So Elizabeth Warren was a Republican up until 1995.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Well, isn't that convenient.

As a young salesperson in suburban Orlando I can remember being the only person in my peer group who supported Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis in their doomed 1984 and 1988 campaigns . It would have been much more advantageous to my career if I would have surrendered to the zeitgeist and supported Ronald Reagan and Bush Pere but I held firm to my beliefs rather than surrender them for career gains or filthy lucre.


I was a Democrat when being a Democrat wasn't cool.

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Autumn]

1. I was a Democrat when it was cool. it's not anymore so I went

unaffiliated.

[City Lights]

11. Ha!

[LawDeeDah]

14. hee hee

Warren is like a Gandhi compared to Hillary.
but let us let the people have their fun in attempting smearing Warren with Hillary's qualities.

[99Forever]

73. Exactly. n/t

[SidDithers]

91. Welcome to DU...

Sid

[sabrina 1]

94. Welcome to DU, and yes, Warren actually became a Democrat, and was one during the most uncool times

to be a Democrat, during the Cheney/Bush years.

[TheBlackAdder]

106. Besides that, she's been feeling the wrath of the GOP for quite a while. That poisons the well. nt

[Myrina]

113. Except for that time she was a Goldwater Girl ...

research. it's helpful.

[OKNancy]

156. when she was 17 living at home and not old enough to vote

I don't care if Warren was a Republican and she voted for Republicans.
I DO care when this ridiculous "Goldwater girl" b.s. is thrown out.

[Rex]

221. LOL! Shhhh...don't remind them of that it drives em crazy!

Or that she was an intern for Gerald Ford when he was a congressman.

[hrmjustin]

203. Thsts not true!

[randome]

3. Saying "She(he)'s changed" has become something of a canard these days.

But Warren gives every impression of being authentic so I'm not that concerned with her past.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[tabbycat31]

4. I wasn't officially a Democrat until 2008

Even though I agreed with the party before then.

It wasn't until I moved (and changed my registration) that it was official.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

119. I came and went.

My party affiliation had little to do with how I voted, especially in Presidential races. I vote based on the candidates on offer, not what 'tag' they put after their name. Admittedly, that has meant that I've voted mostly for Dems over the years, but I'm not voting for them because of the 'D', I'm voting for them based on what they say and do.

[tabbycat31]

124. I considered myself a Democrat before then

But I was too lazy to change my registration.

I've voted for a total of one Republican in my lifetime for a federal race (I have at the local level only since then because there's no Democrat--- now I write in fictional characters instead). It was for a senate race in 2000. When said senator was up for reelection in 2006, I voted for her with bells on.

In my state, the primaries are basically in name only (at least in my county) and the nominees are decided at a convention (in which I've voted in before). Usually there's only one person willing to step forward, so he/she gets the line by default. (I live in an R30 legislative district and a GOP congressional district in an otherwise blue state).

In a general election, I vote straight ticket D.

[LanternWaste]

5. How precisely, is it convenient?

How precisely, is it convenient?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. It's not convenient to be a Republican when your boss and all your clients are one? /NT

[brooklynite]

53. How about - don't tell your boss and your clients about your politics?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. That's good advice but sometimes it's unavoidable./NT

[Throd]

99. How so?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. You're sitting at a table at a nice banquet and the other diners start braying...

You're sitting at a table at a nice banquet and the other diners start braying about how folks are on welfare because their lazy.

You're shooting the shit with your boss and he's telling how he pulled himself up by his own bootstraps and why can't everybody else.

You go to a Chamber Of Commerce meeting and there's straw polls and the Democratic candidates would get shellacked.

[Throd]

132. In similar circumstances, I just held my opinion.

It can be difficult, but sometimes it is necessary.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

142. Depended on the circumstances.

I will say one of my bosses was a dyed in the wool Republican and I could have been a Maoist revolutionary and he would have been fine with it as long as I was making him money.

[merrily]

140. You can rebut the first two with facts, without saying you are a Democrat.

If you care about straw polls, you can vote in one, without disclosing how you voted.

If asked outright, you can dodge a direct answer.

[Bluenorthwest]

126. Reagan era, Warren and I both made great money, most of mine got spent trying to plug the holes

in a social safety net that was allowing tens of thousands of sick people to suffer unassisted by society and government. During Reagan's time, I was a public person, a celebrity even. Everyone knew where I stood, to do otherwise was unthinkable. Yes, it cost me lots of money, lots of connections and there were many people at that time who would not even be in a room with someone who had been in a room with someone with AIDS.
During that same time, Warren made millions of dollars doing 'consulting work' that paid six figure fees, not always easy pickings, such gigs. She voted to continue all of the policies that were ignoring AIDS and the plight of the middle class even as I was in the streets and in the papers speaking out.
Her presence reminds me how little many Democrats differ from Republicans.

[jwirr]

6. I can relate. There were 4 other high school students who did not support Ike Eisenhower.

[hfojvt]

37. Stevenson was once told

"every thinking person is supporting you."

He said "That's not enough, we need a majority."

[merrily]

43. A brilliant man, ahead of his time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. And funny too but I'm not sad I missed the fifties./NT

[merrily]

56. I don't know if he was consistently funny, but I think he was consistently brilliant.

Strong advocate for civil rights, too, before many were.

[Art_from_Ark]

231. Thats probably one reason why Stevenson chose Estes Kefauver as his running mate in 1956

Kefauver was one of only 3 Congressional Southern Democrats who did not support the segregationist "Southern Manifesto" in 1956 (the other two being Al Gore's father, and Lyndon Johnson).

[merrily]

235. Very interesting. If I ever knew his running mate's name, I'd forgotten.

Good to know. Eisenhower, on the other hand, was a racist, according to the autobiography of Earl Warren.

People say things like, "It was the times." I do cut people some slack because "everyone else did it" and certain things were supposedly taken for granted. On the other hand, some people did know better, all the way back to the 17th Century, even to the point of practicing their own brand of disobeying what they considered unjust laws.

I posted recently that I'd watched On Demand an episode of Who Do You Think You Are? (geneaology of celebrities) featuring Zooey Deschanel. Thought it would be mindless viewing.. Was I wrong! Turned out her ancestors were anti-war, anti-slavery Quakers. And, on their farm in Pennsy was a stop for the Underground Railroad.

A slave owner tracked a runaway slave or two he "owned" to the farm. When he came to get them under the Fugitive Slave Act, a battle occurred that was an important event leading to the Civil War.. The Quakers did not participate in the fighting, though they did try to protect the runaways. (Footnote: a friend of the slave owner was very outraged at that battle and its casualties. He was John Wilkes Booth.)

Interesting episode!

[Art_from_Ark]

263. Interesting story about the Underground Railroad

And a bit of interesting trivia about the 3 Congressional Southern Democrats I mentioned:

Kefauver was a Democratic candidate for Vice President; Al Gore, Sr. was the father of a Vice President; and Lyndon Johnson was himself a Vice President.

[merrily]

264. Thanks, and interesting connections among Gore, Sr., LBJ and Kefauver.

I am going to have to look into Kefauver more. I know a bit about LBJ (duh) and a couple of things about Gore Sr., but almost nothing about Kefauver. I associate his name with hearings of some kind and that is about it.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

[jwirr]

62. LOL Thank you for that.

[n2doc]

7. Enjoy President Cruz n/t

[merrily]

48. Not possible without a Constitutional amendment, which ain't happening. Born in Canada, he was.

[Codeine]

105. To an American mother.

He's a citizen and eligible to be President.

God forbid.

[merrily]

108. You don't that. Please see the discussion I had with treestar about this, starting around Reply 64.

[Codeine]

218. Idiotic argument.

There are two kinds of citizen, naturalized and born. If you ain't one you're t'other. I won't countenance the idiot arguments of the right wing.

[Whiskeytide]

9. As a progressive, I spend...

... at least some time almost every day trying to get through to one or more of my conservative friends and acquaintances, and shed some enlightenment and understanding upon them. Sometimes I see a flicker of realization on the faces of the brighter ones. I feel I have actually made progress, to varying degrees, with quite a few.

Why should I be automatically suspicious of an obviously very intelligent "once conservative" who, for all intents and purposes, seems to have clearly seen the light and modified her opinions - and actions - accordingly? I have never understood this "you're not welcome unless you have always been on our team" viewpoint. I thought it was "big tent, large doors, come on in, the bar is over there".

[YoungDemCA]

97. For me, I'm not bothered so much by Warren having voted for Reagan and Bush I

What I am bothered by, however, is the self-righteous, self-serving, and hypocritical purism of many of her supporters. It's off-putting, to put it nicely.

[Whiskeytide]

104. I can't really disagree with that...

... but it seems there are always supporters who view their candidate through rose colored glasses. I guess it kind of goes hand in hand with politics. Hell, the entire tea party is afflicted with it, so it should come as no surprise we have some on our side as well.

I like Warren generally. My over-riding democratic influence/issue is corporate/big finance oppression, so she sings my tune most of the time. Unless she ate puppies, I don't really care what she did 20 years ago.

[demwing]

135. OK, so you took a swipe at Warren's (supposed) supporters

if your observation can be trusted, and such "self-righteous, self-serving, and hypocritical purism" really exists, and you're not just looking at them through Hillary colored lenses.

Do you feel better now, or do you feel the same?

If you feel better, good for you! Venting can be therapeutic. Now remember...next year you'll be voting for a candidate, not her supporters.

If you don't feel better, then try something that WILL make you feel better, and vote for a candidate that will represent ALL Americans, not just the wealthiest sliver, and stop hating.

I don't think it's Hillary, and I know damn well it's not any of the clowns the Republicans will throw at us. It's early enough to help support a healthy primary in the Dem party.

Lead, follow, or move aside.

[bvar22]

195. I feel the exact same way about the Neo-Cons in the Democratic Party...

...who support Hillary.
"self-righteous, self-serving, and hypocritical purism"

[AtomicKitten]

223. You don't know how she voted & she hasn't said.

Last edited Wed Jan 28, 2015, 01:29 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026101224#post57

[Bluenorthwest]

114. Her boosters want her to be President, so she should be able to address any and all concerns about

her Republican lifetime. She's not just some former Republican, she's a former Republican being treated as if she was Emma Goldman, a millionaire who is treated as if she was a regular person. She also stands for office and seeks leadership in this Party. She voted for Reagan the second time with over 5,000 dead from AIDS, Reagan had said nothing. Her DU boosters ask 'was AIDS really all that bad' when that is questioned. That's disgusting.
It is very different welcoming someone into the 'big tent' than it is putting that person in charge of the tent instantly and without being permitted to find out what she thinks about many important issues nor to ask how she went from Republican to Uber Progressive.

Look. She says she was a Republican because she so strongly supported their fiscal policies. Those policies destroyed the middle class and also came attached to racist, anti gay, woman hating garbage which he voted for. Does that suggest that she's got good fiscal views? She was Supply Side, made millions as a Republican. It served her, sure. An economist who supported Reaganomics for decades is not my idea of a good economist.

I was in the streets, it was life or death. She was standing with Ronnie and George. She needs to either account for that or I am not interested in her.

[Whiskeytide]

159. That's fair enough...

..., and she should explain where her head was in the 80s. But you must understand that what you're saying is, essentially, a purity test. And while I have no problem with thoroughly vetting any candidate who is looking to assume a leadership role with the party, I also don't have a problem with people changing their minds about important issues.

Ronnie was, in my view, the worst president ever elected to office in this country. But Friedman's economic models were wildly popular in the 80s following the economic nightmare the country suffered in the late 70s, and a lot of people saw some kind of logic (superficial though it was) in the trickle-down BS that everyone seemed to be touting at the time. It was a first class sales job, and the American people ate it up. Smart people - across all classes - thought it was a great policy. They were wrong, but that doesn't (necessarily) mean they were evil.

AIDS was horrific. Reagan should be vilified for his policies and non-policies concerning the epidemic. But -tragically - it WAS off the radar for the vast majority of Americans. It was just as slick a sales job. If you were on the streets, you knew that. But people who got their information from the box in their living room really didn't. I was in school at the time, but I really had no idea what Reagan was doing or not doing in response to AIDS. I didn't learn that until years later.

I actually supported Reagan in 1980. I had not been happy with Carter for several stupid reasons (my world view at 15-18 was pretty limited). Now, of course, I think Carter was the best thing we could have had during those tough times, and I know Reagan was a slick salesman who did more to destroy this country than I would have thought possible.

I just can't fault Warren for getting to the same place I did, even if she went a different route, may have been in a better position to know better, or even may have understood what she was doing then and (hopefully) has regrets. But whether she's "figured it out" or "had a change of heart" - either way she's walking the walk now, and I appreciate it. We need all the help we can get!

Now, if I see some lizard eyelids blinking horizontally, all bets are off.

[JonLP24]

230. Wow

No one did research? I don't doubt what you said but trickle down nonsense came from Hoover era Republicans(the term, the theory was responsible for the panic of 1896). Harry Truman - “It reflects a reversion to the old idea that the tree can be fertilized at the top instead of at the bottom — the old trickle-down theory.“

Alan Keynes economic models came during the FDR administration and they worked. Where the hell was everybody who knew that?

George HW Bush even called them "Voodoo economics" but backed them after Reagan was elected.

[Bluenorthwest]

239. I said what I said and I meant it. You, right here, have spoken more clearly of your own Reagan era

Republicanism than he has. She can't answer questions, she is not capable of being President. Period. Of course you relate to her more than I do, you were also a Reagan Republican. That means you should be reading this:
"1987
41,027 persons are dead and
71,176 persons diagnosed with AIDS in the US.
After years of negligent silence, President Ronald Reagan finally uses the word "AIDS" in public. He sided with his Education Secretary William Bennett and other conservatives who said the Government should not provide sex education information. (They are still saying it!)

On April 2, 1987, Reagan said: "How that information is used must be up to schools and parents, not government. But let's be honest with ourselves, AIDS information can not be what some call 'value neutral.' After all, when it comes to preventing AIDS, don't medicine and morality teach the same lessons."

http://www.actupny.org/reports/reagan.html

We all make choices. We all have to account for those choices if the day comes when we need something from those we have harmed with those choices. That includes Senator Warren if she wants my vote. The fact that her boosters find that to be objectionable is a huge red flag and a major, major turn off.

Global total deaths around 36 million, 650,000 in the US, AIDS killed 1.5 million in Africa last year while Warren and other Americans were shouting 'Ebola' because one tourist died from it. One. One straight person, the world is ending. Tens of thousands of gay and black people? Heartless American conservatives did not care about that at all.

[AtomicKitten]

224. You don't know how she voted & she hasn't said.

We've had this conversation before. The ONLY reference researched on Google saying she did is from YOU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026101224#post57

You are a proven disseminator of false information.

Chickenshit way to tear down someone you fear might put a monkeywrench in Hillary's path to the presidency.

[Bluenorthwest]

240. I don't support Hillary Clinton. I support Bernie Sanders. Why would she be a Republican and not

vote for Republicans? Why on Earth would she not say so if she did not vote for the Republican candidates when she was a Republican now that she's a Democrat?
The personal attacks against people who question Republican anti gay policies are nothing new to me, so I'm not surprised with your 'Hilllary, Hillary' falsehoods. I did not support her in 08 nor will I in the upcoming Primary. I was on DU during the Primary last. Look it up.
Hillary Clinton was one of the last major Democrats to speak in favor of equality in marriage after 17 years of opposing us with bullshit hair splitting religious nonsense. About the only thing I like better about her than Warren is that she voted for Bill Clinton as I did, against Bush and against the continuation of those horrible Reagan/Bush policies.
If Warren would bother to address these issues, I could easily support her. But she will have to make a large effort. She will have to answer questions about her past, just as any other candidate for President has to do.

I can and do speak for myself. You should do the same. Do not put words into my mouth and not not bear false witness against me, thanks. You are not my superior, nor do you own me and you have no right to attack me personally for questioning a fucking politician. Not sure why you think you can speak to others in such a manner.

If Liz did not vote for Reagan and Bush let her say so. Why wouldn't she?

Here is David Corn reminding us about Reagan era highlights:
"The firing of the air traffic controllers, winnable nuclear war, recallable nuclear missiles, trees that cause pollution, Elliott Abrams lying to Congress, ketchup as a vegetable, colluding with Guatemalan thugs, pardons for F.B.I. lawbreakers, voodoo economics, budget deficits, toasts to Ferdinand Marcos, public housing cutbacks, redbaiting the nuclear freeze movement, James Watt.

"Getting cozy with Argentine fascist generals, tax credits for segregated schools, disinformation campaigns, 'homeless by choice,' Manuel Noriega, falling wages, the HUD scandal, air raids on Libya, 'constructive engagement' with apartheid South Africa, United States Information Agency blacklists of liberal speakers, attacks on OSHA and workplace safety, the invasion of Grenada, assassination manuals, Nancy's astrologer.

"Drug tests, lie detector tests, Fawn Hall, female appointees (8 percent), mining harbors, the S&L scandal, 239 dead U.S. troops in Beirut, Al Haig 'in control,' silence on AIDS, food-stamp reductions, Debategate, White House shredding, Jonas Savimbi, tax cuts for the rich, 'mistakes were made.' "

[AtomicKitten]

250. see

here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6147562

[bemildred]

10. Senator Warren is not to only one who has Republican Values in her past. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. That's a fair point but it still leaves us with problems.

That person held them because it was convenient or because he or she believed in them. If it's the latter what attracted him or her to them in the first place and why does he or she eschew them now.

[bemildred]

17. She's not running.

Hillary will be a disaster. We need somebody else.

I will be candid and say that in my youth I toyed with all sorts of political ideas, some that I now see to be narcississtic drivel, like libertarianism, so such allegations don't carry any weight with me, good smart people learn and change as they go through life, and we start out appeasing our parents and believing what they tell us, so it can be a long process.

[randome]

18. I think you take your username too seriously.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. My mom played this every birthday

In fact my mom and dad told me it was playing in the background when I was conceived.

[LawDeeDah]

21. Those problems are nothing compared to the latest Bill and the sex jet story.

There are a lot of us that don't want this type of crazy Clinton drama, yet again, coming up and pissing all over everything.

[djean111]

36. It leaves YOU with problems. Not "us".

MY problem is with things like the TPP. That is a more Republican thing, it is not what I thought a Democrat would help write and then shill for. Previous and present affiliations be damned.

[Johnyawl]

12. Well aren't you precious...

...that kind of smug, morally superior attitude is just exactly what we need to win the hearts and minds of those not now voting for Democrats.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. If you don't believe we should demand a higher and different level of consistency from our leaders..

If you don't believe we should demand a higher and different level of consistency from our leaders than from our brethren there is nothing I can do to disabuse you of that notion.

[Broward]

24. Well, if you want someone that consisently sides with Wall Street then all by means support Hillary.

[mimi85]

15. Wow, you can knock me over with a feather!

I would NEVER had guessed EW was ever a Republican. You'd sure never know it now.

[RiverLover]

22. That's how I felt when I found out Reagan was first a Democrat.

Or that Hillary was first a republican....well, no that wasn't surprising.

[Bluenorthwest]

121. And there is the Warren Double Standard. Hillary was never a Republican, her parents were and

she was too young to vote. Her first registration was as a Democrat. Warren voted for Republicans starting with Nixon and running through Bush. When we got her Republicans out of the WH and got Bill Clinton in, we were finally able to make some progress in the global fight against AIDS, which Warren's Republicans thought was a big joke. Warren, of course, voted for Bush to continue the horrific ignorance of the Republican policies.
I know why Reagan switched Parties. He did so for political advantage, his agent Lew Wasserman wanted some stuff, so he made himself a Republican to get those things for him and other things for his friends.
I do not know what prompted Warren to finally get tired enough of the bigotry and racism to leave that Party, or if those things bothered her at all. Just don't know. When I ask, her boosters say things about Hillary, or tell me AIDS was not such a big deal.
I tell you this, her boosters are not very good at promotions. They don't seem to know about Warren so when you ask anything they shout 'Hillary' as if there were just two people on Earth and as if the actions of one person vindicate the actions of another.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

131. I thought Nancy Reagan led Ronny to Republicanism

I am glad I never had that problem. Hey, I believe in a good epiphany as much as the next gal or guy but I demand we all be judged by the same standards.

[Bluenorthwest]

244. Gosh no, she was 'casting' basically. Jane was liberal and needed replacing.

It's very interesting material. Wasserman was Reagan's talent agent at MCI, and he wanted to buy Universal Studios. Regulations barred agents from owning studios which employ their clients, so first job was SAG President for Ron, so that he could help MCI/Universal come to being.
Reagan was carefully nurtured for years by his operators. He went as far as they'd hoped in their wildest dreams.

[AtomicKitten]

225. I want people here to know you are purposefully

posting false information.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026101224#post57

Shame on you. Why is it Hillary attracts such horrible people? Keep it up. It will blow up in your face. Just like this kind of negativity did in 2008.

[Bluenorthwest]

241. I don't support Hillary Clinton. I support Bernie Sanders. I did not support Hillary last time

either. Your personal attacks are uncalled for. I have not done that to you. You keep on with 'Hillary this and Hillary that'. Hillary Clinton was among the last major Democrats to finally, at last, support marriage equality after 17 years of opposing us with bullshit excuses and religious allusions. She's my last choice as she was last time.
If Hillary dropped out, I'd still have all the same questions for Liz, as the actions of one person do not excuse, answer for not mitigate the actions of any other person.
Shame on you for your bullshit attacks against me simply asking questions about a candidate. That's really shitty behavior. Just uncalled for.

[AtomicKitten]

249. I don't give a crap about any of that.

It's just subterfuge on your part to avoid the issue and that is you are lying about Elizabeth Warren. Purposely and repeatedly.

[sabrina 1]

253. I'm assuming then, that you did not vote for Obama in 2008.

Why was Hillary your last choice in 2008 considering Obama's position on Gay Rights at that time? Airc he was open about his opposition to Gay Marriage back then.

[Bobbie Jo]

181. Actually, no

Hillary was not "first a Republican." Most Democrats are familiar with this detail.

This is how misinformation gets started, with folks just throwing anything out there as if it were fact.

There are plenty of reasons to take issue with HC, this isn't one of them.

Accuracy matters.

[Mnpaul]

228. You should take that up with the OP

Warren was a Republican '91 - '95

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=237077

I have pointed out this lie numerous times but Clinton supporters just won't let it go. This whole thread is based on misinformation.

[Bobbie Jo]

255. Oh by all means

set the record straight.

No one is stopping you from taking it up with the OP, I just chose to deal with this particular frequent flyer.

btw.....I adore EW!

[Dreamer Tatum]

19. Ah, the puerile expectation of perfection. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I didn't know the pursuit of perfection is childish and nowhere did I even demand it./NT

[Dreamer Tatum]

31. You cast stones at her for not being you.

I get it...you like your heroes cut from whole cloth. Real life is sometimes more complicated than that, however.

[Armstead]

20. And the Clintons acted like Republicans...(and still do when it comes to Corporate Power)

Bill Clinton was in bed with Wall Street and Big Money and pushed for policies that led us to today's disaster.

Hilary is still a comrade with the Big Investors and Big Corps.

If Warren reacted to the excesses of 90's Free Market Conservatism by becoming more liberal, more power to her.

[Baitball Blogger]

26. The only Democrats who seem to fit in my suburb of Orlando are

DINOs, neo-Liberals and Thirdway types.

Haven't come across a true progressive in years.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I voted in Seminole County

Left in 010 so I don't know how it is now. For a lot of offices the Democrats didn't even field a candidate.

[Baitball Blogger]

98. Yup.

I am probably the most underrepresented voter in Seminole County.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

154. Lake is redder, Orange and Volusia are blue.

[treestar]

27. I've always been a Democrat except for a short Independent streak

But I believe Elizabeth Warren has changed her mind and is a Democrat now. I don't like her being used to bash President Obama, other than that, I'm fine with her.

[JustAnotherGen]

33. And she doesn't bash the President

It seems only her strongest supporters for her throwing her hat in the ring do that. I'm not talking about DU per se - but IRL. Facebook wars amongst Democrats aren't pretty right now.

I don't consider Sanders viable as a Democratic candidate until he affiliates officially as one.

But the Warren/Clinton battles are kind of fun to sit back and get a good laugh at. All of these people know damn well that they are going to run to the polls if Cruz or Carson or Paul comes close.

[merrily]

52. Not Cruz. Born in Canada.

[treestar]

59. Right wingers

who claim you can't be a natural born citizen, even if born in the US, if one of your parents was not (the Vattel theory) need to have it rubbed into their faces that they can't claim Cruz is a natural born citizen by their standards either.

[merrily]

64. I am not sure you can be "a natural born citizen" within the meaning of the Constitution if you were

not born in the US or US controlled land, like a military base (McCain). I don't think that has to do with being a right winger or a left winger. It has to do with what the Constitution says and means. Naturalization is mentioned elsewhere in the Constitution. If a naturalized citizen was okay for the Presidency, I think the Constitution would say so, or would say simply "citizen." It doesn't. It specifies "natural born citizen." And that was a document written when immigrants made up a lot of the US population.

[treestar]

75. Cruz is a natural born citizen

He was one at birth because his mother was a US citizen, so long as she lived in the US the prescribed number of years.

It was right wingers who didn't want that to count as "natural born" though they would admit the person was a citizen at birth. Eligible for everything but being POTUS.

That was what they resorted to when they were the ones at least rational enough to admit President Obama was born in the US. By their own calculations, Cruz should not be a natural born citizen because his father was not born in the US.

Now as to what they would make of his actually being born off US soil, we'll never know, since they will admit to his being a citizen on that ground and claim it goes into the category of natural born, since his mother was born in the US.

They were trying to create two categories of native born US citizens: natural born (both parents born in US) and not-natural born (one parent not born in the US).

[merrily]

80. The only thing the SCOTUS has said so far is nation of birth, though that was dicta, not parents.

I think it has to do with presumed loyalty. You could be born to an American citizen, but live all your life abroad, ala Downton Abbey. If the US and England were at odds, where would the loyalties of the Downton Abbey lasses lie, despite their American mum?

[treestar]

83. Yes, even if eligible

It's hard to picture any subset of the voters wanting to vote for such a person, so Lady Mary is out of luck there, even if she may be a natural born citizen of the U.S.

Naturalized citizens would be more likely to be loyal, having chosen the U.S. as their country.

[merrily]

87. I am not at all sure Lady Mary is a natural born citizen within the meaning of the Constitution.

That was my point. I think the Constitution may well refer to where you were born, not to whom you were born.

I know some people with dual citizenship, born abroad, naturalized here, mostly to qualify for Social Security in their old age. Spent only enough time here to get citizenship. Lived abroad the rest of their liives. I would never want them to be President. I am even pissed they can vote with an absentee ballot. And one of them is a cousin! (She votes Republican. Loved Bush.)

[treestar]

155. Depends on when Cora left to reside in the UK permanently

Given she was of such a wealthy class, she probably didn't marry younger then 19, so she could have resided in the US the required 5 years after the age of 14. So likely she passed her citizenship on to her daughters. That was probably the law at the time which was later changed so somebody like Ann Dunham would have been able to pass hers on had she had Barack outside the country. As it was, at only 18, she could not have the required number of years. I remember this argument when people said well, even if he was born in Kenya, he's still a citizen because his mother is, and the birthers went to look that up to find she was not eligible if she lived outside the US before age 19. Which was all stupid, but then birthers are stupid.

Cruz would have in his favor, I think, that he did grow up in the US. Not sure when he was transported here from Canada.

[merrily]

163. Actually, it depends 100% on how the SCOTUS interprets "natural born citizen."

So far, all they've said, albeit in dicta, is that one born in a country has always been understood to a natural born citizen of that country, meaning that is how the Framers understood it when they wrote the language into the Constitution.

Whether the Supremes would take into consideration more modern views or just corruptly rule in Cruz's favor because he is a Republican and so are they, I can't predict. They've done worse, as we all know. However, I don't think Dems should just cave on this. It should be a lawsuit, esp. after all the birther nonsense.

[JustAnotherGen]

68. Thop it thumper!

I hate when you agree with Donald Trump on a Tuesday!

[merrily]

78. Trump was told that during an interview, while he was yelping about Obama.

Trump's reaction: Well, I don't know if that's true. (or something like that).

Obama was born in Hawaii and Trump didn't know if it was true. Cruz was born in Canada and Trump didn't know if that was true. No double standard at all.

[JustAnotherGen]

79. Love it!

He's an idiot!

[merrily]

82. An idiot who had a rich dad and knows how to work the bankruptcy system.

But a bigger blowhard has probably never walked the earth (and I am unanimous in that).

[TheNutcracker]

28. and Bernie Sanders the most progressive in the U.S. is an Independent!!!

[krispos42]

29. She was not an elected official until 2012

She was a university professor for several decades and began advocating for consumer-protection laws about the time she became a Democrat... probably upon realizing the dangers that Republican-led crony capitalism was posing to the country.

And if I recall my history, about 1995 the country began taking a hard-right turn. Contract with/on America, anybody?

[div class=excerpt style=background:#AFEEEE]In 1995, Warren was asked to advise the National Bankruptcy Review Commission.[27] She helped to draft the commission's report and worked for several years to oppose legislation intended to severely restrict the right of consumers to file for bankruptcy. Warren and others opposing the legislation were not successful; in 2005 Congress passed the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005.[28]

From November 2006 to November 2010, Warren was a member of the FDIC Advisory Committee on Economic Inclusion.[29] She is a member of the National Bankruptcy Conference, an independent organization that advises the U.S. Congress on bankruptcy law.[30] She is a former Vice-President of the American Law Institute and a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.[31]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Warren#Career


She didn't switch parties to run for office, like Joe Lieberman or Charlie Christ or Lincoln Chafee.

We can't attack people for changing their political views over time if there is no ulterior motive.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. It took a hard right turn in 1995?

I remember sitting with a Poli Sci professor in his office on the day after the 1980 election, and he said "it feels like Nazi Germany, 1932."

Of course he was being hyperbolic but the 80s were the pinnacle of right wing ascendancy.

[krispos42]

45. The first time conservatives had the House in decades was in 1995

And they've had it most of the time since then. So that's definitely a milestone. That and Third-Way Clinton enabling them on economic issues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. I don't know how old you are but the 80s were a dark time for those on the left.

Reagan had captured the imagination of the nation or at least a large and vocal part of it, even young people...

If you held liberal beliefs you certainly felt isolated.

[merrily]

60. Hillary put Reagan on her list of 10 best Presidents in all of US history.

[dsc]

166. I would like a link for that

[merrily]

178. Google Hillary 2007 2008 List Ten Best Presidents See how easy it is to find a link

to that particular story. I remember it being reported at the time. They were both asked for a list. Both their lists included Reagan, Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson and FDR. Her list, though not Obama's, also included Bill Clinton. I don't remember the other names on either list.

It was reported, but not a huge story, even then. You can believe me or not. Either way, it's not worth spending the next ten hours, or even the next two hours, reading through 8 years of google hits about Hillary and/or the 2008 campaign.

[dsc]

197. I did google

Hillary Clinton Reagan among top 10 Presidents and got nada. BTW I tried you suggested terms and still nada. So let me repeat. I want a link where she said that.

[merrily]

200. Depending on wording, I got between over 11 million and over 57 million hits, as one might expect

with words like Hillary primary list and Presidents. I doubt you checked all those hits, even just all the titles, and I don't intend to.


So, see my Reply 178 again since you apparently missed what it says the first time you read it.

[JI7]

232. i put in : hillary clinton top ten reagan ,and didn't get anything about her list of top presidents

[delrem]

233. I got this result (took approx 5 minutes search)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/01/18/439124/-Hillary-Clinton-s-Favorite-Presidents-Reagan-George-H-W-Bush

This press release from HillaryClinton.com provides a helpful list of Hillary Clinton's favorite presidents.

"But no president can do it alone. She must break recent tradition, cast cronyism aside and fill her cabinet with the best people, not only the best Democrats, but the best Republicans as well.. We’re confident she will do that. Her list of favorite presidents - Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Lincoln, both Roosevelts, Truman, George H.W. Bush and Reagan - demonstrates how she thinks. As expected, Bill Clinton was also included on the aforementioned list."

Please note that's her own Web campaign site.

...

[merrily]

234. Thank you, but that is the not the story I recall. The story I recall included a list of

ten names from each of her and Obama. It was not a press release from her office. I appreciate your efforts.

[delrem]

256. yah, it's the closest I could get to an exact match.

The link at KOS is out-dated, I guess because the HRC '08 primary campaign is long over.
The addendums to the story explain how HRC's team walked the story back and put a bit of context to it. Fair is fair.

Nevertheless, I don't doubt that both HRC and BHO learned a lot from the actor, Ronald Reagan, about how presentation and rhetoric accompanied by a sappy story can bafflegab the MSM, which thrives on bafflegab.

[merrily]

257. No worries. That she mentioned Bush 42 and Reagan

in response to the specific question that the Kos write up does mention, while Dimson and a lot of Bush 42's crew were "serving" says a lot anyway, no matter how her response is sliced and diced. JMO. And this issue is not exactly the most pivotal objection to her anyway.

[delrem]

258. Yes, this issue is at distraction level.

Considering what is going on, the issues - what is at stake.

Luv ya, merrily.

[merrily]

247. BTW, did you try clicking on the link?

The resource you are looking for has been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.

[lumberjack_jeff]

243. He was certainly one of the most effective.

He got his shit done. The fact that it was shit is another issue.

[Armstead]

103. The only difference between the 80's and 90's....

is that Reagan and the GOP were open about being right wing free-market corporatists.

Clinton and the 3rd Way Dems put through policies that were even more right wing/corporatist, but used smoke and mirrors to disguise it.

[merrily]

125. And, indeed, Reagan's victory was what facilitated take over of the Dem Party by DLCers.

It also gave us Super Delegates, able to override primary voters. That had been attempted by undemocratic Democrats after McGovern but failed. However, they did reverse McGovern's reforms, instituted to make the Dem Party more democratic (small d), during the time McGovern was head of the Party.

Interestingly, most or all of the DLC founding members that wiki lists were Southern males who ran for the Presidency or whose names had been linked to the Presidency.

The exceptions were Hillary, who obviously is not male, but was "Southern by marriage and residency" and Lieberman, who is not Southern. And, as we know, the South had been going red in Presidentials since passage of the Civil Rights Act under Johnson. So, my suspicion is that they changed the Party to improve their own chances at winning a Presidential, esp. carrying their own state in a Presidential (which McGovern had failed to do).

Gore still couldn't carry his home state in a Presidential, but that indeed may have had something to do with Monica and Bush's promise to restore dignity to the Oval Office (or whatever the hell Bush's dog whistle for "no bjs in the Oval Office" was in 2000.)

[krispos42]

162. Nearly forty.

Sounds like Elizabeth Warren bucked the trend of conservative political ascendancy back in the mid-90s.

I agree the 80s sucked. A look at any economic chart will prove that without a doubt!

[dsc]

58. the gop of the 80's literally laughed at AIDS

while it was killing an entire generation of gay men.

[merrily]

72. Please see Reply 60.

We know how Warren voted in the 1980s because she said so. What of a woman who, as of 2008, thought Reagan was one of the 10 best Presidents in all of US history, right up there with Washington, Lincoln and Jefferson.

So, either Hillary also voted for Reagan, or she voted against a man she thought was one of the best Presidents in US history out of sheer partisanship, without regard for what she thought best for the country.

[Bluenorthwest]

137. When asked about Warren's past history, her boosters first dismiss it then attack Hillary's past

history. Questions about one person can not be answered with material about another. Hillary was against marriage equality until about 18 months ago, she's not my standard.
After Reagan came Bush. Warren voted for Bush. One can safely assume Hillary voted for Bill Clinton, not for George Bush.
So what about that? Voting for Bush over Clinton, now her boosters advance Warren mostly by opposing Clinton.
I will tell you right now I was very glad to defeat Warren's Republicans and elect Bill Clinton. It was the first chance to reverse the endless deaths.

[merrily]

145. Can one really "safely assume" that Hillary did not vote for Reagan? Why? Please see Reply 72.

Questions about one person can not be answered with material about another.

Perhaps not. However, if someone claims they can't vote for Warren because she voted Republican, but they love them some Hillary, like the OP of this thread is doing, and as so many of DU's unconditional party loyalists do, how is it NOT both relevant and appropriate to say Hillary was Republican, too, and until 2008, loved her some Reagan?

Hillary not only voted Republican, she attended conventions. I don't know about you, but it's been forever, literally, since anyone gave me tickets to a Democratic national convention. She had to have had connections within the Party.

And btw, I am not a booster for anyone at this point. If anything, I am anti coronation and pro fact.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

191. I will vote for anybody with a (D) after their name even if they were an (R)

The point of my thread wasn't to withhold support for any Democrat or to ask others to withhold theirs.

[merrily]

199. When I said "can't vote for Warren, I meant the primary, not the general.

[Bluenorthwest]

246. Try to wrap your head around this: I don't care about Hillary. If she gets the nomination

I'll vote for her, same as Warren. At this point, neither have my Primary support because both are to my right on issues that matter to me.
But I sure agree with you as being anti coronation, I am a huge Primary supporter, I support the Primary. My favorite of the potentials is Bernie, but I'm a gay liberal, my Primary choices usually do not get the nomination, by usually I mean never. Not even once.
If I am considering a primary candidate, I will grill the fuck out of that person. If I think they might win, I will instantly begin to advocate my positions to them and to their boosters. When I have to support a candidate that has views I detest, as I did for Obama in 08 when he was opposed to marriage equality, I will never let up on that detested view, and frankly that worked out great with Obama. Obama's early supporters on DU still hold it against me that I advocated for my community to the candidate I thought would win rather than pretending to agree with him. I don't give a fuck, he got elected, his views moved to where I wanted them, that's what politics is for.

[merrily]

248. I think we agree on bottom line substance. On anything I can recall, in fact.

I was, however, replying to comments in your post about Hillary and not suffering from head wrapping challenges. And, perhaps, I was also influenced by comments made by you about Hillary v. Warren on other threads as well.

For me, Hillary might possibly be the last choice of anyone whose name has been mentioned so far, but bottom line, I expect we'd come out in the same place ultimately.

[AtomicKitten]

226. You're still lying about how Warren voted.

She has never divulged that info and you are just making it up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026101224#post57

[NYC Liberal]

164. People still spreading that lame myth about Hillary saying Reagan was one of the "best presidents"?

That was debunked years ago. As in 2008. She never said any such thing, and never listed Reagan as "one of the 10 best Presidents in all of US history". Ever.

You mention her attending "Republican conventions" in another post, when in fact she attended only ONE (during a college internship in DC) and found what she heard there so disgusting and racist that it permanently cemented her opposition to the GOP.

People around here freak out about Hillary supporting Barry Goldwater for a few years as a teenager while being raised in a very conservative household, yet they never mention her supporting Eugene McCarthy in 1968 (the first election after she left home). Then they turn around and sing the praises of Elizabeth Warren, who was an active, voting Republican well into her 40s.

[merrily]

167. Not a myth. She and Obama were asked for lists of 10 Best Presidents in 2008.

You mention her attending "Republican conventions" in another post, when in fact she attended only ONE (during a college internship in DC) and found what she heard there so disgusting and racist that it permanently cemented her opposition to the GOP.

Well, she was part of Goldwater's campaign and she attended Rockefeller's convention.

We have only her word, told long after the fact, about leaving Rockefeller's convention and why she left it. The bit about not being able to tolerate racism is told by many a politician who had to explain his or her change from Republican to Democrat. It doesn't ring true to me anymore, if ever it did. As to Hillary in particular, after Goldwater's dog whistles, I find it hard to believe what she heard at the Rockefeller convention could have surprised her. And her own 2008 campaign had way too many dog whistles for me to believe she could not stand them.

[NYC Liberal]

169. Yes a myth.

From a statement by the owner the newspaper that printed it:

She [Sen. Clinton] listed several presidents that she admired and mentioned she liked Reagan's communication skills. She did not say Reagan was her favorite President. She didn't say anything close to that.

And, yes, Hillary was "part of Goldwater's campaign" -- as a teenager being raised by a very right-wing father. If you want to crucify her for it, that's your choice. But then you also have to crucify Elizabeth Warren in the same way for being an active and voting Republican well into her 40s -- and that's not on anyone's word, but a documented fact. Hillary leaned conservative for a few years as a teenager raised in a very conservative household, and then changed her thinking as soon as she was on her own in college; Warren was a Republican for decades because she thought they were "better for the markets."

At the end of the day, Warren supports Hillary and thinks she is "terrific". And I support them both.

[merrily]

184. Please see Reply 183.

[OKNancy]

173. you are going to have to backtrack on this untruth

Bad Oppo Alert! Hillary Did Not List Ronald Reagan As Favorite President

1/18/2008 8:55:40 PM

In an effort to divert attention from Senator Obama’s comments about President Reagan and his assertion that the GOP has been the "party of ideas," the Obama campaign circulated an item this evening from the Salmon Press in New Hampshire that asserts that Senator Clinton listed the former President as one of her favorite presidents. In fact, Senator Clinton only complimented President Reagan’s communications skills – an attribute of his that has been widely praised by Americans of all ideological stripes – and did not list him as one of her favorite presidents. She also noted that she respected George H.W. Bush.

David Cutler, the co-owner of Salmon Press Newspapers, released the following statement:

The question posed was originally what portraits would you hang in the White House if you were President and as the dialogue progressed, who are the presidents you admire most?

She [Sen. Clinton] listed several presidents that she admired and mentioned she liked Reagan’s communication skills. She did not say Reagan was her favorite President. She didn’t say anything close to that.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/01/18/439124/-Hillary-Clinton-s-Favorite-Presidents-Reagan-George-H-W-Bush

[merrily]

183. A comment posted at Kos, much as I post here, does not require backtracking.

At your link, Cutler was relating what Hillary answered to a particular question. Cutler was not purporting to say at no time during the campaign did Hillary put Reagan on the list I described.

From your link, this was the question Cutler was talking about: "The question posed was originally what portraits would you hang in the White House if you were President and as the dialogue progressed, who are the presidents you admire most? "

That has nothing to do with my post. I said specifically that Hillary put him on her list of Ten Best Presidents. I was not talking about favorite Presidents or a press release from Hillary's campaign or her answer to a particular question about portraits that Cutler relates at your link.

Again, during the 2007 to 2008 primary, each of Hillary and Obama were asked to name the ten best US Presidents in Us history. Reagan was on both their lists, as were Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, FDR. On Hillary's list was also Bill Clinton. On one or both lists was Truman. This had nothing to do with Cutler's question about portraits or favorites. Therefore, your link, even if it were authoritative as to Hillary's answer to one question, has nothing to do with the lists prepared by both candidates in response to the same request.

[NYC Liberal]

190. Please link to those lists.

[treestar]

157. and the fundies were gleeful downright, because

straight people could get it too, so the scare would force people to observe right wing sexual mores, or so they seemed to think at the time.

[Bluenorthwest]

128. So how is it that a professor and consumer advocate made all those millions, gathering fees for

consulting work in the six figures? She was paid hundreds of thousands at a time to advocate for consumers? To teach? She's worth about 15 million bucks. That did not come from being a professor and advocate for others. It just did not.

[krispos42]

209. You should ask her

I would imagine that during a multi-decade career as a teaching AND research professor for high-end universities, not only did she get a very nice salary but also consulting fees. She was married to both a NASA engineer and a Harvard law professor, so I'm assuming that worked out pretty well in terms of being financially comfortable and avoiding debt.

It's not like she makes $15 million a year like Sean Hannity... that's her lifetime total, and may include marital assets from other highly-educated professionals.

[Douglas Carpenter]

30. "In the same way, I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

than over 99 righteous people who don't need to repent." Luke 15: 7

"Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Doesn't she light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Luke 15: 8-9

[GeorgeGist]

77. Luke was quite the con man.

[merrily]

85. It's the sentiment of Jesus, not Luke. However, if the issue is not

funding AIDS research until after many had died, Bible verses probably are not going to be the most persuasive.

[bluestateguy]

32. I'm all for Hillary

But this is a childish line of attack.

Hillary was a Republican until about 1968.

Wes Clark, who many of us on this board supported for the nomination in 2004, voted twice for Nixon and Reagan.

[JustAnotherGen]

39. My dad and he were the only ones

To admit to voting to Nixon in 68 when they were in West Germany together in the mid 1970's. Lots of ridicule from their peers!

[OKNancy]

158. It's childish, but Hillary was never a voting Republican

She was 17 when she was a Goldwater girl. By the time she could vote ( at age 21 back then) she was already working for Eugene McCarthy.

I do agree with your basic point however.

[Orsino]

34. Party loyalty isn't in itself a virtue. Simply indicates imperviousness to facts.

The Clintons used to be big ol' Democrats, but experience has recast them as well.

[ALBliberal]

35. And she was an Economics professor when she voted republican

That's the most confusing part to me. That she bought into Reaganomics and taught others her philosophy. I need to read her book maybe I will understand her thinking then. I too was a Democrat when it wasn't cool working in public accounting. Frustrating time for sure.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I was in a staff meeting in 1994. There must have been a dozen of us.

The owner of the company said "I can't believe anybody voted for Clinton." This woman and I who knew each others politics chuckled.

[winter is coming]

84. Actually, she was a law professor. n/t

[ALBliberal]

202. thank you I admire her greatly

[madamesilverspurs]

38. Hubris isn't helpful.

I'd rather be grateful for anyone who can see the truth and change accordingly. But then, I'm among those who made the switch so my opinion is worth less than nothing...

[Jackpine Radical]

50. FWIW, I was a Young Republican in the early 60's as an undergrad.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

41. We are worrying about the wrong stuff, and I once wondered about this too, but so what.

My uncle used to be my aunt and now we are the best of friends.

Or something like that.


The thing we need to worry about is can ANY mainstream politician like Liz or Hillary or even Bernie, accomplish ANYTHING Wall Street and the Koch Bros dont want them to?


???

[GoneFishin]

44. She has risked more political capital defending the rights of the middle class than anyone

except maybe Bernie. It goes without saying that she has done more and risked more to reign in the big banks than the President.

I don't care if she was Pastafarian.

Actions speak louder than words. I have grown goddamned tired of eloquent speeches coupled with inaction or contradictory action.

[LawDeeDah]

46. Let's see what else happened in 1995:

1995

June 1995: Monica Lewinsky, 21, comes to the White House as an unpaid intern in the office of Chief of Staff Leon Panetta.

November 1995: Lewinsky and President Bill Clinton begin a sexual relationship, according to audiotapes secretly recorded later by Linda Tripp.

December 1995: Lewinsky moves into a paid position in the Office of Legislative Affairs, handling letters from members of Congress. She frequently ferries mail to the Oval Office.

ooopsie!

I'd be careful in this attempt to malign Warren, because the Clintons have enough skeletons to open several Calcium factories.

[wyldwolf]

57. uh oh! The OP has been warned by LawdeeDuh!

I'd be careful in this attempt to malign Warren, because the Clintons have enough skeletons to open several Calcium factories.

And yet they're still the most popular political figures in the country.

[benz380]

63. Childish play on member's name. Grow up, Corporatist supporter. n/t

[LawDeeDah]

65. that must be my new puppy :)

[wyldwolf]

70. and she tries to be cute, too. Patiently waiting your next right wing info dump

[wyldwolf]

66. Says the guy who just hurled an insult.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. This is a high class thread. Can you gentlemen and ladies keep it that way.

Thank you in advance.

[LawDeeDah]

69. well known, not popular. Their stories are of the Nat'l Inquirer type

not that of mature adults.

[wyldwolf]

76. Actually the correct term is 'popular.'

George W. Bush is well know, too, and he doesn't have Bill Clinton's numbers.

But let me guess, you're going to say 'I don't care what those polls say, you're wrong!! Wahhh Wahhh"

[MineralMan]

67. Is Bill Clinton running for office?

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Monica Lewinsky, either. She's not running for anything, either.

[LawDeeDah]

81. Say Mitch McConnels brother was caught up in a sex trade ring

involving children as young as 12.

Would be no big deal to you, right and you would not use it in any way to besmirch the Turtle? I mean Mitchy is not his brother...

[MineralMan]

130. I would not support Mitch McConnell under any circumstances.

He's a right-winger.

You've brought up a completely separate thing. I won't play.

[merrily]

111. One of the selling points is you get both Clintons for the price of one.

This. from Bubba in 2008, doesn't say "candidate totally independent of her husband" to me

Nor has she disavowed anything he did while in office. To the contrary, she's endorsed specific things, as well as putting him on her list of 10 best Presidents in history--right along with Ronald Reagan.

Moreover, Hillary is the wife who puts up with one revelation and incident of infidelity after another. And THAT says something about Hillary, not Bill or Monica.

[MineralMan]

133. You're welcome to consider anything you think is appropriate.

So am I.

[merrily]

136. Sure. You were the one who raised the issue of Bill's not being the candidate though.

Most post was a response to that. I would not presume to tell anyone what to consider, but I may well reply to something that does not seem consistent with facts.

[MineralMan]

146. See, here's the thing. I make my decision on voting

for President base on one thing and one thing only: Which candidate who can possibly win is likely to support the most things I agree with? In presidential races, that is always the Democrat. For other races on which I vote, I have a direct line on the decision about who will be on the ballot. That's not true for the candidate for President. For that race, I'm just one vote in a primary election. I will never be a delegate to the Democratic National Convention. I will, however be a delegate to my state convention.

If you're here just to trash Hillary Clinton's candidacy, you will become more and more irrelevant as the primaries occur, I think. If you continue to trash her if she becomes the Democratic nominee, you'll hear more from me, I assure you.

[merrily]

148. I don't think Hillary will win the general, if she is the nominee.

If you're here just to trash Hillary Clinton's candidacy,

Hardly. I've been here for several years and have posted on many threads that have nothing to do with Hillary.

you will become more and more irrelevant as the primaries occur, I think.

I am not here to be relevant to Hillary's supporters. You are already not that relevant to many at DU. You don't seem worried about that. I may already be irrelevant (or worse) to DU's right. I am not worried about that.

If you continue to trash her if she becomes the Democratic nominee, you'll hear more from me, I assure you.

Define "trash." Disagreeing with you? Not accepting the coronation?

Is hearing from you supposed to be a threat? I'm hearing from you now. Doesn't really bother me.

[LawDeeDah]

138. I'm glad that you finally see you can't believe the Clintons all the time.

They call Themselves a team, partners, blah blah many times over the years and have been written about as such with glowing touchy feeling feelings about how 'close' they are and how interchangeable.

But you can disbelieve all that if it suits you better.

[MineralMan]

144. I don't believe anyone all the time.

I'm not sure where you got that idea. What I do is vote for the best candidate who can win in every election. I expect that Hillary Clinton will be the Democratic nominee in 2016, since I don't see any viable candidate who will run against her in the primaries. Do I agree with her 100%? No, but I've never agreed with any Presidential candidate 100% and don't every expect to.

You can do whatever you think best. It's nothing to me, and won't affect my vote in any way.

I do object, however, to your posting the same arguments the Republicans are using against Hillary Clinton. They don't make any sense. You will, of course, do as you see fit.

[immoderate]

176. The "10 Best Presidents" is a harder list to fill than "The 40 Worst Ones."

--imm

[freshwest]

214. I'd like to thank you again for that excellent OP with those paragraphs...

[Octafish]

51. Good thing she has INTEGRITY.

Elizabeth Warren wants to put Banksters behind bars, not apply to work for them.

[WillyT]

54. And Hillary Clinton Was A "Goldwater Girl"... Elizabeth Warren Has Learned The Error Of Her Ways...

HRC... Jury Is Still Out.

[merrily]

89. Please see also Reply 72.

[LawDeeDah]

120. Can I ask which one is Hillary? I can't tell. 2nd from right wth the frown?

[unblock]

71. and reagan used to be a democrat. so?

[Ichingcarpenter]

86. I'd liked to agree with you

But then we'd both be wrong



Hillary is JP Morgan,Goldman Sachs,Citibank democrat and yes
You get Bill with her, he even said so. No thanks

Notice your support for your thread?

[AZ Progressive]

88. FDR was a Republican that switched to the Democratic Party as well nt

[YoungDemCA]

90. Not true

He supported his Republican relative Teddy Roosevelt yes, but I'd hardly call Teddy a "typical" Republican-in any era.

But Franklin was always a Democrat.

[merrily]

118. Remember: Republicans were the liberals when Lincoln ran.

Gradually, the parties transition and crossed over, but it took a long time for that info to filter down to the rank and file. Hence, Martin Luther King Sr was a Republican until JFK got Martin Luther King Jr out of jail. And--and this I still cannot believe---Senator Brooke ran as a Republican. Years later, he would say he hadn't realized that the Republicans were no longer the pro equal rights party.



And Teddy R. was part of the liberal wing that left the Party (after he was President) to start the Progressive Party.

[merrily]

93. Not so. FDR's side of the family was Democratic. So was he.

Roosevelt attended Groton School, an Episcopal boarding school in Massachusetts; 90% of the students were from families on the social register. He was strongly influenced by its headmaster, Endicott Peabody, who preached the duty of Christians to help the less fortunate and urged his students to enter public service. Forty years later Roosevelt said of Peabody, "It was a blessing in my life to have the privilege of [his] guiding hand",[20] and the headmaster remained a strong influence throughout his life, officiating at his wedding and visiting Roosevelt as president.[21] Peabody recalled Roosevelt as "a quiet, satisfactory boy of more than ordinary intelligence, taking a good position in his form but not brilliant",[22] while a classmate described Roosevelt as "nice, but completely colorless"; an average student, he only stood out in being the only Democratic student, continuing the political tradition of his side of the Roosevelt family.[23] Roosevelt remained consistent in his politics; immediately after his fourth election to the presidency, he defined his domestic policy as "a little left of center".[24][25]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt

[KamaAina]

92. And Hillary was up until the late '60s.

Your point?

Could it be that Elizabeth saw the damage that three terms of Reagan-Bush wrought and jumped ship?

[merrily]

100. Please see Reply 72.

[think]

95. Who's supporting the right issues now? That is kind of important..... /nt

[99Forever]

96. 20 effing years ago? ???

I care about what candidates are NOW.

Lamest attempt at a smear. EVER.

[merrily]

101. Please see Reply 72.

Lame, yet persistent. I don't think anyone can seriously question that Warren is a Democrat now, and a populist Democrat to boot.

Hillary on the other hand, like her husband, Joe Lieberman and others, was a founding member of the DLC which, IMO, took the Democratic Party from the Party of FDR to where it is now.

The DLC corporation may technically have dissolved (as those who fixate on irrelevancies are comically quick to remind us), but its policies live on in all the think tanks it spawned, Progressive Policy Institute, Third Way, Center for American Progress (Podesta's), No Labels, etc. And in all the New Democrats who followed the lead of the Clintons.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

147. When it occurred is not as relative as the age of the person when it occurred.

She was in her forties, forty six to be exact when she had her epiphany.

At that age , Robert Kennedy, John Kennedy, and Dr. King had already met their makers.

[99Forever]

168. Please stop insulting our intelligence.

Your sales pitch needs an overhaul. Better inform Team Goldman Sachs that their messaging is a fail.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

170. I will try to do better. Perhaps I should incorporate some ad hominem attacks in my pitch.

I have some really good zingers.

Oh, and DemocratSinceBirth always made his nut or quota without selling out.

[Throd]

102. People aren't allowed to evolve politically?

You sound like a pissed off hipster who's favorite obscure indie band gets mainstream radio play.

[outside]

107. Democrats and Republicans

are different sides of the same coin. Their sales people selling their brand. Today it's Toyota's tomorrow it's Honda's. They don't care as long as a pay check keeps coming in.

[ScreamingMeemie]

109. In 1988, I voted for George H.W.... because I was young and didn't know any better.

This post is ridiculous.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

122. Ms. Warren had her epiphany at 46 years old. That doesn't sound like a youthful indiscretion/NT

[ScreamingMeemie]

129. This is how much I care...

...


...

....

It's not who you were then, it's what you've done now. Again, this is a ridiculous post.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

134. If you don't care for all of the victims of Nixon's, Reagans, And Bush Pere's policies...

If you don't care for all of the victims of Nixon's, Reagans, And Bush Pere's policies there is nothing a random internet poster can do to convince you to care.

[ScreamingMeemie]

149. ...

...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

151. Silence can be taken as consent in this instance. Thank you for your acquiescence.

[LawDeeDah]

204. How much do you care about the victims of the Iraq war, the one Hillary wanted, that war?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

207. I will support the Democratic candidate in 016

I already pulled the lever three times for candidates who supported the Iraq War Resolution; Kerry in 04 and Biden in 08 and 012.

[LawDeeDah]

213. About Kerry and Biden, there is that and it's not pleasant at all to know

they were fooled by a dry drunk as much as Hillary was.
But the Iraqi's suffered almost as much through death and destruction with Bill Clinton as with George Jooner. About the same number of people died in Iraq under Clintons watch as George's war adventure.

So you have 2 Clintons that had a hand in destroying Iraqi's. At least we can agree that they were a couple, a team, of same mind on this matter amidst all the clatter about Hillary being her own entity when they themselves sell themslves as a 2 for 1.

[1bigdude]

110. She also claimed to be Native American for quite some time...NT

[LawDeeDah]

152. and how does that measure up to the Sniper story? or voting for people to die?

plus, that NA story was a lot of fun for the right wing and Scott Brown, but I see that is has been implanted here now as a legitimate reason to be suspicious of Warren. Very amateur.

You really are not doing the Clintons any favors by this weak sauce, easily rebuffed type of attempt. It's hilarious.

[Jim Lane]

185. That was her family lore. It may or may not have been true.

Several of her family members recall being told the same thing in their youth. Many people in Oklahoma (her native state) have some Native American blood, but the genealogical records don't provide complete information.

What is clear from the record, though, is that Scott Brown wasn't accurate in charging that Warren had made a false claim of Native ancestry in order to get some kind of advantage. She just checked off a box on a form for the school directory.

The strongest accusation one can make is that Harvard erred in listing her as a minority for faculty diversity purposes. The reason is that even some Cherokee ancestry wouldn't be enough to make her part-Native according to the official definition (she hadn't maintained ties with the tribe).

[freshwest]

215. And the Koch candidate ran into the ditch on that. Please consider the source of the attack meme.

[Mnpaul]

229. Republican talking points at DU?

What next, are you going to call her FAUXAHONTAS?

[Myrina]

115. ... and so was Jim Webb. And Wesley Clark (IIRC).

The Dem establishment lurves them, anyway.

So what's your point?

[Maedhros]

116. I'm not so concerned with what party Warren belonged to 20 years ago,

as with what she is doing RIGHT NOW.

Similarly, I don't dislike Hillary as a candidate because of her Goldwater Republican years. I dislike her for what she has been doing since 2001.

[1bigdude]

117. The false Native American claim looks idiotic. Nt

[RiverLover]

123. So you believe RW media?

It wasn't false. Its proven to be true.


Elizabeth Warren Is Part Native American

—By Tim Murphy
| Tue May 1, 2012

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/05/elizabeth-warren-is-part-native-american

[LanternWaste]

139. I used to be intractable, absolute, and criticize others for their changing and evolving worldviews

I used to be intractable in my dogma, absolute in my opinions, and criticize others for their changing and evolving worldviews too. I would imply I had absolute knowledge of why their views changed so I could feel more clever about myself and my choices too.

The staid, stolid, unchanging individual is rather attractive to many dogmatic people.

[djean111]

141. Warren accepted family lore about being part Indian.

Hell, I accepted that my original ancestor who came to America was Welsh, and so I assumed I was of Welsh ancestry until a few years ago, when I found out the guy came over from England - and married a Lenni Lenape woman.
That was in the 1680s or so, though, and I doubt I have any Lenni Lenape blood.

In any event, the TPP is more meaningful than the Indian thing. Hillary KNOWS the TPP is bad for working Americans.

[RiverLover]

171. And her family was proven correct. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

143. I actually think that's a big reason why Warren doesn't want to run for Prez

It's simply too hard for her to explain without being mocked.

How can you support Reagan and his race-baiting, gay bashing, and trickle down economics?

It's too hard for her to explain, so she will avoid.

[Jim Lane]

193. To the contrary, it would be a PLUS for her.

First, it's completely unacceptable for you to impute to her support for every Reagan policy. She was certainly a registered Republican and she probably voted for many Republican candidates. That's not enough to equate to support for all Reagan policies. I voted for Bill Clinton despite disagreement with some of his policies (including his gay-bashing with DOMA).

Beyond that, what would be the political effects? A notable fact of modern American politics is the rightward lurch of the Republican Party. A few people, like Lincoln Chafee and Charlie Crist, have formally abandoned it. Nevertheless, I think there are many who stay in the party out of loyalty and tradition (and inertia), but who are troubled by its current stance. Someone who used to be a Republican would have an edge in getting those people to overcome their habit of voting Republican.

Ronald Reagan was a registered Democrat at a later age than Warren was a registered Republican. It didn't seem to hinder his electoral effectiveness.

In fact, I remember some debate or news conference where Reagan was asked about something he'd said earlier. He responded along the lines of, "That was when I was a Democrat. I said a lot of silly things back then." Warren could similarly mock the Republicans while making political hay out of her own history of having recognized which party deserved her support.

[bluedigger]

150. Good for her - another triumph of progressive ideology over conservativism.

Our goal should be to make all Republicans former Republicans, not to relegate them to second hand status based on false purity tests.

[madamesilverspurs]

153. At my first caucus as a Democrat

I told them up front that I'd recently changed party affiliation. Without any hesitation the precinct captain smiled, extended her hand and said, "Welcome to the light!"

Had I been met with judgmental recrimination I'd have been out the door in a heartbeat.

[davidpdx]

266. Amen to that

[jeff47]

160. It's good to know that people never, ever, ever change their minds on any subject.

[HappyMe]

161. OMG!!1!

That fact doesn't make me like Hillary.

[Trajan]

165. First, people change, and we allow for that

Second, she is more focused on Liberal/Progressive policies than anybody other than Bernie Sanders. ..

She would get my vote in an instant ..

DU attackers? ... nope ... no vote from me ...


SUMMARY
------------------
Warren 1
DU attackers 0

[Avalux]

172. So much silliness, judging people on labels and not their actions.

Is there any action Elizabeth Warren has taken while in public office that causes me to think she's not progressive? NOPE.

End of Story.

We should all focus on what people do instead of what they call themselves. Labels are a judgement trap.

[Nye Bevan]

174. If Robert Byrd can be forgiven for being a senior Klansman

surely Warren can be forgiven for being a former Reagan and HW Bush fan.

[demmiblue]

175. I have read many of your posts...

Elizabeth Warren is a far better representative of/for the Democratic party than you are. Republican roots and all.

P.S. You may want to rethink the cool thing. Mission creep.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

186. "I have read many of your posts Elizabeth Warren is a far better representative..."

"Elizabeth Warren is a far better representative of/for the Democratic party than you are"


Then reading comprehension must not be your forte.


I will match my Democratic bona fides with someone who voted for Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan , and Bush Pere while I was actively working against them...


Hey, I might have been a Republican too if it put $15,000,000.00 in my coffers but I wasn't and it didn't.

DemocratSinceBirth
American by birth
Democrat by the grace of G-d

[demmiblue]

201. I am also a life-long dem,

but you strike me as a wee bit of a zealot.

Perhaps this is some sort of parody, sanctioned by the grace of D-g.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

205. If I'm a zealot then I am a zealous Democrat, something you implied I really wasn't.

And maybe I am being a little cheeky. I knew I was opening up a can of worms when I hit the "post my reply" icon but " in for a dime, in for a dollar."

I hope your candidate does well and my candidate, whomever he or she might be, does well, and we are both supporting the same candidate in the Fall of 2016.

PEACE
DSB

[olddots]

177. in 1960 I wanted Alfred E. Newman to be president

Neener neener bla bla ,
......come on people

[tenderfoot]

179. That's nothing. There's a lot of republicans here that pretend to be democrats

eom

[herding cats]

180. Do you have some issue with Senator Warren's work?

Is she in anyway doing something which you find to go against the Democratic platform, or that you're taking exception to? If so spit it out and start a discussion about it. If not then just be glad, along with the majority of us, she's doing what she's doing to help.

[Exultant Democracy]

182. Does this make anyone else miss 1995 republicans?

I would give my right nut to have Bob Dole back leading their party. He was not fully insane by any measure and while I didn't agree with him on anything he at least seemed to share a common reality with me.

[Warren Stupidity]

188. No they sucked ass too.

[Exultant Democracy]

219. So you see no differences between them and todays teapublicans?

[Warren Stupidity]

245. How old are you? Were you old enough to remember the nutbags who came in with Reagan?

Old enough to remember Newt as speaker? Were you around for the 6 year effort to find something to impeach Clinton for? The prototype of "obstruct everything" in the republican congress? The teabag branch of the republican party is *reasserting* the nuttery of the fruitcakes who brought us reaganomics. The Republican Party went far right with the ascendancy of Reagan and his nut-job wing commanders. They pulled back the abject nuttery a bit with Bush-I, and tried to reinvent it as compassionate conservatism under Bush-II, but the abject nuttery was still there. A better question would be "do you miss Nixon era republicans?", and the answer would still be "no they sucked ass too", however they certainly were not, with the exception of the Goldwater faction, as looney tunes as the post 1980 party.

[zappaman]

187. So what? Did she or her husband have "burner phones"?

[Douglas Carpenter]

189. good point! One of the fundementals of progressive values is that people must never-ever change

their minds about anything. If they were once wrong - it is more moral and ethical to stay wrong than to admit they made a mistake and were wrong. That is why classic ethical teaching prohibits the concept of redemptions and repentance. This is one of our core values as a civilized people that those who have done wrong must never change their ways. This would be shameful and dishonorable. The righteous person who discovers they are wrong always, always continues to do wrong. This is basic ethics.

[0rganism]

192. so what you're saying is, she hasn't been a republican for 20 years

i can remember some of who i was in the '90s, i believed a lot of things i don't believe now, and i did a lot of really stupid jacked up things back then that i'd never do now. she was a republican then, eh? so kudos to her for having seen her mistakes and moved so strongly to correct them.

[1bigdude]

194. Any chance Hillary would offer VP slot to Elizabeth? If not, whom would be her best choice? NT

[djean111]

206. That would be a total waste of Warren.

There are recent threads here, asking that question, though!

[mmonk]

196. All I know is her current political positions are the right ones and the Clinton/Rubin policies

concerning trade and deregulation were disastrous for the country. I leave all the silly pedigree arguments behind.

[SalviaBlue]

198. You are a Democrat since birth?

Is that because your parents were Democrats when you were born? Is that how everyone should determine their political affiliation? By that logic I would be a Republican (I am not).

In the real world, most of us determine where we stand after having some life experiences and then choose for ourselves; we do not let our parents choose for us at our birth.

BTW, your MLK quote supports Elizabeth Warren's evolution (and mine).

[Bluenorthwest]

238. I'm gay. Back in my youth that left

my choices as 'The Party of the Briggs Amendment and Anita Bryant' or 'Harvey Milk's Party'. I knew where I stood and also where the Parties stood long, long before I was old enough to vote. Long, long before. The Republicans were gay hating racists. I was not. Simple deduction for many of us, but oddly some found the choice perplexing......

[davidpdx]

265. I agree with you mostly, but in my case I was an exception to the rule

I decided I was a Democrat in my early teens. Maybe I didn't fully understand why I leaned that direction, but that was still my decision. I remember watching the 1980 election results (I would have been 9 at the time) and the 1984 election results (I was 13 then). I would say by the latter I definitely had made up my mind that I was a Democrat (maybe earlier than that).

As for this thread in general it is a bunch of trash talking shit.

[nationalize the fed]

208. Obama in 2012: My policies are republican

[mmonk]

210. But not as moderate as Ike.

[DesertDawg]

211. I was Conservative until 2012

Point being: People can and DO change.

[daredtowork]

212. The "Fake Native American" Story Will Be More of a Problem

The reason is a large part of America has mixed race heritage, and a large part of the GOP is fueled by covert and not-so-covert resent of affirmative action policies. Warren's embrace of her Native American background is an implicit claim to affirmative action benefits whether she actual got some sort of boost from making this claim or not. All the people who also have "some" Native American blood but not enough to get an affirmative action benefit out of it are going to be grouchy.

I have a direct example from my own background. In grad school I knew someone who claimed to be "Cherokee" (fairly spurious) - he got a full ride to grad school even though he wasn't a stellar student and he was the wealthy son of a podiatrist. I'm 1/8 native American and from a poor, rural family - but since I'm not "culturally" Native American, I've never affiliated with any tribe or attempted to claim any affirmative action benefit from this. In the scheme of things, that grad school fellowship should have gone to someone like me, since that "Cherokee" guy wasn't culturally Native American either - he was into beer, baseball, and fast food. Around the same time I was in a dissertation seminar where several people were sharing their progress on dissertations on the mixed race experience and cultural/racial boundaries. I asked if anyone had felt pressured to define their race to qualify for a fellowship. After class I was told in no uncertain terms by the professor that I could not ask that sort of question. It did not occur to her that I could have been asking whether to redefine myself rather than questioning the benefits obtained by those already in the room.

Again the Native American question is more fraught than any other racial category because this is a mixed race aspect of a lot of "white" America. There was a Thanksgiving episode of Roseanne many years ago where Roseanne joked how every woman in America is descended from an "Indian Princess". That blood allows some people to claim affirmative action benefits *seemingly* by just checking off a box on a form. Some people will check off the box and take the spoils. Other people will morally refrain from checking off the box and resent those who do.

There are a lot of issues that Progressives shrug off because they think they are "stupid", because they've already intellectually dismissed them: then they get blindsided by the way people vote. I hope they don't brush off the "fake Native American" thing, because that one has the underlying of power of a class grievance. Much more so than Elizabeth Warren was once a Republican.

[RiverLover]

236. She is part Cherokee. Not a fake story.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/05/elizabeth-warren-is-part-native-american

And she never used it to get a job.

[daredtowork]

259. Not arguing whether she is or not

The issue is how it will come up during a campaign.

Cherokee is a particularly tricky one - and I know this because of my over-privileged classmate that took advantage of it. Since they were wiped out at one point, establishing credentials/tribal membership is more ambiguous. At least it was it was for him.

As I mentioned, I'm also part Native American, and so are a lot of people in the U.S. There is a lot of psychological and cultural "stuff" going on over who claims this identity and whether they get a special benefit for doing so. I really think it's going to take Warren's campaign by surprise how important this minor "meme" is going to turn out to be. Matters of identity and checkboxes on forms are at the heart of the American experience right now.

[daredtowork]

260. Just Read the Article

Warren can't remember whether she did invoke her heritage in the past.

I'm 1/8 Abenaki, so I'm more Abenaki than Warren is Cherokee, and I believe I'm eligible for tribal membership. But I've never sought that membership, and I personally believe I shouldn't seek benefits earmarked for a minority unless I culturally identify with that minority and/or I identify culturally with that minority. Because my Mom was embarrassed over her background, and my grandfather died when she was young, I didn't find out about my heritage until I was I was in my twenties. I partake in no Native American culture whatsoever besides passing historical/mythological interests. Also my looks take after my father: if there is any Native American blood in me, it's well hidden. I'm confident. That's one basis for discrimination I'm confident I've never experienced.

Therefore, I don't check the Native American box on forms.

Doesn't it seem like I've given it a lot of thought?

I've given it a lot of thought because I come from a poor rural background. I have a lot of student loans - identifying myself as Native American might have alleviated some of that. I never got to finish my doctorate - identifying myself as Native American might have changed that. I've had a rough time in the job market because of disability - identifying myself as Native American early on might have opened up more opportunities for me. I get to think a lot about what I missed out on.

I'm a pretty mellow person who just accepts my life and keeps trying to move forward with what I've got, but angry Teahadists tend to practice the "politics of resentment". So even if they CHOSE not to check the Native American form checkbox of their own free will, chances are they bear quite a bit of ill will towards those they SUSPECT (cue "conspiracy theory" theme music) did check the box and made out like bandits. Sometimes they might have occasion to witness some scammer who does seem to be getting away with something (sort of like the "examples of fraud" that fuel the anger at the supposed "Welfare Queens&quot . This resentment is broiling right now because *a lot of people have Native American blood* and *a lot of forms ask people to choose if they are Native American*. These repeated mini moral stands that people make every time they fill out a gosh-darned form is what's going to come back to haunt Elizabeth Warren.

Again, I'm not challenging whether whether Warren is or not. That doesn't matter at all. What I'm saying is this is a very explosive issue, and the fact people think they just have to verify whether Warren really is Native American or not just goes to show they don't understand where the ticking time bomb is hidden here.

[RiverLover]

268. People thought that would hurt her in the senate race too.

It didn't.

[daredtowork]

269. I'm glad if it didn't

I don't want to sound like the cloud of doom - I'd rather have Elizabeth Warren than Hillary. All I'm saying is that if there's going to be an issue that will be a thorn in her side, that's the one. Not the Republican one. And that it will all also probably surprise her staff because they will always assume it's "explained" when it's actually one of those visceral things that can never be dealt with. It's like an American core identity problem.

[RiverLover]

270. I know. And you could be right.

But to me, this thorn is easily removed. Or not seen that detrimental to most, though foxfiction & rush will try to make it a big deal.

For me, this was the first time we didn't see things similarly, dtw, from the posts of yours I've read anyways. Guess that's bound to happen now & then!!

[daredtowork]

271. Yes and

I feel almost like I sound like a "concern troll" myself bringing it up. >.< That's not how I mean it. What I mean to say is the left tends to be too educated and smart for it's own good some times and it misses stuff that can sneak up on them, and this is one. I don't want to rub in the actual issue as if I'm making it an issue. >.<

[Algernon Moncrieff]

254. Agreed

Good post

[October]

216. Sanctimonious much?

Warren is more of a progressive Democrat than most.

[LanternWaste]

217. This is the twin story to the Clinton Flight Log thread.

This is the twin story to the Clinton Flight Log thread. Innuendo, implication, pretense of absolute knowledge, faulty inferences. Everything except objectivity and analysis.

Between this and the Flight Log thread, I get to watch two clowns throw mud at the wall today. You the other OP are much more closely alike than either would care to admit aloud-- and neither one doing the party any good.

Maybe if you squint hard, you can see her political affiliation from your front porch.

[JonLP24]

220. One of many reasons why I favor Bernie Sanders more

but Elizabeth Warren actually has a further left voting record than Sanders so I'd be more comfortable than Hillary or any other of the top suspected mainstream candidates.

[Rex]

222. So Hillary Clinton was an intern for Gerald Ford when he was in Congress.

Well, isn't that convenient.

[cascadiance]

227. This means about as much as Michele Bachman CAMPAIGNING as a Democrat for Jimmy Carter!

Do you REALLY think her worshippers are worried about her leanings as a past Democrat? HUH?

And Republicans also didn't shoot down Ronald Reagan for once being a Democrat as well!

[LWolf]

237. Neither was I.

I was unaffiliated with any party until the 2000 selection, when I registered as a Democrat to protest that selection. And yes...I voted for Gore in 2000. I spent 22 years voting as "unaffiliated." Without an affiliation, I somehow: 1. was still well-informed 2. was still politically active 3. always voted; never missed an election 4. A left wing liberal.

I haven't found much more value in being a Democrat than not; it's not like anyone I vote for in a primary will be nominated, and that's the only real difference. It's not like the Democratic Party really gives a shit about my positions on issues.

I'm a registered Democrat. I'm also still a political Lone Wolf; my politics are ALL and ALWAYS about issues, not parties. The politicians I support get my support because of their records on issues, not because of their party affiliation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

242. I've always been a democrat but the hallmark of a liberal is open thinking.

The fact that she is capable of reevaluating her opinions makes her a liberal.

[unrepentant progress]

251. "I was a Democrat when being a Democrat wasn't cool." -- George Wallace

[vi5]

252. I'd much rather...

Someone who was a Republican in the late 80's/early 90's but is advocating traditionally policies now, than someone who was a Democrat back then but whos policies now are more in line with Republicans of the 80's and 90's if not outright written by them.

[winter is coming]

261. I don't care about who voted or campaigned for Republicans decades ago.

I care about whether or not they're going to act like Republicans in the future.

[DebJ]

262. Maybe that explains her zeal in working Democratic policies today. No one is more passionate

than the sinner who became a preacher.

[Ilsa]

267. I'm glad she's on our side.

She's been a democrat for twenty years. That's close to half of her adult life. Would you rather she changed back?

[Jim Beard]

272. You forgot McGovern

That was the real test of being a Democrat.