Was this op-ed penned by professional momager Kris Jenner?

[cali]

45. huh?

[closeupready]

52. I like you Cali, and I'd explain if I didn't have a fan club here

waiting for the chance to alert on my every move. So I'm going to leave my mysterious remark as is. Thanks!

[cali]

55. I hear you regarding the fan club. I have one too

[closeupready]

58. lol - I don't disagree with the idea that women are expected

to maintain an unrealistic body shape/appearance, while men are afforded a great deal of personal discretion when it comes to how they look or dress.

[valerief]

85. Yeah, like when did this guy stop being pretty? Puberty, maybe?

And he's enjoyed a long life as a ladies' man, at least, according to the press.

[closeupready]

86. Eek! You really should post an all caps WARNING,

for the faint of heart. That's one scary character.

[valerief]

87. And its not his looks that make him truly scary. He'd still be a monster if he looked like

a young Rock Hudson.

[Prism]

46. Of two minds here

1. I'm glad trans issues are receiving this kind of exposure.

2. There's something just plain weird and skeevy about it. The media circus, the desire of both Caitlyn and Vanity Fair to hyperfeminize her in a very stereotypical way. It reminds me a little bit of something on this season of RuPaul's Drag Race. One of the contestants (I think Violet Chatchke), has this incredibly tiny waist and wore outfits to show it off. Now, of course, it's drag. Taking anachronistic feminine ideals to extremes is part of the shtick. But the judges ooh and aah'd over an idealized form that was long imposed on women but only easily achievable by thin men.

It's a little discordant, and I felt the same way seeing Jenner's photos.

Whatever makes her happy, I suppose. But the circus atmosphere is off-putting. Give me a Laverne Cox any day of the week.

[KoKo]

48. That is a powerful article....

I hadn't been following the whole transformation of Bruce to Caitlyn until the Vanity Fair Screenshot posted on DU. But, when I saw that photo and caption I thought it was just a joke/satire or something. I had no idea that there was a whole real Vanity Fair photo spread with photos by Annie Leibovitz that are described in the NYT piece...or that Brenner had all those children and stepchildren. Article doesn't say how he's a stepfather to one of the Kardashians and I don't follow them either...so its a puzzle. The NYT's writer nails my reaction about the symbolism/stereotyping. Sad. Simone would be rolling over in her grave. In trying to move forward (Bruce finally achieving her true identity) we often can move backward in the celebrity circus of today's media.

Anyway, thank you for posting.

[cali]

51. yeah, it really is. also very well written

[HassleCat]

49. That's what she prefers

Bruce Jenner was always a public person. He hung out with famous people, tried to extend his 15 minutes of fame, etc. His successor, Caitlyn Jenner, appears to have a similar personality. I think she derives much satisfaction from the way she looks and the attention she gets for her transition and the spectacular job they did making her look young and pretty. The op-ed is pretty harsh. Do they feel the same way about Jane Fonda and Cher?

[cali]

53. the op-ed is in no way personally harsh toward Caitlyn Jenner

It isn't a personal attack on her by any stretch of the imagination. And you have to be living in a cave not to know about the actual personal attacks that have been directed at Cher, for years, regarding her looks.

[Cleita]

54. Most 65 year old women could not afford the surgeries and other cosmetic

procedures that it would take to look that good. But that said, I won't condemn any women who can do it if they like. All of us women of a certain age wouldn't mind looking much more attractive if we had the resources to do so. Caitlyn's surgeon did a stellar job and will be very much in demand among the 1% trophy wives and husbands.

[cali]

56. there are plenty of women with the resources who eschew pladtic surgery

But again that wasn't the point of the oped

[Cleita]

78. Yes, there are plenty of those women and I know them from the gym. They laugh at the women

Last edited Thu Jun 4, 2015, 09:52 PM - Edit history (1)

at the gym who do get surgery. It's sort of the opposite of fat shaming. It's still picking on women's looks no matter how you look at it. The Op Ed also claims that women of accomplishment don't make the scene if they aren't artificially embellished. Actually, they do. Hillary Clinton is an example of that as is Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Maya Angelou and many, many others. Although I suspect Hillary has had her eyes refreshed.

A member of my family has opted to go the cosmetic surgery route. She is 65 too. She did it because she could afford to. It had nothing to do with her needing to compete with women younger than her and maybe prettier than her. She just wanted to look better. When she was young, she got her teeth straightened and nose fixed too. Also, among members of Congress who have had cosmetic surgery are Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer. They probably felt that since they are in front of cameras a lot, they preferred to look less haggish from the toll long hours and sleepless nights takes on one's face. Then there are those who don't, and who are no less accomplished or out in public than the aforementioned.

In summary, there is nothing wrong with wanting to look your best and using the options available to you if you can afford them. There is nothing wrong with not doing it and deciding you would rather people looked past your looks and focused on your accomplishments instead. What is wrong is shaming women whose appearance choices you disagree with.

[KamaAina]

61. No. The sixth Kardashian sister would be Kaitlyn.

To go with Kim, Kourtney, Khloe, etc.

[WinkyDink]

75. "C"aitlyn is a deliberate and profound separation.

[KamaAina]

90. You nailed it.

http://blog.sfgate.com/hottopics/2015/06/02/why-caitlyn-jenner-didnt-spell-her-name-with-a-k/

The question is popping up all over the social media universe.

Why didn’t Caitlyn Jenner spell her name with a “K”?

All of her daughters’ names start with the letter “K”: Kendall, Kylie, Kim, Kourtney, Khloé. She was a part of the Kardashian clan klan and starred in a show titled Keeping up with the Kardashians.

The answer to this question seems obvious. Caitlyn wants to make a break from the Kardasians.

[cwydro]

62. Completely my thoughts

when I saw that cover.

[War Horse]

63. Here's how I feel about this (point well made, though):

'Someone has changed their gender'

'Is it someone I know, should I get involved, offer support?'

'No, this is a rather irrelevant person. Some gold medal olympian, who deserves credit for that, but whom few people on this planet have even heard about'

'Well, good luck to them, then'.

I know it doesn't work that way, but wouldn't it be nice if it did?

[SunSeeker]

66. K & R

[Ilsa]

67. Did she have body sculpting when she got her

Facial features feminized? Most 65 year old women don't have waistlines in the mid-20 inches. Most simply aren't shaped that way after childbirth and careers.

What bothers me is how fucking fake it all is. Not her being a woman now, but how everyone is gushing over the tv star who has had surgeries so she can look so lovely. My neighbor's son is transgendered. Couldn't afford the royal treatment that would have landed him in Vanity Fair. He's a big girl with big masculine facial features.

I'm sick of the phoniness being thrown at us. And I'm tired of the tv show being promoted over this. And I'm wondering how his ex-wife feels, being married to someone for so long and not really knowing who they are.

[WinkyDink]

76. Since Caitlyn isn't a 65-year-old bio-woman, the waistline hasn't been affected as with one. Maybe

it's a 32"?

Kris Jenner knew.

[WinkyDink]

72. Bruce was never known for his discerning taste in wives. Yet compared to the K-Klan, Caitlyn is

demure and refined!

It's sad that she's had such ridiculous role-models en famille!

[mopinko]

77. i wonder how much photoshopping they did.

and yeah, braless old hippie here had a real wtf moment when i saw that.
but, she is a republican/conservative. so not surprised that is her idea of womanly.

[Snobblevitch]

83. I have not read all of the replies here.

I also don't know if my comment belongs on this thread or another, but this is the Jenner thread that I saw.

I read somewhere that Jenner is being given some sort of 'courage' award. I have also read somewhere that Jenner is getting a television reality show ala the Kardashians. I wonder if the award is about having the courage to cash those checks from the cable television network and whatever endorsement deals that result from the program.

[fadedrose]

89. Ya, if it's so great to dress like a woman

why not a woman of 65, or 75?

Seems more of a downput of mature women than a complement to our gender. Most of us accept aging gracefully, and mostly wish that stuff wouldn't hurt so much and we'd have fewer diseases...not to keep us from flirting and dancing and dating (especially widows, divorcees), but just to cook good food, do the gardening, work on hobbies, BS with friends on the phone, your own cleaning, etc., the stuff that we do...maybe some hair dye and a good cut....a touch of lipstick...simple drugstore stuff.

I'm afraid she's not getting the best of life as much as we old girls do and the regimen she's chosen is probably going to bite her in the rear eventually and she'll wish she looked good in a pair of men's levi's again. But that said, I wish her luck. She wants this so badly...

[One_Life_To_Give]

92. As Caitlyn never got to be the Teenage Beauty

As Caitlyn never got to be the Teenage Beauty I can't begrudge her the chance to have that experience. Although much of what you see only has a false sense to it because it omits context. Caitlyn is some 8-10 inches taller than the average woman, combined with a chest that was 40+inches before any growth/implants. Any angle you look at her you will see more bulk than average. We need look no further than Britney Griner to see how terribly society treats those who defy the normative averages.

[Saphire]

93. exactly..whats wrong with being a 65yo woman.