Corporal punishment as discipline is not only ineffective, it's damaging.

[cali]

That makes intuitive sense. The first obvious lesson is "might makes right". You can get a desired result/behavior by physical intimidation. And being struck is inherently humiliating; it's an insult to the body, mind and spirit. Clearly, there's a difference between a swat on the behind to get a child's attention and whipping a kid with a switch, belt, slipper, wooden spoon, etc or putting him/her over your knee and spanking with your hand. And the bare butt spanking/paddling thing? sick.

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2002/06/spanking.aspx

http://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families_and_Youth/Facts_for_Families/Facts_for_Families_Pages/Physical_Punishment_105.aspx

http://www.nospank.net/gershoff.pdf

http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2014/04/study-parents-hit-children-for-trivial-reasons.html/

[Shrike47]

1. I can only agree. And due to my work, I've seen 2 cases where the child was beaten to death.

In both cases, the parent viewed the beating as discipline and some time and planning went in to the event, so it wasn't a snap reaction. In one case, the other children in the facility were required to watch.

Beating a child will not result in changing the child's behavior.

[Louisiana1976]

107. I hope the parents who beat their children to death received consequences for having done so.

That's terrible.

[sakabatou]

2. I remember reading an article years ago that came to the conclusion about...

something like it and doing harm.

[Laelth]

3. Hear, hear! k&r n/t

-Laelth

[SunSeeker]

4. Yes, studies have been concluding this for decades.

Thank you for reminding everyone.

Beatings beget beatings. It teaches all the wrong lessons and perpetuates domestic violence.

There are effective nonviolent methods of discipline. Just the threat of taking his iPhone away makes my son stop in his tracks.

[awoke_in_2003]

137. I got to stand in the corner...

the point got across. It isn't fun staring at the wall when every once else is having fun. I guess that is probably the 1970's version of taking the iPhone.

[SunSeeker]

139. LOL. Yes, but according to my son, not having his iPhone is WAY worse than a time out. nt

[awoke_in_2003]

141. Maybe now...

but back in the old days when we played with dirt and sticks the corner was torture Damn kids today are too spoiled, and won't get the hell off of my lawn

[ColesCountyDem]

5. My parents were ahead of their time.

I remember my dad saying that if the only way for you to get your point across effectively to a child was to hit the child, you'd already lost the argument.

[cali]

7. He was right.

I'm gobsmacked by some of the comments of DUers re Peterson. I've been told "you're burning him at the stake". He loves his children". He didn't realize he was hurting the child and on and on. A significant number of DUers appear to find whipping a child with a switch a legitimate exercise in parental authority.

[deafskeptic]

47. Yes, and that always dismay me.

I wouldn't ever use a belt or slap my own children. I have not forgotten the effect it had on me and I wouldn't want my children to suffer that.

[Pisces]

135. I said I did not agree with corporeal punishment, and that maybe parenting and anger classes would

benefit Peterson and his children more than putting him in jail. Supervised visits etc. I saw the pics and do not condone what
he did. I think we need to teach people parenting skills in high school maybe even junior high. Many do not get the right
modeling at home and at some point the cycle needs to be broken. Raising children, especially boys without their father
is also a terrible idea. This boy will think he is to blame for his father's disappearance. And how ill incarceration affect this family financially. Will these children now be raised in a worse neighborhood? Will they now be surrounded by drugs and
violence on another scale without their father to support them???

Do we have an obligation to make sure that people know spanking does not work? There is no license or test you have to take
before you have a child. There should be some life coaching a long the way.

You are purposely taking comments out of context. No one I have seen has supported hitting a child with a switch, stick or
any object. But if that makes you feel superior, keep on distorting people's positions.

[Cleita]

6. I would add verbal abuse to that.

That's telling kids they are no good and many other shitty things parents say to kids because they are angry. All it does is undermine their confidence and self esteem. I believe these kids often grow up to be the victims of the abusers.

[cali]

8. Yes. thanks for that important reminder, Cleita.

[deafskeptic]

49. Yes, that too. It's even more destructive than spanking! n/t

[Louisiana1976]

109. Right on! Verbal abuse (the memory of it) can even cause anxiety in later life.

[laundry_queen]

145. Absolutely!

I'd expand it to include things said not in anger. Because of my upbringing I had a therapist tell my that my parents undermined me so often that my instincts were broken. I no longer was able to see red flags around abusers, because my parents often played mind games with me that made me doubt my own reality. I was invalidated so often, I no longer was able to even realize my own feelings. It's a big part of why I ended up with an emotionally abusive sociopath for a spouse (now my ex). Simple invalidation of a child's feelings and experiences can cause this, as you said, because it undermines confidence and self-esteem.

[Cleita]

147. So sorry. I hope this is all water under the bridge for you now even

though I'm sure the memories still sting.

[deafskeptic]

148. I have the same problem as well.

I've tended to date BFs who are either narcissistic or AsPDs. I believe that I was taught to ignore red flags so I have to be aware of that so I don't repeat this pattern.

[Strat54]

9. I was horrified, while living in Orange Park, FL

...I was horrified that I actually had to specifically sign a paper that prohibited my daughter's school from using corporal punishment on her.

She's a good kid, and I never expected it to be used on her anyhow, but I said HELL NO!!!

What was even more sad, was the number of her friends whose "Christian" parents viewed beatings as something they needed to do on a weekly basis. "Oh, you've done something to deserve a spanking I'm sure."

What kind of sick MuthaFuckers plan to take time every Friday to beat their child??

And what kind of religion encourages that??

Fucking psychopathic child abusers. Every last one of them!!

I am so glad I don't live there anymore!!

[JCMach1]

13. There is a whole 'Christian' Spare the Rod movement

[Blue_In_AK]

28. Jerry Prevo, of our horrible mega church Anchorage Baptist Temple,

is of that persuasion. I remember accidentally turning on one of his Sunday services on TV a few years ago when he was actually telling his "sheep" that they would be failures as parents if they didn't physically discipline their children when they misbehaved. He has also been the biggest obstacle to Anchorage adopting equal rights ordinances , as he is an inveterate homophobe. He's one sick f****r.

[Pathwalker]

33. Except shepards don't beat their sheep. This is cultural ignorance

at it's worst. The "rod" is used to gently prod the sheep in the direction you wish it to go, the "crook" is to recuse them if they fall down an embankment. You don't beat sheep because it traumatizes them so severely they go insane and try to harm themselves by rammimg head first into a wall, rock, or running themselves off the nearest cliff. Also, when they die that way, they release a chemical that destroys the meat. I learned this from my cousin who is a sheep farmer. Apparently, sheep are easily frightened and easily traumatized...like small children.

[Blue_In_AK]

36. That makes sense.

I'm sure it's not the only Biblical reference that he has misinterpreted, and yet he brings hundreds into his so-called "sanctuary" twice every Sunday, once on Wednesday night, not to mention all the young minds he's stifling in his so-called "school."

I really despise that guy. Other Alaskans on this board will agree with me.

[Pathwalker]

39. Another misconception is "The eye of the needle" as in

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." Most people nowadays think it talks about an actual needle, when it refers to the entrance of the old walled city of Jerusalem. During the day, the very large doors were opened, so heavily laden camels could travel into and out of the city. At sundown, these doors, the Needle, were shut, and one could only enter through the Eye, only large enough for one person at a time. The only way a camel could enter was to lose all it was was carrying and get down on it's knees. I think it makes more sense than an actual needle, too.

[Blue_In_AK]

40. Well, yes, because then NO rich person could get to heaven,

and that seems kind of unfair -- not that I believe in heaven or hell. If he sheds his "stuff," he might stand a chance.

[Pathwalker]

46. My point is that so many of the things people think is true,

based on Bible verses, is simply wrong, because we are ignorant of the culture from ancient times, as well as farming practices. One is fairly benign, but the one about "Spare the rod" has harmed so many for far too long. In this case, the ignorance is very dangerous.

[Blue_In_AK]

50. I totally agree.

Proverbs are always nice to trot out whenever you want to justify things, as well as Leviticus.

[Jamastiene]

56. And for a lot of them, Leviticus is heavily annotated and has asterisks

that only they can see. Those asterisks are beside every part except the part about not lying with mankind as with womankind (the part they beat gay people over the head with). All of the rest of Leviticus has asterisks beside each verse for most of the ones who seem to dwell on that book of the Bible. Apparently, all of the asterisks lead to something that says just disregard all the rest. It's only wrong to be gay. Eat all the shellfish you want, wear all the mixed linens you want, and eat all the hares you want (apparently, that is an abomination too, according to one verse in the Bible, at least, I think I remember that part being in Leviticus), just don't be gay.

[treestar]

114. That's fascinating.

Never thought of it that way or knew that. People who think they know the bible don't always know what they are talking about, as they don't know much about the life then.

[BlindTiresias]

116. Not surprising

There has been a movement to pervert the teachings of Christ and the larger beliefs of Christianity into their exact opposite by evil people.

[edgineered]

125. I suspect it is a xtian movement doing it.

[BlindTiresias]

126. Undoubtedly

And they are right wing, too.

[awoke_in_2003]

138. "And what kind of religion encourages that??"

all of the Abrahamic ones.

[mopinko]

10. it screams to a child- nobody care about you. nobody care how you feel.

or what you think or say. a terrible message that will cripple that child's empathy for life.

i would ESPECIALLY add- never smack a kid in the head. never, ever, ever.
shouldnt need to say never put a kid's head through a wall, but apparently that needs to be said as well.
but with the growing science of traumatic brain injury, this is the worst form of abuse i can imagine. my own child's life was changed by a brain injury. one so subtle it wasnt detected until she was 21, tho the accident occurred when she was 4.
she is a bright and amazing person anyway.
but in hindsight, the trail of damaged potential is just heartbreaking.

if you would do this to a child, any child, let alone your own, there is no hole too deep to throw you down.

[Scootaloo]

31. I found this blog post, and it ties in with what you're saying

She, the child, sees what's coming and starts crying. As the adults up the volume so does she, she's crying and emitting a low wail at the same time. "I DON'T WANT MY EARS PIERCED."

Her mother leans down and speaks to her, quietly but strongly, the only words we could hear were '... embarrassing me.'

We heard, then, two small screams, when the ears were pierced.

Little children learn early and often that 'no doesn't mean no.'

http://davehingsburger.blogspot.com/2014/07/no-means-force.html

[mopinko]

35. yup.

i confess i am of the generation of seen and not heard and all that crap, tho i was not that way with my kids.
evolve already people. show young children the meaning of respect. not that you never override their wants. but jeebus. they arent slaves. they are people.

[Voice for Peace]

53. This is a painfully true and important point

Little children learn early and often that 'no doesn't mean no.'

[AnalystInParadise]

11. That's one opinion

Not one I agree with.

I am a better person because my parents were tough on me. I not only believe that, but have passed those lessons on to my children and ironically they say the same thing. My wife and I are credited with making them better people because of what we did when they misbehaved. They are all grown up now and my oldest just had her first and she is planning to keep the family tradition going.

[cali]

12. No. It's decidedly NOT one opinion. read the links. It's the consensus of

psychiatrists, psychologists, pediatricians, and public health experts, based on decades of studies. that's hardly one opinion.

and you don't know that you're a better person because your parents were tough on you- not that you specified what that entailed. there is no way of knowing that.

My son is 28. He is a fine, kind person who never got in trouble- not at school, not with the law. He was a high spirited, sensitive- and strong willed kid. I didn't use any corporal punishment.

[AnalystInParadise]

14. Great

it is the opinion of some. I will support any parent that disciplines their child with corporal punishment. As long as they don't cross a line into child abuse, I will always support them and always chide anyone who says we are doing it wrong. I don't tell you how to raise your child, don't you dare tell me how to raise mine. <-----that's what I did.

[cali]

16. still wrong. Not some. The vast majority of experts.

I will always "chide" those who make false claims in order to support hitting children.

I'll say what I please here. It's a discussion board. I posted the facts regarding what studies have shown about the sick, ugly practice of systematically hitting children to discipline them.

If you don't like it, that's just too bad.

[AnalystInParadise]

25. Well then I see

a lot of fun discussions between you and I in the future. I trust my children to tell me the truth. My wife and I both raised them right.

Thankfully people like you can't tell me and others what to do with our children. Small blessings from God apparently.

[morningfog]

58. Actually, people like us (society) do tell you that you can't beat your kids. Thankfully.

We (society) make it against the law.

[AnalystInParadise]

61. I don't beat them

a swat on the ass is not beating them. I am pleased you have no way to control me like you wish you could.

[morningfog]

62. It is battery.

[phil89]

143. "a swat on the ass is not beating them"

Uhh, yes, it is. It is disgusting and abusive. Hopefully some kind of authority will become involved who can protect your kids.

[Brickbat]

32. What's the line between child abuse and corporal punishment?

[AnalystInParadise]

41. You tell me

since you seem to care so much.

[Brickbat]

146. I asked because you seem to know.

[Scootaloo]

34. That line is already crossed the moment they apply physical force to the child.

Tell me. What sort of things warranted adults pummeling children in your household, growing up? When your parents hit you, did they threaten to hit you more if you cried? Did they carry through on it? Did they hit you more if you squirmed? Didyou ever make the mistake of trying to defend yourself against the beating?

You're just paying your own abuse forward.

[AnalystInParadise]

45. Writing a hot check to the police

and getting arrested (I was 16). Setting a small homemade bomb off in the high school. (this was well before Columbine when in-school suspension was the punishment), Underage sex with the mayor's daughter in the football stadium and getting caught.....I would need to ask my mom and dad what the other incidents were, I don't remember, there were so many.

And no they never threatened to hit me again if I cried. They popped me once or twice, and it was done. My dad would slap me in the face once or twice and it was done. I never squirmed, I knew what was coming, took my punishment and it was over. Why would I defend myself? I was wrong and had punishment coming. I did the exact same to my children and they thanked me for it recently, because they both turned out better than my sisters kids who were never hit and are all in jail, in rehab or worse.

I was not abused, my kids were not abused, my grandkids will not be abused. But thank you for trying to tell me I was.

[morningfog]

59. This explains so much of your twisted world view. I appreciate your honesty.

[AnalystInParadise]

63. Hahahaha

thank you for judging me, it just proves what kind of person you are.

[morningfog]

65. I'm fine with that. I don't support physical abuse of anyone, especially not children.

How old were they when you started hitting them?

[AnalystInParadise]

68. 12

12 was the age in my house, my dad's house when he was a kid, and according to both my kids the age they will start.

[morningfog]

70. I feel sorry for all four generations. The cycle of violence and abuse perpetuates.

[morningfog]

77. You took delight in it, huh?

That is some sick shit.

[AnalystInParadise]

80. Where on earth did I say that

we are a happy loving family that has true happiness......Man project much?

[morningfog]

82. You suggested true happiness depends on beating your kids.

[BlindTiresias]

101. Dude, what the hell?

Are you a cenobite or something? Whipping children is true happiness?

You need to get a hold of yourself and really look at what you are posting, it looks insane.

[etherealtruth]

120. I have to agree with you

....I would just substitute the word DERANGED for the word INSANE

That aside .... WTF is that poster posting ...

[treestar]

118. I don't believe you

your kids may not break the law and they may have good jobs. But they'll also have psychiatric bills and emotional problems.

[BlindTiresias]

122. Well...

Judging from his own posting regarding the efficacy of whipping children and preventing criminal behavior they are probably the same kind of high functioning sociopath he has shown himself to be.

[kwassa]

93. This is one of the sickest posts I've ever read on DU

I pity anyone who did not whip their kids, they missed out on true happiness.

[BlindTiresias]

105. I'm saving that post for posterity.

[morningfog]

112. He's finally being honest.

It is entirely consistent with his posting history.

[intaglio]

66. So according to you beatings that effected you

were administered to you as an adolescent so by your own account any corporal punishment you received as a child had no effect on your youthful behaviour. What is more, by your own account, the beatings you did receive had no influence on other bad behaviour.

Essentially the abuse you suffered had no effect and I would suggest that later maturity owes nothing to your beatings and everything to your later ethical senses.

[AnalystInParadise]

72. I was not abused

Oh no it had an effect, all three of those events happened in the same month, the month I got my license. I never misbehaved again. Except for the things I did in Iraq

[intaglio]

78. Sorry but it was abuse - gross physical abuse

And as for it all occurring in one month other bad behaviours that attracted similar thrashing will have happened throughout your early life.

[AnalystInParadise]

83. I disagree

fortunately your opinion has no bearing on my life, my kids life or my grandkids life. Your opinion is your own, but fortunately it has no power or meaning in my life.

[BlindTiresias]

110. yeah

Wouldn't want to interfere with the "true happiness" you receive from whipping children.

[treestar]

119. So now you claim to have gone to Iraq

What did you do wrong there? And why did you do anything wrong there? You had been raised right, according to you, so by adulthood you should not have done bad things. You jumped the shark here. Shouldn't have added that about Iraq, you thought it made you look cool, but it actually unwound your claims.

[BlindTiresias]

92. So it had no effect then?

Confirms the findings of modern research, at least.

[cali]

100. hitting a kid across the face is abusive and plain wrong

my 28 year old son, 6'2" 190 pounds, avid (and beautiful downhill skier), white water kayaker, chef, and all around good guy. I never hit him to discipline him and he was an active, strong willed kid with a ton of energy. He never got so much as as detention in school. The only fight he was ever in was one he tried to break up and he's never been in trouble with the law.

Maybe your bad behavior as a teen was because your parents did stuff like strike you across the face.

[Jamastiene]

140. If it worked so great, then why did you keep getting into so much trouble? n/t

[morningfog]

57. There is no line. All battery is abuse. If you hit your kids, you abused them.

[AnalystInParadise]

64. Thank god

I don't live in your world. I would be embarrassed. But thank you for being honest.

[morningfog]

67. You are the embarassment. Welcome to the 21st century. You are in the minority

in thinking that it is okay to hit children. Shame on you. How small you must be to hit a child.

[AnalystInParadise]

74. Shame on you

for trying to tell me how to be a parent. Like I said Thank god I am not subject to your "unique" parenting viewpoint.

[morningfog]

76. If you feel you have to hit your kid, you failed as a parent.

[AnalystInParadise]

79. I don't feel that way

and thankfully you have no way to influence me or my kids or my grandkids. They will be raise our way and you can do nothing to stop us. Thank Goddess!

[morningfog]

81. Children Who Are Spanked Have Lower IQs, New Research Finds

Children who are spanked have lower IQs worldwide, including in the United States, according to new groundbreaking research by University of New Hampshire professor Murray Straus. The research results will be presented Friday, Sept. 25, 2009, at the 14th International Conference on Violence, Abuse and Trauma, in San Diego, Calif.

"All parents want smart children. This research shows that avoiding spanking and correcting misbehavior in other ways can help that happen," Straus says. "The results of this research have major implications for the well being of children across the globe."

"It is time for psychologists to recognize the need to help parents end the use of corporal punishment and incorporate that objective into their teaching and clinical practice. It also is time for the United States to begin making the advantages of not spanking a public health and child welfare focus, and eventually enact federal no-spanking legislation," he says.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090924231749.htm

I know it's too late for you, but perhaps you can help your grandchildren. I hope this helps to educate you.

[AnalystInParadise]

86. Didn't stop me from

getting a Masters Degree and my dream job in the IC, my wife from working at SeaWorld, my kids both pursuing their advanced degrees either. So I think we are all going to be ok.

[morningfog]

87. Cool story.

[BlindTiresias]

96. Anecdote =/= data

But you knew that.

[intaglio]

71. Unfortunately you live in our world

A world that is starting to see that physical abuse is useless - a fact you have confirmed by your own account of your adolescence.

[AnalystInParadise]

75. I see it differently

Fortunately you can't control me, control my kids, or my grandkids....small blessings I suppose.

[morningfog]

84. But you think you can control children through physical battery. Big man.

[AnalystInParadise]

88. Actually my wife is

the discipline, I was rarely called in. And my kids are in college now, no need for me to do anything to do, they are adults now.

[morningfog]

89. You mean you are against hitting adults? I guess it's tougher to hit people your own size.

[intaglio]

91. Unfortunately for your children (and grandchildren?!)

you can effect them, damage their lives and pass on the legacy of pointless damage and possible self gratification by causing harm: oh, please don't tell me that "it hurts you worse than it hurts them" even in terms of emotion that is a lie.

Did you let your father or mother abuse your children? If so you should really seek some assistance to deal with the cultural of abuse in your family.

I know you do not see it as abuse but nearly every other person does see it in those terms

[morningfog]

85. He's stuck in a cycle of violence.

Or he's flaming.

[BlindTiresias]

113. "True Happiness"

[Feral Child]

121. Call it a drive by.

I'm not going to bicker with you about this.


I only want to say that you have my sympathy and pity, as do your children and theirs. You've continued a culture of fear and revenge that stretches back no one knows how far and that will continue into the future.


I successfully broke that awful chain in my lineage, and I hope it doesn't restart in the future.

[morningfog]

55. You beat your kids?

[Tribalceltic]

15. Positive reinforcement works wonders

Negative does NOT!

[Oktober]

19. Except when it does...

[Tribalceltic]

26. Which is never

18 years working with behavioral adults, I have never witnessed negative reinforcement work. I have seen it do damage, sometimes irreversible to many.

Those who claim otherwise are in denial

[Oktober]

27. Neat...

I've seen it work many times on both adults and children...

A wide spectrum of experience it seems.

[Strat54]

38. This is just like climate change denial.

Decades of studies. Stacks of research. Reproducible empirical experiments with both humans and animals. Entire branches of science dedicated to the FACT that positive reinforcement is the only way to encourage a desired behavior and negative punishment has very little predictable desired effect on extinguishing undesired behaviors.

The science is clear!

So when your child talks back and digs his/her heals in, do you just haul off and crack them a good one? That'll teach them who's boss.

Even industrial psychologists know that the way to extinguish undesired behavior is to determine the reward that the person perceives for that behavior and remove the reward while rewarding the desired behavior.

The question is, what is it about hitting your child that is a reward to you, you sick motherfucker.

[Oktober]

42. I think you've obviously misunderstood....

... As you seem to think that everyone who doesn't directly align with your parenting philosophy is a 'sick motherfucker'.

There are so many assumptions in your post it's difficult to know where to start.

I'll check on you later to see if you can behave civilly and then maybe we can talk.

[Iggo]

54. .

[intaglio]

97. You have? is this as a professional or as an amateur?

Care to give us any examples? or are you extracting this claim from your nether regions?

[BlindTiresias]

123. yeah?

Maybe you can educate us on the nature of True Happiness?

[Oktober]

124. I don't think anyone was talking about 'True Happiness' ™ ©

The conversation was about whether or not positive reinforcement is the only way to gain results or if negative reinforcement can ever yield something positive as well.

[PosterChild]

17. Clearly, there's a difference....

Clearly, there's a difference between a swat on the behind to get a child's attention...

So you are not against ALL corporal punishment? There is room for parental judgement as to what is and is not acceptable and effective punishment?

[cali]

21. I don't think that a swat on the behind to get a child's attention is punishment

it's to get the child's attention. That said, I believe it should be used sparingly. I'm against corporal punishment, but I certainly see the difference between a couple of swats on the rear, and spanking/whipping as routine discipline.

[PosterChild]

29. Sure there is a difference...

RE: I certainly see the difference between a couple of swats on the rear, and spanking/whipping as routine discipline.

And there is a difference between depriving a kid of desert and depriving him of proper nutrition. And there is a difference between making a kid stay in his room and locking him in a cage.

In other words, there is a difference between reasonable, normative degrees of punishment and child abuse. Other than this fairly obvious point, I'm not sure what the concern is with corporal punishment. The whole issue seems a bit sanctimonious to me.

[cali]

30. the issue arose out of the Adrian Peterson business and my observation of the number of people

here who endorse corporal punishment. Sorry, but the line between "reasonable" corporal punishment and child abuse can be a thin one.

I refer you back to the links in the OP. There are ways of disciplining children without hitting them.

sanctimonious, my ass.

[PosterChild]

43. Refering back to one of the links in the OP ...

"In a reply to Gershoff, researchers ... write that because the original studies in Gershoff's meta-analysis included episodes of extreme and excessive physical punishment, her finding is not an evaluation of normative corporal punishment."

"There are ways of disciplining children without hitting them." True. But "a swat on the behind to get a child's attention" or "a couple of swats on the rear" are not among them. When you hit a child, you do, indeed hit a child. Are you against corporal punishment or aren't you?

[cali]

48. I'm against it. I didn't use it, but that doesn't mean I can't see the difference between

a swat on the rear and systematic use of corporal punishment as a means of discipline. I think hitting children sends the obvious message that you can get what you want by hitting. I also think many kids are humiliated by being hit and learn a bad kind of fear.

[morningfog]

69. A swat is battery.

[cali]

90. In no jurisdiction in this country is a swat on the rear end of a child by a parent considered

battery. I'm against corporate punishment obviously, but I think distinctions have to be made.

[morningfog]

95. It is though. If you did it to an adult, it is battery.

It is no different against a child. In fact, it is much worse.

There is no need to make a distinction. There is never a reason to hit a child, not even a "swat."

[cali]

103. no, it not always abuse. yes there is a need to make a distinction

just out of curiosity do you have kids?

[morningfog]

111. Yes, and I would never ever dream of swatting, hitting, striking them.

I would never hit anyone, but cannot even fathom hitting a child. It is beyond comprehension to me.

I look forward to the day when society recognizes it and no longer tolerates battery of children.

31 nations have a total ban, the civilized world is moving in that direction:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/11/08/country.comparisons.corporal.punishment/index.html

Delaware has banned it as well:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/family/item/13005-delaware-law-bans-parents-from-spanking-their-kids

[cali]

132. seems like the Delaware law is a bit fuzzy:

from your link and the creator of the legislation:

Biden insists that the law does not prohibit spanking. “This will not do anything to interfere with a parent’s right or ability to parent as they see fit, but it also makes it clear that if you abuse a child in any way, shape or form, we’re going to have a statute that we’re going to be able to use to protect kids,” he stated.

and though it wasn't my thing. I know terrific parents with great kids who administered the light swat to the fanny here and there- quite a few of them. I have an abhorrence of physical discipline but I don't think a swat on the ass of a kid who, for instance makes a dash for the street, is child abuse.

[Oktober]

18. Feel free to parent how you please...

The problem comes when folks try to force their philosophies onto others.

[Savannahmann]

22. Except it really is our problem too.

You see, children who are abused are nine times more likely to turn to crime, which is a burden on the society as a whole as we have to pay for the trial, the incarceration, and someone pays for the crime for a long time with mental scars.

http://www.childhelp.org/pages/statistics

Many of those who are so abused become abusers later in life, psychologically unable to come to the conclusion that their parents did the wrong thing in abusing them with such punishments.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/01/24/science/sad-legacy-of-abuse-the-search-for-remedies.html

I could go on. But what you do in your home, affects others, sometimes years later, and that makes it the business of society.

[cali]

24. +1

[kwassa]

98. +1000. Some people have a fucked-up idea of proper parenting.

They only know what was done to them, in reality. They then do that with their own kids .....

and that is how abuse gets transmitted from generation to generation.

[cali]

23. I'm not forcing my philosophy on anyone, but I have every right to express my opinion.

Hitting children is not effective discipline and it's frequently damaging. We have decades of studies demonstrating just that.

If I had my druthers, I wouldn't outlaw spanking- though I think it's a lousy way of disciplining a child- but I would outlaw hitting a child with a switch or belt or shoe or paddle.

I have every right to speak out. You do realize that this is a discussion board, right? And that one of its purposes is to provide a forum for people to express their opinions.

[mopinko]

37. force people to treat other people decently you mean?

you mean the people who hold our future in their hands are on their own, free to make grievous errors for which they will repent in lonely leisure? we should not try to hold out some education and help?
and we should not speak for the least of us?

you sure you are in the right place?

[Oktober]

44. What does that even mean?

[kwassa]

99. It means you treat your children with respect, and love.

[Oktober]

108. Absolutely....

... and none of that is exclusionary to what we are talking about.

[kwassa]

127. Beating a child is neither respect or love.

But you knew that.

[Oktober]

128. No one reasonable is talking about beating children...

The ability think beyond the binary will serve you well in such a serious discussion.

[kwassa]

133. and what makes you think your position is reasonable?

[Oktober]

134. Untold generations of fully functional adults?

[kwassa]

136. What is your position anyways, on the question of hitting your child?

Is it ever justified, in your opinion?

[Oktober]

142. It's well laid out in a myriad of other posts...

Many within this thread.

Feel free to peruse at your leisure...

[mopinko]

106. if you dont know, i doubt i can explain.

enjoy your stay.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

129. Here's a hint.

The kids you beat today will be the adults who take care of you when you're old and feeble. And they're likely going to be what you make of them. If you teach them that 'whacking' someone makes them behave, they're more likely to 'whack' your older self when, out of senility or dementia, you start doing things wrong.

[Oktober]

131. Kids who beat their elderly parents...

... faced greater challenges in life than a whack on the butt when they try to sneak off and run into traffic.

[Savannahmann]

20. I don't know.

I'm thinking that the Rethugs would improve if they were pilloried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillory

I'm betting they would be pelted with lots of animal excrement from the crowd.

[Jamastiene]

51. Spare the rod is THE rule down here in the Bible Belt.

At least, it is in my hometown. It just makes for meaner adults. The kids start doing whatever the fuck they want to do anyhow, up to and including perpetrating outright cruelty to animals and others. Beating them only teaches them fighting and violence as a way of life. It teaches them nothing and they grow up to become abusers themselves. It's a nasty vicious cycle and needs to be broken. It is better to teach a kid why something they did was wrong than to just smack them and hope that teaches them not to do that thing again. The smacking them thing just makes them meaner. They do whatever the fuck they want to do anyhow after that. It just makes them mean....doing more and more cruel and hideous things as time goes by. Corporal punishment for children is barbaric, although that might be insulting to the barbarians of the world. They aren't even that bad. It's a fucking stupid AND abusive way to raise a child.

[Pathwalker]

52. Please read post #33. They are ignorant they way they use that

Bible verse. Shepherds don't EVER hit their sheep.

[Jamastiene]

60. Of course, it is.

It is extremely cruel too, how it is used to justify some serious cases of child abuse. One family here in my hometown locked a kid outside on a below freezing night because he wet the bed. He died in the dog house. They cited spare the rod as their reason.

Yeah, I don't see sheep responding too well to cruelty and physical abuse. I see your larger point, but that is not how most people where I live would ever interpret that verse.

[phil89]

144. If you're using a book of abuse, slavery and misogyny

for guidance on how to raise kids, it's not going to end well. People should look at empirical data, not mythology.

[BlindTiresias]

94. Love these threads

Excellent honeypots for degenerates and sick fucks to out themselves.

[kwassa]

102. It is very revealing, isn't it?

It also makes me wonder if there is a correlation with gun ownership, as well ...

[cali]

104. I don't love these threads. they make me a bit heartsick.

[newcriminal]

115. I have 5 beautiful children that have never been in any kind of trouble,

and have never ever been spanked.

[BlindTiresias]

117. Unfortunate

Missed out on some "true happiness"!

[NaturalHigh]

130. Agreed.