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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsKyle the Sniper Katrina story may not be imaginary. Remember FBI memo to shoot Occupy leaders?
US Intelligence Machine Instead Plotted with Bankers to Attack Protest MovementFBI Ignored Deadly Threat to Occupiers
by DAVE LINDORFF
CounterPunch, WEEKEND EDITION DECEMBER 28-30, 2012
New documents obtained from the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security by the Partnership for Civil Justice and released this past week show that the FBI and other intelligence and law enforcement agencies began a campaign of monitoring, spying and disrupting the Occupy Movement at least two months before the first occupation actions began in late September 2011.
As early as August, while acknowledging that the incipient Occupy Movement was peaceful in nature, federal, state and local officials from the FBI, the DHS and the many Fusion Centers and Joint Terrorism Task Force centers around the country were meeting with local financial institutions and their private security organizations to plot out a strategy for countering the Occupy Movements campaign.
Interestingly, one document obtained by PCJ from the Houston FBI office refers to what appears to have been a plan by some group, the name of which is blacked out in the released document, to determine who the leaders were of the Occupy Movement in Houston, and then to assassinate them with suppressed sniper rifles, meaning sniper rifles equipped with silencers.
The chilling document in question reads as follows:
One identified BLANK as of October planned to engage in sniper attacks against protesters in Houston, Texas if deemed necessary. An identified BLANK had received intelligence that indicated the protesters in New York and Seattle planned similar protests in Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin, Texas. BLANK planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest group and obtain photographs, then formulate a plan to kill the leadership by suppressed sniper rifles.
The wording does not sound like its some crank Tea Party faction theyre talking about especially the words deemed necessary and the reference to gathering intelligence against the leaders of the protest group. Fortunately, in any case, no such assassination campaign materialized in Houston or anywhere else during the wave of Occupy actions across the country, but at the same time, there were never any arrests of whatever organization or individuals that the FBI clearly knew to be planning such a terrorist action against the Occupy activists.
CONTINUED...
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/12/28/fbi-ignored-deadly-threat-to-occupiers/
What country is this again?
Seeing American Sniper is in the news, I didn't want this story to fall down the Memory Hole.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)We talked about it on DU, June 2013:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023119333
It's one thing to go along with something like that, it's another thing to think the FBI would ever do anything like that.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)The guy who says the Boston bombing was done by the CIA.
http://thiscantbehappening.net/node/1727
Another stellar source from you.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Oh, and who knows what went down in Boston? The FBI killed one witness in cold blood, shooting the man seven times.
DETAILS: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/26/two-lawmen-two-stories-of-a-boston-marathon-witness-killing/
So, the FBI killed a guy who was in their custody, handcuffed. That should bother you, zappaman.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Sadly, it is time to say, just 14 months into the current term of this new president, that yes, this president, and some of his subordinates, are also guilty of impeachable crimes--including many of the same ones committed by Bush and Cheney.
Let me state it simply: President Barack Obama, as well as Attorney General Eric Holder, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and Treasury Secretary Geithner, should be impeached for war crimes and high crimes against the Constitution.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Case-for-Impeachment-o-by-Dave-Lindorff-100401-690.html
He's a real credible source.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Case_for_Impeachment.html?id=A6u_SYgB1fsC
What books have you written, zappaman? More to the point, what posts on DU have you made calling for the impeachment of George W Bush, zappaman?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)past few years a few people on Liberal Forums have gone out of their way to attack people who most Democrats veiw as worth reading, mainly due to the fact that they were so right about so many things. And I'm happy to see that while for a while, they were successful in demonizing Liberal writers, the tide has turned and more and more people are no longer listening to them. The expansion of the Internet, Social Media, has diminished the effect of those would-be censors, thankfully.
Lindorff going way back, has been a threat to those who support forever war, Bush/Cheney neocons, and Wall St. Naturally he was smeared. But those tactics no longer work. We have so many more sources now, Social Media, which have overtaken the old 'blogs' where it was possible to attack those who were courageous enough to stand up to the neocon/neoliberal criminals and people are free to support those who are willing to question the status quo. They may not ALWASY be right, but relax, we are all adults here and can make up our own minds about these things.
The cyber world has changed since 2003. Feel free to read what you want to read, and the rest of us will use our intelligence to decide what is worth considering and what is not. The 'nannies' that infiltrated the old partisan blogs around 2004 are no longer effective.
It was once called a CT by those net nannies, that African Americans were shot on a bridge during Katrina by police. And then it turned out to be true. Just think about that for a moment. The CTs were right and though it took years, the perps were finally found and prosecuted.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)PeoViejo
(2,178 posts)and someone turned on his attacker. He wouldn't be the first Operator to go 'Off the Reservation' and suddenly have a tragic accident.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Take Howard Hunt. He demanded hush money for himself and the Watergate break-in crew, got paid, and then his wife's plane crashed.
The Encyclopedia of White Collar and Corporate Crime:
https://books.google.com/books?id=0Vh2AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA993&lpg=PA993&dq=dorothy+hunt+plane+crash+hush+money%27&source=bl&ots=t9Kgtgg_JG&sig=lTMqiX1l8oIVCglPmuxEQ6UdF6c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tPe-VM_iD8GgyQS4kYHgBg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dorothy%20hunt%20plane%20crash%20hush%20money'&f=false
PeoViejo
(2,178 posts)Even back then, it seemed suspicious.
I gather that someone was sending him a message,
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)People should all check out his story.
Response to Octafish (Original post)
Post removed
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)People lie on the internet. A lot.
dissentient
(861 posts)More than 3,200 people are officially still unaccounted for nearly five months after Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast, and the state medical examiner wants the search to resume for those missing from the most devastated neighborhoods.
A total of nearly 11,500 people were reported missing to the Find Family National Call Center, a center run by federal and state workers. The reports included people from throughout the Gulf Coast area, but most were from Louisiana.
All but about 3,200 had been located as of Wednesday, the agency said.
Katrina's Missing Still Number in the Thousands
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=1669519
Six months after Hurricane Katrina unleashed death and destruction on the Gulf Coast, more than 1,900 hundred people remain unaccounted for in Louisiana alone.
In Baton Rouge, the missing person's call center needed so much space it moved into an old sporting goods store, which it now calls the Family Find Center.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I'm curious.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)tragic event. People have short memories it seems. But I remember it clearly. How many were still missing months after the hurricane.
It's shameful how those who were in charge at the time, got away with hardly a slap on the wrist for failing to protect those American citizens.
Chertoff, Cheney, Condi who was busy buying shoes, Bush and Landrieu who seemed more concerned about being photographed with Bush than about challenging them for their criminal negligence.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Two killed. Four wounded. Five cops convicted for all manner of stuff, overturned on appeal. Nothing like justice.
http://www.propublica.org/nola/case/topic/case-six
AZ Progressive
(3,411 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)as the tar-paper shacks grow around the gated communities for the next hundred years.
Archae
(46,358 posts)Or as usual, just "JAQing off" yet again with a new conspiracy theory?
To use Ockham's Razor, it's far more credible that Kyle was bragging to his drinking buddies.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)You can't prove it, but you can't disprove it either.
Archae
(46,358 posts)That's why the onus is on the person doing the claims.
And the OP is notorious for posting these "prove me wrong" conspiracy theories about just about anything.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Archae
(46,358 posts)UFOs? Really? The onus is on us? Next you will be asking people to prove their identity.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)So, what's "conspiracy theory," Archae? Or do you sling that as a smear?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)The FBI received a tip that a person (whose name is redacted) was planning to shoot some occupy leaders. They investigated and determined the tip wasn't credible.
I just want to be clear that you're shitting on the FBI for doing their job and investigating threats to people in Occupy, which is pretty shitty of you.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Whether it's the Mafia or Blackwater, killing citizens of the United States without due process is tyranny.
Here's the memo (the parts We the Little People can see, anyway):
Notice how the redacted parts prevent the Reader from knowing exactly who, what, where, when, why, how and for which secret agent's benefit the killings were to be conducted. Is that what you think democracy is about, Recursion?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)You keep posting it, and then show you don't seem to have any idea what it says.
The FBI received a tip that someone was planning violence against Occupy. They investigated and found the tip wasn't credible. Your continual gaslighting on this, claiming that this was a government plot rather than a government investigation of a plot, is either blinkardly obtuse, or -- frankly -- dishonest.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)That's why I posted the memo, so other people can read what it said, instead of getting only your take on it.
And a second FBI document, referring to the first:
Why do you keep insisting that is says something other than what it does, which is the FBI was considering killing Occupy leaders with hired assassins, Recursion? Do you expect everyone to take your word? I don't. That's why I link to sources, so people can think for themselves. I don't know why I should have to explain it to you, but that's what democracy is all about.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And outside of your head, it just doesn't say what you have convinced yourself it says.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)An identified _____ as of October [2011] planned to engage in sniper attacks against protesters in Houston, Texas, if deemed necessary. An identified _____ had received intelligence that indicated the protesters in New York and Seattle planned similar protests in Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin, Texas. _____ planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups and obtain photographs, then formulate a plan to kill the leadership via suppressed sniper rifles.\
* * *
On 13 October 2011, writer sent via email an excerpt from the daily _____ regarding FBI Houston's _____ to all IAs, SSRAs and SSA _____. This _____ identified the exploitation of the Occupy Movement by _____ interested in developing a long-term plan to kill local Occupy leaders via sniper fire.
Those are excerpts from documents obtained by Dave Lindorff through a FOIA request to the FBI regarding the Occupy movement. This is how seriously someone took the Occupy movement given the economic conditions and events happening around the world in 2011.
Through my work with the National Lawyers Guild I represented members of Occupy Houston, and their supporters, who were arrested during their "occupation" of downtown Houston. In the course of that representation a colleague, Greg Gladden, uncovered documents regarding the infiltration of the Occupy Austin movement by officers with the Austin Police Department. The documents also spelled out the involvement of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies.
Never during the course of our representation of the Occupy Houston protesters did we hear anything about a plot to kill the leadership of the Occupy movement in Houston. If the information contained within these documents is true, it raises some very serious questions.
Just how scared of the Occupy movement was the government? Or, maybe the question should be just how scared were business leaders and their lackeys in the government? The Occupy protests were a mass movement that had the potential to catch fire. That they didn't is due to the government's crackdowns and, I would argue, on the lack of a cohesive message from the movement.
The more important question is, obviously, who was behind the alleged plot to assassinate Occupy leaders in Houston? Why did the government redact any identification information about whose plot it was? Is that information redacted because it would expose confidential sources, or is it redacted because the FBI was behind the alleged plot?
I must admit that I have a very hard time believing that the assassination plot was a government-hatched plan. The more effective tactics in shutting down the movement were either driving the protesters out of the parks or waiting them out. Sending in snipers to kill protesters seems like a massive overreaction.
Of course maybe the FBI had infiltrated right-wing groups opposed to the Occupy movement and were running an undercover operation to put the groups out of business. If that were the case, how much of this alleged plot was cooked up by group members and how much of the idea was planted in their heads by undercover agents?
[font color="red"]Whatever the answers to the questions may be, we know that something was up. We know that the Houston FBI knew about the plot and that they provided no warning to the Occupy protesters in Tranquility Park.[/font color]
We also know that the FBI characterized the Occupy movement as a terrorist organization - apparently because the participants dared to question the status quo and the government's role in the economic collapse. For those of y'all who are okay with our government's domestic surveillance programs under the belief that the programs are keeping us safe, just take a moment to think about how low the bar is for the government to label a group as being a terrorist organization.
CONTINUED...
http://kennedy-law.blogspot.com/2013/07/taking-aim-at-occupy-movement.html
Don't know about you, but I think the FBI has no business monitoring, disrupting or destroying US citizens who are peaceful critics of the government.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)THIS WAS NOT A PLOT BY THE FBI, THIS WAS A PLOT THE FBI WAS INVESTIGATING. YOU JUST POSTED THAT.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)The quote is from Paul Kennedy, Houston lawyer, sourced above.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)I have a hard time believing that story, he's on top of the Superdome, which had more then 20,000 people sheltering in it and no one heard the sound of rifle fire from above?
We'll suppose he used a suppressed rifle, but no one noticed all those people with rifle shots in the head or torso? None of the relatives questioned why the alleged victims were dead?
Sorry, not buying the story, I'm more inclined to think they were fucking with the reporter to see if they would publish something so unlikely without doing some basic fact checking.
And no, I have neither read the book or seen the movie. The story triggers my BS meter and sounds like conspiracy theory nonsense.
dissentient
(861 posts)one story said they were on "rooftops", which could mean any kind of tall buildings or structures in New Orleans...
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)so if that is wrong, what else did the reporter get wrong?
30+ bodies, all with rifle shots to the head or upper chest and no one notices? The relatives don't notice, the morticians don't notice, the people nearby when these alleged people were all killed and no one notices?
Bullshit, a giant, steaming pile of bullshit.
dissentient
(861 posts)While hundreds drowned in Hurricane Katrinas filthy floodwaters, at least 21 people died more mysteriously. From unexplained gunshot wounds to stabbings and fatal blows to the head, these unidentified victims are now the main characters in a real-life version of CSI.
Coroners are using science, creative thinking and even a Crock-Pot to try to answer the question many are asking: Who or what killed these 21 people?
With evidence thats washed away, witnesses who fled the state and an overworked police department, at least one official says the mysteries may never be solved.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/10440492/ns/us_news-katrina_the_long_road_back/t/mysterious-deaths-during-katrina-puzzle-police/
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Even your link doesn't support your wild theory that Kyle killed some 30 people at or near the Superdome.
So we go from 30 people shot with a rifle to 21 people who died from a variety of different methods. Right
dissentient
(861 posts)accounted for. That is not true.
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/08/29/hurricane-katrina-9-years-later/20954418/
If there are still so many missing, maybe some of them have unexplained gun shot wounds.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)in facts or common sense and will rationalize away anything that doesn't fit into their stupid conspiracy theory.
Worst flood in New Orleans history, those 705 people almost certainly got washed into the Gulf of Mexico and their bodies eaten by various fish, birds and other scavengers. Makes a lot more sense then the idiotic theories you keep trying push.
When do aliens and the Illuminati enter the picture or are aliens and the Illuminati one and the same?
dissentient
(861 posts)I gave you many links from mainstream sources talking about mysterious deaths, with some bodies having unexplained gun shot wounds. I showed a link which confirms many hundreds are still missing from Katrina.
Sure, a lot of those 705 people got washed out to the gulf. So? And some of them perhaps had unexplained gun shot wounds as well. Both of these can be true at the same time. You don't know for sure, and neither do I.
I guess you are right - the AP, CBS news, and NBC are all in a giant conspiracy that raises these questions about all these bodies, some with unexplained gun shot wounds. Gimme a break.
If you don't want to believe its possible, fine. Despite evidence to the contrary. I'm simply showing there are questions to be raised, and that it is not easily dismissed.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Please no wild coincidence theories. Stop trying to put your limits on the discussion.
erpowers
(9,350 posts)How did he get on top of the Super Dome? How was he able to shoot people from that position? How is it that no evidence of his actions were left behind? How is it that there were no reports of shots supposedly being fired from on top of the Super Dome? Everyone should remember that there were people and police at the Super Dome after Hurricane Katrina passed through New Orleans? How is it that there were no photos of Chris Kyle getting onto, or getting off of the Super Dome? How is it that none of the news helicopter flying over New Orleans after the hurricane saw anyone on the roof of the Super Dome? How is it that there were no Coast Guard reports of someone, or individuals being spotted on the roof of the Super Dome?
I think people should also remember the Super Dome sustained a large amount of damage during Hurricane Katrina. Would Chris Kyle, or anyone else have been able to use the roof of the Super Dome as a staging ground for sniper shooting?
It seems that Kyle wanted to tell a story and just picked the most famous building in the city to use as his staging ground. It seems that even in the best of conditions the Super Dome would be seen as a bad place to conduct a sniper attack. It would have hard, time consuming, and dangerous to get onto the building. It seems the easiest way to get on top of the building would have been to use a helicopter and have someone either jump from the helicopter, or rope down. Why go through all that trouble when there were much more easily accessible buildings and monuments in the city. However, snipping from the roof of the Super Dome does seem to make a better more exciting story.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)I think the whole story is nonsense, too many people would have to be involved and be either complicit or bought off and that doesn't include all the troublesome details you, I and others have brought up.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)"The guy must be deluded. PTSD. Delusions..."
Then, I remembered the FBI memo.
Why Did FBI Monitor Occupy Houston, and Then Hide Sniper Plot Against Protest Leaders?
Transparency activist Ryan Shapiro discusses a growing controversy over the FBIs monitoring of Occupy Houston in 2011. The case centers on what the FBI knew about an alleged assassination plot against Occupy leaders and why it failed to share this information. The plot was first revealed in a heavily redacted document obtained by the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund through a FOIA request. The document mentioned an individual "planned to engage in sniper attacks against protesters in Houston, Texas." When Shapiro asked for more details, the FBI said it found 17 pages of pertinent records and gave him five of them, with some information redacted. Shapiro sued, alleging the FBI had improperly invoked FOIA exemptions. Last week, Federal District Judge Rosemary Collyer agreed with Shapiro, ruling the FBI had to explain why it withheld the records.
SNIP...
Ryan Shapiro, explain what the judge ruled and what "talismanic" means.
RYAN SHAPIRO: Absolutely. First I should say that this is a really weird and crazy story, and Im still trying to make sense of it, and Im working with my attorney, Jeffrey Light, and the journalist Jason Leopold to that end. But the judges ruling is terrific on this point.
So, basically, the FBI said, "We found 17 pages, but were only going to give you five of them, because national security." And the FBI alleged, and David Hardy, the head of the FOIA division of the FBI, asserted in his declaration to the court that the records were exempt from FOIA because they were part of the FBIs investigation, a national security-oriented terrorism investigation of Occupy Houston protesters for potential terrorist activity, including advocating the overthrow of government. And David Hardy provided no evidence to back up his claim. He just said the words, because so oftenas is sadly the case, so often judges are tremendously deferential to the FBI and to other intelligence and security agencies in these sorts of FOIA questions, because the FBI tells the judges, "Youre not qualified to decide whether or not this constitutes a threat to national security to release, so were going to tell you that it does, and you should defer to us."
In this case, Judge Collyer made a wonderful ruling and said, "No, you cant just say the words. The words arent just talismansterrorism, national security. You have to back them up. You cant just wave them around like magic and expect usexpect the court to give you what you want." And so now the judge has required the FBI to provide substantiation for their seemingly preposterous claims that Occupy Houston were terrorists advocating the overthrow of government. And the FBI has until April 9 to provide this support. They can do it openly or they can do an ex parte in camera declaration, so a secret submission to the judge where she can review the documents herself.
AMY GOODMAN: And what about this assassination attempt against Occupy activists?
RYAN SHAPIRO: Yes, absolutely. As I said, Im still trying to figure out exactly whats going on there, but what I want to know is, first of allso my requests here are in part inspired because I want to know what the role of the FBI is in coordinating the response to the Occupy movement, why the FBI considered the Occupy movement a terrorist threat, and I also want to know why the FBI didnt inform the protesters of this tremendous threat against them. As Kade Crockford at the ACLU recently said, if the targets of this plot had been Wall Street bankers, I think we can all safely assume that the FBI would have picked up the phone.
AMY GOODMAN: And called them.
RYAN SHAPIRO: And called them, yes, absolutely. Soand, finally, I want to knowand because this is how it appears in the documentsof course, theyre heavily redacted, so were not surebut why was the FBI appearing to pay far more attention to peaceful protesters in their investigation than to the actual terrorists who were plotting to kill those protesters?
CONTINUED...
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/3/25/why_did_fbi_monitor_occupy_houston
Some things I wish I never knew, but that's not how democracy works.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Here are some dots that would be connected if this were a functioning democracy:
New NSA docs contradict 9/11 claims
I dont think the Bush administration would want to see these released," an expert tells Salon
By Jordan Michael Smith
Salon.com
Tuesday, Jun 19, 2012 04:24 PM EDT
Over 120 CIA documents concerning 9/11, Osama bin Laden and counterterrorism were published today for the first time, having been newly declassified and released to the National Security Archive. The documents were released after the NSA pored through the footnotes of the 9/11 Commission and sent Freedom of Information Act requests.
The material contains much new information about the hunt before and after 9/11 for bin Laden, the development of the drone campaign in AfPak, and al-Qaidas relationship with Americas ally, Pakistan. Perhaps most damning are the documents showing that the CIA had bin Laden in its cross hairs a full year before 9/11 but didnt get the funding from the Bush administration White House to take him out or even continue monitoring him. The CIA materials directly contradict the many claims of Bush officials that it was aggressively pursuing al-Qaida prior to 9/11, and that nobody could have predicted the attacks. I dont think the Bush administration would want to see these released, because they paint a picture of the CIA knowing something would happen before 9/11, but they didnt get the institutional support they needed, says Barbara Elias-Sanborn, the NSA fellow who edited the materials.
SNIP...
Former National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice has taken credit for the drone program that the Bush administration ignored. Things like working to get an armed Predator that actually turned out to be extraordinarily important, working to get a strategy that would allow us to get better cooperation from Pakistan and from the Central Asians, she said in 2006. We were not left a comprehensive strategy to fight al-Qaida. Rice claimed that the Bush administration continued the Clinton administrations counterterrorism policies, a claim the documents disprove. If the administration wanted to get it done, Im sure they could have gotten it done, says Elias-Sanborn.
Many of the documents publicize for the first time what was first made clear in the 9/11 Commission: The White House received a truly remarkable amount of warnings that al-Qaida was trying to attack the United States. From June to September 2001, a full seven CIA Senior Intelligence Briefs detailed that attacks were imminent, an incredible amount of information from one intelligence agency. One from June called Bin-Ladin and Associates Making Near-Term Threats writes that [redacted] expects Usama Bin Laden to launch multiple attacks over the coming days. The famous August brief called Bin Ladin Determined to Strike the US is included. Al-Qaida members, including some US citizens, have resided in or travelled to the US for years, and the group apparently maintains a support structure here, it says. During the entire month of August, President Bush was on vacation at his ranch in Texas which tied with one of Richard Nixons as the longest vacation ever taken by a president. CIA Director George Tenet has said he didnt speak to Bush once that month, describing the president as being on leave. Bush did not hold a Principals meeting on terrorism until September 4, 2001, having downgraded the meetings to a deputies meeting, which then-counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke has repeatedly said slowed down anti-Bin Laden efforts enormously, by months.
CONTINUED w LINKS...
http://www.salon.com/2012/06/19/new_nsa_docs_reveal_911_truths/
Then again, having a post with nothing but tinfoil hat smilies is considered deep for some, a very clever smear.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Evil rules the highest eshalons of power.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It's the result of an FBI investigation which led them to conclude that there weren't snipers planning to attack Occupy, just some rednecks letting their mouths run.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)So why should anyone care about your special "BS Meter"? Is that scientific? Sounds like your own personal conspiracy theory. The prejudices against criminal conspiracies being true us astounding. BS should really stand for your "Belief System" which is obviously predetermined regardless of information or facts. I've seen a lot of crazy things in my life firsthand. You would probably believe none of them and then make it your business to tell everyone you can they arent true. Glad this isn't HuffPost.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Dave Lindorff is an American investigative reporter, a columnist for CounterPunch, and a contributor to Businessweek, The Nation, Extra! and Salon.com. His work was highlighted by Project Censored 2004,[1] 2011[2] and 2012.[3] Born in 1949, Lindorff lives just outside Philadelphia.
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Lindorff
Lindorff is a great writer, too. When did you get your work mentioned anywhere, zappaman?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Say what you will about the looming catastrophe facing the world as the pace of global heating and polar melting accelerates. There is a silver lining.
Look at a map of the US.
The area that will by completely inundated by the rising oceanand not in a century but in the lifetime of my two catsare the American southeast, including the most populated area of Texas, almost all of Florida, most of Louisiana, and half of Alabama and Mississippi, as well as goodly portions of eastern Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina. While the northeast will also see some coastal flooding, its geography is such that that aside from a few projecting sandbars like Long Island and Cape Cod, the land rises fairly quickly to well above sea level. Sure, Boston, New York and Philadelphia will be threatened, but these are geographically confined areas that could lend themselves to protection by Dutch-style dikes. The West Coast too tends to rise rapidly to well above sea level in most places. Only down in Southern California towards the San Diego area is the ground closer to sea level.
So what we see is that huge swaths of conservative America are set to face a biblical deluge in a few more presidential cycles.
http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2007/122407Lindorff.shtml
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)Good lord, all the FBI probably did
was show the Occupy "leaders" some soap
and and step on their iPads...
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Until the documents are made public, we won't know. A Federal judge did order the FBI to turn over even more documents for review, which brings to mind just much more there is to this FBI sniper story than what we know.
In any event, this impacts democracy in ways that may surprise you, greytdemocrat. Don't know about you, but secret government talking about assassinating members of the loyal opposition bothers me.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)uncomfortable. They prefer the inherent comfort of a police state. Like China or Iran.
Response to Octafish (Original post)
blkmusclmachine This message was self-deleted by its author.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Tommy_Carcetti
(43,219 posts)The guy claimed that he got into a random fistfight with Jesse Ventura and that he shot two would-be robbers and had law enforcement call the Pentagon who told them not to arrest him.
There was nothing to suggest either story happened. He's full of shit. And he's full of shit on New Orleans too. He's a pathological liar, case closed.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)gopiscrap
(23,765 posts)law enforcement fuckers..that includes prosecutors and parole and probation offices too. They all fucking lie and they would kill you in a heart beat if they disagree with you or your lifestyle.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)This was never about terrorism. It's about law enforcement and intelligence agencies being cronies and stooges for lawless banks. How are these guys able to look at themselves in the mirror. They have become the real terrorists themselves. Makes me want to puke.
JEB
(4,748 posts)The truth in a nut shell.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)By Rick Perlstein
Rolling Stone, May 15, 2012
This past October, at an Occupy encampment in Cleveland, Ohio, "suspicious males with walkie-talkies around their necks" and "scarves or towels around their heads" were heard grumbling at the protesters' unwillingness to act violently. At meetings a few months later, one of them, a 26-year-old with a black Mohawk known as "Cyco," explained to his anarchist colleagues how "you can make plastic explosives with bleach," and the group of five men fantasized about what they might blow up. Cyco suggested a small bridge. One of the others thought theyd have a better chance of not hurting people if they blew up a cargo ship. A third, however, argued for a big bridge "Gotta slow the traffic that's going to make them money" and won. He then led them to a connection who sold them C-4 explosives for $450. Then, the night before the May Day Occupy protests, they allegedly put the plan into motion and just as the would-be terrorists fiddled with the detonator they hoped would blow to smithereens a scenic bridge in Ohios Cuyahoga Valley National Park traversed by 13,610 vehicles every day, the FBI swooped in to arrest them.
Right in the nick of time, just like in the movies. The authorities couldnt have more effectively made the Occupy movement look like a danger to the republic if they had scripted it. Maybe that's because, more or less, they did.
The guy who convinced the plotters to blow up a big bridge, led them to the arms merchant, and drove the team to the bomb site was an FBI informant. The merchant was an FBI agent. The bomb, of course, was a dud. And the arrest was part of a pattern of entrapment by federal law enforcement since September 11, 2001, not of terrorist suspects, but of young men federal agents have had to talk into embracing violence in the first place. One of the Cleveland arrestees, Connor Stevens, complained to his sister of feeling "very pressured" by the guy who turned out to be an informant and was recorded in 2011 rejecting property destruction: "We're in it for the long haul and those kind of tactics just don't cut it," he said. "And it's actually harder to be non-violent than it is to do stuff like that." Though when Cleveland's NEWS Channel 5 broadcast that footage, they headlined it "Accused Bomb Plot Suspect Caught on Camera Talking Violence."
In all these law enforcement schemes the alleged terrorists masterminds end up seeming, when the full story comes out, unable to terrorize their way out of a paper bag without law enforcement tutelage. ("They teach you how to make all this stuff out of simple household items," one of the kids says on a recording quoted in the FBI affidavit about a book he has just discovered, The Anarchist Cookbook. Someone asks him how much it says explosives cost. "I'm not sure," he responds, "I just downloaded it last night." Its a perfect example of how post-9/11 fear made law enforcement tactics seem acceptable that were previously beyond the pale. Previously, however, the targets have been Muslims; now theyre white kids from Ohio. And maybe you could argue that this is acceptable, if the feds were actually acting out of a good-faith assessment of what threats are imminent and which are not. But that's not what they're doing at all. Instead, they are arrogating to themselves a downright Orwellian power the power to deploy the might of the State to shape a fundamental narrative about which ideas Americans must be most scared of, and which ones they should not fear much at all, independent of the relative objective dangerousness of the people who hold those ideas.
SNIP...
Not everything is the same since the 1970s, of course. The media has changed: Newsday editorialized in 1972 of the Camden case, "We have come to expect such tactics from totalitarian nations that have no respect for individual rights permitting dissent. They have no place in American and those who advocate them have no place in this government." You dont see that sort of language much any more. Indeed, Newsday appears not to have covered the arrest and trial of Hemant Lakhami at all. "Such tactics" are just not a very big deal any more.
CONTINUED w/links...
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/how-fbi-entrapment-is-inventing-terrorists-and-letting-bad-guys-off-the-hook-20120515
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I don't know why this zombie keeps coming back here.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)That's what they want you to think!
Read between the lines!!!!
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)The use of the phrase if deemed necessary, sounds like it was some kind of official organization that was doing the planning, commented Paul Kennedy, an attorney from the National Lawyers Guild.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)It MUST have been an official agency.
Are you kidding me?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...engaged in peaceful protest against the taxpayer backed casino that is Wall Street on the Potomac.
If that's what it takes to become an enemy of the state, I can see where you're coming from Nuclear Dem.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)[font size="6"][font color="green"](REDACTED) planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups and obtain photographs, then formulate a plan to kill the leadership via surpressed sniper rifles.[/font color][/font size]
SOURCE (scroll down if you don't see it at first): http://www.scribd.com/doc/151216041/FBI-Docs-Referencing-Sniper-Murder-Plot
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Do you even know what "gathering intelligence" entails? Do you think it's completely out of the realm of possibility for RW militias or domestic terrorists to get their hands on sniper rifles and suppressors in a place like Texas?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)That was in 1960. We found out about in 1976. And there are still ex-CIA people who say it was Bobby's idea.
That's another important reason why redactions in the current case of FBI talking with agents and agencies unknown in regards to assassinating loyal America citizens is so troublesome.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Can't prove it, but can't disprove it either. Terrific.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Have you notice how much secrecy there is these days? It's really amazing.
Seeing how this is a democracy and such a large share of my taxes go to pay for war without end all this associated secrecy, I'd think you, IIRC, a veteran, would understand what an awful lot of money goes to wage wars around the globe.
Something else: A lot of what we do know, doesn't get much coverage in the press. That's not all that amazing, seeing how few companies control most of what is broadcast and printed.
JEB
(4,748 posts)An image from Boston, a few moments before the bombs exploded, seems to show people wearing paraphernalia associated with Craft International:
EXCERPT...
Lindorff's report indicated that Houston police claim they were never warned by the local FBI office of the assassination plot. Lindorff notes that law enforcement agencies in Texas have received sniper training from Craft International, the shadowy mercenary-for-hire organization that is based in Dallas, Texas. Craft was founded by the celebrated Army sniper Chris Kyle, who was shot and killed at a firing range last year by a fellow Army veteran. Craft has a contract funded by the Department of Homeland Security to provide training to law enforcement throughout the country. Last year, a state border patrol agent in Texas trained by Craft fired from a helicopter at a moving truck carrying nine illegal immigrants, causing the vehicle to crash, killing two and wounding a third.
Craft International employees were spotted working at the Boston Marathon during the bombing the government claims killed three persons and wounded more than one hundred others. Lindorff was unable to obtain a comment from the company on their work training Texas law enforcement agencies.
One of the Occupy Movement leaders, Remington Alessi, who may have been one of the targets of the assassination plot, told Lindorff that he was not surprised to learn of the plot. "I wish I could say Im surprised that this was seriously discussed, but remember, this is the same federal government that murdered (Black Panther Party leader) Fred Hampton," Alessi said. "We have a government that traditionally murders people who are threats. I guess being a target is sort of an honor." Paul Kennedy, a Houston area attorney who represented several of the Occupy Movement protesters arrested during the protests, had not heard of the plot. If it had been some right-wing group plotting such an action, something would have been done," Kennedy said. "But if it is something law enforcement was planning, then nothing would have been done. It might seem hard to believe that a law enforcement agency would do such a thing, but I wouldnt put it past them."
CONTINUED...
http://advanceindiana.blogspot.com/2013/06/fbi-uncovered-plot-to-assassinate.html?m=1
zappaman
(20,606 posts)You really need to get out more.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)That's black propaganda, not discussion.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Do you think there is something fishy about the Boston bombing like your source does?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)What did I post that was not true?
And where did I write or post anything indicating what you said?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)You like Alex Jones too?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)It's like a tradition with some people.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2079852
zappaman
(20,606 posts)How is that a smear?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Goes without saying, "zappaman."
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Which is why I don't stand with him.
Why you do, I can't say.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF SUGGESTING THE BOSTON MARATHON BOMBING WAS A FALSE FLAG ATTACK!!!
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Funny how you find the time.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Calling you out on it is not a waste of time.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Understand now?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)And I understand you don't seem able to comprehend the memo you posted.
So yes, I understand.
Anything else?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)So why bring him up, besides to smear me?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)and also believes the Boston bombings was a false flag operation.
So that's who you stand with!
Why is that a smear?
Why would being associated with Alex Jones be a smear?
Octafish
(55,745 posts)What a coincidence.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)That's not a smear, that's a fact.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)What's that called when a person does that repeatedly?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)saying the Boston bombings were a false flag operation?
OK.
Duly noted.
FSogol
(45,555 posts)nolabear
(41,995 posts)It is in the middle of a WHOLE lot of nothing. Highways, feeder surface streets and parking lots. There is nothing, nothing, NOTHING to loot and no reason to put anyone up on that damaged roof in 100 degree heat.
He's full of it.
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)View From A Helicopter
Texasgal
(17,048 posts)believe ONE bit of this story. I just can't. Give me something more. My mind is not shut. I just do not believe this story.I am sorry.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)something, something.
Sid
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Bartcop coined the term "Bush Family Evil Empire" to denote the 60-year pre-eminence of one family in the formation of the political philosophy in the United States, that of the War Party. And, yes, personally, I have tried to chronicle their influence on the ascension of the national security state. At least three generations have held high national office, while also making big money off war and looting the public Treasury. The last president of the United States, a man who wasn't elected fair and square by any stretch of the imagination, actually said: "Money trumps peace" at a press conference. For some reason, not a single "journalist" had the guts to ask him what he meant by that.
So. Show me where I'm wrong, and I'll apologize and correct the post. In all the years I've asked, you have yet to do so, SidDithers of DU.
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)tammywammy
(26,582 posts)It isn't a "FBI memo to shoot Occupy leader" as stated in the thread title. The FBI wasn't planning on using snipers to take out Occupy leaders.
I'm not sure how that memo leads credibility to Kyle's wild story of shooting people from the Superdome during Katrina.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Do you have the verbiage of this memo? I have never heard of it.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)AzDar
(14,023 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)Over the years, our approach to investigative problems in the intelligence field has given rise to a number of new programs, some of which have been most revolutionary, and it can be presumed that with a continued aggressive approach to these programs, new and productive ideas will be forthcoming. These ideas will not be increased in number or improved upon from the standpoint of accomplishments merely through the institution of a program such as COINTELPRO which is given another name and in fact, only encompasses everything that has been done in the past or will be done in the future.
FBI 1964 COINTELPRO Memo
SOURCE: http://peopleslawoffice.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Hampton.Cointelpro-Booklet.pdf
Background on FBI and the assassination of Fred Hampton:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/g-flint-taylor/the-fbi-cointelpro-progra_b_4375527.html
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)I would like to see it.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)btrflykng9
(287 posts)posting what they consider to be worthy of a read. No one ever stated that you had to agree with the original post.
If the exchange of information and ideas isn't why you are here, then why are you here?
Additionally, accepting what is printed and offered in the media without reading between the lines presents one huge problem - they've got too much to lose by printing the truth (as Bob Dylan so aptly stated in Don't Look Back). Reading between the lines seems to have become akin to "conspiracy theorizing"; however, one truth is that every thing doesn't always add up as you think it should (especially when viewed from the outside and without all of the facts and information at-hand).
There are so many crazy unbelievable things that happen every day, I don't see any reason why this should be so hard to accept as a possibility.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)The free and open exchange of ideas is the foundation of Democracy.
It's why we find the only business mentioned by name in the Constitution is in the First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
- See more at: http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1.html#sthash.u2yTacmu.dpuf
The words of those who oppose that are exhibited up and down this thread. They consistently turn out when the issue has to do with the secret state, from spying and surveillance to assassination and wars without end. They certainly don't add much to the conversation.
For instance:
Behind the Curtain: Booz Allen Hamilton and its Owner, The Carlyle Group
Written by Bob Adelmann
The New American; June 13, 2013
According to writers Thomas Heath and Marjorie Censer at the Washington Post, The Carlyle Group and its errant child, Booz Allen Hamilton (BAH), have a public relations problem, thanks to NSA leaker and former BAH employee Edward Snowden. By the time top management at BAH learned that one of their top level agents had gone rogue, and terminated his employment, it was too late.
For years Carlyle had, according to the Post, nurtured a reputation as a financially sophisticated asset manager that buys and sells everything from railroads to oil refineries; but now the light from the Snowden revelations has revealed nothing more than two companies, parent and child, bound by the thread of turning government secrets into profits.
And have they ever. When The Carlyle Group bought BAH back in 2008, it was totally dependent upon government contracts in the fields of information technology (IT) and systems engineering for its bread and butter. But there wasn't much butter: After two years the companys gross revenues were $5.1 billion but net profits were a minuscule $25 million, close to a rounding error on the companys financial statement. In 2012, however, BAH grossed $5.8 billion and showed earnings of $219 million, nearly a nine-fold increase in net revenues and a nice gain in value for Carlyle.
Unwittingly, the Post authors exposed the real reason for the jump in profitability: close ties and interconnected relationships between top people at Carlyle and BAH, and the agencies with which they are working. The authors quoted George Price, an equity analyst at BB&T Capital: "[Booz Allen has] got a great brand, they've focused over time on hiring top people, including bringing on people who have a lot of senior government experience." (Emphasis added.)
For instance, James Clapper had a stint at BAH before becoming the current Director of National Intelligence; George Little consulted with BAH before taking a position at the Central Intelligence Agency; John McConnell, now vice chairman at BAH, was director of the National Security Agency (NSA) in the 90s before moving up to director of national intelligence in 2007; Todd Park began his career with BAH and now serves as the country's chief technology officer; James Woolsey, currently a senior vice president at BAH, served in the past as director of the Central Intelligence Agency; and so on.
BAH has had more than a little problem with self-dealing and conflicts of interest over the years. For instance in 2006 the European Commission asked the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and Privacy International (PI) to investigate BAHs involvement with President George Bushs SWIFT surveillance program, which was viewed by that administration as just another tool in its so-called War on Terror. The only problem is that it was illegal, as it violated U.S., Belgian, and European privacy laws. BAH was right in the middle of it. According to the ACLU/PI report,
Though Booz Allens role is to verify that the access to the SWIFT data is not abused, its relationship with the U.S. Government calls its objectivity significantly into question. (Emphasis added.)
Among Booz Allens senior consulting staff are several former members of the intelligence community, including a former Director of the CIA and a former director of the NSA.
As noted by Barry Steinhardt, an ACLU director, Its bad enough that the [Bush] administration is trying to hold out a private company as a substitute for genuine checks and balances on its surveillance activities. But of all companies to perform audits on a secret surveillance program, it would be difficult to find one less objective and more intertwined with the U.S. government security establishment. (Emphasis added.)
CONTINUED w Links n Privatized INTEL...
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/15696-behind-the-curtain-booz-allen-hamilton-and-its-owner-the-carlyle-group
Thank DARPA and Al Gore for the Internet.