Why do we tolerate the TSA? The DHS? The "patriot act"?

[Fire Walk With Me]

Our power and our freedom are in grave danger. Institutions stealing our freedom are right now working on stealing even more. The people must unite in saying NO! to these black-shirts, these who destroy the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. Our combined voice can scare them all back under the rocks under from which they'd crawled!

I imagine other people who thought they were free, watched while similar agencies grew and grew, because it didn't effect them right now, didn't effect them today...WE have a chance to STOP the same thing from happening! We have the lessons of history with which to prevent the same endgame! Do we say NO! WE are the power in this country! Unite!

These agencies are just ideas! We CAN say NO to them!

[guardian]

1. K&R

n/t

[flamingdem]

2. TSA is purposefully intimidating

They treat a passenger like dirt if they "opt out" believe me I know.

[KeepItReal]

42. Normally they are respectful when you opt out

I did have one man in ATL give me that Cop attitude as if I'm suspect of something.

He started to pile stuff onto my laptop and I told him not to do that. He was surprised that I insisted he respect my equipment. He said if he broke it the government would reimburse me. I told him I didnt have time for that and needed that machine for work *today*.

He lost the attitude, gave me a pat-down, and properly cleared me to go on my way after the residue check.

Until Chertoff special backscanners x-rays are gone, call me Mr. Opt Out.

[flamingdem]

43. Some are more aggressive than others

but they're all difficult. They are trained to be so in my opinion. I got dragged off to a special room and on my next trip a guy said well that is totally unusual. I dealt with several scowling people. They make it unpleasant, imo.

I have to say I cannot understand why people who normally have suspicions about underlying motives and truths being told could stand to subject themselves to radiation brought to us by Chertoff. Wait until the day they are apologizing for uncalibrated machines! zap

[KeepItReal]

51. I fear for the health of TSA people standing around backscatter X-Ray machines

For hours a day...everyday.

Are those machines properly shielded to prevent radiation from emanating out of the examination area?

X-Ray techs in hospitals and dentists use shielding (and/or operate the X-ray in a different room) to keep from having *any* potential exposure.

Notice how TSA cleverly (incriminatingly) refuses to allow workers from wearing radiation meters?

[flamingdem]

52. Now that I remember it ..

I ended up chatting with the women searching me and they revealed great concern about the radiation. That humanized the experience. Turns out that they are moved around often and they suspect it's for that reason, both were early 20s. I told them that at Heathrow the workers have a class action suit due to multiple miscarriages. Those backscatter machines are so unnecessary, they could use Millimeter with much less risk.

I really think most of them worry, but then get used to it and don't care because it's a decent job for them.

[sabrina 1]

3. Good question. On the one hand we hear endless propaganda about 'freedom and liberty'

and boast about being the 'greatest democracy in the history of the world' yet with barely a peep, accepted the destruction of civil liberties with ease.

Maybe it's fear, which was what they used to impliment these anti-democratic organizations. But if the majority of Americans are so easily bullied into throwing away their rights, then as Ben Franklin said, we don't deserve them.

The other reason, imo, is the media. There is no real news for the general public which makes it difficult for them to learn the facts.

Otoh, maybe it's just a rightwing, authoritarian nation after decades of living with policies that claimed the right to remove the freedoms of other nations, again using fear as the tool to make that claim.

[gratuitous]

4. Such alarmist alarmism

Nothing dire is happening. Nothing at all. And anything that looks dire really isn't. Besides violent crime is at a 50 year low, and you can't argue with that. Unless you're an alarmist. There are personal guarantees involved, and you can't do better than that, can you? All is well!

Or so I've heard, and been lectured repeatedly.

[kenny blankenship]

5. They promise us only the bad people will lose their freedom

that's how it goes in any police state. The "bad people" alone will be punished and the "good people" stand to be rewarded - the two handed seduction of evil. Those bad people - they've been asking for it for a long time. They deserve everything bad that happens to them, and more. With them out of the way, the rest of us are going to finally start getting ahead and it's all going to be coming up roses. When the majority wake up to the fact that they live under a tyranny, it's too late. All the way to the bottom, the authorities claim they must have greater and greater latitude to act in order to keep people safe, as well as the ability to designate and judge offenders in secrecy. In the name of fighting disorder, crime and subversion, they create the environment in which the "police" can commit crimes themselves with total impunity. The opportunity is never missed. Any resistance is crushed and used as justification for further destruction of freedom and civil liberties. Any organized resistance to abuses is portrayed as the visible peak of an underground diabolical plot to overthrow the state and deliver the nation into the hands of foreign enemies.

[whatchamacallit]

6. Because Americans, eager to believe anything authorities tell them, are

pissing themselves with fear?

[Fire Walk With Me]

18. The cure for fear in this case is proportion.

WE are the power in this country. WE have ALEC on the run. WE have stolen the national dialogue from the distraction noise machine. WE have started positive Change.

WE can say no to any idea we wish. The idea counts upon us being afraid to say no.

So...NO! I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it any more!

[randome]

19. Maybe YOU are.

I'm not.

[whatchamacallit]

22. Sorry, if you support the unnecessary trading of liberties for false security

you ARE.

[randome]

23. No, I don't do 'pissing myself'. Ever.

Is the Patriot Act an abominable piece of legislation? Yeah. Do some of the thousands of TSA employees sometimes get out of line? Absolutely. Does DHS sometimes over-reach? Yeah again.

So what? The world isn't perfect. The laws are not perfect. We need to work to change them, not cast ourselves in the role of victims of some amorphous state agenda.

[whatchamacallit]

24. Okay we agree

Now we need a president who agrees.

[randome]

33. Absolutely.

Let's hope Obama has a better majority this time around to hold his feet to the fire.

[bvar22]

57. YEAH! All President Obama needs is a "better majority",

..because we ALL remember how hard he fought against:

*Warrantless Wire Tapping

*Retroactive immunity for the Telecoms that violated our 4th Amendment

*Rendition & indefinite detention without process or review,

*Extending the Patriot Act

*NDAA

*The whole concept of the Unitary Executive.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[Speck Tater]

7. Because we are good decent law-abiding Germans... err Americans. nt

[Cleita]

10. +10

[teddy51]

8. You forgot the NDAA law as well! That one is every bit as scary. We need to get rid

of all of them.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

31. I agree. OCCUPY EVERYWHERE!

[Zorra]

9. Awesome post! I love this quote:

"During the French revolution, representatives of the third estate declared that they were the nation. That was a preindustrial society before mass communication, so they were being figurative. In our case it is close to literally true. The representatives of the third estate sitting as a committee simply became the national legislature. This is why distinctions between public and private resources or the idea of observing local property regulations is rather silly. OWS is no more trespassing on public land than Washington’s army was trespassing at Valley Forge. If we no longer recognize the authority of the Mayor or government of New York City, for example, then we do not recognize its ability to regular where, when, or how we assemble. It is absurd for us to decry the immorality of laws that allow banks to commit highway robbery while still fretting over camping regulations. It is not so much that the Constitution grants or protects the right to protest. Rather, OWS as the embodiment of the nation need not look to any authority above or outside itself. The fact that OWS is present on Wall Street or some other meeting place is its own justification."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002579714

[freshwest]

15. +1,000. Thanks for the link, bookmarking that and K & R.

[lastlib]

37. "...that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends..."

"...it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles..."


(from the writings of some guy named Jefferson...)

[Aerows]

12. Because we aren't bold enough to do anything about it

Hell, I haven't had lunch yet today. If you expect me to start a revolution, it will be on a full stomach at least.

Or actually, an empty one, too.

[Downwinder]

13. I don't, but, with no picture ID what can I do?

[Zorra]

14. Duzy nt

[freshwest]

16. 'These agencies are just ideas! We CAN say NO to them!'

I think people just roll along and forget the obvious!

Thanks for the reminder.

[Fire Walk With Me]

17. RT: "TSA installs undercover agents on Texas busses"

http://rt.com/usa/news/tsa-bus-safe-houston-403/

If you are one of the select few that actually enjoys riding the bus, you might have a change of heart after hearing what the TSA is doing in Houston, Texas.

Democratic Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee held a press conference last week to discuss the details of Houston’s newest initiatives. It is being branded as a program called “BusSafe” and the press release describes it as a necessity for enhancing safety in the city’s public transportation system. Just exactly how they are going about accomplishing that has already attracted its fair share of critics, though.

Under the program launched last week, passengers on busses run by the Houston METRO system will be subjected to random questioning and searches from “counter-terrorism experts” hired by the Transportation Security Administration. Yes, the very same TSA that has become notorious for invasive pat-downs at airports across the country are opening up a new front in their war on privacy, and it’s on Houston’s public busses.

----

All we have to do is say NO! and it ends.

[randome]

21. And this is like some make or break issue with you?

If someone asks me a question on a bus, I guess I'd answer. Big deal.

[sudopod]

28. You see, there's the problem. nt

[Downwinder]

29. Perhaps, if there was a bus to ride.

[Luminous Animal]

47. Why would you allow yourself to be searched and questioned without cause?

How many times in a day would it be okay?

I ride mass transportation 4-6 times a day. If they got me coming and going, that could be 4-6 searches a day.

[GoneOffShore]

50. Why would you answer? Or why would you answer in an airport or train station?

Or if you were stopped at a "checkpoint" when you were walking or bicycling?

It is a "big deal". You are a citizen traveling around your own country, town, neighborhood. You are not a zek being transported to the gulag.

The Stasi did the same in East Germany. And then the wall came down.

[Fire Walk With Me]

20. THIS is one way of many to say NO! to what is wrong!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002604488

[stupidicus]

25. the short answer is I don't think we do

what we're really witnessing is how unresponsive our gov truly is to the desires and wishes of the majority on many such issues, and how much they do the bidding of the monied interests whose pockets are filled in a security/police state environment long in the making, starting with the phony war on drugs, and now the equally phony war on terror.

This has had the duel damaging effect of decreasing our collective faith in gov, which has resulted in the natural consequence of less participation by the voters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout_in_the_United_States_presidential_elections

It would be interesting to speculate about or to find cause/effect relationships of this kind for that graph, no?

It should be noted rhat this is a seperate and distinct effort from the efforts rightwingnuts have made in recent years to discourage voting, e.g., voter ID laws, ect, and is much more tied to the historically less recent movement of the ideological center line rightward, which underlies the many disappointments for example, many have voiced with BHO in the last few years. http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/04/10/150349438/gops-rightward-shift-higher-polarization-fills-political-scientist-with-dread

WHile the politics in DC may be center/right, the idea that we are as a nation is a myth http://www.google.com/search?q=the+myth+of+a+center+right+nation&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGHP_en

[whatchamacallit]

27. Rather intelligent, stupidicus

Welcome to DU!

[stupidicus]

38. thanks

for the welcome and the compliment

I think there's a direct relationship between the voter apathy behind those numbers, and the apathy in DC politics represented by the ignoring of the will of the people as shown in the polls.

For example -- http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/04/10/461246/gallup-americans-have-more-guts-than-obama-support-mandatory-controls-on-co2-emissions/

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/12/09/two-thirds-support-3/

imo it's more about what we're forced to tolerate due to their unresponsiveness, than any willingness on the part of Americans to tolerate it.

I'm not sure there's much if any disagreement here between me and the poster, I was just attempting to address the causes for this sad condition of being forced to tolerate what we don't in majority numbers in far too many cases, want to.

[zeemike]

26. Fear pure and simple.

We are afraid of losing our jobs...and if you lose your job you lose your car and your house and cannot eat except out of a garbage can.
We are afraid of going to jail...made even more fearful knowing that someone will do a body cavity search on your ass.
And then the guards will not be around when that big scary career criminal makes you his bitch.
We are afraid that if we say something wrong they investigate you....and you and all of us know they can plant some coke on you and you don't have a chance in hell of proving it.

Start to see a pattern here?...yep it is all to keep us in our places and our mouths shut and stay far away from any protest.
Want a primer on how to beat it?...read up on the freedom riders....they were not afraid to go to jail...well they wee afraid but they did not let that stop them....and one went two took their place on the line.
But today every thing is on the line because we are totally dependent on the system...much different than in the 60s

[Downwinder]

34. Let me paint another picture.

If I got jail I lose my SS ($33.00 per day) and Medicare.


I get $50.00 credit for every day.
Local tax payers pick up my medical ($1,500+ per month).
Local tax payers also pay approximately $200.00 per day for my stay.
I go from one to three meals a day.
and I point out that Red Cross will not take my blood.

[zeemike]

41. Me too...might be better off in jail

But that is why they would rather scare people...but that could change if we get more for profit jails....

[Downwinder]

44. I figure the difference between a nursing home and jail is

in jail you come up for parole. I would miss DU, so if I were to get tombstoned that might make my decision for me.

[xchrom]

30. we 'hate' the epa but love the tsa. our conundrum. nt

[guitar man]

32. Because

We haven't summoned the collective courage to do anything about it.

[lastlib]

35. "They hate us for our freedom..." (remember that?) So, take our freedom away,

then "they" have no reason to hate us. Problem solved.


That's the strategery. The tactic is, of course, fear. Fear the brown people. Fear the black people. Fear the yellow people. Fear the red people. Fear the things that go bump in the night. Don't fear Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian, etc. ad nauseum. When you are afraid, you don't care if your privacy or freedom to associate or freedom from searches, or habeas corpus rights are taken away. Then the new masters have control. It's that simple.

[DeSwiss]

36. Why?

- Here's why:

In the Bill of Rights of the United States, there is an attempt to secure certain freedoms and protections by way of mere text on paper. Now while I understand the value of this document and the temporal brilliance of it in the context of the period of its creation, that does not excuse the fact that it is a product of social inefficiency and nothing more. In other words, declarations of laws and rights are actually an acknowledgment of the failures of the social design. There is no such thing as 'rights' - as the reference can be altered at will. The fourth amendment is an attempt to protect against state power abuse, that is clear. But it avoids the real issue, and that is: Why would the state have an interest to search and seize to begin with? How do you remove the mechanisms that generate such behavior? We need to focus on the real cause.

We have to understand that government as we know it today, is not in place for the well being of the public, but rather for the perpetuation of their establishment and their power. Just like every other institution within a monetary system. Government is a monetary invention for the sake of economic and social control and its methods are based upon self-preservation, first and foremost. All a government can really do is to create laws to compensate for an inherent lack of integrity within the social order. In society today the public is essentially kept distracted and uninformed. This is the way that governments maintain control. If you review history, power is maintained through ignorance. ~Peter Joseph

''All tyrannies rule through fraud and force, but once the fraud is exposed they must rely exclusively on force.'' ~George Orwell

K&R

[lastlib]

39. I had an alternate name for DHS when it was created: the KGWB

With all the police-state "powers" it was given, it was reminiscent of the old Soviet KGB; and with George Bush behind it, it just seemed natural to put his initals on it, hence "KGWB".

And Tom Ridge just looked like a Kommisar (without the battle ribbons).

[joshguitar]

40. k&t /nt

[Odin2005]

45. "We" don't. The Politicians don't care what we think.

[xiamiam]

46. we do..we have to..the kids will lead ..and unfortunately some of them will be hurt

its up to us to keep the fire stoked..it really is..whatever that means ...many recognize that the status quo is not the place to be hangin out. I'm truly surprised that so much has happened under this administration. I knew we weren't being helped and wall street wasn't being reigned in and foreclosures weren't being addressed adequately but signing executive orders which limit the right to protest and the ndaa (one signed on new years eve and the other on st patricks day friday evening) and shutting down medical marijuana dispensaries, and increased surveillance, and ramped up war against whistleblowers were things i just wasn't expecting from obama.

[Zalatix]

48. Indeed, the politicians no longer listen to the voters.

[SlipperySlope]

53. It's worse than that

It's worse than them not caring what we think. It seems like more and more they don't even feel like they have to **pretend** to care what we think.

[WillyT]

49. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

& Rec !!!

[steve2470]

54. k&r nt

[EmeraldCityGrl]

55. I spent the evening talking with some 18-24 year olds

While these kids ( kids to me) come from a range of socio-economic backgrounds,
they are in many ways a part of a movement that is nameless and unrecognizable
to most people to busy to notice or care. They are uninterested in working for corps
and minimum wage jobs that consume their lives, or working as an apprentice for
no wages with the hope of maybe landing an entry level position sometime in the
future. Many finished with degrees and are unable to find jobs in the field they wanted
as a career. They don't live with Mom and Dad in the basement. Many live communally,
sharing resources, learning skills from each other and older mentors they can barter
and earn enough income for the basics. The are publishing their own newspaper and
some were extremely politically astute.

These kids will never have a pension, a golden parachute, own a piece of the American dream
nor do they want it. They are immensely happy and fearless. They do not fear the police, treat them
with kindness when at Occupy Seattle, fearless of the encroaching police agencies and presence,
fearless of poverty for they are poor by anyones standards.

Every generation has it's nonconformists but this is something different, something hopeful and
while i've done a poor job of articulating what I heard and learned tonight, I need time to think
about this and try to learn more about how they are living on the fringe of a society in economic
decline, politically hostile and increasingly generating a fear driven populous.They are not only
saying "NO" they are living the consequences of saying "NO" and doing it fearlessly.

[xiamiam]

56. i am also astounded by these kids...something so very unique about them

its not just youthful hope and enthusiasm. They're special..and smart. We should never underestimate them. They see right thru the dinosaurs and maintaining the status quo..right thru it. I think it is in part because of the computers and games they grew up with. They have an unbelievable ability to sort thru stuff..and they are not judgmental about lifestyle and choices. You wont find many of them here because they won't wade thru the nonsense. They know better.

[bvar22]

58. Way too many Americans are willing to go gentle into that good night,

...because It is OK when "The Democrats" do it.
The Police State policies of the Bush Administration have NOW been sanctified
by their continuation and enhancement under a Democratic Administration.
That is NOW our New Normal.
Witness the recent threads here on DU about local police using drones,
the threads supporting national coordination of local police suppressing the OWS movement,
and support for the NDAA.

I will rage against the bi-partisan darkness,
every step of the way.
(Thanks to Dylan Thomas for helping me express my feelings about the creeping bi-partisan Police State)


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

[Uncle Joe]

59. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Fire Walk With Me.

[librechik]

60. Congress doesn't work for us anymore. Our other choice

is revolt, and no one has the stomach for that. Obviously petitioning our government is a useless exercise in absurdity.

Can we change Congress to be a representative body through democratic means? I don't know, and I don't think I'll have time to find out before i die. It will take generations of hard work and dedication, with BILLIONS of dollars and ruthless global powers against us. I'm sure many folks will carry on the fight, no matter how hopeless, because any other stance is un-American and cowardly. Will we win? It's a race to the death, unfortunately.

[Autumn]

61. Frogs in a pan of water on the stove

It's just a pan of warm water right now. And to some people warm water feels good.