Some White People Hate Black People. How is Economic Justice Going to Fix This?

[qwlauren35]

This is a follow up on 1StrongBlackMan's post.

I think the question is self explanatory.

[Smarmie Doofus]

1. It won't. But should we not pursue economic justice anyway? N/T

[mythology]

2. By itself, it probably won't

But it would put minorities in a position to not be economically forced to interact with the whites who do hate them. But also if minorities are more economically integrated with whites it would inherently provide exposure and cross cultural understanding through experience.

[1StrongBlackMan]

58. Really? How ...

I (my household) make(s) a pretty penny; yet, I am still forced to interact with whites that hate me ... specifically, the police that pulls me over, and tickets me, for a minor crack in my windshield ... seen from 100 feet away; or the shop keep that either follows me around or ignores me assuming that I am going to steal, or cannot afford to buy.

[daleanime]

3. Fix? No.

I don't think that any one thing will 'fix' the problems we have, especially racism. But help? Yes, I think it would. Don't you?

[notadmblnd]

13. I do. I think it would help

Perhaps If there were more opportunity for the poor of any ethnicity, there would be a lot less anger and resentment. Also, the more affluent wouldn't feel they are being over taxed to provide for those they feel game the system?

[daleanime]

24. Agree with the first part.....

but can't disagree enough with the last sentence. Nothing but a hollow cover for crap that needs to be washed away.

[notadmblnd]

26. You are right it is. But it is what the affluent have been taught to believe

and as long as they believe it- it is their reality. The way to change that reality is to raise up the poor economically.

[daleanime]

36. Taught to believe, no....

find convenient to say they believe, yes. I intent to give no slack on this. Not trying to make a jerk move, if I come across as a little gruff please don't take it personally.

[notadmblnd]

44. You honestly think that they haven't been taught to believe that?

Hell, republicans have been repeating that meme to the affluent since Reagan. Welfare queens driving Cadillacs. Yes, people were told that their tax dollars were going towards paying for that. It's what I think welfare reform in the 90's was about. Can't be giving those single mothers any money or food for their (fatherless) children unless we make them work for it. And it continues today, by the media and right wing politicians when they say things like people on food stamps shouldn't be able to buy and eat things like steak and seafood. The implication being that they are undeserving and gaming the system still.

Sure, they've been taught to believe it.

But we can agree to disagree.

[PowerToThePeople]

4. how do you propose to change the mind of a bigot?

All you can hope to do, imo, is minimize the effects of any strategies they may use in their application of their bigotry. Economic injustice is one of the major tools they use, imo.

[Hutzpa]

70. Well said, economic injustice is THE major tool that they have

which is available to them. It is for that very reason why some blacks who are in position of power tend to second guess
major decisions.

[bravenak]

5. It ain't. The racism does not allow for economic justice.

It will be trickle down economic justice just like it always was. Period. Because the racism does not allow for equal share based distrubution of opportunities or justice, economic - or otherwise.

[heaven05]

25. +1000

hit the mark again....

[bravenak]

34. Hey!!

Nice to see ya!

[salin]

31. Sadly - this ^^^

However, social justice - can build bridges that unite by breaking barriers down. Imagine how much momentum we could collectively have if through social justice progress - we truly united as a society - and how much economic justice we could then forcefully demand.

in one of my blended cynical, yet still idealistic moments.

[bravenak]

32. I agree. I think social justice will lead to economic justice.

But we can still do both, if we all do it together, all equal. I'm idealistic too.

[gollygee]

79. Totally agree

So long as there is racism, people of color will not and can not be included in it. Racism is a part of education, criminal justice, banking, and employment. All those things impact wealth. There can be no economic justice if there is racism impacting weath, and it's ridiculous for people to think otherwise. Trying to get economic justice without fighting racism is really just trying to help white people have more money. The word "justice" certainly doesn't fit.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. It wouldn't.

Social justice, however, would likely have an impact on correcting economic justice, because of the social justice issues entwined in it. Both need to be addressed. Both are important. But securing one's personal rights and freedoms will more than assuredly lead to a better economic situation, then the other way around.

[ismnotwasm]

12. Thank you!

Why is this not clear? To achieve economic justice social ills have to be redressed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. If not the economy, then what *laws* do you propose to fix it?

Economic inequality is a disease that exacerbates cultural tensions. In the absence of economic security, no amount of conscious raising, shaming or browbeating will mitigate it.

I've never experienced racial hatred between valued co-workers.

[Orsino]

8. Let's find out.

I believe that we will rediscover the fact that economic injustice fuels bigotry.

[jeepers]

9. Other than the color of a mans skin

The one consistent and observable fact in Americas black experience is poverty. We hate the poor. I believe racism is almost entirely about poverty.

[ismnotwasm]

11. I vehemently disagree.

[gollygee]

49. Then why are wealthy black people still victims of racism? n/t

[jeepers]

52. because racism isn't about the individual

but rather about how the group is perceived

[gollygee]

53. OK so it isn't about poverty then

if they're perceiving a group based on color of skin.

[jeepers]

54. not color of skin but lack of wealth and resources, ie poverty

[gollygee]

55. There are plenty of middle class and wealthy black people

who are known to be wealthy or middle class by the people discriminating against them, and they still face racial discrimination.

[jeepers]

61. Again, racism is not about the individual

[gollygee]

62. But it is about race.

[ismnotwasm]

10. It won't

Historically social justice drives economic justice anyway. Social justice starts small, perhaps just one person who snowballs a movement.

Economic justice reflects society, and the economic disparities between African Americans and Whites is case in point.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. You have it exactly backwards.

As nicely depicted in the movie Matewan, racial harmony has historically always been a consequence of the brotherhood of labor.

No amount of consciousness raising or wedge politics will create affinity between people who have no chance of ever becoming coworkers.

In fact, I'd argue that the axes upon which our political parties are polarized are a conscious effort to prevent any realization among the working class who the real enemies are.

[Fumesucker]

41. What I find interesting on DU is that middle class whites aren't hated nearly as much as poor ones

And yet middle class and wealthy whites vote Republican much more consistently than poor whites.

I very much agree with your last sentence and point to DU as a perfect example of how well and thoroughly the divisive propaganda works.

http://themonkeycage.org/blog/2012/03/23/voting-patterns-of-americas-whites-from-the-masses-to-the-elites/

Within any education category, richer people vote more Republican. In contrast, the pattern of education and voting is nonlinear. High school graduates are more Republican than non-HS grads, but after that, the groups with more education tend to vote more Democratic. At the very highest education level tabulated in the survey, voters with post-graduate degrees lean toward the Democrats. Except for the rich post-graduates; they are split 50-50 between the parties.

What does this say about America’s elites? If you define elites as high-income non-Hispanic whites, the elites vote strongly Republican. If you define elites as college-educated high-income whites, they vote moderately Republican.

There is no plausible way based on these data in which elites can be considered a Democratic voting bloc. To create a group of strongly Democratic-leaning elite whites using these graphs, you would need to consider only postgraduates (no simple college grads included, even if they have achieved social and financial success), and you have to go down to the below-$75,000 level of family income, which hardly seems like the American elites to me.

The patterns are consistent for all three of the past presidential elections. (The differences in the higher-income low-education category should not be taken seriously, as the estimates are based on small samples, as can be seen from the large standard errors for those subgroups.)

[ismnotwasm]

51. The movie Matewan is your source?

And you think the "brotherhood of labor" ends racism? Well, I don't agree but I haven't seen the movie--it looks awesome.

[gollygee]

64. The history of labor unions is not by any means a story of racial harmony

Where are you getting that from? A fictional movie? Read some history books. Racism has been a part of every system in the US, including labor unions.

Here's an example: http://www.salon.com/2014/02/02/labor_pains_the_racist_postwar_policies_that_set_workplace_equality_way_back/

[lumberjack_jeff]

66. Matewan isn't fictional, and unions helped to break down barriers, especially after wwII. n/t

[gollygee]

69. The depiction of it is fictional

it is based on fact, but there were racial problems in unions way past WWII.

[lumberjack_jeff]

72. The decline of unions corresponds with an increase in racism.

It is no coincidence that Ronald Reagan and Lee Atwater had two main tactics:
1) destroy unions
2) build a republican majority through a southern strategy of exploiting and cultivating racism.

If the former was counterproductive to the latter, they would have had different strategy.

[gollygee]

74. No, they just both helped them achieve their goals

They hate unions because they don't want workers to be paid well - they are shills for corporations. They did the southern strategy to win elections. They aren't related except that the same people did them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

81. They are absolutely related.

Destroying worker solidarity destroys social solidarity. Both serve republican goals

[gollygee]

82. That doesn't make destroying unions and the southern strategy related

They were different Republian actions done for different reasons.

[jeepers]

65. Aren't social and economic justice the same thing?

If the black man has the same chance to get the job or the promotion that a white man has, or If he is paid the same for the same job as his white counterpart, haven't I realized to some degree both social and economic justice? How does one exist without the other?
Might I not say then that if I achieve economic justice I have achieved social justice as well? Is then that not the same as saying poverty equals social injustice.

[qwlauren35]

67. Nope, not the same.

When we have the same jobs for the same pay, but a cop is still shooting us and Southern white men still want to hang us for looking at white women, then we have achieved economic justice without social justice.

They aren't the same.

[AgingAmerican]

15. As money shifts away from the poor and middle class

The oligarchy gets richer, power shifts away from the general population, and civil rights erode further. Economics are directly related to civil rights.

The only way to stop hate is to educate your kids. Uneducated people hate and pass that hatred down to their kids. A persons level of bigotry is inversely proportional to their parents education level.

Educated parents raise informed children.

Sadly though, there will always be bigots of all colors. Some folks have enlarged hypothalamus. This physical deformity makes them emotional and fearful which leads to bigotry. Those particular folks are hopeless cases.

[Baitball Blogger]

16. When you look closely at a dominant white subculture,

(the kind that you are likely to find in the outskirts of major cities in Florida), you learn quickly that money talks. Put soldiers out in the field and convince residents that these soldiers have quick access to public money through economic development incentives, or that their children can be fast tracked into popular universities, and you can cultivate the necessary number of useful idiots to push any programs you want.

Boom. That's how you create a small privileged society that exists in a large populated area. That's how you reinforce economic inequality because most of the people in these groups are Caucasian. And that's by design.

The only change is that they are savvy enough to recruit token minorities so that it doesn't look exclusive.

[el_bryanto]

17. It won't

I think that both economic justice and social justice are worth fighting for, though.

But economic justice isn't going to fix our police departments antipathy towards black people, which seems to be the most pressing issue of the day.

In a way economic justice is a band aid to that issue; yes people will be happier and more settled if they have more money. It will probably lower the chances of riots and the like. But it doesn't fix the underlying issue of police officers killing black men, seemingly with impunity in a lot of cases.

Bryant

[jwirr]

43. Your last paragraph describes the idea of bread and circuses. These were used in Rome to keep

the populations quiet regardless of the circumstances.

I think many of our social programs are in place for that reason. They never did really provide enough to help anyone out of the hole. But they are being cut now - wonder how long the people will take it?

[Iggo]

18. Economic justice isn't for fixing hate. It's for fixing economic injustice. (n/t)

[jberryhill]

19. Lots of people hate lots of people, and manage to conduct civil business

There was a spate of recent postings along the lines of "tolerance isn't enough".

I agree with that sentiment.

What "tolerance" is, is the minimum required baseline.

You can't require anyone to like, accept, approve of... whatever... anyone else.

What can be required is that whatever private animus someone may have be kept that way for the purpose of conducting business, passing laws, establishing policies, and so on.

It's perfectly okay for someone to hate the bejeebers out of anyone they like. What is not okay is for them to act on that hatred.

I'm free to walk down the street and just seethe with hatred over people who have freckles. That's fine, and there's nothing to be done about that. What I'm not free to do is to treat them unfairly in my business or in any other public or commercial transaction.

If you think it is necessary to "make everybody like everybody else" then, no, that's just not going to happen with humans. But it is not necessary to reach that target in order to have a decent society.

[840high]

29. Wise post.

[qwlauren35]

20. BTW

I have not said that economic justice is not worth fighting for.

But I believe that economic justice can be achieved and black people would still be hated. LGBT people would still be hated.

Frankly, I'm tired of being hated.

And I've noticed that I don't get much respect when I put social justice ahead of economic justice. We can have an economically unjust society in which people at the bottom are "OK". We've had that. It may never get any better than that. I don't anticipate getting "a fair share". I don't consider that realistic.

And I guess, I see so many people here in DU fighting for economic justice, I don't feel an urgent need to be an activist in this area. But SOCIAL justice for BLACK people... (because LGBT people get a reasonable amount of support here), is where my activism is. It's where my heart is. It's personal.

So, when I hear "both", or "they are intertwined", I think that's a cop-out. We only have so much energy. If you knew that you could only give your energy to one cause, which would it be? Social injustice or economic injustice? I know which one I would choose.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. "because LGBT people get a reasonable amount of support here"

I think that is relative, especially if you aren't LGBT. Also, stating "both are important" and "they are intertwined" are not cop-outs, it's reality. Now, the importance level is what people are debating. Despite what you have said in parts of your post, I agree the social aspects take precedent in my life. To me, it is personal. I live in a state that just "allowed" me to marry legally. I am in a state where I could lose my home for being gay or be fired for being gay. LGBT are quite vulnerable too. So whereas our rights may not be your focus, our rights are still part of the struggle for social equality.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. The thing that made me accept GLBT people is working with them.

The thing that made me accept black people is working with them.

I doubt any amount of consciousness raising would have mitigated spending those years unemployed.

Cutthroat competition for jobs manifests as hatred of the competition - "them".

[Behind the Aegis]

30. No doubt it did.

Just as you would have learned from them were you living in squalor and on equal standing, except that you would still only be equal in economic standing, not socially.

[lumberjack_jeff]

40. I don't think that's true.

People living in squalor will use any perceived advantage to obtain their basic needs, and have a psychological tendency to blame their misfortune on others.

Teamwork only helps if the members of your team have some perceived ability to contribute to the wellbeing of the whole, and individuals will be socially and economically valued on perceived merit.

[Behind the Aegis]

46. Same could be said of your other example.

Some will always look for the scapegoat. The issue is if there isn't law substantiating the bigotry, then more of an equal footing is possible economically.

[riderinthestorm]

39. A sincere question for you BtA

Overall, it seems the gay community has prospered economically in the past several decades - they have higher income and education levels from the studies I've read.

That said, do you think their economic and educational success has been a part of why gays are now finally finding societal success - marriage, acceptance etc.? They had to have the economic success first before society gave in and acknowledged them as equals (yes, I realize that everything's not perfect yet but overall things are improving by leaps"and bounds).

I'm wondering if there's relevance to what's more important first: social v economic, as it pertains to the AA community.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. I don't know that isn't "a cause and correlation" quandry.

Personally, many of the studies about "gay wealthy" are dubious at best, and lead to the myth of economically secure gays. Of course, even those who are "economically secure" face the possibilities of having it ripped away because of existing laws which discriminate against GLBT people. Remember too, gays were in the shadows for centuries, it wasn't until 1969 at a RIOT that we started to move on to the national stage. Despite what some think, our obtaining our rights has been long and hard, and we have had many set backs, some of which didn't "care" if we were financially sound or not.

The one "advantage" some GLBT have over other minorities, especially African-Americans, is it isn't always obvious who is and isn't gay, a card many have played to their advantage. So, it is the "hidden" aspect which may have allowed for some GLBT to prosper.

[One_Life_To_Give]

21. One piece of steel can't hold up a building

But it's absence can bring the building down.

[betterdemsonly]

28. It is all inter-related. Without economic justice the wealth disparities between

groups get exacerbated and that encourages stereotypes. I do not believe there would be as much racial animosity in this country if we hadn't lost all those industrial jobs in the 8os and beyond. Most of the riots have happened in old rust belt cities like Baltimore and Saint Louis.

[Throd]

33. Some white people will always hate black people no matter what.

Also, some (fill in the blank) will always hate (fill in the blank) no matter what.

[upaloopa]

35. Here is a quote from the movie "Mississippi Burning." which is a movie all of us can relate to

Mrs. Pell: It's not good for you to be here.

Agent Anderson: Why?

Mrs. Pell: It's ugly. This whole thing is so ugly. Have you any idea what it's like to live with all this? People look at us and only see bigots and racists. Hatred isn't something you're born with. It gets taught. At school, they said segregation what's said in the Bible... Genesis 9, Verse 27. At 7 years of age, you get told it enough times, you believe it. You believe the hatred. You live it... you breathe it. You marry it.

[jwirr]

37. Obviously it by itself is not going to. Just look at the case of our own president.

[Egnever]

38. It will never be fixed

Plenty of studies done on bigotry and xenophobia. Doesn't matter what color ethnic group religious sect etc all have members that fear or hate the other and have since the beginning of time.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. I can't speak for the OP, but when I am talking about it, I am talking "institutional level."

As you and another poster said, there will always be an "other." The problem is not so much the personal bigotry, or societal bigotries, which can only be addressed through education, the issue more than a few of us are talking about is the institutional level; i.e. laws. Things like reproductive rights, gerrymandering, voting rights, access to housing, employment, personal relations, and equity in the eyes of the law are the issues under consideration. Changing the economic ways to make everyone equal only makes them equal economically. Changing the social laws makes everyone equal legally, which would inevitably affect economics. I don't think it would work the other way.

[unblock]

42. you can't have economic justice, not for long anyway, without social justice.

let's say somehow you could magically reorganize the economy such that the distribution of wealth and salaries was equal by race.

as long as there's lopsided hatred against one group or another, that group will eventually suffer economically, and we'll be back to the same economic injustice before the magic.

[Zorra]

47. Nothing will fix it, but current minorities will soon be the national majority,

and all those poor, angry racist white folks are just going to have to eat shit after that.

[hifiguy]

50. Both social and economic justice need to be pursued.

But there are some people who can't and won't be fixed.

[1StrongBlackMan]

56. Damn, this fell off the front page quickly ...

I saw it ... I responded to a single post and had to search for this one.

[qwlauren35]

59. C'mon now

Are you really surprised? The riot was on Monday, Freddie Gray's death was 3 weeks ago, Walter Scott's death was over a month ago, Ferguson was a year ago.

It's just not a priority. TPP is a priority. Bernie and Hillary are priorities. Economic injustice is a priority.

There will always be hatred. It's a fact... get used to it.

Well, frankly, there will always be economic disparity... get used to it.

[qwlauren35]

63. Oh yeah...

And the only reason your post stayed up was because it turned into a pro/anti Hillary rant. Not sure how that happened.

[LittleBlue]

57. That's why I think the black community can only rely on itself

After learning about how crack was introduced to black neighborhoods, it made me realize the black community can only depend on themselves. There is no benefit for whites to, as you say, "fix this."

In general people look out for themselves and those who look like them.

[JI7]

60. much of the opposition to govt programs is based on racism

How some view it as blacks or other minorities taking from whites.

[Starry Messenger]

68. White voters have practically destroyed the New Deal.

Once some of those programs were opened up to non-whites, the country realigned and old New Deal Dems became Republicans.

The only thing keeping any vestiges of economic justice is maintaining access to voting for non-whites. If we had several million more African-American women voters, the U.S. would be in much better shape, based on voting history for the last several decades.

[romanic]

71. Some white people are always going to hate black people

and Hispanics, and Asians, and other immigrants, and other white people with different political views, etc

Honestly, just let them die out and teach the younger kin of these folks to not hate and treat everyone with equal respect. Same goes to the younger generation of all colors and ethnicities.

[seveneyes]

73. Hate has no monolithic component

It is a learned trait, not inherited. Pointing plastic fingers at any one race is to perpetuate it.

[romanic]

75. Yep.

The best way to battle racism is knowledge and a shedding of "us vs them" mentalities prevalent in our society.

[Lil Missy]

76. It won't. n/t

[Warpy]

77. Economic justice might be a start

Right now, every single black person, even the ones in expensive suits and carrying leather messenger bags or attache cases, are automatically clicked into that "poor/underclass" category by cops and bigots alike, assumed to be undereducated, sporadically employed (if that), making income by illegal means since legal means are closed, and irresponsible.

True economic justice might begin to change this, at the very least.

I knew white kids who thought they hated black people until they got out of high school and started to work side by side with them. Still, the black people they didn't know suffered from the "underclass" prejudice.

[DonCoquixote]

78. it is not a complete half but

with economic justice, people cannot hide from prejudice, kind of the way many people dismissed the Chinese before they owned us. Itm without social jsutice, is useless, but it will give social jsutice the muscle to say "you try to take things away from us, and we will hire lawyers that are nasty too."

[immoderate]

80. What's new?

--imm