Why promote a site like Disscusionist when we know how important online is?

[MaggieD]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by uppityperson (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Thus was locked in Politics as off topic. How about in GD?

Diehard Democrats knew this would be a tough one. Both because we had a lot of senate seats up in red states, and because the president's party always loses seats in mid term races.

But what made it really discouraging for me was know that a person who calls themselves a Democrat actually created a website pretty much inviting republicans to taunt Democrats and dance on our graves. Discussionist. It literally sickens me.

And even worse, the jury system there is so clearly used by conservatives to jury swarm and shut down the voices of liberal posters they cannot effectively debate. They don't care about community standards and rules. They vote to hide based on hide for liberals, leave for conservatives.

I guess your only consideration is clicks and the money you can make. At least that is what it looks like. Yeah, I know you'll ignore this or provide some one line answer that denies reality. But I think you've let the Dem party loyalists down in a bad way. Just my opinion.

[LittleBlue]

1. Don't go there if you don't like it

Discussionist has zero impact on the election. Almost everyone there is strongly partisan and won't have their minds changed.

[MaggieD]

5. It's silly not to realize the impact of online

And it sure doesn't help to have a dem create freepervile junior.

[Codeine]

2. Online discussion boards aren't influencing

elections. Nobody changes their vote because of a rousing argument on Discussionist or DU.

[MaggieD]

4. Yes they do

Especially the younger generation. I think you're naive if you don't realize that. They don't waych news at all. All info comes from online.

[Codeine]

6. People do not use discussion boards

to make political decisions. Young or old, that's not how discussion boards work.

[MaggieD]

9. Not true

But even if you believe that How does creating freepervile junior help? Please explain.

[Codeine]

14. It doesn't help, it doesn't hinder.

It's like asking if my choosing Earl Grey over English Breakfast tomorrow morning helps or hinders economic growth in California -- it has no impact whatsoever.

Discussionist creates a source of revenue for the owners. No more, no less.

To pretend that young people are so dumb that their minds are being changed by Discussionist or Freeplandia is simply ridiculous.

[MaggieD]

24. That's like a Dem pol running then knocking doors for a repub

Obama won using social media and other online tools. Online matters. Whether you want to admit it or not.

[Codeine]

30. Social media =/= discussion boards. nt

[MaggieD]

32. In your opinion

The Obama GOTV machine would not agree. Hell, they hire people to post on liberal discussion boards. Sorry, you're wrong.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

3. I had forgotten about discussionist. Till just now.

[MaggieD]

12. You must not come here often

Today is the first day they haven't promoted it on the front page in months. Even they are ashamed of it on election day I guess.

[maced666]

7. Just don't go there.

Geez. How tough is that to figure out?!

[Travis_0004]

8. Money

Two websites are more profitable than one.

[MaggieD]

10. Yep

People that post here should keep that in mind. All you are is a dollar to someone. No principles involved. Apparently.

[Codeine]

18. Then go away.

Seriously, if it's that awful that Skinner and Co. own a website that idiots make idiot noises on is that offensive to you then beat feet.

[MaggieD]

35. And if you live in a red state just move?

You're saying the same thing. Not a solution.

[Codeine]

38. I'm sure packing up and moving away from DU

takes significantly less effort than picking up stakes and moving from Texas or Arkabama.

Honestly, it's just goddamned idiotic to believe that Skinner is harming Democratic politics by promoting and profiting from Discussionist. Idiotic, silly, concern-trolling nonsense.

[MaggieD]

41. Again your opinion

IMO it's just goddamn idiotic to think freeperville junior doesn't add to the problem, especially since most of those under 30 get their news online.

[Codeine]

46. People under 30 aren't so fucking stupid

as to get their news from Discussionist. Discussion boards are a tiny, tiny slice of the internet that tend to appeal only the the argumentative, hardcore partisans.

People like us.

Could Discussionist change your mind? Your vote? Your philosophy toward government? Of course not! Kindly give younger voters the benefit of the doubt and assume they are at least as savvy as you when it comes to digesting information online.

[MaggieD]

49. Your opinion not supported by evidence

People under 30 get their info exclusively online. Period. You IMAGINE none of that comes from idiotic sites like right wing blogs, freeperville, or right wing sites disguised as nuetral like Discussionist. You're wrong. Period.

[Codeine]

53. The mountain of facts you've provided

to back up your bold statement has convinced me!

Oh, wait. You didn't present any facts at all. My bad. I guess I'll have to rely on the common sense assumption (and over a decade of Usenet experience and about twenty years arguing on the 'web) that people don't change their minds based on imbecilic arguments on message boards, under-30 or otherwise.

[MaggieD]

57. I'm not going to play go fetch

You're the one making the claim. You prove it. There are no end of articles showing that the Dem command of social media and online won in 2008 and 2012. You're behind the times if you're amazingly unaware of that.

[Codeine]

59. Again, social media isn't message boards. nt

[MaggieD]

60. Then why does the dem party pay people

... To post on them? Are they just stupid?

Seriously- I can't believe I have to even make this argument. It's obvious to most well versed poltical people.

[onehandle]

11. The DU owners are looking to cash out/up. Therefore Discussionist. nt

[MaggieD]

15. Let's start a real democratic site - non-profit

[Codeine]

19. Go for it. nt

[MaggieD]

21. I'd put in $50k

Maybe a kickstarter.

[upaloopa]

13. Never been there don't intend to go

[MaggieD]

17. Doesn't negate the bad impact

Disgusts me that so called Dems created freepervile junior. Not you?

[upaloopa]

36. There is a lot in this world I don't like

I have to spend time being positive too.
There is a lot that is still beautiful in the world.

[MaggieD]

39. Sure, but the GOP is set on disminishing it

Little by little. Sucks that they are assisted by so called Democrats who love money.

[upaloopa]

45. Yep that sucks big time.

I have possibly a 4 day weekend coming up
I need to go somewhere positive.
Tonight is not the end of the world for us.
Hopefully we will morn for awhile then get to work finding a solution.

[mathematic]

16. If promoting Democratic victories was the goal, they'd shut down DU

Half the people on this site hate half the democrats in office with the passion of a thousand burning suns.

[MaggieD]

20. So the TOS here are just BS?

I've been reading here since creation of the site. The site owners used to be actual Dems. Now it's just about money, it seems.

[JI7]

22. it's worse on DU because DU is supposed to be for those who support Democrats

we know the other site is an open forum for anyone which will always attract vile types .

[devils chaplain]

23. Discussia-what? n/t

[MaggieD]

26. DiscussionIST

That site being promoted here on the front page for the last 6 months.

[devils chaplain]

28. I know, just making a point that it's really not a popular place or one that you need to go to... nt

[MaggieD]

33. Every little bit hurts

And it REALLY hurts when someone who claims to be a dem creates freepervile junior. It sucks.

[GusBob]

25. i tend to agree

Clicks and likes and shares and retweets are where its at

Endless distractions about tan suits and nekkid celebrity hacks

[MaggieD]

29. Well it's a tell - your only purpose here is to be monetized

How about we all get together and create a non-profit that exists to actually support democrats?

[Fumesucker]

27. I have quite a few posts on Discussionist, over two thousand and I've had one hide

And that hide was for putting up a mirror post to a right wing post that got hidden, in other words I knew better.

It's like DU, if you remain civil it's rare that you get a post hidden.

But.. We have a lot of "tics" on DU that we don't even realize we have but they come across as uncivil in a mixed political environment. "Rethugs" is a big one, that gets hidden a lot.

Discussionist gives lefties a chance to get our message out to people who wouldn't normally give us a listen, it also gives lefties a way to gauge the effectiveness of different arguments to counter right wing arguments.

There are actually several subjects on Discussionist where right wingers put up no or almost no arguments and the left can run away with the subject.

[MaggieD]

31. If you only have one hide....

You are judged to be irrelevant and ineffective at debating by conservatives there. Either that or you side with them enough to be considered useful. That's it. Period. That site has been essentially taken over by conservatives. The only liberals that remain are due to the reasons stated above.

[Fumesucker]

34. How many posts do you have on Discussionist?

You can check my record here on DU3, I haven't had a hide in nearly two years now and I'm by no means a shrinking violet either here or there.

Keeping from getting posts hidden both here and there isn't that difficult, don't get emotional and don't get personal, most jurors are actually pretty reasonable.

[MaggieD]

37. Thousands and lots of emails

From liberals proving jury swarming by conservatives. Again, if you only have one hide chances are you are just bad at knocking down their stupid arguments. Anyone that has been reading there since the beginning can see that. Not rocket science.

[Fumesucker]

42. You've been registred on DU since 2001 and have under 300 posts

Maybe it's your own technique that could use some brushing up, it takes a lot of practice to be good at this.

[MaggieD]

44. That's because my post count got zero'ed out

In reality I have 10s of thousands.

[Codeine]

47. How does one have their post count zeroed out? nt

[MaggieD]

51. Ask Skinner. I'm sure he will explain

Oh wait, he doesn't answer email.

[Codeine]

55. I asked you. You made the claim.

Your statement has fuck-all to do with Skinner.

[MaggieD]

62. Ask him

I give no crap whether you believe me. I've been reading here every day for 13 years. Posting daily for 6 years prior to post reset. If you'd actually been here as long as me you wouldn't have to ask either me or Skinner.

[Codeine]

67. I've been here quite a long-ass time myself.

People know me and what I stand for. My bonafides are never questioned because my reputation is a known quantity (for good and ill, admittedly.) I'm unconvinced that the same can be said for you.

[MaggieD]

68. Not long enough apparently

Got any explanation yet for why the Dem party pays people to post to discussion boards if it doesn't matter? I guess you just think Democrats are stupid.

[The Straight Story]

40. Because we shouldn't live in a bubble - communicating with others not like us isn't a bad thing

I dislike republican rw crap as much as anyone, but we live in a diverse country where people have a lot of different ideas. It is better to engage and discuss than be like the republicans in 2012 and see everything from a bubble or cocoon.

When it comes to this election - the dems lost it because they have no coherent message and Reid is a crappy leader. The left in this country hasn't got a solid message and is all over the board - not to mention it's the midterms and the party of the president usually loses, so no shocker there.

I post a lot on DI, and yes - there are certainly trolls there who don't want to have discussions and just want to taunt like school aged kids. You can ignore them pretty easily. There are also people on the right I get along with there and have found a lot in common with off topic (of politics).

DI is a place for people of all parties to have discussions, even if sometimes they are juvenile and downright asinine. I don't agree with the far left on guns, but I do on gay marriage and the like. There are folks on the right who are fine with gay marriage as well - and there are any number of issues where common ground can be found.

As far as the jury system - I have seen more rw trolls get nailed than people on the left and seen both sides hide people who are outright abusive.

Hopefully this election is a wake up call to democrats to quit being so lame when it comes to coherency of ideas and messages and they actually start to coalesce and become a more unified party then one that has seemed so fractured over the years. Get a few core ideals, push them, show why dems are better at those things than republicans instead of trying to please everyone on every single thing (which is good to do in practice and legislation but it helps to, when the populace is a little short on attention, focus on some core points/ideals).

It ain't the end of the world. Parties switch power all the time, people get bored with those people, then switch it up. Been that way as long as I can remember.

[MaggieD]

43. You apparently haven't been to Discussionist

It's a bunch of conservative idiots who have no intention whatsoever of having rational discussion. All they do is post trolling bullshit and jury swarm liberals. So, it's just another forum for freepers to spew bullshit. That's all it is.

[Fumesucker]

50. He's one of the most prolific posters on Discussionist

Just because you can't keep from getting posts hidden over there doesn't mean everyone else is so inept.

[MaggieD]

52. If he is, he doesn't challenge the right wing BS there

That's for damn sure. Only wussy liberals survive in the face of the prolific right wing jury swarms there.

[Fumesucker]

56. "Wussy liberals"?

See, there's one of your problems, you're just asking to get juried on DU with that phrase...

[MaggieD]

58. I'll take my chances

But that's reality on Discussionist. Those are the liberals that can survive the con jury swarms there. They play the system like a fiddle. Where did you ever get the idea that conservatives play fair?

[Fumesucker]

65. Graham4AnythingHC45 drives them nuts and he's still there

He's really annoying even to me in some ways although I like him in others (he's very good at cultural references for one thing) , but he's never personal and never nasty.

Liberals ain't always playing fair either, you claim to have tens of thousands of posts on DU and don't know that?

If you were swapping PMs are you sure you weren't organizing alert swarming of your own? I think I have two PMs, one of which I haven't answered.

[MaggieD]

69. Yeah, they like to make fun of him

Poor guy. He's useful. Kind of like Colmes on Hannity and Colmes. Got anything else?

[Fumesucker]

74. They make fun of everyone they disagree with

Which is why some liberals have such a hard time of it, they overreact.

If you look carefully almost all the long time repeat socks are conservative other than librarygirl and she's more bizarre than political.

In case you don't know, socks are people who have been permanently banned and come back with another account or are running more than one account at the same time.

[MaggieD]

81. No they don't ... They jury swarm

... People that bring actual facts and kick their ass. I've got the emails from libs who sat on my juries and other lib posts to prove it. They will jury swarm each and every liberal that challenges their BS with facts.

If you're still allowed to post there it's because you don't challenge them or they find it easy to make fun of you. Just try kicking their ass with facts for one week and see what happens. I've seen it and so have lots of others.

Stop with the liberals must be "nice" Bullshit. It's the same as the media and it's reluctance to say Bush and company were flat out lying. Oh, yes they are lying, but we must not SAY that. Why the fuck not?

[Fumesucker]

85. They try to mock me but I'm better at it than they are..

Any Marine will tell you a good offense is the best defense.

http://www.discussionist.com/10165053

[MaggieD]

88. You're not exactly a Dem defender

And you certainly don't confrint their idiocy. I've read your posts all along and have never been able to decide if you're a democrat. I rest my case.

[Codeine]

91. Stop trolling.

Now Fumesucker isn't a Democrat?

[MaggieD]

93. Oh quit with the trolling nonsense

I've been reading at Discussionist since day one. S/he has never once confronted a con to support s Dem candidate. And that is how NOT to get hides there.

Clique whatever is irrelevant to cons there for that reason. Any strong liberal that defends Dem Policies will be jury swarmed there. Period.

[Fumesucker]

96. I'm against conservatives whatever the letter by their name might be

But I called a conservative a troll to his face and mocked him about as hard as I've seen anyone get it on DI and none of my posts get hidden.

Stick to the truth and you have power, try to defend lies and you will fail.

More liberals need to study Sun Tzu and Clausewitz.


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[MaggieD]

98. Don't rationalize it

You're defending a site that is created by DEMS that cons game, so the Dem in question can make money. And you're bragging about not getting hides when you specifically avoid confronting complete BS by cons.

I'm happy for your link, but you and I both know you rarely confront right wing BS there except very ambiguously.

[Fumesucker]

102. I'm not an expert on everything, no one is

I stick to what I know I can prove.

I called a wingnut a troll right to his face multiple times and never got hidden.

How many others can do that on DI, eh?

[MaggieD]

103. You know why?

Because you don't challenge the to their face. I've had THREE posts hidden for calling wing nuts trolls. Because they ARE trolling.

It's okay for you but not for me because they only jury swarm those that kick their ass in debates. You prove my point.

[The Straight Story]

61. Yeah. Uh, I have over 4500 posts there

Yes, there is a lot of silly trolling from a few folks and there are a lot of liberals who put them in their place when they post lies (like I do).

Some of the people I didn't get along with early on I actually have decent discussions now on a variety of things.

As long as we all just sit around hating each other we're not progressing but adding to division.

It's like some issues here on DU, people just absolutely get to the point of hating each other, alerting, stalking, etc instead of looking at the fact that we do have a lot of common ground. Du has gotten to the point that if you don't totally agree with x you are the enemy, a hater, etc and so on. I see just as much division and such here as there, just in different ways/issues.

It's hard to be all rah-rah when the very people in the party you support are labeling you everything from a gun nut to a sexist to a hater, it's like folks are trying to chase people off with purity tests - which is something I see the right do all too often as well (using the bible and fundie crap). If DU is supposed to be about democrats it sure as heck doesn't seem like it anymore, it is more about those who want people to be more and more closer to their agenda and belief system and if you deviate then screw you - even if you have voted dem straight tickets, raised funds for them, etc. The message is 'you aren't a real x' and folks just boot good dems to the curb and the larger issues of party and such are swept away in a flood of nuances in speech or how someone interprets an image/etc.

Odd how people like me are seen as loony leftists by the rwers on DI and I am seen as a nut/sexist/homophobe/libertarian/etc here - the more we attack fellow liberals and dems the further we push away the people we need the most.

DI isn't the problem, we know what to expect there, DU is more of an issue imho.

[MaggieD]

63. So you're more of a moderate or conservative dem

I rest my case. The cons on Discussionist find you useful. I know who you are, I think. Yes, you're useful to them. You do not challenge them. You never outright call them on their bullshit.

[The Straight Story]

71. Ah, so that's how it is. I see.

Dems vs dems. Labeling me a moderate/conservative over...well what?

Pro choice, pro gay marriage/adoption, pro pot, anti fracking, pro spending for infrastructure and social needs, anti increased spending on military, anti-war (but not against limited military use), pro era, against voter id. And I spent a lot of time battling the right and calling them out on the BS and usually have research to back it up.

But here, on a dem board, not liked, considered 'conservative', etc.

It is like being in a relationship with someone where no matter what you do they find you lacking and berate you. No problem with people disagreeing with me, but just because we don't always agree doesn't mean I don't think they are 'bad dems' and should be shunned/etc.

It's a party of many tents, we should respect that many views come with that and not everyone who does not agree with us on everything is a hater/sexist/racist/nut/conservative/etc.

[MaggieD]

73. You NEVER confront them

Do you? I know who you are. That's why you have a different name here than there but I know who you are. You never, ever confront a con there. That's why they don't jury swarm you.

And that is exactly how the system is set up there. For cons to game the system and for libs to cower in place - just as they have been taught.

Doesn't win elections.

[Fumesucker]

82. If by "confront" you mean "call names" then yeah, you're right I don't do that either

Most of the prolific posters over there are posting for the lurkers, direct confrontation doesn't really persuade the lurkers, arguing around the edges and gentle mocking is a lot more effective. You will virtually never change the mind of the person you are arguing with but there are usually at least five lurkers per poster and often a good many more.

Conservatives ~love~ confrontation, they thrive on it, why put them in an environment they like?

Keep things cool and analytical and they get flummoxed, for instance in a thread about snow across the South one con mentions the sun moving into a quiet phase so cooling so you point out that the biggest sunspot in twenty four years and thirty ninth largest in history is on the sun right now. Hilarity ensues as they bray further ignorance to the aether trying to defend an idiotic statement.

[MaggieD]

84. Oh please - that's baloney

They hide tons of liberal posts that have nothing whatsoever to do with calling anyone a name. If you think that's the reason you're not paying attention.

You know what I'd like? For us as a party to stop encouraging Dem voters and politicians to be such cowering wussies.

That's all. Is that so much to ask?

[Fumesucker]

87. Just because your techniqe doesn't work doesn't mean everone else is so inept.

http://www.discussionist.com/10165053

[MaggieD]

90. You're not a dem defender

Your posts there make that clear. You come off as actually afraid to support Democrats. I rest my case.

[Fumesucker]

100. I defend good policy and attack bad policy

And let's face it the Republican party is the mother-lode of bad policy.

I'm interested in what happens more than I am in who does it or what the letter by their name might be.

Conservatives lose on the facts on most subjects, the trick is that you'll never get them to admit that so you have to demonstrate it to the lurkers, direct confrontation of the sort you seek does not do that.

I think you have a fundamental misapprehension of the dynamic of a site like DI.

Conservatives are trying to throw up a squid cloud of emotion, fear, anger, dark humor and so on and your goal should be to ignore that and home in on the facts.

Has it occurred to you that if a conservative wanted to dominate Discussionist he might try to discourage liberals from going over there to post and serve on juries?

[MaggieD]

105. No you don't

You dance around your beliefs without taking a clear side. Face reality. You try to stay under the radar 90% of the time to avoid confrontation. Just like your wussy dem elders taught you.

[Codeine]

75. I rarely (read; never) agree with The Straight Story,

but he brings more energy, integrity, and intellectual honesty to DU in a single post than you've managed in your entire misdirected diatribe tonight.

[MaggieD]

77. Well read him on freepervile junior

And you will see how useful he is for the cons there.

[Codeine]

79. I don't waste my time there.

It's got an ugly interface and I spend enough time arguing stuff with the people I actually like here at DU. I need another discussion board like I need a hole in my head.

[MaggieD]

86. So why are you defending it?

I've apparently spent a lot of time arguing with someone defending a discussion board they know little about. Ugh.

[Codeine]

89. I'm not defending it. I'm saying it doesn't matter.

It's inconsequential. Utterly so. I've been there and it's a silly mess so I left.

I think you're silly to condemn Skinner because he has a message board where he lets the wrong kind of people talk. If it is that bad move on and find new pixilated pastures for your digital edification, like others before you have done.

[MaggieD]

92. Okay, so Democrats are stupid to pay people

... To post on discussion boards. You know more than they do. I disagree. Thanks for your input.

[Codeine]

95. I'd say whatever limited pittance was used for such activity

was as surely wasted as the ads for Republican candidates that Google generates here at DU.

[MaggieD]

99. Hey, but you can PAY to hide right wing ads here

And they wonder why we get disillusioned.

However, you still seem unaware of how dems have used all forms of online to engage the youth vote. I'm going to assume that's because you don't have much connection with that age group.

On the plus side the GOP shares your opinion. All the better for Democrats.

[Codeine]

101. I'm not that far out of that age group. I'm married to someone solidly in that age group.

Consequently I have a number of friends in that age group. They are, to a person, of sufficient intelligence to be able to distinguish between a source of online analysis and information and a message board for wingers.

Have no fear, Skinner's horrible, terrible, no-good, very-bad-site Discussionist will not impact the delicate minds of our young voters. They'll persevere despite the enormous obstacle that a handful of idiots snickering to each other in a dusty corner of the intarwebz will place in the way of the freedoms of our great republic.

[egduj]

48. You should boycott that site and any site associated with the owner.

Vote with your pocketbook.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

54. Looks like a legitimate topic for General Discussion to me. nt

[Cleita]

64. You don't have to go to Discussionist if you don't like it.

I haven't been there in months, however, I find it useful to get different views from the Freepers if I think I'm going to be discussing issues with the Fox News intelligentsia.

[MaggieD]

66. Doesn't matter if you or I go there

It's still a site for republicans to spew their bullshit - courtesy of the founder of DU. HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

[Cleita]

70. I think it's a good thing because we should know how the other side thinks.

The way things are now keeps us divided. Hopefully, we can find common ground and make a better world. I remember a time when we could come up with common sense solutions with conservatives on issues that affected us the same. Fifty years ago we mutually decided that nuclear war would be a disaster and our politicians came up with legislation to make sure it never happened. Now we are faced with global warming, something that affects all of us, and we can't seem to come together to make legislation to stop it because we are so divided.

btw. I'm not a middle of the roader but a far left Social Democrat, but I know that we do have to live with the other side so we need to communicate with them.

[MaggieD]

76. You can know how the other side thinks...

By reading freepervile and watching the news. You don't need a Democrat to sponsor it, and add her another venue for their spew. We have enough spew already. And they have gamed the jury system to shut down strong liberal voices. It's disgusting.

[Cleita]

78. There is an Ask the Administrators forum if you really feel this hot about it.

They are the people to yell at not us. And frankly, I would be thrown off Freeperville in two posts, so that wouldn't help me.

[Codeine]

80. Cleita at Freeperville.

Now THAT'S something I'd pay to watch. They'd never know what hit them.

[MaggieD]

83. They want to make money

They don't care.

[The Straight Story]

94. A dem making money off of conservatives. I don't have a problem with that :) (nt)

[MaggieD]

97. I think it's bullshit

... to claim to be a dem but provide freepervile junior to bash dems. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[uppityperson]

104. Locking. Repost in Ask The Administrator forum if you wish.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1259