Can you believe my damned union? (

[Ichingcarpenter]

[RiverLover]

1. That is awesome. Love all of it, but esp the last line.

Thanks for sharing this!!

[n2doc]

2. And most importantly, with all these benefits, my company might not

be able to attract a new CEO and give them the pay and golden parachute that they deserve!

[countryjake]

3. Right ON!

[Fred Sanders]

4. Without a union you get a raise from $9 to 9.50/hour and you better be fucking grateful | Walmart

[SnakeEyes]

21. Actually pretty close

Walmart is moving starting pay to $10/hr!

[Enthusiast]

5. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!

[Hoppy]

6. Not all unions are wonderful.

Grocery workers' unions in several grocery chains have capitulated to 29 hour max. work week and $10.00 (plus a few cents) starting salary.

[Brickbat]

9. #notallunions

[turbinetree]

11. HEDGE FUNDS (Albertson's and Safeway)

Two grocery stores have been taken over by a HEDGE FUND by CERBUS CAPITAL, some of you may remember that Cerbus had a stake in guns, may still have a stake in guns, this firm is nothing more than a vulture capitalist and could be said they are a Authoritarian Capitalists.
When you have the above competing against Wal Mart that speaks volumes as to why they are cutting hours and human beings will go to some low life firm like Wal Mart, which by the way is the largest non-union firm in the country and is by the way kicking and screaming that they have to pay some kind of a health benefits ( and the media is now calling them darlings for giving raises) or heaven forbid give part-time workers a whole big $1.50 hour raise working 20 hours a week but there employees still have to get government food stamps to survive (which the republicans want to cut and Wal Mart gives to republican causes ---go figure) and to top it all off this is the same firm (Wal Mart) that has items made in China, ship the parts over there to have it made and then put it on a dolly or container ship and have no duty fees on the tariff side when it is brought back into the country, and guess what the TPP will give the five little Walton's more money and own more wealth than the bottom 2/3 of the population in America, remember this is the same firm that SHUT down a store in Canada because they UNIONIZED---and people still go into this place to get ripped off, and then they whine and complain that they are not making it on wages, benefits vacation--you name it---go figure

[Generic Other]

12. That would explain why my local Safeway

was considering charging for parking. I guess the idea did not please customers.

[turbinetree]

75. Property

Remember Safeway more than likely has a rental fee wherever they are located and when the property owner decided to raise the rental fee and the firm raises prices and must have in the agreement that they will modernize the rental property, I do not understand the parking fees, unless they are in a MALL and there is a parking garage

[mountain grammy]

17. Well said!

Those who aren't doing so well in union jobs need to:

1. Express full support and get involved in the union. Solidarity wins contracts.
2. Understand that if the union is unable to negotiate a better contract, it will almost always beat the alternative.. i.e. Walmart. Not everyone can work for Costco.
3. Organize, organize, organize.

[turbinetree]

74. Unions

I respect UNIONS because they are more democratic than a corporations, that is a fact.
And we as a society had better learn real quick that what's gives us our benefits are Unions negotiating for "everyone" working in this country and the world against the greed

[A HERETIC I AM]

83. Just as a point of accuracy...

CERBERUS is not a "Hedge Fund" nor is Safeway or Albertsons owned by a "hedge fund by Cerberus".

Cerberus is a private equity firm and they do not operate a hedge fund.

You may not think this is of any importance, but there is a significant difference between the two.

Hedge funds do not buy grocery store chains.

[turbinetree]

87. Cerbus is a Hedge Fund

"Mar 06, 2014 · After a long courtship, private equity giant Cerberus Capital Management agreed to buy Safeway Safeway for over $9 billion"
"Jan 10, 2013 · Grocery chain Albertsons will be sold to an affiliate of Cerberus Capital Management in a larger $3.3 billion deal, officials said Thursday"

[A HERETIC I AM]

93. Then you clearly have no idea what a hedge fund is....

Or What they do.

Got it. You don't know what you're talking about.

[sulphurdunn]

13. The members have the right

to change the leadership or decline to accept a contract offer if they are displeased with it. That's why it's called a union. However, some unions have stronger bargaining positions than others.

[Major Nikon]

49. So what do you think the workers would have gotten without a union?

[druidity33]

60. as a UFCW member, i say...

please, tell me more. With links please...

[MannyGoldstein]

7. And people say that Stalin is dead!

He's just assumed the guise of a union thug.

[sulphurdunn]

14. Actually, you're more likely to find him

behind the big desk in a CEOs office.

[cascadiance]

34. But Stalin's money and power live on through the Koch brothers!

I guess that's why the Koch brothers love unions so much!

[ProfessorGAC]

8. That's A Very Smart Letter

Way to go Ken.

[B Calm]

10. K&R

[ibewlu606]

15. Loving the discussion on unions!

I am so very pleased that there seems to be more and more threads regarding unions. It is about time people come to the realization that there is a direct correlation to the shrinking middle-class and the corporate war on organized labor.

[unionthug777]

20. greetings

from a LU494 member.

IBEW !!!

[mountain grammy]

76. Solidarity

and welcome to DU.

[Buenaventura]

16. I love the letter, but far too many union opponents simply won't get it. n/t

[mountain grammy]

18. K & R

times a million... great letter.

[unionthug777]

19. damn unions !!!

long ago I had a hospital bill for more than 25,000 dollars and my damn union insurance paid most of it !!! I think our share was around 125.00....see how they are !!!!

unions !!!

[hfojvt]

22. written in the 1990s

when the minimum wage was $4.25 an hour and $18.33 was much higher rate than it is today?

$18.33 in 1993, for example, is equivalent to $30.03 today.

Which has been one of my complaints about the union - they just create an elite, rather than helping the entire working class.

Yes, yes I know, those higher union wages trickle down to all the non-union workers. So there I am in 1993 working in a factory where I make $5.10 an hour. Woohoo, I am at 120% of the minimum wage. An if this union guy goes on strike, I am supposed to support him in solidarity rather than take his job and work it for $13 an hour. I mean, how dare I be so selfish and not support somebody who makes 3.5 times as much as I do? And especially if I am unemployed, how dare I not support somebody who has a great job, and instead try to get a job for myself?

When a union is on strike, even though they are already on the high end of the labor force, it just seems to me like they are saying "I want more for me" instead of fighting for the WHOLE working class.

Although I do remember a UPS strike from the 1990s when some foolish writer was chastizing the union saying - "they are not even doing this for their OWN benefit".

Now I know some people are gonna say "instead of tearing them down, fight for your own union". But, of course, that really isn't possible since most unions, especially now, tend to be skilled laborers like pilots and football players. That just sounds like the same argument as the rightwing uses - pull yourself up by your own bootstraps instead of resenting the rich.

[TBF]

23. "union - they just create an elite, rather than helping the entire working class"

On what fu**ing planet? Seriously, get a grip.

[hfojvt]

39. compared to my $17,000 a year

$60,000 a year looks pretty elite from where I sit.

Not to mention the union stagehands at Carnegie hall, making $270,000 a year.

Nice work if you can get it.

Most of the working class can't.

[TBF]

47. Most of the working class can't because

the right wing (from which you seem to be getting your arguments) has been diligently breaking the unions since Reagan came on board. Remember the air traffic controllers?

If I were you I'd look at those stage hands and wonder why the hell I was bashing unions on a democratic message board. Personally in your shoes I'd be looking for a union or creating one rather than bashing them.

[Major Nikon]

50. I remember the air traffic controllers endorsing Saint Ronnie

Just sayin'

[TBF]

64. Before or after they were replaced by scabs? nt

[Major Nikon]

70. ...

In the 1980 presidential election, PATCO (along with the Teamsters and the Air Line Pilots Association) refused to back President Jimmy Carter, instead endorsing Republican Party candidate Ronald Reagan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_%281968%29#Beginnings

[TBF]

80. That would be before -

people have been fooled by charlatans in the past and they will be fooled again. I know it's frustrating. I look at family back home having trouble rubbing 2 nickels together and wonder why the heck they are still calling themselves "conservatives". I guess it's partly education but we do have the Koch Bros. fighting against us and we know they are capable of hiring PR firms to do their work for them.

[cui bono]

56. +1

[Skittles]

51. you really don't get it

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/opinion/nicholas-kristof-the-cost-of-a-decline-in-unions.html?_r=1

and is that stagehand the new welfare gal driving a Cadillac?

[mountain grammy]

77. Thanks for posting! Read this, union doubters, read this!

Then I will await your post admitting you were also wrong.

Good factual piece, except for the little swipe at public sector unions at the end.

[Major Nikon]

53. So because most of the working class can't make $270K, unions are bad?

The reason all those people you mentioned have unions is not because they are "elite". It's because they recognized the only think keeping them from the mercy of their employer is a contract.

Most of the working class can form and join unions. The reason why they don't is because the far right wing has convinced them they shouldn't look out for their own interests. You seem to be helping in that regard.

Just sayin'

[Jakes Progress]

88. Join and support a union.

If there isn't one for your place of employment, organize one.

The point of a union is solidarity. As unions die, everyone will work for 17k. It took blood and death to bring unions into being against the power class. If you think you have a chance of making 60K as a member of the working class without unions, you don't really understand what has happened to you.

[unionthug777]

24. most unions tend to be pilots and football players....

what about
boilermakers
bricklayers
carpenters
electricians ( me )
elevator constructors
glaziers
heat and frost insulators
iron workers
laborers
painters
operating engineers
masons
plumbers
roofers
sheet metal workers
steam fitters
teamsters
and many others....just saying

[hfojvt]

41. are you saying then

that an electrician is NOT skilled?

Most of those look like skilled trades, and most laborers are NOT unionized.

[unionthug777]

63. i am just pointing out

there are a lot more unions than just pilots and football players. I have great respect for laborers, by the way. and most of them were union.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

73. Most laborers are not unionized?

Except for the ones who are in the Laborer's Union.

If it is a union job site with union tradesmen and women, it will have union laborers. At my brother's company, the management owners/insiders kids and relatives maintain laborer Union status because the retirement is more "generous" - presumably due to excess wear and tear on the body.

My brother just died unexpectedly. But at least his wife and his kid who is in college will receive his $5500 per month pension benefit - he earned every fucking penny of it.. The job probably killed him but at least we don't have to worry about my sister in law and my nephew going without.

[bvf]

30. Objection.

"$18.33 in 1993, for example, is equivalent to $30.03 today."

What's your point with this?


Are you saying that's an unreasonable wage for a skilled worker in the chemicals industry? I might have missed it, but I didn't see anything in the letter to indicate the writer's line of work beyond the union name.

[hfojvt]

37. what I am mainly saying

is, do NOT talk to me about solidarity when you make $60,000 a year and I make $17,000.

The argument that his $60,000 salary somehow trickles down to help me, is one that I do not buy.

Rather than asking the poor worker to support the rich union worker, why not ask it the other way around?

[BubbaFett]

42. $60,000 per year is not rich, honey.

Your anti-union stance is pure right wing garbage.

[Go Vols]

44. +1

[TBF]

48. + 1000 nt

[Starry Messenger]

61. +1

[bvf]

52. So in your view,

everyone represented by a union should make the same wage, regardless of occupation, experience, education, and skill set.

That's just stupid. You're obviously aiming for divisive, but your argument is, well, stupid.

[cui bono]

58. The only person who has said "trickle down" here is you.

And we all know who else used that terminology.

[neverforget]

67. As a union member, I want EVERYONE to have the same wages and benefits

that I receive.

[quakerboy]

81. The argument that because someone makes 17k

Everyone else should be reduced to 17k is rather.. troublesome.

Lets get more unions going so that more people can make 60k. Lets get more people into a living wage rather than bitching because a few people still have a living wage. That make more sense?

[Kermitt Gribble]

31. You are the one making the right wing argument

by wanting to tear down the unions because you don't have the same benefits. Why should you not be a scab? Really??

Can't believe I'm reading this shit on a Democratic message board. Times have changed - for the worse.

[hfojvt]

38. yes, really

I am for the working class

like Eugene Debs said, if there is a lower class, I am IN it.

This guy with his $60,000 a year job? He cannot say that. He's well above the median income, all by himself.

Does his $60,000 a year salary help to pay my heat bill? Do his medical benefits help to pay my medical bills?

Yet all of us who have so much less, are supposed to be all dedicated to supporting HIM in a quest either to get more or to preserve what he has?

What sacrifices is HE making for US?

[BubbaFett]

43. What do you do for yourself?

You inability to make a decent living is not the fault of the working class union person.

[Go Vols]

45. No shit

[Ramses]

46. Yea, instead of working to raise ALL worker's income

and to have the chance to have actual representation and good benefits, let tear this guy down so the boss can get even richer. I truly cannot believe Im seeing such garbage on a Democratic website.

[mountain grammy]

78. I'm sorry, I can't understand your argument

you say you're for the working class but don't want anyone to make more money than you do?

I'm sorry you're stuck in a low paying job. That is the America we live in today, precisely because working people like you have bought into this right wing bullshit about unions.

Divide and conquer. You're helping with the ground war on that one.

[Kermitt Gribble]

79. $60,000/yr is not working class?

How about applying for a union job? Or pushing for union representation at your current job?

[quakerboy]

82. This aint about sacrifice.

And it aint about "trickle down". Its about having a working economy. Your argument to rip people who are just making it down to the level of people who aren't making enough to live on is just rediculous. Its looks like RW thinking, wanting to degrade everyone to the lowest common denominator. Instead of thinking, how can we raise people up and get a society that works for as many people as possible, its all about making sure that everyone is suffering equally.

Except I notice you don't seem to have any grudge against the people who are actually working to lower wages, the wealth crowd. Just the people who work to raise wages.

That seems a bit off.

[Drahthaardogs]

86. Uh Newsflash. They work for their members who pay dues...

Where did you come up with the idea that they work for the entire working class? So you think a union that you pay no dues towards somehow owes you representation? How do you figure that?

[polynomial]

25. The Media hates America

Many Unions have the ethics and integrity that is responsible for what everyday people just assume always existed. Here is where the mainstream media covers up the basics in history of the working man in the Union.

That is to say the work week was established by Unions to forty hours.

Overtime also a Union negotiation for time and a half at forty eight hours and double time for Sunday and Holidays.

Holidays are established by Unions.

Vacation is established by Unions. Etc…

The power of the media today has bamboozled America in those concepts of the work place, more over in the education, and entertainment paradigm too.

Exampled in education in the free air television that is supposed to serve the needs of society has inverted this system turning the media system on Americans to control behavior via commercialism that lie.

Especially political commercials that can lie, deceive, and be out right slander. That is the wrong way to go and it must change.

[JohnnyRingo]

26. I'm a union retiree and I worked with people like that

Last edited Fri Feb 20, 2015, 01:34 PM - Edit history (3)

I worked 30 years for a subsidiary of GM and walked out for the last time in 2003 at the age of 49 with a full pension. I'm not wealthy, but I get $24k a year not to work. I don't mind revealing that figure because we all got the same after a lifetime with the company. We were all equal, and that parity is exactly the problem many have with unions

Regardless that 30 and out would never have happened in a non-union shop, I worked with union brothers and sisters who insisted that the national union did nothing for them and union dues were a waste of money. They felt their personal values and work ethic would always compensate them according to their incredible value to the company. To them, the union stood in their way while rewarding the lazy. Indeed, they felt the union was standing in their way because every one of them was the hardest working employee in the plant and they resented that everyone earned the same hourly wage and benefits.

I worked with them and they were usually the biggest shirkers in the building. In a competitive work environment like WalMart they'd be at the bottom of the compensation totem pole until old age and limited mobility moved them into the part time greeter position.

Since unions are the single biggest source of income for the Democratic party I can't take it personal. Every "right to work" law begins with eliminating dues to starve the party of cash flow and some workers believe the corporate propaganda that it's about freedom from oppressive union dues. Ironic that such ignorant and gullible people are the ones who believe they're more valuable in the workplace than others.

[B Calm]

27. +1 Couldn't agree more!

[zentrum]

72. Love this! n/t

[KentuckyWoman]

94. very well put

thank you

[bvf]

28. Wonderful post. n/t.

[niyad]

29. most excellent

[calimary]

32. Oh the nerve of it! Damn union!

[bbgrunt]

33. The only way to mute the overwhelming

economic corporate power to exploit workers is to form a countervailing power of workers. That is a UNION.

And yet, there are many workers who would rather resent unions than join them. It's rather like people voting against their own self-interest.

[Lucky Luciano]

35. Only thing I don't like is the seniority rights.

Stronger, faster, and smarter should be entitled to leap frog past the others - ie a meritocracy.

[Jakes Progress]

55. A lovely bit of plutocrat propaganda.

What do you need to leap to? Who do you need to leap over? How do you know your are stronger and faster and smarter? Who gets to say?

How about working with your co-workers instead of against them?

[Lucky Luciano]

62. The best ones always stand out.

The smart ones usually stand out pretty quickly, so deciding who is at the top of the game is pretty easy.

Where to leap to? That's obvious - the higher paid job as the boss...and a good boss works well with everyone.

I never had to deal with this, but my wife is Japanese and had to deal with the seniority that is part of the culture there. She found that it was quite frustrating to report to people when she was far more competent - I believe that - she is one of those go-getter types that never procrastinates and rarely makes mistakes. She fit in much better here in the US. She is a housewife now, but she could get out there and crush it again if she wanted to.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

84. Lol.

Mitt Romney and a George Bush were at the of the game in the business world.

I'm sure your wife was the smartest most bestest most competent hard worker in the company.


See: post 26

[Lucky Luciano]

85. I guess I don't work in a commoditized work

...environment where there is no chance to stand out - the post you referenced said nobody was better at their job than anyone else (roughly). I guess in that situation, nothing distinguishes a person outside of time on the job.

However, let's say that there is some process that has to occur every day at the office and that this process requires several people doing some manual stuff with good chances for human error. If one of those people took some initiative to write a program that automated the process with less chance for error, then more time could be spent on revenue generating activities instead of operational stuff. This person should be entitled to get ahead regardless of time on the job.

[Jakes Progress]

89. So you think that without unions

the working class would be rewarded for hard work? If so, you are a victim of the propaganda campaign the people like bush, romney, and koch have been pushing ro fifty years. Their propaganda has worked. People who think that their particular brand of gumption and hard work will be rewarded by the bosses just because the bosses will always do the right thing are the proof of the effectiveness of the campaign.

[Lucky Luciano]

91. I didn't oppose unions. Only the seniority rules. nt

[Jakes Progress]

95. Just one of the things that make them work, you mean.

Solidarity is solidarity.

You never answered the question about who decides who gets to jump the seniority. If you don't see the problem with that, then you don't understand the workplace and why unions and union rules matter.

[Lucky Luciano]

98. The boss decides - perhaps with input from others. The boss may be a higher ranked Union member.

Surely, as an experienced worker of some kind or another, you can identify the best workers?! People are not that stupid really - the good ones really do stand out.

I can't give a clean algorithm to separate the best from the rest. It takes judgment as all situations are different.

[Jakes Progress]

99. How sweet.

You think businesses will turn into a meritocracy if you get rid of unions. O to be young and idealistic again.

The rules of seniority were enacted by unions to do away with management misbehavior - jumping pretty girls over others, putting the wife's second cousin in charge of things, promoting only the kiss-ups, and mainly doing away with anyone who would think of starting a union.

There is no algorithm. And just how many managers with good judgement have you had. I can count mine on one hand.

Your workplace eden does not exist.

[Lucky Luciano]

100. Yet again - I am not in favor of getting rid of unions.

I only had one bad manager. Outside of that, I have done fine - well, there was the other manager that was a pain in the ass, but he got me paid very well, so all is forgiven there.

My promotions have been at a good meritocratic clip.

[Jakes Progress]

101. Just the rules that make them work.

You favor the parts of unions that mean you make more money. But you don't favor the parts that see to it that everyone does well or that call for your sacrifice. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but again, you don't get how unions work, or why they work they way they do, or even the reasons for them. I hate to break it to you, buy your "meritocratic" clip just might be seen by others you work with as something else. You have to view with an eye to your fellow workers. If you can't, then you might just as well be an independent contractor. Good luck moving ahead with that. Ask an uber driver.

I'm glad you support unions in principle though. Look into the history of unions and what sacrifices others have made that give us the ability to be ho hum about them. Our way of life is based on the rules that these unions put into effect to achieve solidarity. Really. It would be an interesting study for you. See if you can find any reason why seniority rules might be in effect. Open up to that.

[samplegirl]

36. My husband worked for 31years in a non union shop

It decided to sell out to a Japanese Company and they hired old employees back at a very low pay scale. Needless to say........all upper management (formans) were left go. Two long years with no employment and back to school with student loans my husband was one of the lucky ones who landed a Union job with the Department of Transportation snow plowing at a much lower pay scale than his factory job but the benifits are worth it. As most people know it is very hard to find a job at age 55.

[Liberal_in_LA]

40. kick

[Jakes Progress]

54. Starting with koch's papa.

They destruction of the American life was begun when billionaires began the propaganda campaign that destroyed unions. They rightly figured that unions were the only thing working people had to defend against their desire to rule like the plutocrats of the 1890's. They have succeeded so well that even on DU, you sense union animosity.

The need for unions is a lesson that today's generation will have to learn all over again - at their own pain.

[ibewlu606]

57. You got it wrong Brother.

HFOJVT, you have fallen into the classic trap of blaming unions for your lot in life, when the real cause is the employer who is exploiting you. Why is the union member who makes $60K a year your enemy, but the "benevolent" company owner who is getting rich off of YOUR labor and not fairly compensating you, is your friend? I grew up in a culture of union animus, and it wasn't until I actually joined a union did I become informed that unions built the middle-class. Many laws that protect workers (which Americans take for granted) are a direct result of union members who fought, bled and sometimes died for. HFOJVT, you have more in common with me and other union members than you do with the rich who would have you believe otherwise. To paraphrase George Carlin: It's a rich man's club, and you ain't in it!

[cui bono]

59. I think you meant to reply to hhfojvt's post directly... well said.

And welcome to DU!

[TBF]

65. Excellent post -

welcome to DU!

[flying rabbit]

66. +3

[Jakes Progress]

90. Well said. Even if not in the right thread.

If your intent was to reply to HFOJVT instead of the original poster, you can fix it so that is reflected.

Welcome to DU. Your argument was flawless.

[DesertDawg]

92. Not all Unions are the same

And some Unions, especially in the Construction trades are exploiting the workers just as bad as the non- Union. I've been trying to get into one of the trades Unions for three years now, after three years of being blown off the Business Agent suddenly wanted to talk.... Come in at the very bottom, counting none of my experience in the trade and go through a second Apprenticeship. Now sitting in front of this bozo is a highly skilled tradesmen with an established client base and exemplar reputation coming with him, as well as a small business I would like to grow from a part time one man operation into a full time business. I also offered up two leads to two other businesses receptive to discussing going Union.

Despite offering that He was more concerned with screwing me and my family over to benefit the Businesses needing workers. From what I've heard from others this particular District is well known for being Anti- Worker.

Some of us WISH we could be Union! I would love to stop living week to week and stressing over stretching my meager Right To Work paychecks! Sadly some Unions just don't want us it seems like.

[AZ Progressive]

68. Can you believe my damned union? I only get paid enough to be able to support a family and have a good life!

[Jakes Progress]

96. But, but . . . where's your private jet.

Supporting a family and having a good life is not enough for some here. They feel they deserve more than their fellow workers because they are special. You know what kind of animal those were in Animal Farm. Yep. That's them.

One of the propaganda victories of the koch-types is to dangle mansions and bangles in front of people and tell them that they can have that if they don't help others, if they just push themselves in front of everyone else. Gordon Gecko's dream.

I worked for a while in a school where most of the kids were from homes of the upper 2%. They saw Wall Street and thought that Gecko was the hero and that Charlie Sheen was the union-loving villain who ruined things. That kind of thinking has become too prevalent in those who grew up in a world where unions are mocked and derided on the national news daily. They grow up with no knowledge of how unions were formed and why they came about. It's not in their history lessons. The movement that gave them the life they have is not in their history lessons.

[SoapBox]

69. Delta Airlines is in full anti-union mode to their flight attendants,

who are going to vote on bringing in the IAM.

[ND-Dem]

71. boy, that was a while ago. washington state minium wage hasn't been $4.25 for a long time.

I think that was in 1977.

[Jakes Progress]

97. I think it is very telling that Gordon Gecko

had to subvert the union to wreck the company he wanted to take over. The union was his enemy. It protected the workers from people like him.