If someone followed you and asked "What are you doing around here?" How would you react?

[Quixote1818]

Zimmerman made a lot of mistakes but this was probably his biggest. He is clearly worried the "ass hole" is going to get away and because the "ass hole" is running or at the very least walking fast because he thinks a psycho is following him, Zimmerman has determined him to be guilty. First of all he had no business following or asking Martin anything but instead of saying "Sorry to bother you son, but I am the neighborhood watchman for the area and I don't recognize you. Do you live around here?"

This might have defused the situation but by chasing Martin and then saying abruptly "What are you doing around here?" According to the girlfriend.

WTF??? I am thinking Fuck you ass hole! I am not a violent person at all and I would have told him "None of your fucking business".

The blond witness who kind of knew what Zimmerman was like flat out said "Knowing Zimmerman he probably handled things wrong". So it sounds like Zimmerman had a reputation of jumping to conclusions and not being a diplomat.

Even if a punch is thrown at this moment by Martin I think it was justified because he would have been freaked out and his adrenalin pumping, though I doubt it because I imagine Martin might have tried to run again and was tackled right away at which point Martin somehow got the upper hand for a brief few seconds and then lost it.

[Capt. Obvious]

1. "It's not against the law to follow someone"

Just wanted to be first in with that

[Quixote1818]

2. Who said it was? nt

[Capt. Obvious]

3. The Straw Man

[Quixote1818]

8. Got you

[Blue_Tires]

5. It's one of the stale pro-Zimmerman memes

that one low-count poster will chime in with pretty soon...

Of course, I bring up laws on harassment and intimidation, and never get a response from them...

[obamanut2012]

57. And I tell how I called the cops on a guy following me

And how the cops detained him, and he was charged. You AREN'T allowed to "follow" people, and doing it to a kid or a woman will especially get you in trouble. This always gets poo=pooed.

In my CCW class, we had both a defense attorney and a judge with the state tell us that if we told someone to quit following us, and they continued to come toward us, and we were afraid of grievous bodily injury or death, we were allowed to shoot. They said this included fear of sexual assault or a mugging. We have no SYG laws.

The point is, you CANNOT legally "follow" someone/

[Life Long Dem]

63. What were they charged with?

I don't believe it was a charge of following someone.

[stevenleser]

77. I'm willing to bet one of the variations of the stalking and/or harassment laws on the books in all

50 states.

[Life Long Dem]

87. I would bet your right, if it happened more than once.

As far as I read from the law, stalking and or harassment has to happen more then once for it to be a crime.

[stevenleser]

88. If you stalk members of the same race more than once, that probably qualifies. nt

[Life Long Dem]

89. Haven't thought of it that way.

Sounds like a group could make the charge.

[obamanut2012]

85. But yet you and others say it isn't against the law to follow people

But it is. Just because someone calls it something benign doesn't mean it isn't criminal.

[Life Long Dem]

86. Stalking is against the law.

I don't know that following someone is against the law. I'm interested in the law saying it's against the law to follow anyone.

[HiPointDem]

144. it's against the law to follow them more than once, for sure.

RCW 9a.46.110
Stalking.

(1) A person commits the crime of stalking if, without lawful authority and under circumstances not amounting to a felony attempt of another crime:

(a) He or she intentionally and repeatedly harasses or repeatedly follows another person; and

(b) The person being harassed or followed is placed in fear that the stalker intends to injure the person, another person, or property of the person or of another person. The feeling of fear must be one that a reasonable person in the same situation would experience under all the circumstances; and

(c) The stalker either:

(i) Intends to frighten, intimidate, or harass the person; or

(ii) Knows or reasonably should know that the person is afraid, intimidated, or harassed even if the stalker did not intend to place the person in fear or intimidate or harass the person.

(2)(a) It is not a defense to the crime of stalking under subsection (1)(c)(i) of this section that the stalker was not given actual notice that the person did not want the stalker to contact or follow the person; and

(b) It is not a defense to the crime of stalking under subsection (1)(c)(ii) of this section that the stalker did not intend to frighten, intimidate, or harass the person.

(3) It shall be a defense to the crime of stalking that the defendant is a licensed private investigator acting within the capacity of his or her license as provided by chapter 18.165 RCW.

(4) Attempts to contact or follow the person after being given actual notice that the person does not want to be contacted or followed constitutes prima facie evidence that the stalker intends to intimidate or harass the person. "Contact" includes, in addition to any other form of contact or communication, the sending of an electronic communication to the person.

(5)(a) Except as provided in (b) of this subsection, a person who stalks another person is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

(b) A person who stalks another is guilty of a class C felony if any of the following applies: (i) The stalker has previously been convicted in this state or any other state of any crime of harassment, as defined in RCW 9A.46.060, of the same victim or members of the victim's family or household or any person specifically named in a protective order; (ii) the stalking violates any protective order protecting the person being stalked; (iii) the stalker has previously been convicted of a gross misdemeanor or felony stalking offense under this section for stalking another person; (iv) the stalker was armed with a deadly weapon, as defined in *RCW 9.94A.602, while stalking the person; (v)(A) the stalker's victim is or was a law enforcement officer; judge; juror; attorney; victim advocate; legislator; community corrections' officer; an employee, contract staff person, or volunteer of a correctional agency; or an employee of the child protective, child welfare, or adult protective services division within the department of social and health services; and (B) the stalker stalked the victim to retaliate against the victim for an act the victim performed during the course of official duties or to influence the victim's performance of official duties; or (vi) the stalker's victim is a current, former, or prospective witness in an adjudicative proceeding, and the stalker stalked the victim to retaliate against the victim as a result of the victim's testimony or potential testimony.

(6) As used in this section:

(a) "Correctional agency" means a person working for the department of natural resources in a correctional setting or any state, county, or municipally operated agency with the authority to direct the release of a person serving a sentence or term of confinement and includes but is not limited to the department of corrections, the indeterminate sentence review board, and the department of social and health services.

(b) "Follows" means deliberately maintaining visual or physical proximity to a specific person over a period of time. A finding that the alleged stalker repeatedly and deliberately appears at the person's home, school, place of employment, business, or any other location to maintain visual or physical proximity to the person is sufficient to find that the alleged stalker follows the person. It is not necessary to establish that the alleged stalker follows the person while in transit from one location to another.

(c) "Harasses" means unlawful harassment as defined in RCW 10.14.020.

(d) "Protective order" means any temporary or permanent court order prohibiting or limiting violence against, harassment of, contact or communication with, or physical proximity to another person.

(e) "Repeatedly" means on two or more separate occasions.

[Life Long Dem]

172. And that's when you call it stalking and not following.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

139. I would not attack him.

n/t

[janx]

4. Blond witness?

?

[Quixote1818]

7. This lady

I can't find the full length video where she says it. Someone posted it a while back and it has the whole 20 minutes with her.

[janx]

9. Oh, Mary Cutcher.

Thanks. But I didn't know she said that about him!

[etherealtruth]

6. "... running or at the very least walking fast because he thinks a psycho is following him"

A psycho was following him.

I could almost understand (not really but "kinda&quot understand If Trayvon "stood his ground" against Zimmerman.

I completely understand angrily confronting a psycho that is stalking you.

What I can't understand is someone initiating something like this and then claiming he was standing his ground ... boggles one's mind

[ladjf]

10. I would have said, "Who are you and why are you following me". But, after he told me

that he was some kind of a night watchman, I would have quickly told him that I was returning
to my relatives house at "XXX Cypress Avenue". "Give them a call if you are suspicious or walk
with me to their house. Otherwise, I'd like to continue my walk to my uncle's home.

I would have given this information to him even if I had felt that he was profiling. Any adult
knows that the world is full of "official type" guys just looking for an opportunity to do something drastic. But, Martin was young and probably afraid. It's hard to think objectively under those circumstances.

In any event, there is no possible scenario that could have come anywhere close to Zimm
drawing his gun and killing Martin. That would have been true even if Martin had been
beating him up which is very unlikely.

[Capt. Obvious]

13. I like the response, "Minding my own god damned business. You?" better

[Iggo]

22. Me, too.

[Capt. Obvious]

28. Seriously

I don't get the few responses claiming they would be overly polite and fully cooperative with.

[Quixote1818]

38. No kidding, and as though that makes it ok that the kid got killed. nt

[RobinA]

118. Well, Here's Mine

I'd beat it outta there. Don't wanna get shot by no gun-totin' redneck. I'm not arguing with a possible idiot, I want to live. I had road rage play out right in front of me. Armed road rage. Got nothing to prove.

And no, I don't think that makes it OK to shoot someone who reacted differently than I would.

[Daalalou]

39. Even if he was polite...

...I'm not sure I'd have believed Zimmerman. His behavior was already creepy, and it would probably make me skeptical of his "I'm a neighborhood watch" speech.

Gavin de Becker, author of The Gift of Fear, talks about how a huge number of serial killers try to get low-level security jobs, because it puts them in a position that people tend to trust, without the vetting you go through to become an actual police officer, thus giving them easier access to victims. Having read that, and observing Zimm's behavior, I'd think he was one of those types.

I wouldn't be rude in my response, however. I'd probably say, "I'm visiting a guest," but I'd keep walking quickly away from him, while watching him the entire time. If he continued to try to approach me or did anything else that seemed suspicious, I'd call 911.

[obamanut2012]

58. I thought of De Becker, too!

And, a watchman, and even a security guard, cannot legally hold you (the latter can, in certain states, IF they have had certain kinds of training) or demand information from you.

[CBHagman]

84. Thanks for mentioning "The Gift of Fear."

Among other things, Gavin de Becker shows how to assess risks and -- this is key -- recognize manipulation techniques -- generally valuable in a society where the media and email churn rumor mills, favoring the legends over the real-life risks.

[vaberella]

67. I'd never do that. If he can't provide me with ID that says Night Watchman I give him nothing.

That makes no sense to give out my families information like that. He can say what he wants. First thing I would ask is if you have ID. You have none and can't provide me with any...I give you shit. He could be a psycho for all I know who would hurt my family. Stupid idea to give out personal information to someone because they claim some sort of title they can't verify on hand.

[stevenleser]

78. ladjf, read vabarella's response. Would you really expect someone to give address and other personal

information to a creepy person following them?

Unless presented with a badge indicating someone was law enforcement, I probably would have run.

[ladjf]

96. Yes, I read Vabarella's response and understand his points. However, giving out a street number

or telephone number isn't particularly significant in this situation. If Zimmerman wanted to go
kill or rob someone, he could have just knocked on any door at random and invaded the house.

Martin's immediate problem was to try to diffuse Zimmerman's obvious suspicious demeanor.
All the talk about not "giving him shit" if he didn't produce corroborating credentials, (which themselves could have easily been faked) would likely have raise the dialogg to a worse level of heightened animosity.

I think that my approached would have likely ended the encounter.

If I were as worried about Zimm killing or robbing my relatives as you and Vabarella, I would have sat down on the grass and requested that Zimmerman handcuff him and call the police
or, I would have asked Zimmerman permission to call 911.

Under no circumstances would I have taken a "get tough" approach appealing as it may seem.

[stevenleser]

99. No offense, but are you crazy? Giving out address or phone number info to a creepy person following

you?

[ladjf]

101. It always strikes me as funny when someone starts a sentence with " No offense but, you are

a fucking idiot (or something like that). How could such an insult not be offensive?

Fortunately, I know for sure that I'm not crazy, so your comment really didn't offend me.

Let's start with the phone number. Exactly what criminal opportunity would Zimmerman have
attained by learning the telephone number of Martin's relative? And as for the address angle,
the only dangerous aspect there was that it would have identified a house inhabited by black
people.

Perhaps the very safest strategy would have been to sit down on the grass and ask Zimmerman to call the police. I believe that he would still be alive had he had the mature presence of mind to immediately realize just how dangerous Zimmerman was.

[vaberella]

107. I don't think you're grasping the point.

You act as though Trayvon Martin has some prior knowledge to Zimmerman. To him...this guy was creeping on him a few blocks down and then shows up in front of him. First and foremost no one takes any chances with their families whereabouts. I don't care who you are. You'd sooner give a fake address.

I think you're finding any excuse to defend Zimmerman's actions and blame the victim for ending up dead. Disgusting.

[ladjf]

110. I must be a terrible communicator if you have surmised from my comments that I am

defending Zimmerman. I believe him to be a cold bloodied killer and I fear that he might get off
too lightly.

The main thrust of my remarks were directed toward what actions stood the best chance of
heading off a murder.

What in the world did I say that made you think I was defending Zimmerman? My assumptions would have been that he was up to no good and likely to be very dangerous. I would have wanted to avoid giving him any excuse to cause me harm.

[vaberella]

111. The post below and a few of your other posts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=600250

Basically...Zimmerman had no right nor authority to ask Trayvon Martin any questions what so ever. You also made a rather bold statement...by stating that Martin "got tough" with Zimmerman. You don't know that. And even if he did...he would have reason too if he felt threatened by this guy asking him private questions as to his whereabouts and reasons for being there in the dark while it's raining.

Your statements seem to side with Zimmerman that Martin in effect did something wrong in some way shape or form. When Zimmerman was in the wrong from the get go and understanding that would have even ended this discussion.

[ladjf]

115. OK. I see how our tracks of communication diverged. In my former post, when I said that

any "talking tough approach" would have been a mistake, I was directly referring to some of the previous comments on this string such as "I wouldn't have told him shit without proper identification" and other posts that seemed to me too belligerent given the dangerous encounter
that was in progress.

I have no idea what Martin did. However, the fact remains that whatever he did, regardless of what his rights were, didn't keep him from getting killed. There is no telling what he did or said. And now, we, with several weeks to think about it, can't seem to agree on what he should have done.

I ask you, what would you have done had you encountered Zimmerman? And, do you feel that there might have been a way avoid the murder? And if so, does that imply that if Martin had
done what you suggested, he could still be alive. Or, was he simply doomed from the outset
because Zimmerman was going to kill him anyway?

[noiretextatique]

128. zimmerman, a nobody, had a loaded weapon

he also has a history of violence, and clearly he was looking for an opportunity to assert his false beliefs about himself as some sort of neighborhood avenger. i think Trayvon Martin was doomed once this sociopath got him in his sights, and i doubt there was anything he could do about it. profiled, stalked and murdered...that's what zimmerman did. it doesn't matter what Trayvon did, because zimmerman had already profiled him as "suspicious," and zimmerman acted from that place.

[ladjf]

160. Your theory about the situation could well be correct. However, if I were put in the situation

Martin was, I would tried to negotiate my way out of the crazy and dangerous situation.

(I'm not implying that Martin didn't try to work his way out of the situation.)

[noiretextatique]

163. i am guessing you are not 17 years old

do you think a 17 year old has the same knowledge, awareness, etc., that you do? i think is it reasonable to assume Martin was probably scared because some creepy guy was following him.

[ladjf]

165. I don't get your point. Your previous posts said that Zimmerman was going to kill him anyway.

All I said was that I would at least try something that might keep me alive.

It is very likely that Martin, or most anyone else , would have been very frightened.

I have no idea what Martin actually did or said.

The terrible fact is that he is now dead. So, if he tried anything to save his life, it didn't work.

I can't imagine any scenario of actions by Martin that would have justified the shooting.

[noiretextatique]

169. me neither

nor do i think it is clear that he did not try to live. it is clear that zimmerman didn't think he had a right to live in that neighborhood.

[ladjf]

103. Steven, a slight apology to you as I re-read your post, you didn't say that I was crazy. You

asked my if I was crazy. That's a lot less potent and a common expression of disbelief.

Please disregard my smart ass comments on that subject.

[vaberella]

105. Actually it is extrememy significant.

This man comes up to you and you saw them sitting in a car doing nothing. So much so that you tell you're girlfriend this strange dude is in his car doing nothing but watching me. And then he comes up to you. He could be scouting for houses to hit for all you know. You DO NOT give up your information. No sane human being does something so reckless.

If I was scared...I would scream for help super loud and hope to God someone is doing the calling.

Final point...are you implying the boy got tough? How the fuck do you know this information? You're going by Zimmerman's claims who was also seen on top of the boy after shooting him. If someone is coming up to me I would be screaming...and considering that was what was heard was the boy screaming...it fits in line.

[ladjf]

112. I wasn't implying anything about what Martin said. This thread asked the question "what would

you have said to Zimmerman if he asked you what you were doing".

I gave my response, not Martins. I stated what I thought were the best odds of surviving
the dangerous encounter with someone who didn't appear to be on the up and up.

At this point I'm sorry that I got involved in this thread.

[Honeycombe8]

11. What evidence shows he approached Martin and said that? nt

[Quixote1818]

37. The girlfriend heard him over the phone.

Martin said "Why are you following me?" His reply was "What are you doing around here?"

[Honeycombe8]

90. That's not what your post says....what I was asking about, really, was why

do you think GZ approached Martin close enough to talk to him? The gf heard the words, but not who approached whom.

GZ in 911 call to police says that "he's looking at me," and then says that Martin is walking toward him, holding something in his hands.

Martin approached GZ, it looks like (unless there's other evidence), after noticing that GZ was following him, and asked GZ why he was following him.

This does not make Martin guilty of anything. I just see posts sometimes saying that GZ went up to Martin, but I have not seen or read any evidence that indicates that. So I'm wondering if there's evidence out there that contradicts the 911 call where GZ, in real time, is telling the police that Martin is approaching him. GZ was following Martin, but didn't walk up to him and start talking to him, per the 911 call. (The gf statements, as I said, only say some of what was said; she didn't say who approached who, and of course she couldn't see that.)

[dkf]

12. Does the law ever recognize throwing the first punch as being justified?

[The Magistrate]

15. Police Left Me On the Street, Ma'am, After I Not Only Did That, But Said I Had

It was in response to a genuine threat of bodily harm. No need to give a party that poses a genuine threat the first innings.

[dkf]

19. Goodness you punched someone back in the day huh?

Well if it saved you grief more power to you. I wouldn't have guessed.

[The Magistrate]

24. More Than Once, Ma'am, And Fully Grown

Past even the period it is my custom to refer to as my adventurous youth....

[Posteritatis]

43. Fairly often, though it probably depends on the jurisdiction too

The key in that kind of situation is (usually) that the person who swings first is in a place where they're certain there's no way to get away or de-escalate things. By that point the other party's guilty of assault even if they haven't laid a hand on the victim anyway, so it constitutes self-defense.

[obamanut2012]

59. What do you think SYG laws are?

And, even in states without these, yes. Self defense against assault is always a legally justified reason.

[JoePhilly]

113. Yes ... its called "Stand Your Ground" ... duh.

Not only can you "throw the first punch" .... you can SHOOT AND KILL a person if you FEEL THREATENED.

They don't need to punch you first.

And so, if you "feel threatened" in Florida, not only can you PUNCH some one, you can SHOOT them.

[noiretextatique]

124. i can see that

i am being stalked by a crazy man with a gun. he has been following me in a car, and i am so alarmed that i mention it my friend who i am talking to on the phone. crazy man gets out the car, and approaches me in a threatening manner and demands to know what i am going. i knock him on his ass, because i don't know if he is a rapist or a murderer, and since he is not a police officer, i fear for my life and feel the need to SMG.

[dkf]

182. Take a look at the Owens case.

Maybe you should type those same words there.

[The Magistrate]

191. Who Menaced Minor Children With Knives, Ma'am, According To Witnesses, Even From His Own Camp

If one of the kids had laid him out with a baseball bat, the only person arrested wuld have been Mr. Owens.

He was a known factor, often arrested, had frequently threatened children of his neighbors.

He was not simply sitting on his porch, nor was he simply walking back from the store with snacks, when accosted by violent strangers.

[Tikki]

14. Honestly, kids have grown up watching shows like Criminal Minds and Law and Order, etc...They have..

every reason to be deeply concerned, yeah even scared about an adult following them.

Zimmerman is a psychopath by television definition...That's what young ones know today.


Tikki

[treestar]

16. I would be angry and say it's a free country

If black, I might ask him if he would ask the same of a white person doing exactly the same thing.

[slackmaster]

17. I smile, make eye contact, extend my right hand, and introduce myself politely

If the person is rude I draw down, blade at 45, check my six, and run like Hell

[cherokeeprogressive]

18. "I'm on my way back to my dad's fiance's house to watch the second half of the All-Star Game".

"Why do you ask?"

[sylvi]

26. You mean your first instinct

You mean your first instinct wouldn't be to charge them and punch 'em out?

How unconventional.

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. Well when someone asks me what I'm doing,..

I have this uncontrollable urge to tell them what I'm doing.

I'm strange that way.

[sylvi]

32. "I'm strange that way."

I must be, too. I remember as a teenager being braced on at least a couple of occasions by Get-Off-My-Lawn types. I don't recall an irresistable compulsion to just windmill in on them.

[obamanut2012]

60. Did these types follow you all through the neighbor during the evening?

No matter where you walked?

[LanternWaste]

98. My sister was too. I wish her "occasion" had the same benign results yours did.

My sister was too. I wish her "occasion" had the same benign results yours did.

[Quixote1818]

31. And Rosa Parks should have moved to the back of the bus. nt

[sylvi]

36. Rosa Parks didn't punch anyone out, either.

Not in a literal sense anyway. The thought of it would probably have been abhorrent to her.

[Quixote1818]

41. Do you know Martin threw the first punch?

And do you not tell your kids to scream and fight if someone strange is following them? Should rape victims not fight back? Clearly Martin should have been afraid, he ended up dead in less than a minute from that question.

[sylvi]

45. No, I don't know that's what he did at all

But I'm seeing a lot of people trying to justify that reaction as a response to someone following you and asking a question. And you somehow tried to work Rosa Parks into the discussion, so...

"And do you not tell your kids to scream and fight if someone strange is following them?"

No, I tell them to scream and run to the nearest house or other adult. If they were small enough to be at risk of stranger abduction, they probably wouldn't be out of my sight anyway.

"Should rape victims not fight back?"

Of course they should if they are able to. They're being physically restrained and assaulted.

"Clearly Martin should have been afraid, he ended up dead in less than a minute from that question."

In hindsight, yes. But we have no way of knowing what level of threat, if any, Martin perceived from Zimmerman prior to final contact with him.

[cherokeeprogressive]

40. You'll excuse me if I have no idea how in the world Ms. Parks and refusing to sit in back of the bus

any longer has to do with answering a question?

So the idiot armed cop-wannabe asks "Hey, what are you doing?"

"Fuck you, chump. It's none of your business."

A confrontation ensues. Bang. You're dead.

Well at least you stood up for your rights, huh?

[Quixote1818]

42. Good for Zimmerman for shooting down the kid who cared about his civil rights.

The kid deserved it. Just lovely.

[sylvi]

47. Straw man

is full of straw.

[Quixote1818]

49. The underlying argument is that Zimmerman was justified

because the kid may have fought back. I just called the poster out on it because there is no defense in killing someone just because they talked back or even threw a punch in fear.


On Edit: Also, Rosa Parks could have ended up dead or in jail so his argument isn't logical. If both are sticking up for their civil rights and harm could come to both of them what is the difference other than with Martin he did end up being dead and so did M. L. King so I guess he was an idiot too? But I guarantee you the argument here doesn't have to do with Martin being an idiot because he ended up being dead for not showing civil disobedience, the argument is that Martin should have bowed down to Zimmerman and kissed his ass and because he didn't he is dead now and it's his fault. He should have been a good little boy and MLK should never have made waves either.

[sylvi]

51. That wasn't the argument at all

The argument was it isn't worth your life to physically confront some stranger over a perceived insult, no matter how big an asshole he may be. There are other ways of dealing with it.

[Quixote1818]

54. And my point in the OP was that Zimmerman should have dealt with it in a way to

defuse the situation and who are we to judge how someone fearing for their life is going to react, especially since they are 17 years old and their adrenalin is pumping big time. My impression is the poster seems to have been against Martin since the very beginning so they have a record of arguing against Martin or at least for Zimmerman in every turn thats why I pointed out that there was an underlying suggestion that Zimmeraman was in the right. Thats just my gut feeling.

[cherokeeprogressive]

53. Stop making shit up. You started the thread with a question of "What would you do if...?"

No one said Zimmerman was justified. No one at all. That's what you WANT to read. No one's writing it.

Someone I don't know in a place I'm not familiar with, or known, asks me what I'm doing; I'm going to simply state what I'm doing. How that dovetails with Rosa Parks, the Civil Rights Movement, or Zimmerman being justified in killing an unarmed teenager is way, WAY beyond my simple mind.

YOU don't know what words passed between them. I don't know what words passed between them. The difference between the two of us is that you PRETEND to know.

This thread, started by YOU, began with a simple premise. It's since morphed into some kind of Zimmerman Defender hunt. I ain't a Zimmerman Defender. Get that through your head.

[Quixote1818]

56. I could be wrong but in every other thread I have come in contact with you

you have been quick to defend Zimmerman. My apologies if perhaps I have missed some threads where you were not.

[cherokeeprogressive]

64. You'd be hard pressed to find a thread where I used words to "defend Zimmerman" at all.

What I did do was call out those whose reaction to a situation they know nothing about was to kneejerk it.

You've never read a kind word from me in regards to Zimmerman. You've NEVER read words from me to the effect that I thought Zimmerman was justified in ANY WAY. I defy you to prove otherwise.

Could you be an objective juror in this case? Honestly? In my opinion, you could not. You've made up your mind that you know every pertinent detail about a situation where the ONLY details you know for sure are the limited, conflicting details you've read, heard, or watched on TV.

That my friend, is not defense of Zimmerman on my part. It's a statement that you and others like you (those who make up their minds without having all the facts in hand) are not good stewards of our justice system.

A white person who thinks to him/herself "I know that black so-and-so had evil in their heart" is no better or worse than somone who would say "I know that white or hispanic or asian or native american so-and-so had evil in their heart" if they don't have all the facts yet come to that conclusion. I put all you kneejerkers in the same bag.

[WinniSkipper]

122. Best post I have read

....that explains the point of view of us who feel this way. Thanks for that.

I may have to link to this in the future.

[Taylor Smite]

62. The underlying argument is that Zimmerman was justified

No, the underlying argument is to mind your Ps and Qs at all times because the crazy dude could be packing. You need to know how to respond in different situations. Cop comes and talks to you, you dont say "fuck off, pig" even though you have every right to do so.

No one is justifying Zimmernan. Not sure why you want to read it that way. There isnt some crusade against you.

[noiretextatique]

129. the underlying argument is: blame the victim

by assuming he said something "wrong" to the nobody with a cop-complex and a gun who confronted him.

[Taylor Smite]

135. situational awareness

The shooter is still guilty regardless. All the blame is on him. But everyone should use situational awareness to minimize risks. I am not, nor have I ever, blamed Mr. Martin nor do I think he should be blamed.

There are, however, steps that can be taken to minimize risks.

[noiretextatique]

136. what steps could Martin have taken?

none. he was in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong gun-toting murderer. otherwise, i have no problem with the notion of risk reduction. in this case, however, i think zimmerman was on a mission, and Martin just happened to be his target.

[Taylor Smite]

143. The discussion from which our side discussion stemmed

was in regards to what would you do in that situation. This is also what the OP is about. So we werent talking about Martin/Zimmerman per se, just the response which is most likely to diffuse a possible volatile situation.

[noiretextatique]

158. this is no generic conversation...it is about this incident

and i don't think the burden should be placed on the victim, who was unarmed. zimmerman is the one who escalated the situation and took stupid risks. if he had stayed in the car...

[Taylor Smite]

162. k

[ladjf]

97. Rosa Park's life was not in immediate danger. nt

[vaberella]

104. You seriously wouldn't be asking...

"Who the fuck are you and can you show me some ID?" This guy could be a psycho...why would you be divulging unnecessary information? Are you truly being serious in your response?

Maybe it's because I'm from NYC and have been profiled...but no on just comes up and asks me for shit. I want to know who the fuck you are and you better give me some paper work and I will decide how much I give you. I don't even give NYC cops my fuckin' details when they ask.

[noiretextatique]

130. apparently, black people are supposed to be polite

and be prepared to justify our existence to any random asshole who happens to approach us. nod, wink...we just need to "go along" with it.

[cherokeeprogressive]

142. I don't care a person is polite or not, nor do I care if they're black, white, yellow, brown...

I will be who I am, and that's someone who doesn't feel like being asked what I'm doing is an insult to be answered with indignity and insults.

I've been in situations where "going along" has saved my ass. I've posted about it here on this thread. Read up.

I don't have any black friends. I don't have any hispanic, latino, asian, indian, or european friends.

I gots me lots of friends though, and not a single enemy (that I know of).

Hmmm. Imagine that.

Oops... gotta take that back. There are plenty here at DU who think I'm some kind of troll. I guess the way a person votes isn't good enough...

[noiretextatique]

159. zimmerman was not a recognized authority...he wore no uniform

for all this kid knew, zimmerman was a creepy stalker. it is completely unreasonable to blame the victim for not complying with the demands of a nobody with a cop complex.

[cherokeeprogressive]

141. I seriously would not in fact, be asking someone I did not know "Who the fuck are you...?" and I

don't think telling someone I was on my way to watch the second half of the NBA All-Star Game is privileged information.

"This guy could be a psycho..." means you get my point. I was an eyewitness to a friend learning that lesson in the hardest of ways.

I've seen what can happen when a person lets their bulldog mouth outtalk their hummingbird ass. Call it "little man syndrome" if you like. I had a friend who had it. Whether or not he still has it I don't know but what happened because of it changed his life. My friend told the guy he was beating non-stop (for pitchers of beer) in a pool hall if he should watch how he talked to people he didn't know. Hours and many pitchers later, we walked out the door and he caught the heavy end of a pool cue right on the point of his chin. Broke his jaw clean on both sides and this little fireplug of a man was a pale toothpick by the time they unwired it. The guy who swung it was the same guy my friend talked shit to.

As I asked elsewhere in this thread; if that attitude gets you dead, what good did the attitude do you?

In 1979 I was a high school senior who delivered pizzas. One of the places I went regularly was called Varrio Norwalk or VNWK. I can't tell you how many times I drove into the One Ways and drove out without either the pizza I drove in with or the money I was supposed to take back. I was a "white boy" in a vato neighborhood. I had no misconceptions of how bad I was.

In the 90's when I was attending Long Beach State at night I met a former vato from VNWK. He actually remembered me and told me I had a pass in the One Ways because I knew better than to fuck with them and they all knew who I was. They took my pizzas, but no was was out to hurt me.

So the profiling goes not only both ways, it also crosses the line between people in authority and people who could give a shit about said authority.

Ask me what I'm doing? I will probably tell you. I've found it to be conducive to a life devoid of unjuries due to attitude, and have even had that belief validated by someone who could have hurt me bad.

BTW and off topic, I was just in NYC last week. Loved it.

[saras]

20. It depends on their attitude. With Zimmerman, I would have assumed him to be a murderous thug...

...his behavior made it glaringly obvious.

In general, my answer is ALWAYS going to be "who are you and what's it to you anyways?" The degree of politeness will vary. The only answer that REQUIRES any response on my part is the showing of a government (not private) badge on their part.

First - it's as much Martin's neighborhood as Zimmerman's, so any possessiveness is totally uncalled for. If someone starts in about ME being in THEIR neighborhood, I'm going to be looking to either escape or disable them ASAP because I know there's something profoundly wrong with them.

I have heard nothing from Zimmerman's story to indicate that Martin should have taken him seriously or behaved differently than he did. Clearly in this case Zimmerman was in the public servant role and needed to be appropriately subservient.

[leveymg]

21. I was Zimmermanned by a taxi driver in NYC once.

A couple decades ago, I lived in Manhattan and enjoyed going out for a run every now and then. I didn't wear fancy jogging togs, and looked like just another long-haired urban teenage youth at the time in a tee-shirt, sneakers, and bluejeans.

Late one Fall afternoon, I was jogging down the sidewalk next to Central Park on 5th Avenue in the upper 80s, about ten blocks from my father's apartment. Never had a problem before. Not there, not in the burned-out South Bronx, where I had friends.

A yellow cab came to a tire-smoking stop in front of me, and the driver jumped out and started yelling. I stopped in my tracks, and the driver came around the back of his cab toward me.

He was in his 30s, pudgy, and had what looked like an unusual bulge on his wasteband under a windbreaker.

The taxi-driver tried to interrogate me: Why are you running? Where have you been? What are you doing here?

I told him, "I enjoy running. It's a public sidewalk." He said I didn't look like a jogger. I told him I don't wear running clothes, and it was none of his business where I live, or what I'm doing. He eyed me. I looked at his middle. I felt vulnerable. I knew the next thing I had to say would make a difference.

"Do I match the description of someone who just committed a crime nearby?" I asked.

"No."

"Look, buddy. Either you call the cops or I will," I told him. This was long before cellphones. I had no way to call the cops, unless one happened to drive by.

He got back into his cab and roared off into the dusk of another night on patrol as the Guardian of Manhattan's Upper East Side. My Taxi Driver.

I know something of the fear that Trayvon Martin must have felt that night a month ago. The difference was, I'm white. And, I was lucky.

[hfojvt]

33. and that

was how you came up with the idea for this TV show

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_(American_TV_series)


Now we know


the rest of the story

[EFerrari]

34. Never threat of violence but definitely threat of being blackballed because brown

and, I'm not even that visibly Latina. Three years in a not all that upscale neighborhood in Santa Monica and all I can think is that one of the neighbors heard me speaking Spanish to the gardener I hired to do the duplex. Instant chill on the block. I put up a few flyers because my cat was stolen and immediately, Neighbor Mr. Cravitz was out telling me that they didn't do things like that in this neighborhood and looking me up and down. Several incidents like that, up to and including three poll workers around the corner being unable to find my name which was clearly printed on their rolls. I should have called the police but, didn't have the presence of mind. A little slice of Alabama, that hood was, right across the street from Santa Monica College.

[leveymg]

48. Abner and Gladys Kravitz? Not desirable neighbors, at all, but don't tell them that!

[Daniel537]

23. I wouldn't even have to answer that question to a cop

so why on Earth would i answer it to a complete stranger?

[vaberella]

108. Amen. n/t

[guitar man]

25. If I'm on a public street or sidewalk

Or any other public property where I have a right to be, my answer is "none of your business". I don't have to answer to anybody about what I'm doing and where I'm going .

[cherokeeprogressive]

35. I have to respectfully ask...

If that attitude leads to a confrontation whereupon an armed wannabe cop kills you, what good did the attitude do you in the first place?

[Posteritatis]

44. If an armed wannabe cop's after you your own attitude isn't likely to be the problem. (nt)

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. That's not the point at all now is it...?

The question was "What would you do..."

Seems to me there are plenty of responses on this thread that wouldn't do a single thing to defuse an possibly escalating situation. Just the opposite. If I were in a neighborhood where I wasn't familiar and someone I didn't know asked me what I was doing, I'd do exactly as I said... I'd tell them what I was doing. That seems to me to be a much more reasonable response than "fuck you and the rock you crawled out from under, it ain't none of your business".

[noiretextatique]

125. he lived in the neighborhood, just like zimmerman

so, zimmerman has no reason to be "suspicious" of him. except for the color of his skin. please don't try to blame the victim. even if he told zimmerman to fuck off, that is no excuse for murder.

[guitar man]

61. The difference is

I'm 48 years old and have been around the block more than a few times. There's a good chance I might be armed too. Even if I wasn't armed, there's a better than average chance Mr wannabe cop would wind up with a pistol stuck in his ass before its all over with. That's just the kind of old hardass I am.

[cherokeeprogressive]

65. You make me laugh.

I'm 50, and grew up in Southeast Los Angeles County in the Compton/Bellflower/Paramount/Norwalk area. I've been around the block a few times my damn self.

I guess the difference between you and I is that I'd never stick a pistol up someone's ass for asking what I was doing. Seems a bit extreme for me.

Even if I were a hardass, you'd see or hear me bragging about it.

[guitar man]

69. I guess I'm too much like my dad

At least that's what mom always said lol

I guess my answer to what I was doing somewhere would depend a lot on the way I was asked. If someone is just curious or trying to be friendly thats one thing, but if they come off as trying to intimidate me they'll get a whole different reaction from me.

Call it bragging if you like, I've just never been one to take undue shit from anybody.

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. I get told that too... but my Dad is EXACTLY the guy who'd tell someone to fuck off for asking.

And that's not like me at all. The bottom line here is that neither of us knows for certain what words passed between the two, how they were spoken, or ANYTHING pertinent to that part of the story. It's all just speculation on our part.

Just like every word written here concerning the Trayvon Martin murder is speculation.

[KansDem]

106. Hi, (former) neighbor!

I'm 59 and grew up in the Long Beach/Lakewood area.

This has nothing to do with the topic, but just thought I'd say "hi!"

[cherokeeprogressive]

120. Hi KD!

Lakewood is one of my favorite cities!

At one time the Lakewood Shopping Center was in the Guinness Book of World Records as the biggest shopping center in the world... how cool (and looking back, how crazy) is that?

[KansDem]

155. You know, I think I knew that!

At one time the Lakewood Shopping Center was in the Guinness Book of World Records as the biggest shopping center in the world...

I spent many a summer afternoon there! And in Wallach's Music City where I bought a banjo and music supplies (never used the listening booths).

The May Co was our favorite place for "back to school" clothes.

Ah, what memories! Thanks!

[uponit7771]

149. +1

[hfojvt]

29. lots of unknowns in your OP

I would like to have more facts. For example, the phone records should show how long Trayvon was on the phone with his "girlfriend" and from what time to what time they talked. The 911 calls, Zimmerman's and those of the neighbors where you hear screams and a shot (or shots) should also be recordd as to time. The whole incident can be put on a timeline that way. How long was it between Zimmerman's call and Martin's death?

According to Zimmerman's call, which I have listen to a few times. Martin walks past his parked vehicle and then Zimmerman gets out to follow, and Martin runs. Was Zimmerman following him earlier in the vehicle? For how long?

I have no idea what the answer to either of those questions is.

As to the answer to the first question, unasked. How would I react if somebody followed me. First of all, how do I know they are following me? Because they are going in the same direction? If I go by and they get out of their vehicle and walk behind me, that still does not prove they are following me.

A car burbling along behind me as I walk would be a freaky situation. I would be paranoid that it is loaded with thugs looking to jump me. In fact, once it was, but they settled for hurling a couple insults at me. The worst part was, the driver that time was a kid who was on the same little league baseball team as me. I was like "WTF Brett, I thought we used to be friends?" But I never said that because he was with a big, blond gorilla.

Another time a car pulled up behind me at two in the morning, which seemed like trouble three blocks from my apartment. I was relieved whien it turned out to be a cop, but then I felt like I almost got beat up by the cop. He demanded ID and I said "Fuck you. I am not required to carry ID to walk the streets, much less to show it."

Those weren't my exact words. I believe I just asked "why?" and then handed it over after his empty reply which didn't really answer the question. He said something like "Well, you are out on the street at 2 AM so we are kinda suspicious."

In the second question. If somebody really is following me on foot, I probably am not going to let them catch me. My basic strategy for staying alive in any potentially dangerous situation is "run like a rabbit". The other strategy is "be polite". My absolute rudest response would probably be "Huh? I live around here. I went to the store and I am going home." Later when I got home I might vent about some a-hole who stopped me on the street.

Once when I rented a car, I dropped it off on Sunday night and was walking the three miles home. I stopped at Wal-mart to shop and was about 90% done with my shopping when two store security people told me I had to put my bag behind the counter. I actually complied with that, even though it meant more unnecessary walking. I sorta wish I had just walked out and left them to restock what was in my cart, but what can I say, the pop was on sale and I wanted the cheap pop more than I wanted to tell them to fuck off.

[Rex]

30. Many many times as a kid I would go to the 7-11 alone and buy

candy and a soda and walk home. If someone would have stopped me from walking home and asked where I lived and what I was doing I would tell them. Then the next question is what would they do?

Well, in THIS case we can say they would get out of their car and ask me a lot of questions in a not so nice manner, then get on their cellphone. Now would I hang around and wait or go home? I would start to walk back to my house - where it is SAFE. The kid just wanted to get to a place that was SAFE.

Said gentlemen starts to follow me on foot now leaving his car...I would probably start to run thinking he is going to hurt me.

Next question...where did he shoot me? Front or back?

If front then that means I probably stopped to fight, in the back then that means the guy shot me as I ran trying to get home where it is SAFE.

In all this one thing is clear. I died.

[HipChick]

46. I've been asked that, walking around my own neighborhood..

My response was "None of your effin biz.." and I challenged the idiot and called the police at the same time to report him for harassing me

But I'm a grown adult...not a 17yr kid

[TransitJohn]

52. "Who the fuck are you?" eom

n/t

[Ikonoklast]

82. That is the correct answer.

"None of your damn business" is also acceptable.

My usual one is "Fuck off, asshole." They invariably promptly start to look for something else to do

I do not take kindly to anyone asking me my business.

I am under obligation to tell you anything.

[uponit7771]

150. +1

[Taylor Smite]

55. I worked at a car museum

In college. We were fixing these old cars all day and some business was having a low key dinner party that evening so I volunteered to stay late and lock up. Anyway, I was covered in grease and had some old jeans on (these cars are messy). I was sitting at the front desk reading a Time magazine and drinking a Mountain Dew while the party was going on. About five guys at the party thought I was a homeless person who wandered in and one grabbed me by my collar and literally threw me out the door. He said he was gonna call the cops for entering a private function and "stealing that guys pop and magazine he was reading." He wouldnt believe me when I told him I not only worked there, but I was "that guy" who he saw reading and drinking the pop. I had to call my boss to come from home and tell the folks to let me back in to my place of work.

later that evening I had to give everyone a tour of the museum. I was reaaaal enthusastic about that.

Lucky we dont have stand your ground laws in my state. I would be shot dead on account of dressing like a car mechanic in a car museum.

[Life Long Dem]

66. If someone followed you and asked "What are you doing around here?" How would you react?

I would tell them what I was doing there and then most likely continue on my way home. I would be a little annoyed at being suspicious to them but would brush it off as their problem.

[cherokeeprogressive]

71. You're a Zimmerman Defender. I can see it in your eyes. n/t

[Life Long Dem]

75. Your an idiot.

[cherokeeprogressive]

76. LOL.

Otay.

"How do I know this? I saw his eyes in the bail hearing."

That was justification for a DUer making the claim that Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin for the thrill of it.

Hence the reference. Sorry I offended.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=589969

[Life Long Dem]

81. Okay

I'll accept the apology in accusing me of defending Zimmerman.

[vaberella]

109. I never knew there were people willing to give up information to someone they don't know. n/t

[noiretextatique]

131. apparently, if a white person suspects you, you should not only be polite

but also show your ID. but most definitely you must defer to white suspicion about your right to exist.

[Life Long Dem]

132. Or maybe they don't want any trouble

And they blow off the whole macho act.

[noiretextatique]

134. or maybe they don't think their existence is "suspicious"

or defer to other people's suspicions of them. when people question me in elevators, i just ignore them now, but with SYG, perhaps i will need to show my papers. do you think ignoring zimmerman would have worked for Martin?

[Life Long Dem]

137. I don't think Zimmerman would have shot if they never tangled.

[noiretextatique]

138. really? because his actions were so reasonable and commendable up until that point

the problem with your scenario is: zimmerman was carrying a loaded weapon, cruising around the neighborhood playing cop. this idiot actually THOUGHT he had some type of "authority" he obviously did not have...a legend in his own mind. they might have tangled, but clearly, zimmerman was looking for a confrontation.

[Life Long Dem]

140. They can't even say he disobeyed a police order

because it was a suggestion by the dispatcher.

[noiretextatique]

157. do you think his actions were reasonable?

driving around with a loaded gun looking for "suspicious" people? and he most certainly did disobey the suggestion of the dispatcher: "we don't need you to do that." was it reasonable for him to continue his pursuit after the dispatcher "suggested" that he not?

[Life Long Dem]

164. I think he went overboard on his neighborhood watch with suspicion.

If a leaf fell on someones driveway he was on the phone to 911 as to suspicious activity.

He wanted to be a cop and he had no training to act like a cop. No... his behavior on suspicious activity is the part that has me wanting to see Zimmerman pay for this with a conviction. A lot of his behavior was because he wanted to be a cop. But all he was, was a wannabe neighborhood watch guy harassing the neighbors.

I believe he did continue to pursue Trayvon after dispatch told him not to. I base this on the lies that have already come from Zimmerman and the location of his truck to the fight. He clearly says to dispatch Trayvon is in his late teens. Yet under oath he said he was close to his age. He is a bullshitter and has no credibility.

[vaberella]

146. You're blaming the victim. Fuckin' hell.

If she didn't wear that outfit she wouldn't have been raped.

[Life Long Dem]

148. She didn't tangle with him

The hoodie didn't tangle with Zimmerman, Trayvon did.

[vaberella]

152. How do you know?

How do you know Zimmerman didn't attack him and he fought back?

[Life Long Dem]

153. Trayvon's girlfriend on the phone said Trayvon

asked Zimmerman why he is following him. Without that occurrence there would be no tangle. That's the start of a tangle.

By tangle I don't mean the actual fight, I mean when they first met to tangle. The confrontation is the tangle. I never said who hit who first or who fought first because I don't know.

[noiretextatique]

161. AND? he was following him, wasn't he?

again, what unreasonable about asking someone who was following you why he was following you? why would that question lead to a "tangle?"

[vaberella]

167. It makes absolutely no sense. n/t

[noiretextatique]

168. it actually does make sense

if you believe black men are suspicious and should submit to constant questioning by random strangers.

[Life Long Dem]

170. Nothing is wrong about wanting to know why someone is following you.

My point is, if this never happened, there wouldn't have been a tangle. Since it takes two to tangle, we had a recipe for a tangle once they met up with each other. They met each other and shared a few words when the fight broke out.

If Trayvon brushed off Zimmerman and went home instead, we wouldn't be talking about this. But Trayvon couldn't handle being under suspicion, by this wannabe cop.

[shimonitanegi]

178. So accoding to you

Martin had no right to walk around on the public street while Zimmerman had every right to do whatever he wanted to do. How dare Martin walk around Zimmerman's neighborhood. Martin only got what he deserved.

[Life Long Dem]

188. Who said that?

They both "stood their ground" because they both had a right to be there.

[vaberella]

166. That's the tangle?! That's a reasonable question.

What confrontation?! That is a legitimate question. The man was in the car staring at him and then all of the sudden the boy makes a determined effort to avoid him and then the guy comes up to him. How in the fuck is it Trayvon "tangling" him? Zimmerman did it from the moment he left his car and FOLLOWED the boy to where Trayvon was.

The boy is not tangling anything. You need to stop. That is not a "tangle." Why don't you see Zimmerman following Trayvon to where Trayvon is as a "tangle"? Why is it Trayvon asking a legitimate question the "tangle"? Just admit you are blaming the victim and move on.

[Life Long Dem]

171. Because it takes two to tangle.

[vaberella]

176. You're a piece of work.

Actually it's "tango" not tangle. In any event...all your posts had a bias slant towards Trayvon, not Zimmerman. Actually you evaded and ignored all of Zimmerman's actions by continuously stating Trayvon did one thing. Conveniently forgetting...that Trayvon would never have spoken with Zimmerman, would never have met Zimmerman up close, and wouldn't be lying dead because of Zimmerman if Zimmerman NEVER stepped foot out of the car. If Zimmerman was an adult and Trayvon gave him attitude like you continuously attest...where was the adult in him to back off? Considering Zimmerman, knew himself he had no authority to ask Trayvon shit or detain Trayvon in any way... But no he did not. Trayvon didn't tangle shit. Zimmerman did that the moment he left his car. Why can't you see that irresponsiblity lies with the man who killed the victim?

[Life Long Dem]

195. According to Trayvon's girlfriend.

Last edited Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:25 PM - Edit history (1)

Trayvon first asked Zimmerman why he is being followed. That's a confrontation or a tangle. But according to you the facts are biased. And according to you Trayvon had all the right in the world to have an attitude against Zimmerman for being followed and being suspicious to Zimmerman. Bullshit. Talk about a piece of work. According to you Trayvon had a reason to beat the shit out of Zimmerman. Why? Because Zimmerman followed him. And blacks have it hard when it comes to being under suspicion. Yep, pure BS.

And your wrong about "tangle". verb - embroil, tangle, sweep, sweep up, drag, drag in -- (force into some kind of situation, condition, or course of action; "They were swept up by the events"; "don't drag me into this business&quot

[The Magistrate]

192. That, Sir, is One Of the Stupidest Saws Ever Circulated: It Just Takes One, Determined To Have It

[vaberella]

145. Excuse me...macho act that I have a right to keep my personal information personal?

When did this become about being "macho"?

I understand "the talk"...I've been dealt with it. But when someone doesn't identify themselves with ID that says they are a cop or security guard...but just a stupid resident. They have no right to ask me shit and I am not obligated to give it up. Stop making it seem the victim is to blame and suggesting he was acting "macho" or "tough" if he chose not to release personal information to a no one.

[Life Long Dem]

173. The girlfriend said Trayvon asked Zimmerman a question first.

You have it the other way around to start with. Zimmerman didn't ask Trayvon anything until Trayvon did, and then he answered Trayvon. Macho act or an attitude, Trayvon had one.

[vaberella]

175. Thank you for finally admitting that you believe Trayvon cause his own death.

The question is legitimate if the person is coming up to Trayvon. Another point of reference, the girl would also be only hearing one end of the conversation...probably not Zimmerman's end too well. However we don't know all of the information she did hear.

Secondly...Zimmerman himself asked questions. If Zimmerman had no beef and he was the adult in the room. He could have chosen not to "tangle" and state, "Nothing man...and walk away." Or just ignore the kid and keep walking. I want to know how Zimmerman ended up in the path of the kid. If his car was parked a legitimate distance.

Lastly...thank you for outing yourself.

Macho act or an attitude, Trayvon had one.

<--So in essence Trayvon was asking to get shot and killed because he asked Zimmerman a legitimate question when came from Zimmerman first being in his car and watching Trayvon to leaving his car and FOLLOWING Trayvon to the confrontation that ultimately killed him. If he never asked the creepy guy a legitimate question...he wouldn't be dead.

You're full of shit man. You aren't after any truth or holding off for facts. You blame Trayvon and not the man who got out of his car and followed him. You blame Trayvon for getting killed...and for you to continuously deny it...is ridiculous.

[noiretextatique]

194. it takes some effort to morph the victim of murder

into a thug with a macho attitude, especially since zimmerman is the one who acted like a thug. as Eucmenist stated so well, the insistence that Martin be "polite" to a gun-toting nobody with a cop complex is equivalent to saying Martin was an uppity "n" who didn't know his "place." if Martin had been armed and if he killed zimmerman, do you think there would be so many concern trolls hand-wringing about Martin receiving a "fair" trial? not a chance.

[noiretextatique]

126. i'm guessing you are not black

and subject to continuous questioning about your right to be...anywhere?

[Life Long Dem]

174. So is this an excuse for not being able to handle being under suspicion?

That blacks are under so much suspicion that it's alright to fight it out with whoever finds you suspicious.

I'm white and I can handle it when someone finds me to be suspicious. Just because some old lady doesn't know why I'm standing at the bus stop is not my problem. Because I know I'm not doing anything illegal. So yes, I brush it off and move on. I don't confront the old lady because people find me suspicious.

Didn't Trayvon know he wasn't doing anything illegal? Yes he probably did. But he just couldn't handle Zimmerman's suspicion onto him.

[noiretextatique]

180. how utterly ridiculous!

Martin did nothing to arouse this mudererous racist's "suspicion"...he was walking home from the fucking store.
zimmerman is the culprit here, and yes, even his "suspicion" was totally based on Martin's race. keep on defending a murderer...it speaks volumes about YOU.

[Life Long Dem]

187. Except to meet up and tangle with Zimmerman, Trayvon did nothing.

[noiretextatique]

190. meetup my ass

zimmerman profiled him, followed him, and got out to the car to confront him, after being told not to do so. this was no "meetup."

[jp11]

68. Tactful.

This might have defused the situation but by chasing Martin and then saying abruptly "What are you doing around here?" According to the girlfriend.

WTF??? I am thinking Fuck you ass hole! I am not a violent person at all and I would have told him "None of your fucking business".

Great way to get in a fight.

While I might feel the same way I sure as hell wouldn't be tossing around curses to strangers, lest I incense a possible nutjob, especially if they had been following me.

[LanternWaste]

117. I doubt that genteel civility would prevent your nut-job's intentions...

"I sure as hell wouldn't be tossing around curses to strangers, lest I incense a possible nutjob, especially if they had been following me..."

I doubt that genteel civility would prevent your nut-job's intentions-- especially had he already been following you...

[noiretextatique]

127. not sure a scared 17yo would have your presence of mind

when confronted by some random asshole with a cop-complex.

[Angry Dragon]

70. Mr. Z will spend the rest of his life

looking over his left shoulder

[ileus]

72. I'd have my hand on my pistol, I'd pick my words carefully.

[ctaylors6]

74. would depend very much on specific circumstances

I've been in a few situations in which I've basically asked someone else that. I guess in certain situations, I wouldn't think about it being wrong to ask someone else what they were up to.

One time we'd had a bunch of thefts on our block of planters and bikes and other things from people's yards. My husband and I saw a van (without any identifying print) pull up to our neighbor's house. Two men got out of the van and walked up to the plant urns and wiggled them around. My husband stepped out onto our front porch and watched them. He was about to walk over and ask them what they were doing, when they went back to the van and got out equipment to start landscaping something. It ended up they'd been hired by the homeowner. It was just weird that the first thing the did was wiggle the planters. I didn't think there was anything wrong with my husband watching them and even going over to ask what they were doing. We know each other on our block and kinda watch out for each other's houses when others are at work/out of town.

Another situation: I was at my kid's elementary school chaperoning an evening event. I volunteer a ton at the school and know all the staff who would be there at night (the regular custodial staff is 4 people plus 2 others from the district who regularly are at the school). The parents were told to pick up at a later time at a certain place. Anyway, this man I didn't recognize came about halfway through the event. He was walking around the outside of the school for little while, then he started pulling on doors to get into the school. I grabbed the PTA president who was also chaperoning. I asked her if she recognized him as a parent or staff. She didn't either. He found a door that was open and came in (it wasn't near where the parents were picking up and dropping off). We walked up to him together and asked him something to figure out who he was and what he was doing there. I think it was something along the lines of "can we help you" but I honestly can't remember the words we used. Anyway, he pulled out his ID and was very nice. He worked at another school in the district, had never been to our school so didn't know how to get in at night, and was covering for someone who was sick. It was all good.

I know those are the exact same kind of situations but I really do think there are certain circumstances in which someone should be understanding about being asked what they're doing somewhere.

[stevenleser]

79. This actually happened to me about a year ago. I almost forgot until your OP

I was in Brooklyn taking photographs of the city health building for an article I was planning to write in favor of flu vaccinations.

Some man came up to me and asked me what I was doing and why I was photographing that building.

My response was, "Why?"

The gentleman then pulled out some sort of combined NYPD and Homeland Security credentials. I guess the gentleman was worried I was casing the building. I handed him my business card which at that time had OpEd News journalist on it and explained my plans for an article. I had just gotten the flu vaccination in that building. He was fine with that and we both went on our way.

The point of my comment is, I wanted to know why someone thought they had the right to ask me what I was doing on a public street corner. I am sure Trayvon wanted to know the same thing. In his case, Zimmerman had no need or right to know. If the man in my case had not been able to provide any legitimate law enforcement credentials, I would not have been forthcoming with information. I might have even called the police.

[The Magistrate]

121. Exactly, Sir, And Zimmerman Had No Legal Authority To Question Or Detain

Yet he seems to have operated on the view that he had the right to question and detain a perfect stranger on a public way.

[hunter]

80. I'd say, "My name is John...

"...I'm waiting to deliver a mysterious suitcase to a hooker-killing cowboy who's supposed to give me $27,000. On top of that I've got my neighbor's head in a bowling ball bag under my sink."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Empty

Or else I would **be** The Cowboy and nobody would ask me anything, especially not a guy like Zimmerman.

Thing is, I'm a tall white guy. I've never been asked a question like that, except by the cops, and they asked nicely.

I can imagine being a black kid confronted by the likes of Zimmerman, but I'll never know it.

[NoGOPZone]

83. I've found the familiar quote "If I told you

I'd have to kill you" to be very effective.

[MrSlayer]

91. I'd probably tell them.

Depending on what I was doing I might even tell them the truth.

[Canuckistanian]

92. "I'm looking for your mom"

Comes to mind....

[Honeycombe8]

93. LOL.

[Rittermeister]

94. Not applicable

I'm a fat southern white guy in the south. I only get hassled when I go to the west coast and people mistake me for a Republican.

[shimonitanegi]

95. I strongly believe Martin's girlfriend's stroy, rather than the killer's.

I don't believe Martin started a fight. Martin had no known violent history, unlike Zimmerman. We all know from his 911 call that Zimmerman was frustrated and angered by Martin walking around his neighborhood. Like you said, Zimmerman convicted Martin of some kind of imaginary crime. So, Zimmerman had a motive to attack Martin and I think that's why he was following Martin.

In conclusion, person with a deadly weapon and violent criminal records would most likely be an aggressor, not the other way around.

[Taitertots]

100. Punch them in the face, Oh wait that is terrible advice

Likely to result in incarceration or death.

[annabanana]

102. "Who the hell are you and why are you following me"?

for starters

[KurtNYC]

114. I know the answer because a rent-a-cop did it to me.

I was unarmed and not doing anything but parking at 8pm and going to a friends house.

I complied and let him search me. He stood behind me and patted me down. Never showed a badge, never showed a gun just said that my presence was a concern. Scared the crap out of me and while he was searching me I was planning to immediately call the cops when it was over. I did not call the cops. I just let it go because you never know what the cops will do, and they may know HIM.

I'll give you one guess what I was wearing at the time...

[shcrane71]

184. I've seen rent-a-cops tackle a mall shopper who was leaving with his packages.

Other mall cops were called, and they found receipts for all packages. The entire time the victim kept yelling, "You're not a real cop! Call the real police because you just assaulted me!"

[KurtNYC]

189. Problem is, as with GZ, many times the rent a cops know the real cops

In many communities, like Los Angeles, you should not call the police unless your life is ALREADY in danger.

[shcrane71]

197. With that being the case, we've got major problems.

This is Omaha's police making an arrest:

[LanternWaste]

116. When that approximate scenario happened to my sister in '87, she responded precisely

When that approximate scenario happened to my sister in '87, she responded precisely as the contextually-challenged do and answered the question as though it were sincere. That resulted in her being assaulted and would have been a rape-victim had a patrol car not coincidentally pulled around the corner of our block at that very moment.

In the precise circumstances that resulted in Travon getting shot and killed, she now knows to run.

[MichaelMcGuire]

119. Just chilling (nt)

[noiretextatique]

123. i used to get this all the time...in elevators in buildings where i worked

one day, a white man i'd never seen the building got on the elevator and asked if he could help me. i told him: "no, not unless you can do my work for me." he turned red, and that was that. fuck going along with people's stupid, racist sense of entitlement.

[upi402]

133. SHOOT HIM!!!!!!!!!!

I would feel threatened and suspicious. Therefore execution is in order.

[Kablooie]

147. You talkin' to me? You talkin' to ME!!?

[uponit7771]

151. The FACT that the person is NOT IDing themselves FIRST means they are NOT law enforcement in that

...situation and would ask them who they were first before I gave up any info

[datasuspect]

154. i would ask them . . .

"are you the law?"

if they answered no, I would tell them to get the fuck out of my face.

[TrogL]

156. *sarcastically* "Can I help you with something"?

I live in what passes here for a rough part of town. A certain amount of the population has "issues". If somebody starts following me, generally confronting them is enough to run them off.

Remember, however, that my situation is completely different. We have gun control up here and the chances of somebody actually carrying is negligible unless I'm standing right outside a gang hangout.

Then again, I get told "look, you're 6 foot 185 pounds with a permanently pissed-off look on your face. Nobody is going to mess with you".

[Shankapotomus]

179. I was asked that question once

On my sister's property by a workman. Opening the door with the key she gave me was always tricky and the workman saw me struggling to get in and wanted to know what I was doing. I thought he didn't have a right to know and that it was an offensive question so he called the cops on me. Ironically, I could have done the same thing to him when I arrived and found him on my sister's property. But I knew enough to know an actual thief would not ignore someone else's presence and continue with their break in. Why he thought I would be someone attempting a break in in broad daylight when his presence had been clearly visible to me the whole time, I have no clue.

I was younger then, however, and today, while I still might internally feel offended, my reaction would be more restrained and amicable.

[Comrade Grumpy]

185. My response: "Minding my own business. How about you?"

[cynatnite]

186. I would scream as loud as possible and run like hell...

As a woman, my reaction would be considerably different. Men that follow us like this usually means trouble for us. Although, not in the same way as poor Trayvon, but the potential danger would definitely set off warning signals.

[MrScorpio]

193. "Leave me alone.", would be the first words out of my mouth

Next I'd tell him to go away. I'd keep walking to my destination, unless he touched me first.

After that, I figure that my reaction would be to punch him in his fucking face and run.

Yeah, I'd cold cock his ass. He'd have to catch me and take me down for a struggle on the ground.

I'd be in fear of my own life, with that, who knows what else is do.

[SomethingFishy]

196. I would say

"I'm looking for a place to hide a body, know any good spots"?