Tesla Motors Announces A New Home Battery; Living Off The Grid Will Soon Be Status Quo

[KamaAina]

http://offgridquest.com/news/tesla-motors-announces-a-new-home-batter

Speaking during an earnings conference call on Wednesday, Musk said that the design of the battery is complete, and production would begin in about six months. Although the company did not provide any date for the product's launch, Musk said that he was pleased with the result.

“We are going to unveil the Tesla home battery, the consumer battery that would be for use in people’s houses or businesses fairly soon,” Bloomberg quoted Musk as saying....

At this moment, many solar or wind-powered homes have to remain on a the grid because there has not been a way to store extra power for lean hours. If given a relatively cheap and reliable battery to hold the power needed, building off-grid in the country will become commonplace, and even in the city, self powered homes could be a less expensive option than being grid-tied.

Now who's ready to fire their monopoly power company?

Me! Me! Unless ALEC hurries up and makes it illegal.

[99Forever]

1. k/r, very cool.

[abelenkpe]

2. Apartments too?

What about renters?

[KamaAina]

3. Well, hopefully landlords hate utilities as much as everyone else

certainly here in NorCal, where PG&E stands for Pretty Greedy and Evil.

[abelenkpe]

7. Oh no! Have heard bad things about PG&E

So glad we have DWP. I'm going to email my landlord now. We have been trying to talk him into getting solar panels for awhile since there are so many incentives too. Thanks for the info!

[KamaAina]

9. Well, they haven't blown up a neighborhood in the past couple of years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion

The 2010 San Bruno pipeline explosion occurred at 6:11 pm PDT on September 9, 2010, in San Bruno, California, a suburb of San Francisco, when a 30-inch (76 cm) diameter steel natural gas pipeline owned by Pacific Gas & Electric exploded into flames in the Crestmoor residential neighborhood 2 mi (3.2 km) west of San Francisco International Airport near Skyline Boulevard and San Bruno Avenue. The loud roar and shaking led some residents of the area, first responders, and news media to initially believe that it was an earthquake or that a large jetliner had crashed. It took crews nearly an hour to determine it was a gas pipeline explosion. As of September 29, 2010, the death toll was eight people. The United States Geological Survey registered the explosion and resulting shock wave as a magnitude 1.1 earthquake. Eyewitnesses reported the initial blast "had a wall of fire more than 1,000 feet high"....

The Pacific Gas and Electric Company (PG&E) is the owner of the pipeline. On September 10, PG&E's president, Christopher Johns, said the company was not able to approach the source of the explosion to investigate the cause. An official press release issued by PG&E on September 10 reported the pipe was a 30-inch (76 cm) steel transmission line. PG&E shares fell 8% on the Friday after the explosion reducing the company's market capital by $1.57 billion.

PG&E also reduced their operating pressures by 20% after investigations revealed the pipeline may have been improperly installed.

After the San Bruno pipeline failure, PG&E was required to re-evaluate how it determines the maximum operating pressure for some 1,800 miles of pipeline throughout its system. Specifically, the California Public Utilities Commission asked PG&E officials to show their lines had been tested or examined in a way that could prove the pipeline can withstand the current maximum operating pressure. At the March 15, 2011 deadline for this Report, PG&E was unable to provide documentation for details of some of its gas transmission pipelines.

[shanti]

80. I have SMUD

They're much better than the hated PGE.

[KamaAina]

81. The only place in the world where voters voted to decommission a nuke plant!

[shanti]

83. It doesn't hurt

that it is the state capital!

[PasadenaTrudy]

19. I'm a landlord

I would totally be into this! I also live in my apt building. I'm always looking out for my tenets as well.

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. What charging system is the apartment equipped with? / How will you charge the battery? n/t

[snooper2]

111. by running your cars V8

[kristopher]

61. There are lots of plans for "community solar"...

...that would take care of getting solar energy for multifamily dwellings.

The tesla batteries will accelerate the implementation of these ideas.

download the doc from the National Renewable Energy Labs here:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy12osti/54570.pdf

[dixiegrrrrl]

4. If that becomes popular, the power companies will make it illegal.

Just as power companies are making selling back to the grid illegal now.

[ladjf]

33. You are right. That will be the next fight. nt

[Duppers]

86. ** Bingo! **

And, of course, the GOP will facilitate such laws.

Saddest thing is how easy it is to buy votes!

[AngryDem001]

96. GAH!!!

THIS is why don't have true innovation in this nation anymore!

CUZ INNOVATION HURTS SOMEBODY'S PROFITS!!!!!

[Agschmid]

5. Kick!

[PoliticAverse]

6. I wonder how "relatively cheap" it is. n/t

[obxhead]

23. It probably depends on life span and

How long you intend to stay in that particular home.

Over a 10 or 15 year span, many expensive things become cheap.

Living in a place under threat of hurricanes all summer there is the added comfort of not waiting two weeks for the power to be repaired after a storm or hoarding fuel for a loud generator.

Cheap is really defined by use and timeframe, not up front cost.

[JDPriestly]

25. As with any home improvement, the cost will be included in the price of the house (or your loss

on the house) when you sell it. The off-the-grid lifestyle will be loved and appreciated everywhere.

No electric poles. No electric wires to get torn down in windstorms. For Southern California, this will be just great.

We will be able to desalinate water once the technology develops to its height.

The days of coal, gas and petroleum are numbered.

Used to be the ice-man came around and delivered a big block of ice that you put in the freezer compartment of your refrigerator. That was called refrigeration back then. I remember those blocks of ice. I remember having a refrigerator that was made to hold such a block of ice.

Change is hard to deal with, but it can be wonderful. This development will be great.

[ashling]

29. Well, yeah, IF

you are not on a fixed income, in poverty, or otherwise living hand to mouth and can't get any long-term (or even short term) financing.

[onehandle]

8. Tesla and Apple are both working on advancing battery technology.

Oil companies are working on advancing global warming.

[JDPriestly]

52. +1000

[tridim]

10. Relatively cheap, compared to what?

Hey Elon, I need a battery for my future eBike too.

[dumbcat]

21. Relatively cheap, like his car?

Sorry, I want to see some numbers. (It's an engineer thing.)

[kristopher]

64. The expectation is for LIon at <$100/kwh of capacity by 2017

That would be shortly after the GigaFactories are supposed to be up and running.

[cbayer]

11. People already do use batteries to store the energy they create during the day.

We have eight 6-volt golf cart batteries. The solar panels and wind generator feed directly into them. Some of our electrical items run directly off the 12 volt, but we have an inverter that can change it to 110 AC.

While Lithium batteries are a great improvement in many ways, they are currently prohibitively expensive.

[peacebird]

12. We also have a bank of golf cart batteries for our photovoltaics. Problem is, if power goes out

In bad weather they will only keep us running about three days (powering the essentials like well, fridge, freezer and some outlets)
I would love to have better batteries in the backup system....

[cbayer]

13. Agree. If your energy source isn't happening, then the batteries are only going to

last so long.

That's why we, and probably you, have a back up generator. We don't use it often, but sometimes we have to.

Better batteries would be great. There are lots of drawbacks to acid batteries and I would love to exchange them for lithium, but it's just not practical at this time.

[peacebird]

14. Yes, fortunately the panel shed snow pretty quickly. We haven't ever even taken the generator

out of it's box.... Probably should, to make sure we know how to hook it up etc...

[cbayer]

15. I'm not sure you are going to want to set that thing up in the dark, lol.

We have a Honda 2K. It's very simple to use. Because we are on a boat, we have an outlet that can be used to hook up to electricity when in a dock. That plug can also be used for the generator, but I think it may be more complicated in a house.

What do you do for hot water?

[peacebird]

16. We have solar hot water tank that then flows into a traditional hotwater tank which rarely needs to

Fire up. The solar water is hot and the tradional tank is well insulated.

[cbayer]

20. We saw a lot of those in our travels

across Mexico last year. Not really an option for us, but I sure liked them.

We have a 4 gallon electric tank that requires the generator to run. But we also have a heat exchanger off the main engine. It is part of the cooling system and heats the water to a scalding temperature if we have used the engine.

[DustyJoe]

93. batteries

Drawbacks to acid batteries is correct.

Deep cycle batteries last longest if they are not drawn down below 50% or about 12.1 volts, 12.7 is considered full charge. But when a deep cycle battery is fully discharged it can be recharged compared to a car bettery where if it goes completely dead will hold a smaller amp hour of charge. Also the charge levels change as the lead plates collect sulfates that diminish the space between plates, this requires using a desulfating charger periodically that will send small burst cycles of voltage to break up the sulfides. (kinda like Dr's breaking a kidney stone up with soundwaves).

Most invertors stop working once battery voltage drops below 11.8 volts or so.

So yes, acid batteries do have drawbacks, but costwise the best bang for the buck. A 120 Amp Hour deep cycle can be bought for under $100.00 still.

I'm ready for Tesla or anyone to bring a battery online that can store an average homes needs for overnight in the winter. It'll happen ecentually.

[cbayer]

118. All true.

We keep ours at around 12.4 and never let them get much lower than 12.3.

There is a lot of debate in the boating community about equalizing. We have done it several times and really never noticed much improvement.

Agree about the price, but getting them out and the new ones on is a trial. I would love to have something light, efficient and with not risk of blowing up, lol.

[uponit7771]

34. This sounds like a pack for those who don't want to build their own. I'd rather build my own...

...doesn't take too long .. not "that" dangerous and will save a ton of dough

[cbayer]

40. I'm not sure what you mean by build your own.

You mean do the wiring? It' not that hard and even hiring someone to do it would only be a fraction of the total cost.

I think the advancement here is in moving to Lithium. They are much lighter, safer, and require less maintenance. But the cost for equivalent amount of storage is going to be far, far in excess of what it is for acid batteries.

[uponit7771]

44. Yeap, do the wiring... the balance taps etc... I do that for EDF... not hard just will take longer..

... if the pack is large

...

Also, they're most likely using LiCoOD mix instead of some lipo...

LiCoods are more stable voltage wise and if any of the packs are damanged .... last longer etc.

[cbayer]

50. Ah you know a lot about this, and even though I live off a system,

you know much more than I do.

Our system is pretty simple. Solar panels, wind generator -> charge regulator -> batteries. Then the batteries feed into the 12 volt system. If we need 110, we pass it through the invertor.

Do you know how large a Lithium battery I would have to have to be equivalent to my 8 6-volts? Do you know what the relative cost would be?

[dumbcat]

62. I don't know the exact answer to your question

as I am also not very familiar with the new lithium batteries. But, I do know lead acids and I also have a PV system with golf cart batteries for my ham radio station. Most 6VDC golf cart batteries are 220 H-hr at nom 6VDC.

220 A-hr X 6 volts = 1320 w-hr. Times 8 batteries = 10,560 w-hr or 10.5 kW-hr of energy storage capacity.

So that's the number you want to compare a lithium battery pack to. 10.5 kW-hr of storage capacity.

I'd like to know the answer myself but am not interested enough to research it.

[kristopher]

66. The price of storage - Musk's LIon packs are expected to be <$100/kwh by 2017

Their specs call for a life of 10000 deep discharge cycles not resulting in more than 20%degradation of capacity. That would be 26 years worth of daily full discharges.

[cbayer]

67. Thans for that.

I am pretty sure that an equivalent set would be smaller, lighter and require less maintenance, but the cost would still be way too high.

I hope they are able to go ahead with this and make the cost reasonable.

[Fumesucker]

112. I've built lithium packs by hand for the ebikes I have also built

It's not really all that easy or simple.. There's quite a few issues to consider when doing it, lithium packs require careful monitoring of at least each parallel group and monitoring of individual cells is considerably better. Also if you have a lot of cells paralleled each cell must be indvidually fused.

My current pack has 144 18650 cells in a 12s12p array and took me nearly a week of part time effort to get it put together and considerably more than that in testing and matching cells before the building process started.

[closeupready]

17. This is commonplace in some places outside the US.

I'm not exactly sure of the economics of it, or how it works 100%, but anything that decentralizes sounds good to me.

[hopemountain]

18. looking forward to it.

this month's electric bill for an 800 square foot cabin brings the total for one year to : $3k.

perhaps if more folks can be energy independent off the grid and in more rural areas the cities will become less populated - which may not make some nazi conspirators too happy. (concentrating the population makes it easier to control the "masses&quot .

so, yes, there may be corporate incentive to shut down the home battery market - just as there was to shut down the tesla vehicles and "free energy" movement.

[mountain grammy]

22. Bring it on. Can't happen soon enough.

[Fred Sanders]

24. OK, nice article, but why does the link show a picture of a Nissan Leaf 90 KW power pack?

Is the home battery a scaled up version of an automobile battery pack?


http://rimstar.org/renewnrg/sizing_select_batteries_for_off_grid_solar_system.htm

“We are trying to figure out what would be a cool stationary (battery) pack,” Forbes had quoted Musk as saying at the time. “Some will be like the Model S pack: something flat, 5 inches off the wall, wall mounted, with a beautiful cover, an integrated bi-directional inverter, and plug and play.”

[dumbcat]

27. I wish it was 90 MW

90 MW-Hr, actually. That would give you some nice range. Of course, it might be a bit bigger than shown.

[Fred Sanders]

28. Yes, that would be nice, my error...it is KW.

[NYC_SKP]

109. Keep in mind that weight is not so much a factor for home storage as it is for vehicles.

Musk's brilliant idea was when he designed the Tesla roadster with 6,831 lithium ion batteries (same as used in laptops at that time).

My old Prius had a Nickle Metal Hydride battery pack (it was beginning to die) so I bought a Volt which has a Li-ion batteries.

As these age and lose their capacity to store as much energy, there is talk of using them for home energy storage.

Smart idea, no?

GM, ABB Demonstrate Chevrolet Volt Battery Reuse Unit
World’s first use of electric vehicle batteries for energy storage nears grid testing

SAN FRANCISCO – General Motors and ABB today showed the next stage in battery reuse, the repackaging of five used Chevrolet Volt batteries into a modular unit capable of providing two hours of electricity needed by three to five average American homes.

The uninterruptable power supply and grid power balancing system was demonstrated during GM’s Electrification Experience. The prototype unit provided 25 kW of power and 50 kWh of energy to power all the support lighting and audiovisual equipment in an “off-grid” structure used for the event.

“GM’s battery development extends throughout the entire life of the battery, including secondary use,” said Pablo Valencia, GM senior manager of battery lifecycle management. "In many cases, when an EV battery has reached the end of its life in an automotive application, only 30 percent or less of its life has been used. This leaves a tremendous amount of life that can be applied to other applications like powering a structure before the battery is recycled.”

GM and ABB last year demonstrated how a Chevrolet Volt battery pack could be used to collect energy and feed it back to the grid and deliver supplemental power to homes or businesses.


http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2012/Nov/electrification/1114_reuse.html

[Fred Sanders]

110. Home battery packs as an alternative to emergency generators is surely the first step.

Glad you have a Volt, I am waiting it out until the batteries improve.

[NYC_SKP]

114. I looked at an Escape Energi and a Fusion Energi because they offered Level 2-240 V charging

But the Escape has crappy visibility and not that much room and the Fusion is sexy but has no space for stuff.

And both were WAY to expensive.

I wanted a slightly used something and lucked out in finding a 2012 Volt with only 8,280 miles on it for half the cost of a new Energi model anything.

And I didn't realize that it's a true hatchback or fastback, like a Prius and the rear seats fold down really flat and provide a very roomy 62" x 41" deck.

And for short trips, it's always electric, none of this annoying gas engine starting and stopping incessantly.

[rhett o rick]

26. Wouldn't the Right Wingnuts love to get off the grid? Do they know what "grid" means? nm

[SusanCalvin]

30. For us Heinlein fans...

Someone on reddit is already calling it a "Shipstone." First thing I thought of.

[KamaAina]

31. Me too!

And welcome to DU! (Although I don't think R.A.H. would really approve of us being here. )

[SusanCalvin]

97. Hey back!

As far as Heinlein's approving, he wasn't as libertarian as he has the reputation of being, at least at some points in his life - see _For Us the Living_, and his involvement with EPIC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_Poverty_in_California_movement ).

And his characters' viewpoints aren't always his, of course. I have to stifle a scream when Manny (_TMIAHM_) says he doesn't need to buy health insurance because he's young and healthy. (The real reason he doesn't need to is that he has a very wealthy extended family, but even then an umbrella policy wouldn't be a bad idea.)

[KamaAina]

104. I love EPIC!

I had no idea it lasted that long! Sinclair's campaign was back in 1934. I'm thinking of reviving it as EPIC WIN (End Poverty In California. When? Immediately. Now!)

[SusanCalvin]

119. Excellent idea!

[KamaAina]

120. What part of the state are you in?

San Jose here.

[SusanCalvin]

121. Oh, I'm in Texas

But I can still recognize a good idea when I see one. (Having so many bad ideas here to use as bad examples......)

[KamaAina]

122. So much for that brilliant plan

[SusanCalvin]

124. Well,

I *wish* I were in CA - does that count....?

There's got to be more people out there who think EPIC's a good idea.

[uponit7771]

36. What is shipstone tech? tia

[KamaAina]

45. A Shipstone was a device that could store essentially limitless power

and be used to power anything, up to and including a spaceship. (Heinlein was a sci-fi writer. )

[uponit7771]

49. Thx!

...did....

[Doc Holliday]

116. Same here.

Now if someone could get the bugs worked out of those Douglas-Martin solar panels, we'd be in great shape.

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. I see little advantage over a grid-tied system.

In my state, utilities are obliged to purchase a customer's excess power.

[uponit7771]

37. But when there's no source (dark, no wind) the costomer has to get from the grid...

... a pack allows one to stay off the grid... for ever...

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. Yes. In that case, the utility serves as the battery.

Batteries can be a good alternative to an emergency generator, but in a non-outage situation, the grid is the cheapest battery you can buy.

[kristopher]

72. A grid tied system is good for us but not the utilities...

The way power is bought and sold both wind and solar are slashing prices on the mid-day spot market. Many of the large generating plants reserve about 20% of their power capacity to sell into that market because the bidding structure pays them much, much better than long term contracts.
The market is dominated by producers essentially bidding their fuel costs, so solar and wind bid into it at zero. Since the system pays everyone the same price as the highest bid accepted, this ensures the renewables sell everything they bid and that consequently lowers the prices of the highest accepted bids, which drags the price down for everyone else.

That's why it is ALEC's goal this year to stomp on the growth of renewables by getting rid of both the production tax credit and solar net metering.

They are having a fair amount of success in a number of states.

This is one of the forces that will drive people to the batteries. At less than $100/kwh of storage capacity for batteries that last more than 26 years the economics of home storage with several strategies becomes worth revisiting.

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. Thanks. I didn't know that any states had abandoned net metering. n/t

[cbayer]

43. Any battery system is going to have a defined period of time when the charge will be exhausted.

I don't see how this pack could last for ever.

[uponit7771]

46. The pack wont last forever you can "potentially" stay of the grid forever... the power source

... (light, wind, bio-diesel, sound) will keep feeding the house etc but when there's "excess" of any of that and you don't want to "resell" it to the power company store it in a large LiCod pack or something like that....

[cbayer]

51. That's true with current systems too.

As long as there is a charging source, they system should run indefinitely. But in many areas, you are going to have limited charging sources, particularly at certain times of the year.

Everything goes through our batteries, but that is how we are wired. We are constantly storing what we are not using and it's really an efficient system. I think we turned on the generator for about 2 hours once this month, and that was after 4 really overcast days in a row.

[hunter]

54. One of your neighbors will buy a big field of solar panels and CAT natural gas/diesel and share.

The "electric utility" business model will be broken.

[cbayer]

56. I would very much like it to be broken.

It would be great if communities could get together to set up their own systems.

But at this time, you are highly likely to need some fossil fuels from time to time. The reduction, however, would be enormous.

[csziggy]

60. Hopefully the pack would store enough to last until the sun comes back out

For instance, here in North Florida, we might have several days, at most a week, without sufficient sun to power PV. A battery pack that can supply power for that amount of time would make a house grid independent.

That could make the difference for me to go to a PV system. I haven't yet put in one - when I checked out the possibility ten years ago before building our house, the cost of the PV panels was too high (over $30,000), the number of batteries took up too much space, and the battery capacity was not sufficient to power a house for more than a day or two. We would have needed to add an extra room just to store the batteries and the extra electronics for the PV system, bringing the total cost to about $50,000 once we were done.

Thing final straw was that the local electric coop was not set up to buy extra capacity so we couldn't even stay on the grid without batteries and offset our costs with the PV panels.

Now I hear PV panels are a lot cheaper, our coop has changed their meters to "smart meters" so I think they can buy excess power, and if battery systems would take less space I will seriously consider adding solar PV down the road.

[cbayer]

65. I would never have this system without an alternate charing system that involved

fuel.

Sun can become scarce for long periods of time. Wind is highly variable.

One can extend the time that batteries will provide power simply by expanding the battery pack. If I double mine, a full charge would last twice as long, but never indefinitely.

I suggest you consider starting small. It's easy to keep building on an initially very small and simple system. You can start with a solar panel driven water system or switch your refrigeration over.

The benefits of Lithium batteries are clear, but if you are worried about cost, they are not going to resolve your problem at all.

[csziggy]

91. We did go with a solar water heater but not PV

And I haven't had any money since the house was finish - not because of the house, but because of getting body work. Shoulder surgery, knee replacements (x2), carpal tunnel surgery (x2), ulnar nerve relocation (x2), arthroplasty - all since 2008.

I'm still digging out from under all of that. Eventually I'd like to put in solar even if I don't go off the grid, but it's not really in the budget yet. And I will have to pay someone to do it for me. I just can't tackle that kind of work any more.

[itsrobert]

38. at the lowest teir rate

But when you need more enetgy the power company can charge a higher teir rate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. How much does the battery reimburse the homeowner for power in excess of household need?

Off grid wind systems are equipped with a dump load, essentially a big resistor that turns excess power into heat.

In a grid tie system, the utility will buy it.

[Tsiyu]

58. I have friends who will never be on the grid

because the trucks can't get down their windy, twisting road to set power lines, and there's too much rock to cheaply bury lines.

People in rural areas would really appreciate a system like the one Tesla describes.

All of the batteries can get messy and require maintenance, so a neater, more refined option will really appeal to them if it's in a decent price range.

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. Our family has a remote vacation cabin for which this would be great...

... provided the tweakers don't find it.

And except for the weight during initial installation, I don't know what advantage a highly energy dense residential battery gives. Unlike a car, RV or boat, a homeowner really doesn't care how large the battery bank is. Buy 6 8d batteries (18Kwh @ $3600 - enough to provide 750 continuous watts for 24 hours) and keep the electrolyte levels maintained.

[dilby]

39. They already make cars for the 1% who dont want to pay gas

Taxes to pay for infrastructure. Why not a battery for them too so they can get out of paying for public utilities that they will demand access to when their solar fails or their battery dies.

[KeepItReal]

71. Sales taxes and income taxes are paid by Tesla owners.

Utilities are provided in most places by private corporations, not some public entity.

Hang in there... Tesla is making the Model 3 that will cost $30K - $40K. It should launch in a couple of years.

In the meanwhile, there are options like the Nissan Leaf, Volkswagen eGolf, Kia Soul Electric, and Fiat 500e to let the 99% wean themselves off of big oil.

[dilby]

74. States get 20-50% of their transportation spending from gas taxes.

Sales tax and income taxes are a terrible way to fund transportation since those who use it most should pay for it. Furthermore lowering the cost of driving only increases the number of drivers on the road.

The other issue is people want to get off the grid but still want access to it without paying for the maintenance of it. If 50% of the people no longer paid anything for electric it would shift the cost off to the other 50% to pay to maintain the grid. It's the Libertarian dream, I don't want to pay for shit but it better be there when I need it.

[KeepItReal]

82. So tolls on every road then? Every person pays to sustain an electric company's business model?

Cars are becoming more fuel efficient. Gas taxes paid will go down for some (with more efficient cars) and become optional for other Americans with electric cars, so the states need to account for that.

I would be overjoyed if more people were on the road in electric cars (and fewer in oil burners) due to lowering the cost of driving. Traffic would suck, but hey no extra carbon emissions to warm up the planet.

I don't know who these "people want to get off the grid but still want access to it without paying for the maintenance of it" are. Either you are a customer of an electric company or you aren't and have to make your own electricity off the grid (unless you're getting power at an airport or a Starbucks or something).

If 50% of my electric company's customers "no longer paid anything for electric" that would mean they no longer utilized its power generation. That would be 50% less demand (or whatever % they represent). The electric company would reduce output, sell the extra power to another utility, and/or ask the utility commission to raise rates to help its bottom line.

[dilby]

89. I think there should be GPS monitors in every vehicle and people should be taxed based on miles

driven. And yes people still want to have access to the grid even though they think they are off the grid. If someones battery dies or there is not enough sunlight to generate electricity for several days, they want the convenience of knowing the power company will see them through. But they also have the attitude that they are not responsible for maintaining the grid since they are not using it 99% of the time. I am completely fine with someone going truly 100% off the grid and removing themselves completely from having access to the public utility but if they want a connection, they need to pay a monthly service fee for having access to it so they can pay for infrastructure just like all the other customers.

[hughee99]

92. So you're proposing a national system where the government tracks every movement of your car?

I'll be they already have an agency willing to undertake such a task. And no worries, they would NEVER use the information for any reason except taxation. Yes, the GPS tracking plan sounds like a "solution" that's still looking for it's problem.

[dilby]

94. No it's a solution to the problem of our roads crumbling around us because there is not enough money

being generated in gas taxes to maintain them. The more efficient vehicles have become the less taxes are generated. One option would be an odometer tax where every year your odometer is checked to determine how many miles you have put on the vehicle, however this is easily circumvented so a GPS solution is really the only solution.

[hughee99]

98. So your solution to this problem would be a massive invasion of every person's privacy?

That's really the only way you can think of to raise the needed revenue?

How about an excise tax on fuel efficient cars, a business tax on companies that ship or receive products (that gets passed down to customers), moving money from the general fund instead of starting wars in foreign lands, a property tax, a sales tax or even a national lottery.

[Throd]

101. You want to stick a GPS on my Oldsmobile? I hate you.

[Lancero]

95. The NSA is behind this idea, 100%

[quakerboy]

105. well, at least they aren't challenging any hay taxes

I mean, we need those to pay people to clean up all the horse poo and discarded buggywhips.


You do realize that the stated plan for Tesla was to sell an expensive car first to build up money and manufacturing to that they could start to build more affordable models? Still going to be more expensive than a normal car, but with the potential fuel savings, becoming a real possibility for many families, not just the very wealthy?

And then you have all the people on this very DU thread talking about their home systems and how this might fit in. Are they the 1%?

Im pretty sure that the owners of the local power company are more akin to the 1% than people like me who would very much be interested in being able to live grid independent at need.

Then there's the fact that a more affordable battery means that even if normal people dont get in on it directly, the power company can provide some more distributed power storage. A battery per block would really help moderate the effects of weather related power outages. It wouldn't even have to be a huge battery. That kind of use would mean that those of us living a bit closer to the edge could avoid losing a months worth of groceries when there's a storm. It would also mean that power companies could more easily afford to use more solar and wind power. If they have enough storage to cover the nights, then they dont need as many fossil fuel power plants. Which means a bit less particulate matter, and a few fewer asthma attacks, etc.

All in all, I would rank your post as being about as shortsighted and pointlessly and incorrectly spiteful as possible without really deserving to be hidden.

[blackspade]

42. This can't happen soon enough.

[hunter]

48. Residential electricity will soon be beyond control of the oligarchs.

They don't like that.

Expect them to fight your neighborhood electric utilities.

[sendero]

53. I sure like the idea...

.. but I'm finding almost nothing in the way of specifications for these batteries. From what I can find, it looks like he plans to repackage a car battery pack and put some electronics around it.

If that is what he is doing it is a nothingburger.

[Yo_Mama]

76. Well obviously, if it will be in production with a couple of years.

It's not some fundamental revolution.

They are EXPENSIVE. This would work for rich people only.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

55. I dream of going out to the Mojave desert and living like a desert rat

Such a battery would be very useful. The next problem would be water. There's a giant sea of water under the Mojave but drilling down 500 feet costs about $60,000 on average. At age 65, I'm very, very tired of civilization and overpopulation and want to get as far away as possible, even at the cost of $60,000 for water.

[7962]

57. Oh HELL yes! Soon as I can afford it anyway. Itd be great right now, ice took out the pwr! nt

[olddots]

59. We are in a constant stalemate with new technologies

and current economies .For the wealthiest loss of number of human jobs is no problem but for the masses new tech can be life threatening .

Are these lithium batteries ? Where is lithium found ? .

Remember they started almost giving away the toys 40 years ago knowing we would have to pay for the batteries .Balance is gonna be crucial to our lives .

[DeSwiss]

63. K&R

[tblue37]

68. Well, considering that they have successfully lobbied legislatures to impose

outrageous extra fees on those who get much of their electricity from solar power, I imagine they will find a way to prevent or burden the use of electrical power that the big companies do not supply.

Oklahoma Utilities Hit Homes Using Solar With Extra Fee

Anyone living in Oklahoma planning to power their home using a rooftop solar panel will soon be charged a fee for the right to do that while still being connected to the local power grid.

Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin signed the "solar surcharge" bill into law on Monday, permitting utilities to charge an extra fee to any customer using distributed power generation, such as rooftop solar or a small wind turbine.

Distributed generation is seen in many parts of the country as a way for cities and homeowners to modernize their power system and become more resilient in the face of extreme weather, brought about in part by climate change. Rooftop solar and wind turbines generate clean energy to help to keep homes’ lights on when the power grid fails.

Oklahoma's new law states that it is aiming to prevent the majority of utility customers from "subsidizing" those with solar panels on their homes who offset the cost of electricity and grid maintenance costs by generating their own power and feeding it onto the grid and receiving credit for the power they generate.

<SNIP>

http://www.weather.com/science/environment/news/oklahoma-alternative-energy-taxes-20140423

ON EDIT: And don't forget, whenever those solar and wind power customers generate more power than they use, they contribute that extra power to the grid, but are not compensated at all for it. They are forced to donate that extra power, and then they get charged extra because they are not paying for power from the grid, since they ended up with more power from their solar or wind generators than they needed to use.

[IdiotsforPalin]

77. Look closely at this legislation

it was sponsored by ALEC, much like wind power surcharges in Texas, this has Koch stank all over it.

[SnakeEyes]

100. Don't think this is just ALEC

The government, and their public utilities, have to find a way to make up lost revenue.

[lumberjack_jeff]

88. You're right.

In Washington, I've always taken net metering for granted.

Why would anyone vote for the kind of assholes which would do this?

Vote freedom! Freedom for utilities to charge you for the privilege of giving your excess power to them.

[still_one]

69. Do you use gas for anything? If so you still need utilities. Also, even

If the batteries are able to store power off the grid, one needs the grid as a backup

I have solar, but I pay for gas, and electric at night. If it is priced right it should catch on. However, I suspect it will be in the same price range for those who can afford a Tesla, at least initially

[heaven05]

70. at first blush, extremely cool

[Enthusiast]

73. Oh, those fuckers will make it illegal if they can.

Monopolies are the new free market.

[Jamastiene]

75. I wish I could afford the Tesla car and these new home batteries.

I'm nowhere near being able to afford either, but I still hope they can keep advancing the technology. That way, maybe one day, the rest of us can afford it too.

[Hoppy]

84. This is a back-up battery, not a replacement for your elec. utility.

[packman]

85. I can see them being a "rental" item

hook them up to a house, offer customers cut-rate electricity cheaper than they can get off the grid. Pay for cheaper electricity on a monthly basis.

Would really like to see this happen. What about mega-size batteries to capture all that water falling over hydro dams during non-peak hours?

[WinkyDink]

87. I don't think in all places one can live in non-"hooked up" dwellings. Or at least, not receive

the basic bill for the dwelling's existence.

I know that where I live, whether one uses water or not (say you're on vacation), the basic bill is still $52/month

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

90. I don't think you need the sarcasm thingy.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

99. We need multi-volt houses.

[Warpy]

102. My monopoly power company has been going to renewables very quickly

so until and unless the price of a solar roof falls considerably, I'll stay hooked up and have them worry about upkeep. I'm an energy miser so my monthly bill is low.

If I lived in an area of deregulated, privatized companies, I'd find the cost of solar conversion makes a lot more sense. If I needed refrigerated AC in the summer, ditto.

It just doesn't make much sense now.

[sulphurdunn]

103. The utilities will just have their

thralls in state legislatures pass another fail to use enough power from the grid tax. If that doesn't do the trick, they'll make it illegal to be off the grid.

[Android3.14]

106. IT's never really been an energy crisis

But one of energy transport and storage. This is cool.

[LWolf]

107. I like my electric company.

I think more should be like them.

I get my electricity from a non-profit co-op that serves outlying areas. My friends in town are envious, and their for-profit power company hates my co-op, and is always complaining that they should be forced to raise their rates to be closer to the town power providers. Every couple of years, I get a rebate check for whatever I paid that wasn't needed; they estimate a two-year budget, charge accordingly, and return what they didn't use to us. I can also choose the source of my electricity; the greener choices are more expensive, of course, and I'm not getting my power directly from them, but those customers who make greener choices determine what percentage of the co-ops power is coming from those sources.

If I had money to invest, though, I'd love to invest in wind and/or solar technology to reduce my dependence upon them.

[Xithras]

113. Me too.

I get my power from a non-profit community owned irrigation district with locally owned renewable and hydro services. In fact, 25% of our power will be from renewables by this time next year.

I have some real questions about the effectiveness of battery technology in many homes anyway. How well are these going to work during the winter when your solar panels are putting out less than a Kw/m2 because of low winter solar radiation levels, while your heater is running 24/7 just to keep your house above freezing? Where I live, it's fairly standard to have your air conditioner going until midnight when the outside temps finally drop back into the low 90's, while you're also running your electric ovens to cook, washers and dryers to clean laundry, your televisions and your computers. Knowing the wattage required for that kind of load, it's hard to imagine any kind of affordable battery solution that wouldn't also require a major lifestyle change.

[LWolf]

123. If I could generate my own power,

I'd probably just let the extra flow to my co-op, and they could reduce my bill or send me the $; a battery system has seemed chancy to me, since I wonder how long the battery lasts and what the investment to replace it would be.

Still, a battery as backup would be good. Our power doesn't go out often, but it's a big deal when it does. There is no water when the power goes out; not for showers, for toilets, for washing dishes, or, the most important, watering horses, who suck up a LOT of water. Electricity pumps the water out of the well and into the house and barn.

[paparush]

108. And Congress will pass meaningful tax credits to help support this transition, right?

(crickets)

[PoliticAverse]

117. I'm sure more corporate welfare will be flowing to Tesla. n/t

[C Moon]

115. This would be sooooo great!