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[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

1. But see, it took them 3 whole minutes to get

more guys in with riot shields to deal with the machete wielder.

It's FAR more efficient to simply shoot them dead in a few seconds.

(I shouldn't have to tag this, but just in case...)

[Ino]

2. ...not to mention a lot more fun!

It's a rush to gun someone down!

[hifiguy]

19. I'd bet this is an utterly true statement

when applied to a lot of US cops.

[Enthusiast]

25. No doubt.

[Maedhros]

58. And some concealed carry advocates. [n/t]

[frylock]

7. time is money

[treestar]

27. That's the main difference between this second video and the Kijames (sp?) case

Those cops pulled up, got out, the guy got on the wall and they shot him.

These cops aren't afraid to back away (you know and be called cowards or such stupid shit). Several of them backed away from him. Then he stayed away from them with his machete and none of them approached him any closer. It took a lot more time.

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. "AREN'T AFRAID TO BACK AWAY" Crucial Crucial Crucial Crucial Crucial observation!!!!

I've been thinking about this since the Powell killing. Why not simply retreat? Why not simply step back, move backward, retreat, defuse by retreat? Why not?

Britain - which our friendly neighborhood gunners tell us - is absolutely AWASH in knife crime, had ZERO police killings last year. How? How is it possible? Because, as you say, the police are not afraid to back away, to retreat. Their first response - it's a TRAINED repsonse, make no mistake - is not to stand their ground and fire away, but to cede ground, to retreat. Which seems to be just fine.

We have a fucked up culture in this country, a coward culture, really, and you nailed it exactly: the fear of retreat. On the Stand Your Ground issue, dozens of people flailed around on this board insisting that sovereign people have no legal duty to retreat, like EVER, as if it is a degradation of your very being to do so.

Fine, fine, we get it. No legal duty to retreat. Fine.

But what about an ethical duty to retreat?

[uppityperson]

36. Exactly, backing up is easy to do but why the hell don't they? argh

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

45. Wow. Yes. A thousand times, YES!!

It's the bullshit macho thing. And, as you said, it's not what they think it is. It's cowardly.

[Uncle Joe]

71. I couldn't agree more, alcibiades_mystery.

[Not Sure]

3. "May I suggest using the nightstick, officer?"

I know it's hard to believe these days, but guns used to be a last resort.

[99th_Monkey]

4. No, nightsticks are only good for beating on peaceful protestors.

[ybbor]

52. One of the greatest movie lines of all time!

I actually said that to some officers outside a Grateful Dead show who we're dealing with a not so cooperative Head who was obviously feeling no pain. My friends and I had a very good laugh as we were also of feeling no pain variety.

Oh memories...

[truth2power]

5. First of all, courtesy, my intent is not to attack you, personally...

but I'm sick and effing tired of hearing, over and over, that the police have a "tough job" or words to that effect.

A lot of jobs, in this world, are "tough" in one way or another. A lot of jobs require split-second decision making. But people who do those jobs are usually able to engage in critical thinking. Not so, the police in Ferguson, apparently.

From my observation, there's no "tough", whatsoever, to the job Ferguson cops do.

Plan A: Haul out your firearm immediately upon arriving at the scene and shoot the Hell the person DEAD. There is no plan B.

This job could be done by an eight year old. They should hire eight year olds and give them a gun. Could pay them minimum wage.

See? Everyone benefits.

[frylock]

8. tree trimmers have a higher mortality rate than the police..

would we be as accepting of a tree trimmer or roofer telling someone to "get on the fucking sidewalk," and then gunning them down if they didn't comply?

[truth2power]

20. This meme of police having a toughjob (poor babies)...

and that being an excuse for blowing people away, is a canard. We should stop buying into it.

Yes, a tree trimmer has a tough job. I've had large trees trimmed on my property.
They can't just climb up and start sawing away. I notice they carefully decide which limbs to remove and in what order. Otherwise they become ex-tree trimmers.

Even though they're well-compensated, surgeons have tough jobs. I imagine that things can sometimes get really dicey during surgery. Critical thinking is required, and if a surgeon is responsible for killing a patient, do people say, "Aww, he has a tough job"?

Cops who find policing too stressful should stop whining and seek other employment.

[treestar]

30. There is a big difference

It's the conflicts with other people that make it more stressful.

The fatality rate is one thing, but overall, it's got to be harder to deal with criminals than with trees. No one's whining. But at least admit it can't be all that easy.

[truth2power]

38. Sorry, but no excuse...

First of all, not everyone an officer encounters is a criminal. Even the most minimal of training would help them to distinguish the difference.

For example, that second man who was killed on Tues, by his behavior likely had some mental health issues. The police commenced firing within seconds of exiting the cruiser. No proper assessment of the situation could have been made in that amount of time.

There were two officers. Even IF that man had a knife, why couldn't the officers have stepped back a few paces (8 or 10 actually) until the situation could have been assessed? The area where the encounter was taking place was nearly empty. No citizens close enough that action could not have been taken IF he threatened anyone.

They could have talked to him (imagine that) to try to determine what was going on. There was no split-second decision necessary. Since there were two officers they could have separated and circled around him at a safe distance.

What is wrong with putting distance between yourself and a possible threat? Especially if you're holding a big-ass rifle?

That situation cried out for de-escalation techniques, not for shooting someone dead.

I'll repeat, here, something I said downthread, or maybe in another thread...

In my community there used to be an on-call crisis response team composed of clinical social workers, who accompanied police in such situations. The cost incurred in sending one of their officers to Israel to train in counter-terrorism could have been better spent training in de-escalation of conflicts.

How many terrorists are walking the streets in Ferguson, MO? How many people with mental health issues? Where is the most urgent need?

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

46. That's a great point.

How many terrorists are walking the streets in Ferguson, MO? How many people with mental health issues? Where is the most urgent need?

But, it's typical political BS. It doesn't have to make sense. Just look at where the Homeland Security money was (is?) is spent.

In the latest fiscal year, Wyoming received $38 per person while New York received less than $5.50 per person from the largest pot of federal homeland security funding. This irrational system is the result of a decision to allocate more than 75 percent of some $2.9 billion the federal government spends on homeland security without regard to threat. Instead, each state gets a guaranteed minimum portion of this money, with the rest being divided up on a per-person basis. Under this system, New York City received only 3 percent of the $2.9 billion in the three largest homeland security programs, and only 2.5 percent of 2004 homeland security-related funds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/22/opinion/give-new-york-its-fair-share-of-homeland-money.html

[treestar]

53. I think in that case they did kill him way too fast

Having seen that video.

That doesn't mean dealing with him was a walk in the park even had they done a better job of it and gotten him into mental health treatment rather than killing him.

They are more likely than other people to be dealing with criminals, insane people, and conflict situations, and that can't be easy.

[truth2power]

57. Something I just read, this afternoon -can't remember, on DU probably...

Someone said that for some people, they thrive on the adrenaline of stressful situations. That would be me.

And it's "easier" if that's the right word, than just a humdrum job.

Where I live there's an Air-Care helicopter that's dispatched to serious traffic accidents and such. I think most large cities have that sort of thing these days. Sometimes getting to the hospital immediately is the difference between life and death.

I don't know who's detailed on those things - probably a trauma nurse and an EMT? I've told my friends that if I were a nurse I'd jump at the chance to be on that helicopter. My idea of the perfect job.

Really, some people just thrive on emergency work.

[treestar]

72. At my sister's house I often end up watching COPS

And that sentiment comes out a lot. The cop will say they like the job because it is different every shift and they never know what will happen.

And in real life it likely isn't usually going to involve deadly force. People forget these shootings are an exception and not the rule.

I just don't buy the often touted DU meme that every cop is out there foaming at the mouth to shoot somebody.

[MADem]

39. That's why I am a fan of higher IQs and psychological profiling.

Some people thrive under stress, they enjoy a bit of it. Some people enjoy problem solving and (peaceful) conflict resolution--it gives them a rush along with a sense of satisfaction. Some people LIKE people. These are the folks who should be police.

[treestar]

54. That's the advances we can make as a society

Decide with more precision who we pick to serve as cops.

And not strength alone. Like the military, big hulking guys get in, no matter what their abilities and mental make up and attitude. We need to get more sophisticated than that.

[truedelphi]

55. Novato Calif. police do NOT have it that hard.

Sure, there is a lot of paperwork connected with the many top notch sports cars that get reported stolen there each year.

I can only imagine the number of callouses that result.

So when a guy living in Novato called the police at 2Am to report that a neighbor, known by everyone in the community to be mentally ill, but harmless, was standing on top of his car, twirling a broom, he thought the police would show up and easily get the man down off his car roof.

And they did get him down from the roof easily. (Easily for them that is.)

As the neighbor tearfully told the local newspaper reporter later that day, "I own a gun. If I had known the Novato police would be shooting this neighbor of mine DEAD, I could have gotten my firearm out, killed the man myself, and they could have avoided making the trip over here."

[Ino]

59. OMG

They shot a man twirling a BROOM?

He made a threatening gesture? Resisted arrest? They were in fear of their lives? WTF excuse did they have for that one?

[blackspade]

64. A very good point about surgeons.

If they kill a patient does the hospital, the family, and the lawyers all go "it's a tough job" so no problem?

Nope. There are reviews, investigations, lawsuits, etc.

But a cop has a 'tough day' and kills someone? Justified, and we are all told to move on.
Talk about a double standard.

[HubertHeaver]

28. No, A tree trimmer would

tell someone to "get off the fucking sidewalk" and then drop a tree limb on them if they don't comply.

[frylock]

43. okay, i laughed!

[Hooked_n_Looped]

70. Tough in the sense of brain power...

Lots of jobs have long hours and some even have statistically higher mortality rates.

What most other jobs don't have is the ability to, on a day to day basis, affect other people's lives in such meaningful and long term ways.

Money, time, your status as a free citizen etc.. etc... LEOs have all the ability to influence all of that.

A dozen snap decisions in one busy day can have lasting effects on hundreds of people.

That doesn't even really get into the lethal parts of the job, which are fortunately rare for most officers.

If you are doing it right, it is a "tough job"

[lunatica]

6. Guns aren't 100% either

What's the next excuse?

[Lucky Luciano]

16. True. Perhaps they will need bazookas and/or

...tactical nuclear weapons - but only as a last resort.

[lunatica]

35. I'm not so sure

Bunches of Japanese survived Hiroshima and Nagasaki you know. Maybe it they make the Sun blow up or something. Then, maybe that won't be 100% either. LOL!

[ReRe]

9. K&R

Thank you for this OP!

[EEO]

10. Wait. They let him live? America just has a different standard of professionalism.

A very, very low standard.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Indeed: our police are doing a very BAD job

Terrible, in fact.

They don't seem to be good at their jobs.

Or perhaps they are, and they defend those among them who are bad at their jobs. The police in Britain seem to be much better at their jobs than US police.

[Hutzpa]

68. It stems from laziness

where every police wants to get paid for an easy days work. This is how all this luxury that they have got started and has now gotten out of hand.

[Whiskeytide]

11. The cops even put the garbage can back...

...after it was over. How polite!

[Tom_Foolery]

12. In the US, the police take a few seconds to judge the situation...

Then they say, "Ah, hell, it's just a black guy with a mental problem. I don't have time for this shit!" BAM!!! BAM!!! BAM!!! BAM!!! BAM!!! BAM!!!

[Fred Sanders]

14. The gun is always innocent in America, any other weapon and the cops would be in jail.

[demigoddess]

13. may I also point out

that the cost cutting idiots of the world have cut down the number of cops while population has gone up. One lone cop in a car with no witness and no cameras is much more likely to do something stupid and illegal. I believe that we need to hire more cops, be more willing to fire bad ones, put more men in the field to an incident like the UK does. The UK has, I believe, a system where once you arrest a guy he is handed over to another kind of cop, whose duty it is to make sure the prisoner is treated according to the law, isn't beaten by arresting cops, sees his lawyer etc. We should emulate that here.

[Fred Sanders]

15. Correct. On arrest the detainee is turned over to a station officer in charge for processing.

[TheKentuckian]

21. More cops?!? We don't need the ones we have. Take away the stupid and failed drug war

and we'd have speed traps 30 miles long. Take away speed traps and looking for vehicle violations and 90% would be playing on their cell phones 85% of their shifts.

Cops are all about lightweight deterrent (our society's "this home is protected by ___" yard sign) and paperwork for insurance claims as far as actual practical use.

[Prophet 451]

65. Entirely true

Once the arrested party reaches the local station, he's handed over to the station officer who will process him, contact a lawyer on his behalf, etc.

[drray23]

17. proper policing by men who have what it takes

The problem is that cops in the us have this stance that their job should be about zero risks for them. So they go for the guns. I am sorry but if you are not courageous enough you should not be a cop.

We hear leo supporters in the us telling us how tough and how brave our police is and they cant help ig but have to shoot. Bs. These british policemen are what it takes to be a cop. Not a gun wielding brute like here.

[PeoViejo]

18. Mentally ill people need treatment, not a hail of Bullets.

In this case, the only casualty was an officer, who, for lack of practice, had the can of MACE pointed in the wrong direction and got himself.

Notice how they took their time and allowed the attacker to calm himself.

[truth2power]

24. In my community there used to be a mobile crisis team

made up of clinical social workers who were on-call to accompany the police in those very situations.

I wonder what happened to that program? Probably went the way of other social safety nets - that money would be better spent on blowing away women and children in the ME, I expect.

[PeoViejo]

62. The Bean-Counters figure it's cheaper to kill the Mentally Ill

..than to pay for their treatment.

The Nazis killed-off their Mentally-Challenged citizens right off the bat.

[OilBurnerBob]

22. Important point..

Neither of them was black...

(and in the US)

[treestar]

31. Right I wonder what would happen if it were a black person in the UK

Though if those police don't have guns, they'd have had to do the same thing.

[MADem]

40. Well, here's another machete attack.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22630303 News report.

Warning, video is kind of gruesome:

[treestar]

50. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lee_Rigby

Rigby was off duty and walking along Wellington Street when he was attacked.[8] Two men ran him down with a car, then used knives and a cleaver to stab and hack him to death.[9] The men dragged Rigby's body into the road and remained at the scene until police arrived. They told passers-by that they had killed a soldier to avenge the killing of Muslims by the British armed forces.[10] Unarmed police arrived at the scene nine minutes after an emergency call was received and set up a cordon. Armed police officers arrived five minutes later. The assailants, armed with a gun and cleaver, charged at the police, who fired shots that wounded them both. They were apprehended and taken to separate hospitals.[10] Both are British of Nigerian descent, raised as Christians, who converted to Islam.[11]

On 19 December 2013, both of the attackers were found guilty of Rigby's murder.[12] On 26 February 2014, they were sentenced to life imprisonment, with Adebolajo given a whole life order and Adebowale ordered to serve at least 45 years.[13] The attack was condemned by political and Muslim leaders in the United Kingdom and in the international press.[14][15]

Those assailants were already established to be murderous, but it looks like they did shoot at them and wound them rather than kill them. I wonder reading here about that being considered incompetent - I've been told on other threads you must only shoot to kill.

[justiceischeap]

23. I think prison guards should train the police on apprehension methods of dangerous

but non-lethal suspects. Prison guards, like most UK police don't have guns. They have to be smart about how they apprehend prisoners that are out of control.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. It's not the gun. Period.

In the Netherlands, the police all carry guns just like US cops do. If you scale up the fatalities from gunshot by police officers in the Netherlands to the same population level as the US, that's 58 deaths in NE, to 210 deaths in the US.

Something is wrong, and it's not specifically the presence of a firearm. It is critical we identify the actual reason why.

(On the same population scale, the UK has 13.5 police shooting fatalities/year.)

There are a host of potential factors here. Obviously the racial selective enforcement problem, which can be clearly demonstrated from stop/arrest/incarceration/sentencing/death row, regardless of crime. There are cultural issues such as our 'thin blue line'. There are training investments in the police that are made (unnecessary over-militarization) or not made (under-trained for de-escalation, etc). Investments in police staffing.

I couldn't even begin to guess all the factors that set us apart from other nations, but the singular fact that our officers carry guns, isn't the prime mover. NE isn't the only nation that demonstrates it.

I could point you to a single data point, the domestic violence rate for police officers, and say 'we got a fucking problem here, folks'.


Police Family Violence Fact Sheet

Two studies have found that at least 40% of police officer families experience domestic violence, (1, 2) in contrast to 10% of families in the general population.(3) A third study of older and more experienced officers found a rate of 24% (4), indicating that domestic violence is 2-4 times more common among police families than American families in general. A police department that has domestic violence offenders among its ranks will not effectively serve and protect victims in the community.5, 6, 7, 8 Moreover, when officers know of domestic violence committed by their colleagues and seek to protect them by covering it up, they expose the department to civil liability.7

This is an example of civilian infrastructure that is broken. This is a bridge that has long since fallen down and sunk to the bottom.

[Xithras]

29. The first video actually shows why American police DON'T use tazers against people with knives.

At 11 seconds the first officer fires a taser into the guy from only three or four feet away. The taser has no real effect on the guy, and he turns to face the officer. Luckily, this guy was suicidal and not murderous, because the guy simply turned to the officer and waved the knife in his direction for three seconds, getting within a foot or two of him with the blade. At 14 seconds a second officer fired a second taser at the guy. That second taser finally dropped the guy to the ground.

I'm not saying that the police should be shooting people, but this video does show the exact scenario that American police cite to justify not using tasers. If that first officer had been alone and facing a more aggressive knife wielder, he could have been in a lot of trouble.

[jambo101]

32. Dont cops get martial arts training?

And if so wouldnt disarming some one with a knife be a high priority in that training?
I think just shooting some one with a knife is a lazy way to solve the problem,use the training you were taught or are the cops turning into a bunch of cowards.
Case in point, a young knife wielding boy alone on a Toronto streetcar which is surrounded by cops with guns drawn, one cop gets on the back of the bus and IMO murders the kid
And after 9 shots the cops still arent convinced the kid is no longer a threat,i'm surprised they all didnt take turns unloading their guns into the corpse..absolutely pathetic..
[link:

|

[MADem]

42. Some of them don't even have to take an annual PT test or meet weight standards.

It depends on the department...

http://www.medicaldaily.com/80-police-officers-are-overweight-why-theyre-more-likely-die-heart-disease-fighting-crime-298336

80% Of Police Officers Are Overweight; Why They’re More Likely To Die From Heart Disease Than Fighting Crime


Policemen cruising in their cars eating doughnuts better change that stereotype fast if they want to stay in shape. Recently, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) found that eight out of 10, or 80 percent, of law enforcement workers in the U.S. are overweight.

“I think it’s important for all of us to keep the weight down and stay in shape — especially [with] this job,” Assistant Chief Jeff Bryan of the Garland Police Department in Texas, told CBS Dallas/Fort Worth. “The stress that we incur at this job… this is a great way to relieve the stress and to keep the blood pressure down.” Bryan added that it’s important for police officers to stay fit because “[w]hen you’re in a life or death struggle, you’ve got to win that fight.”

Research in the past has found that law enforcement personnel were 25 times more likely to die from weight-related disorders, like cardiovascular disease, than they were from actually fighting crime or getting into scuffles with criminals. But if police officers have to be fit in the beginning to get hired, why aren’t they maintaining their health if the job demands physical fitness? On a Reddit discussion thread titled ELI5 (Explain Like I’m 5), a user wondered why it was possible for police officers to be fat. User quack_quack_moo responded: “To get a job they have to pass a fitness test; depending on what agency they work for they might not have to take that test ever again after getting hired.”

Most police officers spend their days sitting in their cars or at desks, but they must be prepared for sudden bursts of physical effort. Would you feel safe knowing that the majority of American police officers would probably get winded during a chase? Some police departments are trying to change that mentality, as well as the stereotype that police officers eat lots of doughnuts. Some departments have on-site gyms and are trying to encourage their members to work out more. During the past few years, as obesity rates have climbed, some police departments were also firing police officers for weighing too much. .....

[Ino]

60. I was just going to comment...

That martial arts training would cut into their doughnut breaks!

[MADem]

69. Television has created this fiction that police are either young, fit and idealistic, or older,

craggy, world-weary and wise. In truth they look more like Professor Klump than Professor Indiana Jones.

[MADem]

37. What's up with "videographer number 2?"

What a jerk--he missed the ONE MOST IMPORTANT part, going back and forth, looking for a better view. Less is more!

I guess it was too hard to just move all those beer bottles, or raise up that set up of wooden blinds!

The scene switches from the machete guy pacing, to a view of a crappy power strip, then to a view of the cops surrounding the guy and throwing their shields in a pile.

Did they tase the guy? I'm guessing, based on the article/link, that's what they did.

I don't understand why they don't use a beanbag more often--those things HURT but they don't kill.

[snooper2]

41. A lasso would be easier wouldn't it?

[steve2470]

44. The youtube comments on video #2 show the problem

The word "pussies" comes up a lot, in reference to the UK cops. Let's just ignore the fact that the mentally ill man is still alive and now getting treatment. Yea, let's just shoot the guy quickly and send him off to the morgue, fuck treatment !

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

47. Yep. US males, in particular, are socialized to think that way. It will be a huge job to

change that mindset. The will to improve and strong leadership--not to mention funding--is needed develop police forces that are made up of well-trained, highly-paid, mentally stable personnel.

[Prophet 451]

66. Hadn't noticed that

I thought our coppers acted almost exactly as they should have done in both videos.

[Vattel]

48. Not a fair comparison.

The UK is a civilized nation.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

49. Our cops kill you for refusal to obey....

You know,...because the others might get uppity.

It's also why we leave their dead body in the street to rot for hours.

It leaves a message. Obey or die.

[Logical]

51. US Cops doe not want ANY RISK but still want high pay and pension! Idiots. nt

[Chan790]

56. To be fair...

who doesn't want high-pay and a pension? I mean, really...who hears "high-pay and pension" and says "Eh. Not for me. No thanks."

I'm not talking specifically about police jobs, but in general...nobody doesn't want those things.

[blackspade]

63. Interesting difference.

That second video was almost unwatchable though. That was some awful camera work.

[Cha]

67. That actually took time and courage.. something the police in Ferguson and

St Louis aren't willing to spend.

Bravo the police in the UK.

Thanks to Ben Cohen at the daily banter and Courtesy Flush.