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PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Don't forget us women.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)As a woman, I stand with all women who fight against religious bigotry on women and infringement on our rights.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)get a bit lost in the mix.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Pope Francis is throwing nuns under the bus for sharing his own beliefs
"I spoke this week with Sister Simone Campbell, the executive director of Network (a Catholic social justice lobby) and the driving force behind the Nuns on the Bus tour. Sister Campbell's group was singled out as one of the trouble-makers in the Vatican's 2012 assessment, mostly because it came out in support of the Affordable Care Act, which the US Catholic bishops opposed. "The Catholic sisters in the United States keep getting caught in the middle of the Vatican's infighting over political resistance to reforms," she told me. "Calming the concerns of conservatives is still a priority for the church."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/08/pope-francis-nuns-catholic-crackdown
It's not nearly as simple as you wish it to be, not in reality.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)All sexual identifications are a part of nature, and thus Pagan religions embrace them all.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Nice post.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)K&R
Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)SissyK is an
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)
Skittles
(153,160 posts)YES INDEED
Prism
(5,815 posts)The privileged sentiments about religion are coming from the same people who sided with the administration against the LGBT community's push for equality. In the end, the good guys won. We'll win this one too.
It's simply a function of comfortable people who hold their political opinions as a sort of hobby. Something to discuss during cocktail hour. None of this shit affects them much, and it shows in their privilege and dismissal of the concerns of the oppressed.
Anyone who says religion shouldn't be mocked or criticized when it has done such damage to LGBT, minorities, and women is coming from an incredibly privileged and vacuous place.
This has been going on for years. It's just kind of entertaining at this point. The total lack of self-awareness as they attempt (poorly) to talk down at people.
Meh!
marym625
(17,997 posts)I wish it were laughable at this point. But the harm religion does to families and to LGBT youth is still incredible. The very public suicide note from Leelah is helping to bring more awareness to this tragic fact. But there are countless others who die without notice and who suffer in stoic silence.
Until we can end that part of this horror from nearly all religious sects, I can't find the humor.
I am not trying to belittle or dismiss what you said. I completely agree with every other thing you stated.
Prism
(5,815 posts)If you don't laugh, you'll either cry or get very angry. If I ever got very angry on this website, I'd be banned fifteen seconds later =)
marym625
(17,997 posts)The one time I let loose with emotion was the only hide I ever had. I actually deserved the hide. What I said was stupid but obviously emotionally charged.
A couple people on the jury recognized that and voted to leave it. One even went to the post and asked why my reply was the only one alerted. There were quite a few replies that were just as bad, if not worse.
I believe that person did that, not just because I was obviously singled out, but two of the votes to hide stated reasons that had zero to do with the post. One even said, "a new enthusiastic poster."
Sigh.
I get what you mean. I guess I just can't get to the humor part yet. Dark or otherwise. But I understand.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)much appreciated.
Skittles
(153,160 posts)YES INDEED
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)
wavesofeuphoria
(525 posts)and have similar feelings ... I will keep pointing out the inhumanity in hopes that at some point they might recognize their privilege and act accordingly.
Wella
(1,827 posts)That's certainly the implication of your post. Is the Democratic party now being redefined as the party of atheism?
Prism
(5,815 posts)If someone's God encourages homophobia, I'll certainly stand against the deity.
If someone's God encourages them to be kind, compassionate people, then He/She and I will get on just fine.
BTW, a lot of people critical of religion are not necessarily atheists. I am not one.
Wella
(1,827 posts)But since that's what you're saying, let's talk about it. "Kind, compassionate people" become doormats without principles. Religion is about principles, not necessarily about interpersonal attitudes. So suppose someone is not kind or compassionate by nature. What principles would be acceptable to you in the absence of a warm attitude?
Prism
(5,815 posts)You can be a kind, compassionate person and still have the principles of seeing people treated well. Or, you can be a sour person, and still believe in right and wrong when it comes to justice and treating people fairly.
And when it comes to the very religious, I don't have much experience meeting doormats. In fact, it's usually far too much in the other direction.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Wella
(1,827 posts)Learning the difference between feeling and principle would be a good first step.
marym625
(17,997 posts)I think the problem is with the intentional misinterpretation of it.
Wella
(1,827 posts)Do you know the difference between personality types and principles?
There is a conservative Republican in my water aerobics class. She is the nicest person you'd ever want to meet. Never sour, never a frown. Just plain nice. She also believes that rape victims should never be allowed to get an abortion because it would kill a baby.
Clearly her principles are vastly different from my own. But she believes she is just and treating people fairly, including the "unborn" people. If she ever gets a chance, she will take her niceness to the polls and vote that a fetus is a human life so that all rape victims will have to give birth to their rapists' children.
I'll take sour any day.
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)that discriminates, then you are the problem and your filthy gutter religion should be wiped out, defined as insanity or at least as no more deserving of respect as Nazism or pedophilia.
I care not what you call your belief system, Catholicism, Islam, or anything else; if you adhere to and support it and it in any way discriminates, calls for discrimination or attempts to effect the laws of society then as far as I'm concerned you (again, not Wella, but the adherent, a rhetorical 'you') really are nothing more than organs that would be of more use in an actual human being.
Wella
(1,827 posts)I guess I know where you stand. 
The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)Against ANY belief system that denies any rights to GLBT individuals, no matter what it's called, how much other good it has ostensibly done or how many people adhere to it. No exceptions, no "but"s.
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)Treat others the same way as you want to be treated by others.
Or do you feel like a doormat having to follow the principle of treating LGBT people the same way as you want them to treat you? Or does your god give you an exemption for "certain kind" of people?
KMOD
(7,906 posts)I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I believe it's possible for someone to believe in God and stand with LGBT, and I'm pretty sure there are many here that do.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)
Wella
(1,827 posts)Thanks for cheering me up. 
sheshe2
(83,751 posts)God believes in inequality?
I am not a faith based person, thought I was raised as one. God preaches love for all. No exceptions.
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)who are they? name them please.
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)Unless you have your own God with it's own rules, it's pretty clear that there is no place in heaven/after-life for those that do not accept its savior.
Which at the very least means me. Soooo I am not that impressed by the God is love argument.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)But others are entitled to their different Gods, I'm told.
Wella
(1,827 posts)So if you are not a faith based person, how can you be so sure that God "preaches" love for all? (This is not snark, by the way. I am truly interested in how someone who does not have a belief in God goes about defining God.)
sheshe2
(83,751 posts)Age one to about 24. Attended classes went to Episcopal camps, sang in the choir. Loved it. We had many discussions about faith and who we were and who we might become. They failed to answer a question of mine, why do babies unbaptized go to limbo and not heaven. An innocent child stays in limbo and never goes to heaven. Not an answer I could wrap my head around.
A man wrote the bible, it can be used and interpreted in many ways. I prefer the human nature of us all to give it life. I stood over my nieces bed when she had just turned two and almost died. I did a thing in my head and prayed to give my life for hers if there was no other way.
I moved away, yet I still have a faith that is uniquely my own. I do pray in my own way. I have faith in my fellow man. I see goodness in many and sad hate in some. "Preach" no. My beliefs are about "Teaching" love and feeling love and respect for one another.
Do not question me.
Wella
(1,827 posts)However, I understand how that answer would be enough to make you reject institutional religion, which, in an effort to sound like it has all the answers, gives lousy ones.
However, it sounds as if you are a person of faith in your own way. How did you carve out a belief system for yourself?
marym625
(17,997 posts)But this OP doesn't come close to saying that.
Do you not stand with the LGBT community in our fight for equality? If so, are you redefining the party of the religious who only see the negative in the Holy books regarding LGBT people? What about what it says about slavery? About women? About people who are not neighborly?
great post, marym625
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)
Fearless
(18,421 posts)because we believe in the existence of a deity who might not like them.
Amazing.
dawg
(10,624 posts)It is, however, exactly what lots of other people are saying (and worse) elsewhere on DU. And it sucks, because it makes people like you feel unwelcome.
I truly believe that if religion had never been invented, people who are different would have just been persecuted in the name of something else.
ncjustice80
(948 posts)
sibelian
(7,804 posts)that declare I am a demonic aberration, a twisted perversion of God's plan.
I am real. Those ideas placed by the religious on whichever pedestal in their minds fits neatly with their "personal spirituality" are constructions.
The Aztecs thought opening people's hearts and letting rivers of blood flow down their pyramids was "sacred".
The word is a moveable feast, Wella. I have watched the use of that word for some time.
THIS is the most accurate representation I can find of the typical use of the word "sacred":
flvegan
(64,407 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)If I edit it to say most, will you then agree?
flvegan
(64,407 posts)"I know that all religions, and their teachings have been very hurtful, and bigoted towards you."
And no, I won't, not that it does nor should matter.
Not "most" nor "all" religions are hurtful nor bigoted, at least not until the stupidest of the human faction gets involved. It's the dipshit, fuckwit assclowns who remain clueless as to their own beliefs that are suspect. The hurtful bigots aren't necessarily based in religion. They're dipshits based in ego. These clueless, classless clowns wouldn't know their own religion if it fell on them.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Bigots are everywhere, you are right about that.
I'm not asking you to change your beliefs.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)You should rewind yourself back to the OP.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)There is definitely a link between religious teachings, beliefs, and bigotry against LGBT. There is also bigotry against LGBT outside of religion. I agreed with you on that point.
My beliefs have never waivered.
flvegan
(64,407 posts)Thanks.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)So happy you found your satisfaction.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)
Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)The OP I read stated a fact. What did you read as "broadbrushed?"
KMOD
(7,906 posts)please explain further.
Sincerely interested.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)politics or policy? No part of the government could possibly be stacked against black people because there are examples of black government leaders?
Because any scant examples of minority presence in an institution means the institution is perfectly equitable to minorities, right? Isn't that the Republican 'post racial' argument in a well named nutshell?
Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)Sometimes, we are nothing more than an accessory for people's cred or to push their own agenda.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)
Gonna need a hammer to go with that wedge.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Many people on DU, legions of them, defended the use of Warren as officiate and raged at LGBT people for daring to object to the denigration, the insults and the slurs. Members of this community are on record telling LGBT people to endure open hate speech. They taunted us for objecting to offensive verbiage, as you know. 'You just want your pony' and 'this is nothing but poutrage'.
The had no empathy for LGBT people denigrated in public by our own Party. They sided with those speaking insults to their own neighbors.
Last week, many of the same people expressed overflowing empathy for the stone cold murderers in Paris. Many opined that whenever someone is insulted or denigrated, that the person doing the denigration should expect a violent reaction. 'I don't condone murder, but....'
Many others simply agreed that these were insults that must be shouted about and attacked.
But when Rick Warren called gay people pedophiles, most DUers and especially the anointed 'Obama supporters' stood with the man doing the denigration.
Earlier in that same campaign Obama used as surrogate Donnie McClurkin, a hate preacher who, on the 700 Club had said gay people kill children, so Christians must go to war against us 'the gloves must come off, this is war!!!!'
DUers defended McClurkin and Obama's use of McClurkin exhaustively. Obama defended him, chided the LGBT community for daring to object to being accused of child murder.
No empathy for insulted LGBT people, great empathy for insulted mass murderers.
wavesofeuphoria
(525 posts)The decision to include Warren was the first of many I heartily disagreed with.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)but that they also say they sort of understand why insulted religious people would go kill some cartoonists and shoppers. 'If you poke the bear' they say 'if you poke me in the eye' they say....
So they do not empathize with their LGBT neighbors, but they do empathize with some mass murderers. Heartless people.
vlyons
(10,252 posts)As a Buddhist, I practice equanimity, seeing everyone as equal. We all have difficulties and problems in life. We all want to be happy and live in peace and security.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)What makes you think that LGBT people are non-religious and even leaders in their faith?
Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)"I know that religions, and their teachings have been very hurtful, and bigoted towards you."
Even our religion has been bigoted toward LGBT, and the current ultra Orthodox is still quite homophobic. I saw nothing in the OP that suggests religious people are bigots because they are religious, but states "they have been harmful." They have, and some still are!
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)He converted during college. When he went to rabbinical school he was already a member of the Boston Gay Men's Chorus, had it on his resume, and nobody cared that he was openly gay or a convert. Since he's never been and never wanted to be ultra orthodox and is openly gay and was before he even went to rabbinical school, I'm sure you can imagine what he thinks about ultra orthodox Judaism and any anti-gay or anti-whatever they espouse that is harmful to anyone. He doesn't care what they believe as long as they aren't doing or saying anything hurtful to anyone else. Ultra orthodox Jews as I'm sure you know barely communicate with anyone outside their strict version of their faith.
Personally, I considered myself non-Catholic and pulled away from the Catholic church before I was even old enough to be of a double digit age not just because of their refusal to recognize women within the hierarchy and unequal to men in pretty much everything but mostly because parishioners were treated as non-thinking idiots that they actively didn't want them reading and interpreting the Bible or doing their own thinking about anything concerning the religion or really anything else - don't think, ask your priest to tell you what to think.
As you know, certain factions in various religions are not accepting of in particular women and LGBT people. That doesn't mean those factions all butt their noses into the beliefs of others. Then there's the Roman Catholic Church whose hierarchy is outspokenly bigoted at the highest level, but they've always been a corrupt gang wishing to go back to the glory days of control in the middle ages. Other than them I'm not aware of any other religion that has a single head of the "church."
Does that mean all Catholics agree with the church hierarchy? Of course not. We learned most of what we did about tolerance of the beliefs of others and embracing other peoples' differences from our very Catholic mom. Neither of my parents gave a fart in the wind that my oldest brother is gay and were relieved when he finally came out of the closet about it (we all long since already figured it out anyway so it wasn't news). Our mom in particular was thrilled that he wanted to become a rabbi seeing as how he was the only one of us with much of any spirituality. She's gone with my brother to many LGBT gatherings where she always practically had to be dragged out of and where so many of them were moved to tears and called her "Mom" because of her immediate and complete acceptance of who they were and in particular some who's own families had rejected them which she is horrified by. She still gets cards and letters from some of them though with her dementia she often forgets who they are (but she often forgets who we are, too).
It's not the religion it's the "church," certain factions of the "church" or certain leaders of the "church" not the religion itself, and religious beliefs are as varied as peoples' faces are and may even change periodically with each individual. Though my brother used to be personally pretty strict concerning Jewish dietary laws, he doesn't care anymore and often has bacon at breakfast or in a BLT (though he always uses way too much mayo and on practically everything).
He like most every other person of faith doesn't go sticking his nose in anyone else's religious beliefs and calls a bigot a bigot whether they hide behind religion or something else. And the latter we're very much aware (along with the rest of the family) was instilled in us very early from in particular our very Catholic mother.
Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)The point of the supportive OP was hat many of us have been beaten down by religion, and despite that, s/he supports us. It is true not all religious people butt in, or are bigoted, but there are many who do and are quite bigoted. I can provide any number of examples just from the past year of various religions/religious people using their religion to oppress/harass/dehumanize/ and yes, even KILL GLBT people. The easiest is Fred Phelps' website. I won't link it here, but it is "G-D hates Fags" (with the "O" and .com). There are people here who seem to believe their beliefs trump or rights, both human and civil. I don't think the OP was saying "religious people are bigots by nature."
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)And there is the problem many of us are seeing here. It isn't the religion that's the problem nor most of the followers nor most of the clergy but bigots that USE their religion as an excuse to be a bigot. The only exception I'm aware of is the upper echelons of the Roman Catholic Church, but they're so insulated from the real world (and purposely so) that they're clueless on what their own followers think and believe. The priests on the ground that actually live among every day people not so much. And those upper echelons are the most hypocritical corrupt money grubbing twits nearly as bad as the ones in the medieval days they so long to have back (and WHY they so long to have them back). Does that mean that Catholics are abandoning the Catholic faith? Some yes, perhaps most no... they just break with the Roman Catholic Church - the CHURCH, not so often the faith.
Personally, I really don't know what I believe anymore and often wish that I was more spiritual. Religious faith is very often a rock to cling to during traumatic times that allows people to suffer those times and get through them. It's hope where their reality has none.
I know all about the Westborough Baptist Church and how disgusting they are. I certainly don't classify them as a religion since it's all the twisted beliefs of a screaming hateful nutter and his extended family. They're just flaming bigots hiding behind their own made up "religion". Just like other bigots that USE their religion as a means to make themselves appear legitimate and worse to try to convince others they are. Because we no longer live in a by-gone era of ignorance the only people they attract are the ones that were already bigoted like they are. Hate doesn't win hearts and minds that weren't already hateful.
All of the "big three" Abrahamic religions have the same basic tenets - there's one god, there's an afterlife where you'll spend eternity either in a bad place paying for not being a good person and a good place you get to enjoy by being a good person. They all describe what things are good to be and what aren't... love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, heel the sick, feed the hungry, help the poor, etc., and don't kill, don't cheat, don't lie, don't steal, etc. All of their holy books describe these things as well as stories (parables) as examples of both goodness and badness. What all three all come down to is Be a Good Person and the incentive to be so. All the rest is arguing over fine print the purpose of which is almost always to find something to use to point to in order to justify intolerance and hate. They were also all written ages ago by ordinary people during a time and in a place where the culture and knowledge was extraordinarily different than today and outside of that specific region.
Skittles
(153,160 posts) Behind the Aegis
(53,956 posts)
KMOD
(7,906 posts)
narnian60
(3,510 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)Know that I feel the same for you. We may even disagree about things from time to time (I don't know, I don't think we've ever spoken). But I stand with you as well.
DLevine
(1,788 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)watching so many DUers who have accepted hateful anti gay rhetoric out of Rick Warren, Donnie McClurkin and other preachers associated with Obama's first campaign, who insisted that LGBT people endure being called child murderers, who taunted us unmercifully for daring to object to denigrating language in our own Party, watching such people suddenly have empathy for the Paris killers because those murderers felt 'insulted'. Well what about Rick Warren calling gay people pedophiles then climbing up on our national stage to flip us off? DU said gay people 'just wanted a pony' when we objected to denigrating hate speech, but DUers opine that the Paris killers had understandable reasons to take action. 'I don't condone murder, but....' they'd say.
Just made it very clear how little many straight people think of LGBT people. They see us as less worthy of respect that mass murderers who target artists and Jews.
So this OP really helps to make some balance for the raging anti gay sentiment that rules many quarters on DU.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)
ismnotwasm
(41,976 posts)May all religions purge the biogtry and hate from thier works and from their dogma.
Ms. Toad
(34,069 posts)responses like yours - and some more explicit about a divide between faith and LGBT people - feel more like a challenge to the work most people of faith have engaged in to reconcile two important pieces of who we are. Many of us struggled for years believing that we must choose between our spiritual lives and our sexuality, and many of us now reject that dichotomy. So the implication suggestion that the presence of many religion oriented threads has been hurtful to me is a message that is, ultimately, hurtful. It implies - in the guise of offering support - that my struggles were in vain because in order to support the LGBT part of who I am you believe you have to reject the faith part of who I am.
As I say, I appreciate the urge to offer support - but since some of those threads have accused me, because of my position on "je suis Charlie" of being anti-LGBT, I'm not feeling terribly supported as an LGBT individual for reasons other than the presence of many religion oriented threads.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts) dawg
(10,624 posts)Personally, I feel my Christian faith compels me to be *more* accepting and understanding of people who are different from me than I otherwise would be.
LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)
azmom
(5,208 posts)
Hepburn
(21,054 posts)...I stand with the LGBT community!
zappaman
(20,606 posts) The Green Manalishi
(1,054 posts)Anybody who belongs to a denomination or contributes to one that denies any right, privilege or entitlement to the GLBt community is my enemy.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)Some are just more open/honest about their Hatred, like the US Evangelicals who are helping legislate death/imprisonment bills against gay persons across Africa. And they want to bring that legislation to the US, you know it.
MarianJack
(10,237 posts)YAAYYY & HURRAYYY! 
PEACE! 
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)her freedoms all the time.
valerief
(53,235 posts)
Beringia
(4,316 posts)
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)On the one hand, I'd like to send some love to teh rest of the LGBT community here.
On the other hand, you made a rather broad brush comment that "religions, and their teachings" have been hurtful and bigoted.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)They have. If religion bad mouths gay people all day, and it does that and worse, then saying religions and their teachings have been hurtful is perfectly fucking accurate.
Have religions not been hurtful and bigoted? Is there some requirement to say 'but not all of them'? Because when religious clergy denigrates LGBT people, they don't say 'but some of them are ok'.
Sauce for the goose, the bigoted, hurtful goose.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Whether it was Romans offended by the implications of Judaism and Christianity for their emperor/gods or Christians blaming Jews for the death of Christ. Also, religion has long been used to control one group or another, one way or another, including slaves on this continent and indigenous peoples in this hemisphere.
I stand with any individual and any group abused for no good reason and, for many centuries, that most certainly has included the LGBT community simply for being the way they were born. ENOUGH!
That said, I also understand wondering what mocking people who believe in God is going to accomplish, besides bringing them closer together and making them more militant and gaining more sympathy for them. In any event, it seem to me that the first battles should be about separation of church and state, laws, etc. Of course, some people pretend those things are "wars," like the imaginary War on Christmas. Still, either the USA is a theocracy or it is not.
Except for an 18 century convention in the date line, the Constitution makes absolutely no mention of religion, except for freedom of religion AND separation of church and state. So, I don't think anyone signed on to a theocracy, let alone to being a Christian nation.
The first fights, IMO, should be about our laws, especially our tax laws, but should also include the pledge of allegiance. And we have to put our money (donations) and our volunteer efforts where our mouths are.
One difficult is, some of our worst zealots sit on the frickin' Supreme Court.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)It's just odd to me. What you are saying is that LGBT people, having been slapped for centuries must continue to turn the other cheek like Christians while the Pope, who says we are disordered, teaches Christians who are offended to punch the person offending them.
The basic rule is that the side that started it-centuries of needless abuse- is accountable for the tone of the discussion, which they start with 'They are defectives' or 'God hates them'.
Not sure why we mock them? Perhaps consider the alternatives, the Francis method of answering insult. Would that be more acceptable?
merrily
(45,251 posts)"Not sure why we mock them?"
Where did I say anything like that? I totally understand why and my post even very clearly said why.
Whether it was Romans offended by the implications of Judaism and Christianity for their emperor/gods or Christians blaming Jews for the death of Christ. Also, religion has long been used to control one group or another, one way or another, including slaves on this continent and indigenous peoples in this hemisphere.
I stand with any individual and any group abused for no good reason and, for many centuries, that most certainly has included the LGBT community simply for being the way they were born. ENOUGH!
Saying I am not sure what things are likely to be accomplished by mocking religion is not the same thing as saying there is no reason to mock or that I don't understand why some gays or some members of other groups mock religion, or even hate religion.
Seems to me that you pretty much ignored the first part of my post, then misread and/or misstated the second part.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and they have liberalized as have the religions.
Women could feel the same, as religions and societies have limited them too.
There seems no reason to focus on religions generally. The fundies maybe, but why the religion as a whole?
Are we required to quit our churches very loudly saying this is the reason why or we are homophobes?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I ask you, would you remain in a racist group just because they had good parking and your friends went there?
The fundies, my issues with them are they are anti gay and anti choice control freaks. So is the Catholic Church. Francis is a Fundie in all meaningful ways. What's the difference, props and costumes?
treestar
(82,383 posts)You're tarring them all because some of them are.
